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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 03:23 AM
I think there is going to be a flyable p-38 in the addon. I was wondering, how much different is it to fly a two engined aircraft? How do you work the two throttles?

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 03:23 AM
I think there is going to be a flyable p-38 in the addon. I was wondering, how much different is it to fly a two engined aircraft? How do you work the two throttles?

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 03:41 AM
same way you do the he-111 which is already flyable in the game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 03:43 AM
True but the P-38 is a fighter, not a bomber therefore it will fly quite a bit differently I expect. The ever so talented Gibbage is working on one for FB right now along with some very promising projects.

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Message Edited on 07/29/0307:44PM by MackZ

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 03:45 AM
Basically you select engines, so for instance if you wanted to lower the RPM on engine #2, then you would select engine #2, and then lower the throttle. You can also just select the engines on the right side, left side, or select all. Under comple engine management (I believe), you have to start each engine individually.

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 03:47 AM
You can lock the throttles together so you dont have to screw with two of them all the time. Of course if one gets hit you can shut it down and feather the prop. Its not bad once you get used to it.

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for there you have been and there you long to return.
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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 03:52 AM
the horrors of asymetric flight are not really modelled that realistically in Fb so i would not panic

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 04:44 AM
Worst case scenario, your engine goes off at takeoff, you go up, roll over, then down.

Managing the engines won't be too hard, what will be hard is managing the airplane (assuming the FM is like what current US planes have)!



Message Edited on 07/30/0303:48AM by Korolov

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 04:50 AM
I would have to adjust my stick profile a bit to accomodate engine #2.... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 06:02 AM
The P-38 was actually a rather smooth plane to fly on one engine. It had a rudder dial that you could adjust if an engine went out that would give enough rudder correction so you wouldn't have to stand on the pedals to correct.

Also, the P-38s props gave the plane no torque problems. You could turn either way with no torque pull.

All your guns are in a close bunch, great grouping.

The early P-38s had compressability problems, which was taken care of by adding dive flaps and aileron boost.

Early P-38s were not the best turners, and 109s with combat flaps could stay inside them all day. Later models with the aileron boost turned better.

Only crappy thing about the p-38 won't be modeled. It was freaking COLD in those cockpits. Most planes had heat exhausts that could be opened up in the cockpit, the P-38 pilot didn't. There are stories on pilots wearing many layers of gloves, and still having fingers too cold to flip switches and push buttons.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 07:07 AM
Time for a lesson from a P-38 expert.


Hedus wrote:
- The P-38 was actually a rather smooth plane to fly
- on one engine. It had a rudder dial that you could
- adjust if an engine went out that would give enough
- rudder correction so you wouldn't have to stand on
- the pedals to correct.

Correct.

- Also, the P-38s props gave the plane no torque
- problems. You could turn either way with no torque
- pull.

Correct.

- All your guns are in a close bunch, great grouping.

Correct.

- The early P-38s had compressability problems, which
- was taken care of by adding dive flaps and aileron
- boost.

Correct

- Early P-38s were not the best turners, and 109s with
- combat flaps could stay inside them all day. Later
- models with the aileron boost turned better.

Wrong. Aileron boost did nothing to help the turn. Only roll rate. The dive breaks did help for a quick boost in nose pitch when you needed to get your guns on the enemy. Bong and McGuire both got most of there kills flying non-boosted P-38's, and McGuire proved without a doubt he could out turn any Jap aircraft, including Zero's. Bong was more for B&Z, but McGuire liked a more sporting kill. He would slow down and enguage his enemy in a slow turn fight using combat flaps and good engine management. I dont think a 109 can out turn a Zero.

- Only crappy thing about the p-38 won't be modeled.
- It was freaking COLD in those cockpits. Most planes
- had heat exhausts that could be opened up in the
- cockpit, the P-38 pilot didn't. There are stories
- on pilots wearing many layers of gloves, and still
- having fingers too cold to flip switches and push
- buttons.
-

Not all models. The J and L versions had two heaters, one on each engine. Also, it would be a bad idea for a pilot to suck on exhaust. I dont know were you get that, but carbon monixied would have claimed more pilots then the Luftwaffa if they did that. They passed fresh outside air along the hot engine headers and into the cockpit. Also, the engine itself put out a lot of heat. The later P-38 models had a tube you can see on top of the turbo-super that passed down along the top of the exaust to the turbine of the turbo. Then that air was passed to the cockpit. Not only is this for 1 engine, but for BOTH!

Most of the stories of cold cockpits were from the British version of the P-38 that had no turbo's to feed heat off of.

Gib



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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 12:57 PM
I agree a P-38 would be sweet to fly in FB. All that firepower and a cannon too.

fluke39
07-30-2003, 03:24 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- Hedus wrote:
-- Also, the P-38s props gave the plane no torque
-- problems. You could turn either way with no torque
-- pull.

-Correct

IIRC from quite early on they were one of the few 2 engined to have "Handed" props ( to overcome 'buffeting or something) -hence the reason there is no issue with torque


-- Early P-38s were not the best turners, and 109s with
-- combat flaps could stay inside them all day. Later
-- models with the aileron boost turned better.
-
- Wrong. Aileron boost did nothing to help the turn.
- Only roll rate. The dive breaks did help for a
- quick boost in nose pitch when you needed to get
- your guns on the enemy. Bong and McGuire both got
- most of there kills flying non-boosted P-38's, and
- McGuire proved without a doubt he could out turn any
- Jap aircraft, including Zero's. Bong was more for
- B&Z, but McGuire liked a more sporting kill. He
- would slow down and enguage his enemy in a slow turn
- fight using combat flaps and good engine management.
- I dont think a 109 can out turn a Zero.

i remember hearing a few times that an "experienced" pilot would be able to pull off very good turns by using " differential" throttling of the engines (quite likely what you mean by "good engine management")
do you think this will be modelled in FB and if it is do you think it will be too hard for the average FB pilot to perform ?

p.s what stage are you at with the P38 gib?

cheers


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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 03:33 PM
I hope that the FMs become more realistic in the patched version of FB, torque effects ect. I am really looking forward to flying the lightning. I read an account by a lighting veteran of ww2:

"The p-38 had a combat tactic which was very effective against german fighters: If the plane was close behind in a left turn, we would chop right throttle, and kick full right rudder along with right aileron. It seemed to snap up and over to the right, and although I am certain I never approached a spin, I don't know to this day what maneuver I executed. However, the german plane could not follow, which was the important thing. If he was in a right bank do the opposite."

Lt. Col Royal D. Frey USAF Ret.

Hope we'll be able to do tricks like that when the lightning comes out!!

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XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 03:41 AM
Gibbage, my words were taken straight from General Robin Olds. He spoke at our Warbirds con, and that is what he said. He also said the late model P-38s were still pretty damn cold.

You'll understand if I consider him the "expert".

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 08:36 AM
Yes. I am thinking they did not have any insilation on the heat pipes. I guess they lost a lot of the cold on the long trip to the cockpit. But in a book I have, it says the J and L fixed the cabin heat issue. I myself would trust a pilots accounts more then some book. As for the boostd alarons, they are boosted ALARONS. It has no function what so ever on turn, just roll. Now it it had a boosted elivator, now your talking! But from what I remember, the pilots never had really bad elivator response, just roll. With the boost, it could out roll a FW-190 at high combat speeds. Thats impressive for a twin!

Gib

Hedus wrote:
- Gibbage, my words were taken straight from General
- Robin Olds. He spoke at our Warbirds con, and that
- is what he said. He also said the late model P-38s
- were still pretty damn cold.
-
- You'll understand if I consider him the "expert".
-
-



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XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 08:58 AM
the only plane I miss at the russian front iss....

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XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 10:11 AM
I also want the Bf-110 and the Me-410/210 flyable. But I am not the one doing it.

Gib

kubanloewe wrote:
- the only plane I miss at the russian front iss....
-
<img
- src="http://mitglied.lycos.de/kubanskiloewe/110mis
- sing.jpg">
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



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XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 02:08 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:
-- Early P-38s were not the best turners, and 109s with
-- combat flaps could stay inside them all day. Later
-- models with the aileron boost turned better.
-
- Wrong. Aileron boost did nothing to help the turn.
- Only roll rate. The dive breaks did help for a
- quick boost in nose pitch when you needed to get
- your guns on the enemy. Bong and McGuire both got
- most of there kills flying non-boosted P-38's, and
- McGuire proved without a doubt he could out turn any
- Jap aircraft, including Zero's. Bong was more for
- B&Z, but McGuire liked a more sporting kill. He
- would slow down and enguage his enemy in a slow turn
- fight using combat flaps and good engine management.
- I dont think a 109 can out turn a Zero.

My source says the lightining could turn with any luftwaffe plane with ease, but he said the problem was bank. The luftwaffe could evade a p-38 by simply opposite bank, and turn and dive away. By the time the lightning banked opposite and pursued, the plane would be out of sight.

He also said that the plane was friggin cold! Around -55 deg C. Layers of gloves and to flip a circuit breaker required intense effort, let alone fly. He was referring to all marks of lightning. He flew them all but in europe on bomber escort he flew the L. That is why the plane did not fare well in europe. It flourished in the Med and Pacific where there were never enough lightings to go around.


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XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 02:53 PM
Would love to see some 8th and 15th Airforce P38's a/c skins. Not to mention the raft of Bong and Mcguire P38's that would crop up.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 04:23 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- Time for a lesson from a P-38 expert.
-
-
-
- Most of the stories of cold cockpits were from the
- British version of the P-38 that had no turbo's to
- feed heat off of.
-
- Gib

Also a note on the early P-38's sent to England (as well as ordered by France): The 322-B and 322-F did not have counter rotating props. They both spun the same direction. IIRC this was to maintin compatibility with the P-40 engine.

These planes were dubbed the Lightning I and they performed so poorly that remaining planes delivery was refused by England.

That's all...

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 04:52 PM
No P-38 was ever a turnfighter. This "differential" throttle helping turn rate is just a myth. Different throttle setting on twins affects only yaw (like rudder) and it has no effect on pitch. P-38 turned better than Mustang, it was equal with Dora and slightly less good than K4. Let's not forget that P-38 entered in USAAF service in '42. By that time it was outperformed by all 109 and 190 in any performance characteristic. It's true that 190A grew heavier and by '44 it could be outturned by P-38, but it surpassed P-38 in any other characteristic. (like max speed, like climb, accelereration, dive and so on).

Let's not forget that P-38 had severe dive limitations due to compressibility. It had a high CLmax wing like USN planes, which lowered the stall speed (for such a high wing loaded airplane) but caused bad dive characteristic (like Corsair and Hellcat). Don't forget that most dive bombers could outdive P-38/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fortunatelly for P-38, FB does not model compressibility in any way (you could easily go supersonic in dive in almost all late prop planes) or the difficulties of flying twins with one engine lost, so it will fare pretty well, probably better than P-47.



Message Edited on 07/31/0310:53AM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 04:55 PM
Wery carefully!!

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 04:59 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- Time for a lesson from a P-38 expert.


we are still waiting. or are you the "expert " ?


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Message Edited on 07/31/0304:03PM by Boandlgramer

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:01 PM
What a surprise, Huck shows up to let us know that the P38 was really not very good at anything, just like every other plane made by the US.


Huckebein_FW wrote:
- No P-38 was ever a turnfighter. This "differential"
- throttle helping turn rate is just a myth. Different
- throttle setting on twins affects only yaw (like
- rudder) and it has no effect on pitch. P-38 turned
- better than Mustang, it was equal with Dora and
- slightly less good than K4. Let's not forget that
- P-38 entered in USAAF service in '42. By that time
- it was outperformed by all 109 and 190 in any
- performance characteristic. It's true that 190A grew
- heavier and by '44 it could be outturned by P-38,
- but it surpassed P-38 in any other characteristic.
- (like max speed, like climb, accelereration, dive
- and so on).
-
- Let's not forget that P-38 had severe dive
- limitations due to compressibility. It had a high
- CLmax wing like USN planes, which lowered the stall
- speed (for such a high wing loaded airplane) but
- caused bad dive characteristic (like Corsair and
- Hellcat). Don't forget that most dive bombers could
- outdive P-38/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
- Fortunatelly for P-38, FB does not model
- compressibility in any way (you could easily go
- supersonic in dive in almost all late prop planes)
- or the difficulties of flying twins with one engine
- lost, so it will fare pretty well, probably better
- than P-47.
-
-
-
- Message Edited on 07/31/03 10:53AM by
- Huckebein_FW



----------------------------------------
Whatever I've done, I've been staring down the barrel of a gun.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:12 PM
EnjoyTheSilence wrote:
- What a surprise, Huck shows up to let us know that
- the P38 was really not very good at anything, just
- like every other plane made by the US.


I think you misunderstood my post. US ww2 fighters were good in different roles, but they were never competitive dogfighters. So don't put your hopes too high with either P-38, P-51 or P-63.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:23 PM
What a complement. American fighters were not competitive. Yet American Pilots and squadrons racked up an impressive tally of enemy a/c destroyed......this could only mean they were generally very good fliers.......and no I am not American.



Huckebein_FW wrote:
- EnjoyTheSilence wrote:
-- What a surprise, Huck shows up to let us know that
-- the P38 was really not very good at anything, just
-- like every other plane made by the US.
-
-
- I think you misunderstood my post. US ww2 fighters
- were good in different roles, but they were never
- competitive dogfighters. So don't put your hopes too
- high with either P-38, P-51 or P-63.
-
-

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:24 PM
What a complement. American fighters were not competitive. Yet American Pilots and squadrons racked up an impressive tally of enemy a/c destroyed......this could only mean they were generally very good fliers.......and no I am not American.



-

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:28 PM
dragonhart38 wrote:
- What a complement. American fighters were not
- competitive. Yet American Pilots and squadrons
- racked up an impressive tally of enemy a/c
- destroyed......this could only mean they were
- generally very good fliers.......and no I am not
- American.


Yes, they were good fighter pilots.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:42 PM
no matter what... She sure is beautiful!!

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:53 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- No P-38 was ever a turnfighter.

Lucky for us, turn fighting in FB is a sure way to get killed! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

- performance characteristic. It's true that 190A grew
- heavier and by '44 it could be outturned by P-38,
- but it surpassed P-38 in any other characteristic.
- (like max speed, like climb, accelereration, dive
- and so on).

You sure about this? My numbers say that the P-38L could climb to 6,100m in 7 minutes; various other sources on the net agree. It won't be winning any roll contests with the Fw-190, but I find it hard to believe that the Fw-190, especially the later A-8, could out climb it. I could see the earlier A-4 and A-5 models outclimbing the various F models though. And of course that 109 will outclimb anything!

- Fortunatelly for P-38, FB does not model
- compressibility in any way (you could easily go
- supersonic in dive in almost all late prop planes)

Have you tried the P-47 yet? At high speeds, it gets VERY stiff. The Yak3 and La7 have a 600-700kph breakup speed in the game.

- or the difficulties of flying twins with one engine
- lost, so it will fare pretty well, probably better
- than P-47.

The 262 will be a good training platform for this - and single engine flight isn't easy on it either. Also, if you're willing, try the AI Pe-2 and Pe-3 series - one engine out on them, in clean configuration, and it becomes very hard to stay aloft.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:03 PM
*Cherry*

Flyable P-38 would be great.


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XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:22 PM
Gib, sorry, just read it, didn't mean to say "exhaust", of course, because they would indeed die. Hell, I was tired. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Olds told us alot about his time in P-38s, and one story told about how he lined up on a 109 that didn't know he was there, and he ran out of gas. He then shot it down, switched tanks, and escaped out. How much of that is b.s., I don't know, but it was a good story.


Huck, you need to discern between boom and zoom and turn and burn when you say "american planes can't dogfight". Its all dogfighting. Most american planes were good at B-n-Z, but they also had some serious knife fighting talent. If you also notice, t-n-b was an early war thinking, and as things went on, the realization that b-n-z fighters would rule the roost, cause they fought on their own terms. Evenn with that, the Hellcats were supposedly able to turn with Spitfires for a turn or two.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:49 PM
Korolov wrote:
- You sure about this? My numbers say that the P-38L
- could climb to 6,100m in 7 minutes; various other
- sources on the net agree. It won't be winning any
- roll contests with the Fw-190, but I find it hard to
- believe that the Fw-190, especially the later A-8,
- could out climb it. I could see the earlier A-4 and
- A-5 models outclimbing the various F models though.
- And of course that 109 will outclimb anything!


You're right, P-38 will most probably outclimb A8 at altitude, since it had turbosupercharged inline engines, but at sea level A8 got 3500fpm initial climb. I know that many sources credit P38J&L with slightly over 3500fpm but that's exagerated. If you look at the factors that affect climb you'll see that A8 is better in all of them: better power loading, better (excess thrust)/weight ratio and higher climb speed. Also that time to altitude is certainly wrong, even AHT gives 12.5min to 20000ft for P38J&L - combat power setting.



- Have you tried the P-47 yet? At high speeds, it gets
- VERY stiff. The Yak3 and La7 have a 600-700kph
- breakup speed in the game.

Stiffness of controls is caused by aerodynamic pressure not by compressibility. The absence of terminal dive speed clearly indicates that wave drag is not simulated.



-- or the difficulties of flying twins with one engine
-- lost, so it will fare pretty well, probably better
-- than P-47.
-
- The 262 will be a good training platform for this -
- and single engine flight isn't easy on it either.
- Also, if you're willing, try the AI Pe-2 and Pe-3
- series - one engine out on them, in clean
- configuration, and it becomes very hard to stay
- aloft.

Fly the He-111 with a single engine and tell me if you notice something except the loss of speed - no yaw no nothing. There is no need to feather the props in FB.





Message Edited on 07/31/0311:47PM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 07:17 PM
Hedus wrote:
-
- Huck, you need to discern between boom and zoom and
- turn and burn when you say "american planes can't
- dogfight". Its all dogfighting. Most american
- planes were good at B-n-Z, but they also had some
- serious knife fighting talent. If you also notice,
- t-n-b was an early war thinking, and as things went
- on, the realization that b-n-z fighters would rule
- the roost, cause they fought on their own terms.
- Evenn with that, the Hellcats were supposedly able
- to turn with Spitfires for a turn or two.


Both angle fighters and energy fighters can dogfight, and I think you all agree that american escort fighters were not turnfighters.
But were they capable energy fighters? You can answer this question very easily: from two fighters with similar max speed and critical Mach number, the best energy fighter is the one with better power loading. Since none of the American escort fighters did not enjoy a good power loading that means that they were restricted to single passes at high speeds undetected by enemy (if they missed they could not repeat the maneuver, unless the enemy was very slow - this tactic is very predictable).
So they were strictly B&Zers not energy fighters, so not real dogfighters.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 07:50 PM
cool!

<img src="
" target=_blank>http://image.photoloft.com/opx-bin/OpxFIDISA.dll?s=cano&src=/Photoloft/Asset21/2003/07/31/10931/10931767_0_6360.fpx,0,0,1,1,512,279,FFFFFF"> (http://image.photoloft.com/opx-bin/OpxFIDISA.dll?s=cano&src=/Photoloft/Asset21/2003/07/31/10931/10931767_0_6360.fpx,0,0,1,1,512,279,FFFFFF)

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 10:38 PM
So Huck, if American escort fighters shoot you down, it doesn't really count? This isn't gymnastics or synchronized swimming, pal. If you make good use of the tools you have and you win, you win. What you just described sounds a lot like the tactics of Erich Hartmann, patron saint of the Luftwhiners. I guess he wasn't much of a dogfighter, so those 352 kills don't count for lack of artistic merit.

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" - LCOL Don Blakeslee, CO, 4th FG, March, 1944

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 10:52 PM
Typical Huck post. Lots of outragious claims and no referance. Yes the throttle DID help roll. Cutting back on one engine and boosting the other gave the aircraft torq and a direction the pilot chose. With that, he could roll quickly.

Dives were only a problem in high alt dives. The P-38's were used very well as a dive bomber in the Pacific.

The later P-38 J and L's could out roll and turn inside any Luftwaffa aircraft in 1944.

P-38's had NO problem WHAT SO EVER flying on 1 engine. They even had practice in doing combat manuvers in pilot training with 1 engine. The instructor would order his students to cut one engine, and fallow him through a series of manuvers to prove to the pilots it could be done. These manuvers included multiple loops, rolls snap turning into the dead engine and such.

These FACTS show that you know nothing what so ever about the P-38, and only post to troll or put down US aircraft. Again, your typical post.

Lets see some proof of your claims little man. Also, read up on this sight. It may be interesting.

http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38.html

Gib

Huckebein_FW wrote:
- No P-38 was ever a turnfighter. This "differential"
- throttle helping turn rate is just a myth. Different
- throttle setting on twins affects only yaw (like
- rudder) and it has no effect on pitch. P-38 turned
- better than Mustang, it was equal with Dora and
- slightly less good than K4. Let's not forget that
- P-38 entered in USAAF service in '42. By that time
- it was outperformed by all 109 and 190 in any
- performance characteristic. It's true that 190A grew
- heavier and by '44 it could be outturned by P-38,
- but it surpassed P-38 in any other characteristic.
- (like max speed, like climb, accelereration, dive
- and so on).
-
- Let's not forget that P-38 had severe dive
- limitations due to compressibility. It had a high
- CLmax wing like USN planes, which lowered the stall
- speed (for such a high wing loaded airplane) but
- caused bad dive characteristic (like Corsair and
- Hellcat). Don't forget that most dive bombers could
- outdive P-38/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
- Fortunatelly for P-38, FB does not model
- compressibility in any way (you could easily go
- supersonic in dive in almost all late prop planes)
- or the difficulties of flying twins with one engine
- lost, so it will fare pretty well, probably better
- than P-47.
-
-
-
- Message Edited on 07/31/03 10:53AM by
- Huckebein_FW





Message Edited on 07/31/0301:56PM by Gibbage1

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 10:54 PM
Yea, Hartman wasn't a good dogfighter according to the logic I'm hearing..lol.

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 04:33 AM
No point arguing with Huck - he appears to be quite stubborn.

I'll be happy to trade my Fw-190 in now for a P-38. I'll be even more happy when they neuter the Bf-109 moreso in the upcoming patch! SUFFAH you luftwaffles! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

P.S. No luftwaffles were hurt in the making of this post.

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 04:49 AM
MediaXS_361st wrote:
- Yea, Hartman wasn't a good dogfighter according to
- the logic I'm hearing..lol.
-
-

not only that he had this unsportsmanly advantage by flying all those missions and getting lots of experience

if the LW had played fair they would have limited their pilots to 25 mission tours so they did not get an unfair advantage over the opposition http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif





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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 06:00 AM
Gibagge,

i hope you allow me , to post some parts of your excellent statement in the german forum.
they like fun there , ehmmm i mean facts .


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 06:36 AM
Just wondering what parts. Also, are you sarcastic? If your think im kidding about the P-38 being a great fighter, thats your openion. But in the proper hands, it could dance with any Luftwaffa fighter. Also, if you wish to learn more, read the web page I posted above. I really love the P-38, but unlike Huck, I am open to proof. So far nobody has posted any.

Gib

Boandlgramer wrote:
- Gibagge,
-
- i hope you allow me , to post some parts of your
- excellent statement in the german forum.
- they like fun there , ehmmm i mean facts .
-
-
-


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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 07:59 AM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- Just wondering what parts. Also, are you sarcastic?
- If your think im kidding about the P-38 being a
- great fighter, thats your openion. But in the
- proper hands, it could dance with any Luftwaffa
- fighter. Also, if you wish to learn more, read the
- web page I posted above. I really love the P-38,
- but unlike Huck, I am open to proof. So far nobody
- has posted any.


Dear Gibbage,

why wouldn't you be so kind and post that proof yourself. Please no heroic stories of lost encounters on the Pacific, rather some test data charts etc. You have been claming that it outturns:
a) all german aircraft
b) Zero
c) Yak-3

Bullsh!t floats only in small amounts.

P-38 performed well in some cases and less well in others. It had some merits and some serious shortcomings.

Doesn't it get into your thick skull that with that powerloading and with that wingloading it was not:

a) a good climber (more like average)
b) a good turner

There is a relationship with point a) and b) called excessive horsepowers. For example without bothering more with a complex search I read it from Wagner's book about Kurt Tank (obviously outrageously glorifying FW and downgrading anything from the opponents).

P-38 F:
wingloading 237.31 kg/m^2
weight to power 3.71 kg/kW
climb 14.5 m/s (measured from climb to 3000 m)

Fw-190 A-3:
wingloading 212.84 kg/m^2
weight to power 3.12 kg/kw
climb 15 m/s

Fw-190 A-8/R-2:
wingloading 237.7 kg/m^2
weight to power 3.42 kg/kw
climb 13 m/s

So looking at this, it has a turning and climbing performance in FW class. You can then try to ueberize P-38J or L.

P-38J using a quick web search:
2*1600 HP and 21600 lbs 328 sq.ft wing
Then another taking it from warbirds it seems:
2*1450 HP and 17400 lbs 30.5 sq m wing

We have 331 kg/m^2 or 258 kg/m^2 wingloading and
4.16 kg/kW or 3.76 kg/kW

How warbirds imagines a zerolike turnperformance is beyound me.

Now before you come with that "bubububut it hahahahad thethethethe Fofofoffowler flaps". Try to imagine that other fighters had highlift devices as well, most of them did not use them. Why? because flaps create drag, first of all already deploying them increases profile drag. (20? about doubles the profile drag) This is only the beginning then you start employing the available higher lift factor and you get to the induced drag. Saying you have maximum lift factor of 1.4 in clean configuration and 2 with flaps. Pulling the maximum 2 brings you a 2 times higher drag than with 1.4. Now put this together 2 times higher profile drag two times higher induced drag. That's a lot of drag and P-38 for example does not enjoy excessive horsepower to compensate that. These figures were just an example but about in the right order.

P-38 might have had a good instantenous turn performance (might), but it would have wasted its E in no time (again no power to compensate). It did not have a good sustained turning performance (please don't bother with those WB charts). I am truly sorry to say it does not outturn:

a) all german aircraft
b) Zero
c) Yak-3

It is cool looking though but you should not get your hopes too high. You may then bash Oleg for doing P-thisorthat injustice just like the luftwhiners b!tch about FWs but then you'd better prepare to get the figures right and even with that the changes are slim...

Good luck though

-------------------------------------
In these locked and shackled neighbourhoods, bridge and tunnel diplomats.
See the golden ghetto's creeper.
Crazy flags from history, songs for the White House gangsters, guns for hellgate railway sleepers.
But there's a man who makes no enemies, a body never breathless, no ambition ever hopeless.
So how stands the city on this winter's night?
The city on the hill or so they said.
The snow is falling down around the armoury.
The city's closing in around my head.

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 09:26 AM
Again, read the page I posted above. You can do math and numbers all day long, but they will never tell you how well an aircraft will fly. Also your figures are not including combat flaps. The flaps were VERY efficiant on the P-38. They increased the wing area without adding any drag. They helped the P-38 turn significantly tighter.

Gib

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 10:33 AM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- Again, read the page I posted above. You can do
- math and numbers all day long, but they will never
- tell you how well an aircraft will fly. Also your
- figures are not including combat flaps. The flaps
- were VERY efficiant on the P-38. They increased the
- wing area without adding any drag. They helped the
- P-38 turn significantly tighter.
-
- Gib

Maths won't help? For your information they used also some maths in the design of P-38. It's nice of you to tell that aeronautical engineering is in vain.

They increased wing area without adding any drag? Dear Gibbage why didn't they build those magnificent dragless flaps already on the assembly line and spared that heavy flap mechanism?

You will not be able to boast the wingloading of P-38 away, you will also not be able to increase the power to weight ratio never mind how much you make noise. In this area P-38 is so significantly inferior to the top notch fighters that there is no antigravity magic to cope with that.

Zero for example 950 HP, 238 sq ft wing and 950 HP had 121 kg/m^2 wingloading and 3.73 kg/kW

Yak-3 is about 180 kg/m^2 and 2.9 kg/kW

That being so Zero has HALF of the wing loading of P-38. It has to fly HALF of the lift factor of P-38 in all manouvers in all speeds. It is flying with FOUR times lower induced drag. It does not need any flaps to fly circles around P-38. Do you realize that you don't go stall fighting Zero with P-38 on those grounds?

Think about this, just think, Fowler flaps were not any kind of great secret. Don't you think that others might have taken this solution if it was such a brilliant idea?

P-47 had Fowler flaps too whom did it outturn?
Hell it has even similar wingloading and power loading...
Who's first in ORR to start a discussion "BUG!!!!P-47 does not outturn Yak-3"

Hopefully most of the kids around here take your expertise with the seriosity it deserves.

However, nothing against P-38, I am happier to see that in the game than quite many other add-ons!

-------------------------------------
In these locked and shackled neighbourhoods, bridge and tunnel diplomats.
See the golden ghetto's creeper.
Crazy flags from history, songs for the White House gangsters, guns for hellgate railway sleepers.
But there's a man who makes no enemies, a body never breathless, no ambition ever hopeless.
So how stands the city on this winter's night?
The city on the hill or so they said.
The snow is falling down around the armoury.
The city's closing in around my head.

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 12:45 PM
Look. Most of the US's top 5 aces flew P-38's. That has to account for something, dont it? It was commonly known that the #2 ace, McGuire loved to turn fight in his P-38's and most of his kills were Zero's and other nimble fighters. Many of his quad mates (not him) recall how he would slow down and enguage the enemy on a level playing field. This cocky attitude lead to his death when he tried to turn fight without dropping his fuel tanks. Do you really think McGuire could have scored 38 kills if the P-38 was not a capable fighter?

I love the P-38 for many reasons. #1, its looks. #2, its innovation, #3, it was a big and heavy twin engine fighter that could dance with the single's.

Remember, math means nothing when your bring shot at. Being able to shoot back is the most important factor of war.

Gib

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 12:50 PM
and don't forget


pre P51D


absolutely unmatchable range

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 01:52 PM
Look about hundred or so top scoring aces of the _world_ anybody with more than 100 kills or so flew with Zero, Bf-109 or Fw-190. That has to account for something, doesn't it? Helmut Lipfert with 203 kills loved to turn with Bf-109 he was so cocky that he engaged Yak-3s (5 kills) and La-7 (4 kills) in turn fights. Bf-109 has to turn better than Yak-3 or La-7, screw the maths?

Hans-Joachim Marseille (158 kills) now that guy really loved to turn and burn. Do you want to have a list of all aircraft that Bf outturns? The proof is there /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I think I rather stick to maths. The simulator codes and computers also work with maths not eye-wittness stories. If you are not able to show it with numbers your changes are zero (and with this I don't mean Tero like turning perf,)

I quite share all three points that you mention but it does not make P-38 a turn fighter nor does a tear-shedding heroic story of McGuire...

Just don't get your and your fans' expectations too high...

-------------------------------------
In these locked and shackled neighbourhoods, bridge and tunnel diplomats.
See the golden ghetto's creeper.
Crazy flags from history, songs for the White House gangsters, guns for hellgate railway sleepers.
But there's a man who makes no enemies, a body never breathless, no ambition ever hopeless.
So how stands the city on this winter's night?
The city on the hill or so they said.
The snow is falling down around the armoury.
The city's closing in around my head.

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 02:46 PM
Korolov I guesss you russkies are afraid of actually needing ability instead of flying olegs wonder wagons. overmodelled vvs fighters

http://utenti.lycos.it/AEREOFAN/images/saetta.jpg

caccia buon!

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_henry_blake.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>



Message Edited on 08/01/0308:49AM by mike_espo

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 02:52 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- Look. Most of the US's top 5 aces flew P-38's.
- That has to account for something, dont it? It was
- commonly known that the #2 ace, McGuire loved to
- turn fight in his P-38's and most of his kills were
- Zero's and other nimble fighters. Many of his quad
- mates (not him) recall how he would slow down and
- enguage the enemy on a level playing field. This
- cocky attitude lead to his death when he tried to
- turn fight without dropping his fuel tanks. Do you
- really think McGuire could have scored 38 kills if
- the P-38 was not a capable fighter?

Bravo Gibbage1. Could'nt have said it better myself!!!!

Ciao

http://utenti.lycos.it/AEREOFAN/images/saetta.jpg

caccia buon!

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_henry_blake.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 09:57 PM
OK. How long was the US in the war compaired to Germany, and how many aircraft were really against us? The US never had SWARMS of bombers to shoot down, and hords of fighters attacking us. Pilots that racked up hundreds of kills HAD to or die. Also, we had a lot more pilots and aircraft flying against a few. Also, the P-38 had 8 instant aces. Thats were a pilot gets his first, and 5 kill in the same flight. Considering how few targets there were available, thats quite impressive.

Also note. The P-38 was made as a high altitude bomber intercepter. It was designed 100% for this roll, not a fighter. The fact that it turned out to be such a great fighter is remarkable to say the least.

I dont think the P-38 was the best fighter in the world. I think it was an extreamly remarkable fighter. But I do think it was the best twin engine fighter in the world. Care to argue that point?

Gib

Ugly_Kid wrote:
- Look about hundred or so top scoring aces of the
- _world_ anybody with more than 100 kills or so flew
- with Zero, Bf-109 or Fw-190. That has to account for
- something, doesn't it? Helmut Lipfert with 203 kills
- loved to turn with Bf-109 he was so cocky that he
- engaged Yak-3s (5 kills) and La-7 (4 kills) in turn
- fights. Bf-109 has to turn better than Yak-3 or
- La-7, screw the maths?
-
- Hans-Joachim Marseille (158 kills) now that guy
- really loved to turn and burn. Do you want to have a
- list of all aircraft that Bf outturns? The proof is
- there /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- I think I rather stick to maths. The simulator codes
- and computers also work with maths not eye-wittness
- stories. If you are not able to show it with numbers
- your changes are zero (and with this I don't mean
- Tero like turning perf,)
-
- I quite share all three points that you mention but
- it does not make P-38 a turn fighter nor does a
- tear-shedding heroic story of McGuire...
-
- Just don't get your and your fans' expectations too
- high...
-
--------------------------------------
- In these locked and shackled neighbourhoods, bridge
- and tunnel diplomats.
- See the golden ghetto's creeper.
- Crazy flags from history, songs for the White House
- gangsters, guns for hellgate railway sleepers.
- But there's a man who makes no enemies, a body never
- breathless, no ambition ever hopeless.
- So how stands the city on this winter's night?
- The city on the hill or so they said.
- The snow is falling down around the armoury.
- The city's closing in around my head.
-



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XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 12:08 AM
Ugly Kid, your being a ****. You want proof of the turning abilities of the P-38, read "Aces over Germany". There is an account of the P-38 pilot turning with and inside IAR 80s.

Gen Robin Olds told of his ability to turn inside 109s.

I majorly resent your attack on Gibbage, which just oozes of smugness. I may not agree with everything he says, but it sounds like you have more of a problem with him than he does with you, god knows why.

I blieve claims of WWII pilots about the P-38, cause if they couldn't turn with them, they wouldn't be around to today to tell us that they could.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 01:04 AM
The P-38 was the only fighter that could be flown into an
accelerated stall at 1,000 ft without fear of torque-rolling into an unrecoverable spin. Nothing could stay with a P-38 at very low altitude.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 02:41 AM
Damn! Now I gotta go play WWII Fighters because of you guys! I'm gettin' real anxious to be flying your bird, Gibbage. My best bud knows Jack Ilfrey, and Art Heiden, and has stories about how cold those birds were flying out of Kings Cliffe. Sometimes the "relief tube" would freeze, then on a long flight would fill up with urine. Ilfrey said that if you had to push negative G's, the stuff would fly out all over the place, then instantly freeze on the windscreen obscurring your vision. I wonder if that can be modelled? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/images/proctorZeke.jpg
"My ancestors didn't come over in the Mayflower--they met the boat."


http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612345111

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 07:07 AM
mike_espo wrote:
- Korolov I guesss you russkies are afraid of actually
- needing ability instead of flying olegs wonder
- wagons. overmodelled vvs fighters
-

Luftwaffle scum! Just kidding.

FYI I fly the P-47 mainly, or the Fw-190. Are those overmodeled VVS birds? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Oh yeah, I also fly Ju-87s and Il-2s!!! So THERE! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

To stay on topic - do you suppose that the 20mm gun on the P-38 will be the same "style" as is on the Hurricane IIC? I thought the cannons on both aircraft are almost identical, but every reference I've got refers to the P-38's cannon as a M2 20mm.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 07:21 AM
Um, er, I doubt I could model frozen urine.

But I have seen Jack Llfrey fly. Simply buituful! It almost makes me cry at how graceful it is. He fly's an early G/H model and does lasy rolls at 5 seconds and split-S's just over the airfield. Understandable he is not pulling full deflection at an airshow when he is beign graceful. Also, when that thing pulls up, it TRULY zooms.

Also, another tactic they used against late 109's. The later G and K models could out climb the P-38, but the 109 would stall out a LOT sooner. So if the 109 went into a zool climb, the P-38 would fallow and wait for it to stall. Once the 109 stalls out, the P-38 still had plenty of controle and quickly bagged him.

Also, from the web page I posted, early P-38 pilots TRIED to get a 109 into turn fights. If they would dive, the P-38 could not fallow. Also the Luftwaffa pilots quickly learned a split-S would shake a P-38 easy. That all changed with the J/L model.

As for the IAR 80, one of the instant aces was in a large fight between a large group of 80's and a large group of P-38's. They were all in a tight turn fight. It reminded him of a large "fallow the leader" game. The dogfight resembled a tornado of aircraft. He was able to bag 5 IAR-80's in this battle.

Also, another instant ace bagged 5 FW-190's in a single flight.

How many twin engine instant aces did the Luftwaffa have? The P-38 had 8 instant aces, 7 of them over Europ, the other 1 bagged 5 Zero's.

That also may attest to the P-38's manuverability.

Gib

tsisqua wrote:
- Damn! Now I gotta go play WWII Fighters because of
- you guys! I'm gettin' real anxious to be flying your
- bird, Gibbage. My best bud knows Jack Ilfrey, and
- Art Heiden, and has stories about how cold those
- birds were flying out of Kings Cliffe. Sometimes the
- "relief tube" would freeze, then on a long flight
- would fill up with urine. Ilfrey said that if you
- had to push negative G's, the stuff would fly out
- all over the place, then instantly freeze on the
- windscreen obscurring your vision. I wonder if that
- can be modelled?

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XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 08:55 AM
Gib. I am Tsisqua's buddy he mentioned above.

But I have seen Jack Ilfrey fly. (Jack hasn't flown in close to 20 years - his eyesight is pretty much gone.) I don't know who you might be thinking of but Jack Ilfrey is widely considered to be the first P-38 Ace, he served with the 94th. and 79th. Fighter Squadrons and his story of evading through enemy-held France is the stuff of Hollywood movies. For more information on him go to http://www.geocities.com/jackilfrey

For real insight into the P-38 I suggest you take a look for the book"The Lockheed P-38 Lighting" by Warren Bodie, this is quite frankly the definitive book on the aircraft and it delves deeply into the untold truths and myths of what I consider the plane that paved the way for all that followed.

Another excellent book is "Fork-Tailed Devil:The P-38 Lightning" By Martin Caidin the chapters on Lockheed Test Pilot Tony Lavier is chock full of interesting tidbit about what the late model P-38s could and could not do.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 10:15 AM
I have two video's on my drive of him flying at an airshow in a P-38 G/H called White Lightning. I think its from the 70's. The first part of it is great. Turning on those engines and letting them out. Wonderful. Also, as he took off, he never LIFTED off. The front wheel raised about 1" off the runway, and then he raised the gear! Never altered the aircraft's level off the runway. I have NEVER seen anything like this. This is a man that knows his aircraft like he knows his hand. If I had more space, I would host it. I sent it to Oleg a few nights ago and he LOVED it.

Thanks for the book reccomendations. I hate two books already. The "In Action" and the "In detail and Scale" series for modeling, but I truly want to get something that focuses more on the history of the aircraft, and the pilots who flew them. I also have the P-38 special eddition from Flight Journal. Great stuff.

(EDIT) My bad. My view is of "Lefty Gardner" (/EDIT)

Gib


SKIDRO_79FS wrote:
- Gib. I am Tsisqua's buddy he mentioned above.
-
- But I have seen Jack Ilfrey fly. (Jack hasn't flown
- in close to 20 years - his eyesight is pretty much
- gone.) I don't know who you might be thinking of but
- Jack Ilfrey is widely considered to be the first
- P-38 Ace, he served with the 94th. and 79th. Fighter
- Squadrons and his story of evading through
- enemy-held France is the stuff of Hollywood movies.
- For more information on him go to

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Message Edited on 08/02/0301:19AM by Gibbage1

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 11:17 AM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- I do think it was the best twin engine
- fighter in the world. Care to argue that point?
-
- Gib

I don't think it measured up to the F7F-3.
j/k, carry on! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



Did the Nazis use any special designations for their captured P-38's? If they did, you could've called your model that instead, and you'd have gotten the support of the Luftwhiners instead of their flames. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 12:00 PM
Lol. F7F never flew combat. I really dont know the numbers on the F7F or how it would rank. I guess since it came in 1945, it would be superior to a 1939 design.

Gib

JR_Greenhorn wrote:
- Gibbage1 wrote:
-- I do think it was the best twin engine
-- fighter in the world. Care to argue that point?
--
-- Gib
-
- I don't think it measured up to the F7F-3.
- j/k, carry on! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
-
-
-
- Did the Nazis use any special designations for their
- captured P-38's? If they did, you could've called
- your model that instead, and you'd have gotten the
- support of the Luftwhiners instead of their flames.
- http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
-
-



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XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 01:37 PM
oleg count not only pilots memory,

naca testdata from p38l

say she is not good sustain turner,

same liga as p47

most fighter with optimal turn speed,
could turn inside a fighter that could better turn, but fly not optimum turn speed


Message Edited on 08/02/0304:36PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 03:34 PM
So the bloody thing doesn't have good sustained turn. So what? Really, knowing it doesn't have good sustained turn, what good will that do? The 109 doesn't have as good a sustained turn as a yak, but that doesn't help the yak much if the 109 pilot refuses to turn. Or when his wingman nails the yak as he attempts to take out our trusty lead 109.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 04:28 PM
Hedus wrote:
- Ugly Kid, your being a ****. You want proof of the
- turning abilities of the P-38, read "Aces over
- Germany". There is an account of the P-38 pilot
- turning with and inside IAR 80s.
-
- Gen Robin Olds told of his ability to turn inside
- 109s.
-

My thank you, what's your problem? Olds told, well lots of different people told lots of different things. Chuck Yeager told that he would have broken sound barrier with P-51 but they wanted to try something new. That's your proof? Whom do you believe, of course the one who suits your ideas the best

Physics, and testdata may not agree with these assesments. How long did he turn inside 109?, 1 sec, 2 sec enough to pull a lead or forever in a merry go around until mom told in the radio that dinner's ready shoot that hun and come home? You don't know it, Gibbage does not know it, combat report and biographies are not exactly test flight reports, are they?

- I majorly resent your attack on Gibbage, which just
- oozes of smugness. I may not agree with everything
- he says, but it sounds like you have more of a
- problem with him than he does with you, god knows
- why.
-
I have no problem with Gibbage I have only problem with unfounded BS, posted repeatedly. Allthough not answered each and everytime it does not unfortunately go unread.
I think it will be nice to have P-38 in the game and I don't think it will be a bad one, however, it may not be as you dream. That day try to define whether it's development team's or reality's fault.

- I blieve claims of WWII pilots about the P-38, cause
- if they couldn't turn with them, they wouldn't be
- around to today to tell us that they could.
-

I posted so that someone who still manages to employ his head may give it a thought. You may _believe_ what you wish, religion is BTW not supposed to be discussed here.
If you think that only turning performance matters to make an ace you have lot to learn...Turning ability or the lack of it does not make a fighter supreme. Even towards the end on the WW I the top speed, ceiling and climb started prevailing over manouverability. I suggest you do a search on Pips Priller and try to see how many Spitfires he downed with FW-190. Yet, nobody is around beating the bush and claiming FW outturns spit...

for short version read Skalgrim he usually happens to know something about something. Have a nice day /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

-------------------------------------
In these locked and shackled neighbourhoods, bridge and tunnel diplomats.
See the golden ghetto's creeper.
Crazy flags from history, songs for the White House gangsters, guns for hellgate railway sleepers.
But there's a man who makes no enemies, a body never breathless, no ambition ever hopeless.
So how stands the city on this winter's night?
The city on the hill or so they said.
The snow is falling down around the armoury.
The city's closing in around my head.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 05:35 PM
Wow. Gibb, I think you're a swell guy, I love your work, and I love the P-38. But you're starting to sound like Huck or Issy, loyalties reversed.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 05:49 PM
its funny. every vets account Ive read about the p-38 says it was a dream to fly. Could turn with Luftwaffe aircraft and Zeros. Hard to believe, but then again, by the fall of 1943 pilot quality of the axis was on the decline and that is when the lightning became a force to be reconed with in terms of numbers. Not taking away from the lightning, but Im trying to offer an explanation of why a heavy fighter could be so nimble. Our guys were getting 300+ hours of flight training before being sent off to combat. Axis pilots were barely getting 200 hours.

http://utenti.lycos.it/AEREOFAN/images/saetta.jpg

caccia buon!

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XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 07:03 PM
FACT: The P-38 did VERY well in the Mediterranian.

FACT: The P-38 did VERY well in the Pacific.

FACT: The P-38 did not do well with the 8AF over Europe.

FACT: The Luftwaffe knew how to RUN away from the P-38...that means something.

FACT: Every interview with EVERY P-38J/L pilot I have ever read has stated that they could stay with ANY Luftwaffe airplane.

FACT: Despite theories that the P-38 did not have a very good sustained turn, it was indeed successful as a TURN fighter. If any LuftWhiner would ACTUALLY read about the plane (or rather its pilots) they would know this to be true. And sustained turn isn't the greatest indicator of this...you want to loose a turn fight in FB? You just pull up into a sustained turn...you'll find out what a Yo-Yo is.

FACT: The P-38 was one of the BEST accelerating and fastest low-altitude planes in the USAAF. It's noted as being the MOST aerobatic USAAF plane...the only maneuver restricted on early P-38s was the Split-S, even the P-39 had more restrictions.

The environment (high altitude) and dificiencies (mostly early P-38s: poor cockpit layout, electrical power, cockpit comfort, intercoolers, etc) the P-38 served in has more to do with its dificiencies than it's actual capabilities. A lot of people mistake these issues mentioned above for poor aerodynamic performance...the fact is the P-38 was a VERY complex airplane to fly. Experts could shoot down anything in it...n00bs were too busy trying to turn on the electrical system and get the engine settings correct while they were being jumped by 109's. Oh, and none of the dificiencies I just mentioned are modeled in FB (as they aren't for any other aircraft either).

What is the FB environment? Low-altitude, some BnZ but mostly TnB. Where does the P-38 perform best? Low altitude, TnB. Whine all you want...

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Message Edited on 08/02/0302:05PM by MachineII

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 07:37 PM
MachineII wrote:
- What is the FB environment? Low-altitude, some BnZ
- but mostly TnB. Where does the P-38 perform best?
- Low altitude, TnB. Whine all you want...


Do Machines Dream of Electric Sheep?

How do you do Machine, long time no see.

Message Edited on 08/02/0301:38PM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 09:54 PM
I also remember a mock dogfight in WWII of a P-38 and a Spit (IX I think). The P-38 won. The Spit pilot left in fustration. The mock dogfight was intended for the British Pilot to show the US pilot's some stratigy's and manuvers. I attribute that to pilot skill, and a damn capable aircraft.

Gib

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XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 10:11 PM
Ugly_Kid

nice post from you

very logical aguments

from naca test

FM-2..............100%...........1
P-63A-9..........124%...........2
P-61B-1..........133%...........3
F6F-5.............138%...........4
P-51D-15........179%...........5
P-38L.............205%...........6
P-47D-30........206%...........7
F4U-1D..........212%...........8

you see p38L is same good as p47

me110 and me410 could turn with P38

but p63 was very good



old post from oleg
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Author: Oleg_Maddox
Rank: Creator of IL-2 Sturmovik
Date: 10/09/02 08:22PM


Whereyou read it?

In that accident they lost one Yak-1 due to failure of engine... Faster at low?, but how they was able to reach them?

About turning performance I have read other recals of these pilots as well as test of P-38L for turns.

Comparison was done also to Me-410 where Me-410 was in many ways a bit better (I mean only comparing to 38L version). Not a all of course. For example climb was worse in German plane, but control and turning ability was almost similar.


Probably you have read the part of fantastic book that is available on sukhoy.ru, where the autor say that P-38 turninin well. But it is fantastic book about fantastic situation when Russians had order to contine the war after finishing with Germans. The only one reference that is available with the comment that P-38 turning better than Yak is in this book. But there is no one reference even close to it in the trial docs..

Russians found only one advantage in that plane over soviet fighters - excellent construction of supercharger. But they get it too late that to copy, they did already new own construction finally for La-9 etc..


Gibbage1 wrote:
- Yes. The power assisted P-38's was one of Americas
- best turn fighters! A few P-38's mixed it up with
- Yak's and won. There are a lot of debate on that
- conflict, like if the Yak's were taking off. How
- many Yak's there were VS 38's and all sorts of junk.
- But the one thing that suck to me was the serviving
- VVS pilots recalling that the P-38 were faster,
- climbed better, and turned almost as good as a Yak.
- THATS impressive as all hell. The P-38 was not used
- as often as it should of due to its price. They
- cost about 300,000 US$. 2X more then a P-51. But
- in almost all aspects, late war 38's were the best
- we had.
-
-
- Gibbage


Message Edited on 08/03/0312:48AM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 10:23 PM
Oh,c'mon...can't we all just get along?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif lol


I don't know if the P-38 is as good as Gib says or as exaggerated as the Luftwhiners say, but I always loved this bird and suspect I'll adapt to however well this machine flies(good or bad). I feel the Luftwhiners are just being a little bitter though,but what do I know?



Message Edited on 08/02/03 04:25PM by necrobaron

Message Edited on 08/02/03 04:26PM by necrobaron

Message Edited on 08/02/0304:26PM by necrobaron

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 11:06 PM
Skalgrim wrote:
- from naca test
-
- FM-2..............100%...........1
- P-63A-9..........124%...........2
- P-61B-1..........133%...........3
- F6F-5.............138%...........4
- P-51D-15........179%...........5
- P-38L.............205%...........6
- P-47D-30........206%...........7
- F4U-1D..........212%...........8
-
- you see p38L is same good as p47
-
- me110 and me410 could turn with P38
-
- but p63 was very good
-

Thx Skalgrim I was desperately trying to find that from ORR. I think these relative turn performance figures were from AHT.

Nevermind, according to these figures and the FACTS posted in this very thread. P-47 for example should be a turn fighter comparable to Zero. P-51 clearly outturns them but nevermind it's acceptable since it won the war /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Now kidding aside... Again nothing against P-38 and no denying that it was a good fighter in some areas. Some of you just might want to realize that a good fighter does not just mean good turning ability nor require it, in the similar manner good manouverability does not mean good turning ability.

-------------------------------------
In these locked and shackled neighbourhoods, bridge and tunnel diplomats.
See the golden ghetto's creeper.
Crazy flags from history, songs for the White House gangsters, guns for hellgate railway sleepers.
But there's a man who makes no enemies, a body never breathless, no ambition ever hopeless.
So how stands the city on this winter's night?
The city on the hill or so they said.
The snow is falling down around the armoury.
The city's closing in around my head.

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 06:42 AM
Ugly_Kid has a good point. It might not be the best DUELING fighter around, but it can do a wide variety of roles much better than other pure fighters.

The same rules from the P-47 will mostly apply to the P-38 if we get it - pick your shots, make a kill, and get out of there! If you don't - well, best run. Or you could do some real slooowww stall fights and make everyone overshoot.

As I see it:

Advantages: Good climb, good speed, fair manuverability, excellent firepower, great as a tactical fighter.

Disadvantages: Weak inline engines, view to the sides, HUGE target profile.

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 10:31 AM
There is also one thing about that particular profile and size. Like P-47 currently on the online game. It is easy to see from the distance and it is easy to recognise. It is as if you flew all the time with icons on - alone. Well your own teamplayers can also easily recognise friend or foe but initiating the combat your opponent knows you're an enemy whereas you are still pondering this question for some more time...just a thought.

-------------------------------------
In these locked and shackled neighbourhoods, bridge and tunnel diplomats.
See the golden ghetto's creeper.
Crazy flags from history, songs for the White House gangsters, guns for hellgate railway sleepers.
But there's a man who makes no enemies, a body never breathless, no ambition ever hopeless.
So how stands the city on this winter's night?
The city on the hill or so they said.
The snow is falling down around the armoury.
The city's closing in around my head.

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 01:42 PM
Gibb, sorry but I'm going to have to agree with Ugly Kid this time. The P-38 had a lot going for it, but in the words of Scotty, "It couldna' deny the laws of Physics." You can't just ignore the math. The math defines how the plane was built, and how it performs. As I've written before, I hate defining an aircraft's performance from anecdotes. They're good for confirming suspicions, but usually lack the detail needed to get any useful engineering information from them, for the simple reason that the combat pilots are too busy fighting for their lives to take notes on airspeed, altitude, configuration tactics, weather, for both his aircraft and his opponent's. These details are necessary to define an aircraft's performance. Given the leeway to manipulate these as I want, I could easily come up with a scenario where a P-38 out-turned a Zero, but it wouldn't represent the aircrafts' typical performance.
First the P-38's strengths. First and foremost, the turbosuperchargers. They allowed it to keep SL power much higher than anything it faced. That turned a mediocre P/W ratio at sea level into an absolutely great one at altitude. P/W defines sustained climb and turn performance. The P-38 was also fast, especially up high, and had a huge payload (bigger in later models.) Visibility front and back was great. Two engines gave welcome redundancy at a time when engines weren't known for reliability (even when not being shot at.) Firepower was heavy and concentrated (and the 20mm was the same Hispano-Suiza used in the Hurri IIC IIRC.) The Lightning encountered compressibility, but it did so because its P/W and (relatively) low drag allowed it to do so when other aircraft couldn't. At least one Fw-190 driver put his plane into a full power vertical dive from high altitude, without breaking anything. This says good things about the 190's strength, but not its high altitude power, nor its drag. The P-38 could get futher into the upper right corner of the performance envelope than any previous, or contemporary, aircraft.
Now its weaknesses. Visibility down and to either side absolutely blew chunks (I've also never understood the American designers need for excessively complex canopies.) Those two turbochargers had lots of vulnerable plumbing (not to mention the liquid cooling hardware strung out along half the length of the booms.) The boosted ailerons helped sustained roll rates in the later models, but couldn't help overcoming the inertia of two, 3000 lb lumps eight feet to either side of centerline. The only thing that would have helped would be bigger ailerons (along with longer wings to give a greater moment arm.) The boost reduced pilot effort, it didn't increase aileron authority. The dive flaps didn't cure compressibility, they were a band-aid fix for it. They induced a smooth 4 g pullup when deployed. Better than breaking up, but not the thing you'd want if you were diving away from a fight, though you'd probably already have quite a lead on your pursuer. And finally turn performance. Sustained turn performance is driven by P/W ratio, and while up high the P-38 compared well, down low it didn't. The turbos are just dead weight down there, hurting performance. Instantaneous turn performance is driven by wing loading, and again the P-38 suffers here. You can ignore the math, but it's not going to lie. As my old performance professor used to say (and he's been quoted by so many) "There's no such thing as a free lunch." Flaps will help with instantaneous rate, but they'll cost you drag. Even Fowler flaps generate vortices (watch 747's on approach on a humid day to see these.) Vortices take energy to make, and that energy comes from the aircraft. I don't know enough about the combat stories to know how a P-38 out-turned a Zero, but I doubt McGuire was doing multiple low speed 360's with the guy. More likely he turned with him for 30-60 degrees, long enough to put bullets into him and blow him up. After that, out-turning the fireball is relatively easy.
As far as tactics go, they affect how to interpret the anecdotes at least as much as the engineering. Hartmann wasn't a bad pilot, he was a skilled killer. He said repeatedly that he thought dogfighting was a waste of time, and history proved him right. Throughout air combat, ~80% of all kills come from the unobserved bounce. Dogfighting is a lot more fun (when your life doesn't hang in the balance) which is why we tend to fight that way in the sim (and why flying real fighters, we'd save enough gas to go "heaters and guns" in training.) But turning is largely defensive, not how to kill someone. Some British pilots flying early Spitfire's and Hurri's thought the 190 pilots' tactics of B&Z/H&R were "unsporting". But that's just sour grapes coming from someone hanging in his 'chute on his way to Luft Stalag III. I suspect a lot of the Lightning's success was achieved in a similar fashion.
The P-38 is like any other fighter. It's got some weaknesses, and some strengths. Like Musashi Miamoto said "Allow your enemy his useless actions, but deny him his useful ones." Play to your strengths and your opponents weaknesses. Do that in the P-38 (or any other fighter) and you'll win. Keep up your usual stellar work Gibb, I'm looking forward to flying the P-38.

Blotto

"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter craft, no matter how technically advanced." - A. Galland

"Look, do you want the jets, or would you rather I slap the props back on?" - W. Messerschmitt

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 08:06 PM
Very good post Blottogg!

My question is what do the numbers say about climb rate? Surely it climbs better than the P-47 does currently.

Till we get it, I guess I'll have to settle for AI Pe-2s/3s and Bf-110s!

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 08:30 PM
necrobaron wrote:
- Oh,c'mon...can't we all just get along?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif lol

I agree! I did'nt want this thread to degenerate into performance characteristics of the lightning. It certainly is not worth arguing about.

http://utenti.lycos.it/AEREOFAN/images/saetta.jpg

caccia buon!

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XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 10:17 PM
Huck...did'ja miss me? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Too busy spamming the BP temp-forum...been neglecting this here one.

Now, lets talk about the P-38 in terms of FB...because FB isnt' real life. All planes in real life have problems like the TA152 and stability issues (just kidding...relax) and such...so it's expected the P-38 had issues...but lets look at it in the environment where we'll get to see it....

I think it's safe to say, that despite what the nay-sayers, the P-38 will be a nice alternative for FB. It's strengths play to the FB environment...plain and simple.

About those weaknesses...there is a visibility issue...in fact, it's the EXACT opposite of 190 visibility in FB. Great forward vis, crappy everywhere else. And most of the others you'll see listed aren't ones that effect the plane in FB.

As far as sillouhette goes...the P-38 may be MORE vulnerable than other planes. While it's forward profile is indeed slimmer than many other aircraft, and there is "less airplane" to actually hit, anything that does get hit seems to be vital...the nacelles are all engine and turbo...the center is all weapons and pilot...the only blessing is that the P-38 seems to be built around open space which rounds can, hopefully, pass safely through. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Argue wing-loading all you want...the plane has proven aerobatic and stall characteristics well beyond those of its contemporary planes. On a '43 server, it's a tough bird. An earlier model on a '41/'42 server would be bad news. Perhaps it's a little more BURN than TURN, but that's fine too. You cannot deny that the theater this plane was known for its greatest success was the Pacific...a theater FILLED with amazing TnB capable aircraft and yeat somehow, was the top fighter in the region. OKay...okay...the Corsair did well too.

It has a decent turn rate, good forward vis, and concentrated fire-power. It SHOULD be one of the best deflection shooting aircraft in the game.

AND one other thing...the P-38 has roughly double the .50 ammo as a P-51/40, etc. That's 33 seconds of firing, albeit four .50s, but they are all mounted int he nose...so that's significant. AND 15 seconds of 20mm ammo. Together or seperate, they're enough to ruin your day.

Nobody is saying it's an uber fighter, but it should handle competitively. I think pretty close to a P-40 w/o the stall and slightly more bleed in the turns, but MUCH faster and slightly slower roll rates. If you have speed, you can sustain turns longer...couple that with decent combat/dive flaps and it's a good ride.

PS The BODIE book "The Lockheed P-38" is really quite excellent...Bodie does a great job in it. Even if you aren't a huge P-38 fan, it's a good cradle to grave airplane story...and it covers all the problems, issues, bugs, and successes very well.

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Message Edited on 08/03/0310:28PM by MachineII

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 10:22 PM
Ive been begging for this ac since Il2

Its the Only ac ive been asking for & I hope its never AI as the p51 is now

Id love to have this ac Properly modled of corse In FB


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XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 11:16 PM
I'm just hoping for the chance to fly American planes during a dynamic campaign, the closest Ive gotten is flying Soviet Thunderbolts in Leningrad which is ok but it still sickens me to see a big red star on the Jug http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 01:13 AM
I would love to see the earlier lightning variants. the D or F or E which fought in the pacific war when the outcome was still in doubt. I think they are only going to model the J and later variants.

http://utenti.lycos.it/AEREOFAN/images/saetta.jpg

caccia buon!

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XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 02:46 AM
Don't think the D or E saw actual combat action, just the F and onwards. Can someone clarify this?

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 03:22 AM
The p-38E saw combat in the Aleutians with the 54th fighter squadron of the 343rd fighter group. They flew bombing and straffing missions against Attu and Kiska islands. Not sure if they actually saw combat against the zero or Jap fighters though.

http://utenti.lycos.it/AEREOFAN/images/saetta.jpg

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XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 08:13 AM
I thought the 54th didn't see any action up in there - too foggy and the weather was too bad for them to see anything. Need to go re-read my books...

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 08:43 AM
The 54th FS at the Aleutians used a mixed bag of P-38D and E's.

The 1st arial victory in ETO was done by LT Shahan while flying a P-38D of the 27th FS on 14th Aug.42. His victim was a FW200.

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EJGr.Ost Kimura

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 09:11 AM
dont forget its accellaration which helped in tight turning manuevers,

theres a video on zenos warbird drive in that shows the accelaration from 120mph to its top speed it cruises past the mustang where they both gave the planes full power and later the mustang passes it but the distance the 38 got was pretty amazing its a must see


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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 09:12 AM
think p38l is very good plane,but not superior how many think


with her very good frontview,speed and concentrate firepower is she danger plane, certain

but other too

and it could perhaps short time turn with 109,but only short similar 190


her climb make she too good for fb,

especially fullreal would she danger plane how 190 beta08

she is plane with many strongs but too weakness

think is is a plane like 190 you need brain to avoid her weakness and use her strongest

her big size is weakness,with mk108 love you big birds

p38 is too big

fullreal can i recognize p47 much easier as other birds how Ugly_Kid say,

think p38 would have same problem

p47 and p38 are double size 109 or la-7 and so easier to recognize

1vs1 is that great disadvantage


Message Edited on 08/06/0312:57PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 10:30 AM
think you right, hartmann was pilots with brain

hartmann count many not as good doghfighter,

that not right,he say that is only luck so he prefer bnz

at begin he has learning from both pilots type
(doghfighter and bnz) as he was wingmann,

hartmann had p39 ace with 26 victory defeat at dogfight

this p39 ace had hartmann suprice,so had p39 pilots all advantage

p39 pilots has survive later had hartmann him meet

seem so bad was g6 not



shooting skill count more as in game,

by fight move the body and so too the head, but not in game

real has you a great problem to aim through revi at doghfight when you head move with high gs

hartmann was too good gunman,

when you good gunman need you not many maneuver

hartmann was perhaps one of smartest pilots,


airfight is 3d chess

1400 mission survive not idiot

interesting hartmann was too good teacher

some wingman that had fly with hartmann was too ace fighter later

like pokryschkin,the best ally pilot

was too good teacher


great problem is too that many think g10 is same as g6

g6 was until november 44 fly,

only few g10 was use november/dezember 44

all fight with p47 or p51 aginst 109 was g6

g10 has 30% more trust

as lipfert meet yak3 has he fly g6 and although has he 5 defeat

make that fb

perhaps only ace have the only mw50 109 get first,perhaps the base that they survive ww2


survive

ace 70%
average 5%

and for clever gabbage

barkhorn and lipfert was dogfighter with over 200 viktory

and no german say 109 is superior turner



-As far as tactics go, they affect how to interpret the
-anecdotes at least as much as the engineering. Hartmann
- wasn't a bad pilot, he was a skilled killer. He said
-repeatedly that he thought dogfighting was a waste of
-time, and history proved him right. Throughout air combat
-, ~80% of all kills come from the unobserved


Message Edited on 08/04/0301:53PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 12:13 PM
Korolov, the short answer is, I don't know how the two compare. America's Hundred Thousand is on my birthday list, but until then, my library is remarkably lacking in good data on WWII American types.
Looking at the data at this website:

http://www.acepilots.com/planes/main.html

The P-38 and P47 look roughly similar. I don't know where the author got the data, but since he advertizes AHT, I'm betting that was his source. Comparing empty P/W ratios (I use empty to avoid differences due to design fuel fractions) and climb rates for the two:

P-47D-25: 4.65 lb/hp, 2780 ft/min climb
P-38L: 4.78 lb/hp, 2850 ft/min climb
P-38J: 4.48 lb/hp, 2850 ft/min climb

I assume that the climb is initial at sea level, and that it was measured with full internal fuel (so the P/W ratios would be worse for all of the aircraft), but the comparison seems reasonable. The Jug is between the two Lightning models in P/W, and a little worse in climb. The Jug is a little dirtier than the Lightning, which may explain the 80 ft/min shortcoming. For all of these planes though, the climb should start shining at higher altitudes. Unlike supercharged aircraft, these had turbos, and could maintain sea level power up into the 20's (thousands of feet.) So while the 190's and Mustangs would start sucking wind, the 38's and 47's would keep on motoring. What I haven't figured out yet are the pilots' reports of the 47 as a dog climber and the 38 as a rocket. The two appear similar, and the difference may be attributable to comparing the 38 to different aircraft (at an earlier period of time) than the Jug.

Blotto

"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter craft, no matter how technically advanced." - A. Galland

"Look, do you want the jets, or would you rather I slap the props back on?" - W. Messerschmitt

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 12:16 PM
all victory accounts was 44 against 109g6 or a4,a5

they was fly until novermber 44


a9, dora or g10 was better and was more 45 plane


only few has fly november 44

fly p47 aginst g6 without mk108 and you win

fb is not the really



Message Edited on 08/06/0312:59PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 12:35 PM
Skalgrim, agreed, Hartmann could dogfight. Despite his claims to the contrary, he was also a very good long range and deflection shooter. He tended to stick to B&Z (or "See, Decide, Attack, Coffee Break" in his words) because he thought that was the better method of killing and surviving. He certainly could mix it up though. He was also a skilled leader, and before that a skilled follower, which let him live long enough to learn and pass on his knowledge later. One of the current "sim-isms" though is that against the AI, "See, Decide, Attack, Coffee Break" won't work, since an unobserved bounce isn't possible. That is part of the current disconnect between results in the sim versus real life.

Break: Skychimp, you on the sidelines of this thread? Any light to shed on the P-38/P-47 performance issue that hasn't already been beaten to death? Now that Gibb has finished the P-63 model (in record time), any thoughts on where it will fall in the Great American Plane Debate?

Blotto

"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter craft, no matter how technically advanced." - A. Galland

"Look, do you want the jets, or would you rather I slap the props back on?" - W. Messerschmitt

Edit: Corrected spelling

Message Edited on 08/04/03 05:36AM by Blottogg

Message Edited on 08/04/0305:38AM by Blottogg

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 03:29 AM
P-38 wings were "blown" the wing would see artificial wind from the big fans mounted on them.