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Aukenlak
04-04-2005, 10:54 AM
OK, so I'll admit that I'm new to sub sims, but it's kind of annoyting to be constantly hounded by Hurricanes...during storms with rain and seas high enough I can't man my AA gun...at night. I've had three straight patrols where I was unable to man my AA gun the entire time (running January through June...). That didn't stop the Fleet Air Arm from making my life miserable any time I tried to surface long enough to charge my batteries regardless of time of day or weather. Did Hurricanes really operate at night in bad weather in 1940? I'm accacked within 10 minutes of surfacing no matter what I do to escape...

Do I just pray for a snorkle or a patch?

Aukenlak
04-04-2005, 10:54 AM
OK, so I'll admit that I'm new to sub sims, but it's kind of annoyting to be constantly hounded by Hurricanes...during storms with rain and seas high enough I can't man my AA gun...at night. I've had three straight patrols where I was unable to man my AA gun the entire time (running January through June...). That didn't stop the Fleet Air Arm from making my life miserable any time I tried to surface long enough to charge my batteries regardless of time of day or weather. Did Hurricanes really operate at night in bad weather in 1940? I'm accacked within 10 minutes of surfacing no matter what I do to escape...

Do I just pray for a snorkle or a patch?

ChaytonWarrior
04-04-2005, 11:02 AM
Yeah just encountered the same thing. The weather was clear, daylight, a bit higher waves than flat, and what? "cant man flak gun in sturm weather" like yeah right, get your **** *** moving to the flak gun, we are at war and on a submarine, if you want comfortable, then go on a luxus yacht. If the soldiers of germany, really were such afraid of manning a gun at a small bit rougher sea, then the war had been lost already 1940. So i would say, lets pray for a patch http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

der|zerst0rer|
04-04-2005, 11:10 AM
Is it really the fear of waves the keep them from manning the flak/deck, or is it just the fact that aiming would be next to impossible even in average waves? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
I have not been on/in a sub in motion, so of course I wouldn't really know...

Aukenlak
04-04-2005, 11:15 AM
It's probably some of each, but if my batteries are dead and someone is attacking me in a storm and at night I'd still shoot back...for morale reasons if nothing else. I'm just surprised that I'm getting attacked at night in 1940.

No rest for the weary, eh?

missouridrifter
04-04-2005, 11:18 AM
Storms are calculated by wind speed. If the wind is greater than 5 you can't man the guns. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

der|zerst0rer|
04-04-2005, 11:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aukenlak:
It's probably some of each, but if my batteries are dead and someone is attacking me in a storm and at night I'd still shoot back...for morale reasons if nothing else.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hear you. Your sense of duty and dedication is an inspiration to us all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Aukenlak
04-04-2005, 11:22 AM
But the Hurricanes can still attack? And attack at night?

Frederf220
04-04-2005, 11:41 AM
The air attacks seem very scripted, not like they're out there searching, but that they spawn when you surface.

Pr0metheus 1962
04-04-2005, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aukenlak:
It's probably some of each, but if my batteries are dead and someone is attacking me in a storm and at night I'd still shoot back...for morale reasons if nothing else. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the problem is, if you man the AA guns, you're committing yourself to a fight to the death, and usually with an aircraft, that would mean the sub would be the loser. Most real sub commanders didn't take that chance. Far safer to dive.

BaneSixEcho
04-04-2005, 12:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by missouridrifter:
Storms are calculated by wind speed. If the wind is greater than 5 you can't man the guns. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not to beat a dead horse, but five meters per second is only 11 miles per hour (9.7 knots). I wonder where the devs came up with this magical number and if any of them have ever been on a boat.

I practically lived on a 33-foot sailboat for a good number of years. We'd need at least a 9 knot wind just to get the boat to move. I cannot, and will not, believe that a 9 knot wind prevents the use of either of a u-boat's gun types especially taking into account it's considerably greater length and weight over a 33-foot sailboat.

/rant... again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Aukenlak
04-04-2005, 12:21 PM
"Well, the problem is, if you man the AA guns, you're committing yourself to a fight to the death, and usually with an aircraft, that would mean the sub would be the loser. Most real sub commanders didn't take that chance. Far safer to dive."

I agree, the issue is that my batteries need recharging and EVERY time I surface I'm attacked. In the rain, at night, etc. The only reason I want to use my AA is that I can't think of anything else to do, and it' won't let me try even that desperate measure. I'm frustrated that air attacks come regardless of weather and time of day. Running on the surface while under air attack means you get sunk sooner or later...

BaneSixEcho
04-04-2005, 12:24 PM
Check out the Beaufort Scale of Wind Force and Its Probable Wave Height (http://marine.cwb.gov.tw/CWBMMC/windwaveE.html). It would seem that the waves in this game are a bit exaggerated in their height.

Pr0metheus 1962
04-04-2005, 12:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bane_v2:
Check out the http://marine.cwb.gov.tw/CWBMMC/windwaveE.html. It would seem that the waves in this game are a bit exaggerated in their height. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it's probably more the case that wind speed is misrepresented. I think the m/s readings should be about doubled. That would explain the strangely low wind speed that prevents manning the deck gun. I think that when the game reports wind speed as 5m/s it's probably more like 10m/s. If the wind speed of 5m/s was actually 10m/s (or 22mph) that would make more sense. I think that if the developers simply changed the weather reports, doubling the reported wind speed, the game would suddenly start to make more sense in this regard.

cwojackson
04-04-2005, 12:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bane_v2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by missouridrifter:
Storms are calculated by wind speed. If the wind is greater than 5 you can't man the guns. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not to beat a dead horse, but five meters per second is only 11 miles per hour (9.7 knots). I wonder where the devs came up with this magical number and if any of them have ever been on a boat.

I practically lived on a 33-foot sailboat for a good number of years. We'd need at least a 9 knot wind just to get the boat to move. I cannot, and will not, believe that a 9 knot wind prevents the use of _either_ of a u-boat's gun types especially taking into account it's considerably greater length and weight over a 33-foot sailboat.

/rant... again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Look at the shape of your sailboats hull (wide beamed) compared to that of a WWII submarine (narrow beamed). Up until the Type XXI, submarine hull designs were at best a compromise and poor ones at that. With their narrow beams, round hulls and the excessive topside weight of their deck guns, WWII submarines were terrible sea keepers even in what you would consider very moderate seas and would roll horribly if presented cross wind...which is why watchstanders were often strapped down.

The flexible mounts of the flak guns did not have provisions for the crew to strap in, particularly the loader who had to have freedom of movement between the weapon and ready locker or ammo access opening. Unless the boat's CO was willing to avoid evasive manuvering and maintained a steady course into the seas, making them an easy target, it's hardly likely that the gun could even be made ready to fire, never-the-less served with ammo. If he were to manuver the crew would have a difficult time keeping their feet if they weren't thrown over the side completely.

BaneSixEcho
04-04-2005, 01:44 PM
Beeryus: Good point. However, changing just the wind speed in the weather reports would worry me a little. All I've ever had reported to me is either 5m/s or 15m/s. What would happen to the 5m/s winds if they just doubled the speed in the weather reports? There would never be just a gentle breeze? That€s what would worry me.

cwojackson: Good point as well. The sailboat is proportionately wider than a u-boat. However, that does not change my feeling that a 9 knot wind does not produce enough wind load or wave height to render either type of gun useless given it's weight. All I€m saying is that something is amiss with either the wave height, the wind speed as Beeryus pointed out, or both. I totally agree that using the guns after a certain level of bad weather would be nearly futile and quite dangerous. I just don€t think that level is represented all that well in the game.

PS: Don't you love the fact that the word simulation opens the floodgates for critical analysis? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
04-04-2005, 01:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bane_v2:
Beeryus: Good point. However, changing just the wind speed in the weather reports would worry me a little. All I've ever had reported to me is either 5m/s or 15m/s. What would happen to the 5m/s winds if they just doubled the speed in the weather reports? There would never be just a gentle breeze? That€s what would worry me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, my point is partially that we should take the weather reports with a pinch of salt. You can tell whether you're encountering a calm windless day by the sea state, and the same for a hurricane and anything inbetween. I rarely look at the weather report anyway, and whatever it's reporting, I've seen seas that are glassy smooth, and I've seen themn incredibly rough, and everything between those two. If it's reporting a glassy smooth sea as having 5m/s winds, then the weather reports (and not the sea or the actual weather) are out of whack.

All I'm saying is that if it's the weather reporting that's bugged, changing the ability of crews to man deck guns etc. in higher sea states, and lowering wave heights, will actually make the simulation less realistic because doing those things will only make the weather reports look right when in fact they're wrong. The fact is, we have no idea what wind is actually blowing, and we can best estimate it by looking at the sea - the weather report may very well be bugged, especially given the info that you posted re the Beaufort scale.

As I said before, if it's the reports that are bugged, a lot of what appears wrong in the sim suddenly makes sense. I think we've been assuming wrongly that the weather reports are right and everything else is wrong.

velkie
04-04-2005, 02:17 PM
I just think that:
a) If there is greater than 16 knot winds and rain, there should be ZERO planes in the air. (Its not like they have radar or something)
b) The weather needs to be a little more forgiving, I know its a sim, but its a game too.
c) If the seas are between 11-16 knots, only the flak is manable, 0-10 you can man the deck gun.
A little unrealistic, but not so drastic as to take away the feel of the game.

Pr0metheus 1962
04-04-2005, 03:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by velkie:
I just think that:
a) If there is greater than 16 knot winds and rain, there should be ZERO planes in the air. (Its not like they have radar or something) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>b) The weather needs to be a little more forgiving, I know its a sim, but its a game too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I completely disagree. For one thing, I think bad weather ADDS fun to the game. For another thing, a simulation should be realistic. I'm all for OPTIONAL unrealistic settings, but failing that, it should be realistic.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>c) If the seas are between 11-16 knots, only the flak is manable, 0-10 you can man the deck gun. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, but we still don't know whether the wind effect on deck gun is actually wrong, or whether it's the wind speed reports that are wrong. Changing things before we know might easily make things worse.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A little unrealistic, but not so drastic as to take away the feel of the game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it might not take away your feel for the game, but any change away from realism takes away from my experience. If you want it unrealistic, by all means ask for an optional setting, but please don't ask for an all-encompassing blanket change that's set in stone and that's going to take away from my fun.

TheFastFreddie
04-04-2005, 06:09 PM
I'm glad that deck guns are limited to what they are currently at. We are already seeing obscene tonnage from many people. I've already gotten over 325k and thats in Aug '40. I've had horrible weather for over 85% of my patrols so far and most of the time I don't even bother to travel home. Its just a weather report and I've seen it say 15mps when the waves were just barely clearing the deck. It seemed like it was more like 7mps at that time. One question. Has anyone seen higher that 15 mps?

hauitsme
04-04-2005, 06:35 PM
Anyone see the 20 meter waves yet?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/hauitsme/Stuff/waveNo7_3.gif

Major-Wes
04-04-2005, 06:48 PM
Well I guess I can try to understand not being able to man the Deck Gun or flack gun ( if it was on the deck ) because of waves and what not rocking the sub even a bit.

But those flack guns on the bridge that are right behind you? I mean come on, they can stand out there and look for ships in shorts and sun tan lotion, but they can't man the flacker because of a bath tub wave. I say they should be able to shoot anything on the bridge as long as the water doesent touch the gun, there is no sence in anything otherwise.

Wes

indylavi
04-04-2005, 07:20 PM
My problem is I've had glass seas and still not be able to use my gun. I can see the sea state greatly limiting the use of guns but unless the wind is really really bad you should be able to man a gun. I know they didn't have straps but did they have any rope or belts? Sailors not know how to tie a knot? As I said if the sea is really bad then I can see. Even if your tied down you can drown but I refuse to accept soldiers willing to die rather than man a gun because it's windy outside. In my boat these men would be shot for being cowards. Sorry Sir I can't go outside I don't want my hair messed up.

With rough seas and wind fine. But as I've said I've had clam seas but due to wind can't man anything. Also, as above, I've been attacked in really bad weather by aircraft. I always thought if cloudy weather prevented air cover for allied troops, and allied bombing missions, how is this plane able to track me in a gail.

Caseck73
04-04-2005, 07:34 PM
I totally agree that the flak guns behind the tower should be usable in heavier weather. I hope they'll fix this in the next patch.

I have a bigger issue with planes being able to fly out and bomb accurately in high winds... And then you sit there and your guys whine about the waves being too tall to shoot back.

That's why I'M THE CAPTAIN! I'll decide it's too dangerous after we fish you out two or three times...

Darnitz
04-04-2005, 10:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bane_v2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by missouridrifter:
Storms are calculated by wind speed. If the wind is greater than 5 you can't man the guns. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The devs are from Romania, they probably never even made it to the Black Sea to see a real boat float. All the know is what they have read or seen in pictures (not much it seems)

I practically lived on a 33-foot sailboat for a good number of years. We'd need at least a 9 knot wind just to get the boat to move. I cannot, and will not, believe that a 9 knot wind prevents the use of _either_ of a u-boat's gun types especially taking into account it's considerably greater length and weight over a 33-foot sailboat.

/rant... again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hatman1967
04-04-2005, 10:42 PM
I agree that the waves don't seem to match the wind speeds. I mean the waves with winds of 15m/s are HUGE! They swamp the conning tower and even large merchant men are not completely safe from capsizing ... but if you do the calculations, 15m/s translates into a 54 KM/hour (not MPH) wind ... which translates into a windy day - not the near gales that seem to be the result.

But hey, I am hardly a sailor, so what the heck do I know?????

But the fact that winds are either, 5mps, 7 or 15 seems a little strange

Dano

cwojackson
04-05-2005, 01:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bane_v2:

cwojackson: Good point as well. The sailboat is proportionately wider than a u-boat. However, that does not change my feeling that a 9 knot wind does not produce enough wind load or wave height to render either type of gun useless given it's weight. All I€m saying is that something is amiss with either the wave height, the wind speed as Beeryus pointed out, or both. I totally agree that using the guns after a certain level of bad weather would be nearly futile and quite dangerous. I just don€t think that level is represented all that well in the game.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's not just a narrow hull. It's an extremely narrow hull that has very little keel, is basically round and very top heavy due to the deck gun...all of which translates to a vessel that is going to roll like a pig in any sea state unless it is making directly into the seas (and not manuvering).

cwojackson
04-05-2005, 01:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by indylavi:
My problem is I've had glass seas and still not be able to use my gun. I can see the sea state greatly limiting the use of guns but unless the wind is really really bad you should be able to man a gun. I know they didn't have straps but did they have any rope or belts? Sailors not know how to tie a knot? As I said if the sea is really bad then I can see. Even if your tied down you can drown but I refuse to accept soldiers willing to die rather than man a gun because it's windy outside. In my boat these men would be shot for being cowards. Sorry Sir I can't go outside I don't want my hair messed up.

With rough seas and wind fine. But as I've said I've had clam seas but due to wind can't man anything. Also, as above, I've been attacked in really bad weather by aircraft. I always thought if cloudy weather prevented air cover for allied troops, and allied bombing missions, how is this plane able to track me in a gail. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The watch was often strapped into position as a matter of routine. This was easy because they stood in one position and simple scanned a sector of sky which did not require them to need to move about.

Now you take the gun and loader. Some anti-aircraft guns did provide a means for the gunner to strap himself to the weapons and be able to pivot/elevate the weapon. But the gun remains worthless unless it's tended by the loader. The problem you now have is the loader must be able to move between either a ready use locker or a hatch through which the HEAVY ammo is being passed on a wet, pitching and rolling deck; they can't do that when they're tethered.

As for shooting crew members keep in mind, you will have to sleep some time.

indylavi
04-05-2005, 02:06 AM
I said I can see when the sea is rough but I'm getting this storm message even on Glass seas http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif That's my problem. If the sea is rough yes of coruse I can see not being able to do that. But sea is smooth with wind 7 meters per second and my guys can't go outside http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif I get this mostly in the Med area as that's where I'm currently playing. Sea smooth but windy so no gun.

I may have to sleep sometime but as long as I got my point across to the crew I can die content http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

cwojackson
04-05-2005, 02:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by indylavi:
I said I can see when the sea is rough but I'm getting this storm message even on Glass seas http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif That's my problem. If the sea is rough yes of coruse I can see not being able to do that. But sea is smooth with wind 7 meters per second and my guys can't go outside http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif I get this mostly in the Med area as that's where I'm currently playing. Sea smooth but windy so no gun.

I may have to sleep sometime but as long as I got my point across to the crew I can die content http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I haven't tried the Med yet, and I'm not personally familiar with the sea action there, but so far I've seen nothing in the North Atlantic that isn't fairly realistic for the sea keeping of a U-boat. So far I've never had any problems manning the guns when the sea state gave me a stable platform.

As for dying content...? Dead is dead. Now the crew, other then shedding some tears when they got back and explained how you died tragically when you were accidentally thrown from the tower when the boat rolled, would be very content.

jkatajis
04-05-2005, 02:41 AM
I think that best for realism would be that they would first make the weather report show wind speed more accurately and realistic (Not just 0, 5, 10, 15m/s) and match wave hights better with actual wind speed. Then it would be more realistic to set limits for when you actually can use deck gun and flak guns. Limit for deck gun and if there is flak gun on the deck could be about 6m/s and for the flak gun that is in conning tower the limit could be up to 10m/s in my opinion.

Amnio
04-05-2005, 05:02 AM
What's up with the flyingmodel in this sim? The planes swoop in at high speeds, but can still pull 90 degrees straight up in an instant? Also, the ai AAgunner doesn't always engage when you get the aircraft spotted message and choose "engage", even when fire at will is activated. (Yes, the aircraft was in the field of fire of the gun, but still no automation.)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The problem you now have is the loader must be able to move between either a ready use locker or a hatch through which the HEAVY ammo is being passed on a wet, pitching and rolling deck; they can't do that when they're tethered.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't see that as a problem, because of the distances planes are spotted at. I rarely get the time to spend a full magazine of the flak zwilling before the planes have finished their attackrun anyway. So if you made sure to reload in calmer seas earlier, who needs a loader?

Major-Wes
04-05-2005, 05:19 AM
"As for shooting crew members keep in mind, you will have to sleep some time."

Well thats why you lock the door. And if you dont have a door or a lock, then you seal up your room with peices of the sub and whatnot. And if that dont work, put a lock on the fridge and hide the key until your awake. And if that dont work, then say your sorry.

Wes