PDA

View Full Version : .50s in il2



WOLFPLAYER2007
10-11-2008, 01:30 AM
I think that the .50s (in my opinion) in il2 are very bad modelled, they are nearly to anemic...when i choose to fight with the p51, i take a lot of time to shot down the enemy, sometimes i spend all the ammo on one single enemy and even he dont give up to fly...seeing some videos of guncamera from US fighters in ww2, they gave short burst on german aircraft and you could see they getting into fire easy, and finishing with the pilot bailing sometimes they even ripped off a wing...in il2 this is not possible to do with the p51, unless 2 of them attacking the same target.

Do you think that the .50s are real and correct in il2? whats your toughts?

X32Wright
10-11-2008, 01:48 AM
The .50 cals are fine in the game and VERY DEADLY!!!

The problem for most people is that the RED tracers are hard to see SO it is hard to see if you are hitting or not.

Also most people have the wrong convergeance for it. USAAF recommended 300 yards which means 274 meters.

Finally, always shoot close and always do SUSTAINED (deflection) shots while ur hitting. You will either get a PK (pilot kill) or dead engine (or oily engine) if not a shot off WING!!!

Chevy350
10-11-2008, 01:54 AM
it seems harder to shoot down a plane than it should be. even with 6-8 50s

M_Gunz
10-11-2008, 04:00 AM
Our favorite marching song in Basic started out with "Heeeeere we go again!".

Anyone want to post the next line and get past the spell-censor?

JtD
10-11-2008, 04:16 AM
I was in a P-47 once and fired a burst of about 1/10th of a second. That made two rounds per barrel, or 16 in total. 9 of them hit and the enemy plane caught fire and controls were damaged. It blew up a few seconds later.

AnaK774
10-11-2008, 04:28 AM
They do work, very well indeed but DO require that you hit, and hit constantly to same damage element.

Spraying all over target is not going to work, after all its just heavy machine gun, not tactical nuclear weapon launcher.

Half second aimed and concentrated burst to target brings most fighter sized objects down and snapshots easily makes 'em combat ineffecient.

Downside is that players are not afraid for their life and do continue engagement still where any non suicidal pilot would be looking for exit from it.

Of course this is in good line where kill hungry pilots forget all about mission they're on and chase that poor plane to end of world.

Also keep in mind that for liquid cooled engines, radiator fluid is not modeled, oil coolers are though.

Know what you're shooting at, aim for known weakpoints, like engine/s, left eye of pilot, fuel tanks, oil cooler

Know how to shoot, unload aircraft before shooting, adjust convergence to your shooting habits, learn to use tools you have, its not always violins fault that sounds you're able to produce belong to top 10 of medieval torturing techniques.

Theres plenty of good manuals available
start from Bearcats nuggets guide and see what Dart put up about gunnery and gunsights.

LovroSL
10-11-2008, 04:35 AM
also damage moddeling in MP is much better that offline

I never have problems with .50s online, single high speed pass ussualy takes care of fw190's

offline it's diffrent http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif


also use deflection shooting, tearing up that rear fuselage is not realy the best way to shoot something dowm (unless you got some serious firepower)

Aaron_GT
10-11-2008, 05:38 AM
Deflection shooting really helps. Get a wing at good deflection at convergence in a P-47 and you'll shear it off.

Note that on some planes you need to use both triggers to get all the guns to fire. This is true for the P-51 and P-47. On these you can also set convergence of the two sets at different ranges and some find that helps.

The other tip is get in as close as you dare, although with BnZ you might have such a speed disparity that you'll be at convergence for a very short time.

Erkki_M
10-11-2008, 08:44 AM
My 6 latest P51 kills (War_Clouds_WF). All these were, I think, completely intact and not engaged with anyone else.


6. A Bf109 zoomed up very fast below me. Dived on him. Caught him at the bottom of his zoom, he began a violent horisontal turn to left (I was approaching from the same side, some 45-60 deg from above): full left rudder, short burst - 4 hits, pilot died, engine caught fire.

5: 400-500 behind, two bursts, latter killed the pilot. FW190D9. 6 hits.

4: 300-400m away, 90 deg. deflection. A 20-round burst, 5 hits: PK, ripped right wing. FW190D9.


3: Turned behind an FW190D9 at very high speed, he changed his turn's direction and throttled back trying scissors: 60-70 angle, very short burst, 3 hits: 1 made fuel tank leak, 2 others ripped his left wing from the halfway.

2: FW190D9, zoom climb upwards, 150-200m behind. A 2 sec burst, ~45 hits, some control surfaces flew apart, engine caught fire. FW190D9.

1: Dived some 420-430MPH behind a 109 that evaded pushing nose down and using full left rudder, one short burst at 100m, 5 hits, his engine stopped and caught fire. He exploded a few seconds later.


And no, I don't have tracks to prove these. Ask the people I shot... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


.50cals are VERY far from being "bad" guns. You need a different style with them, though. Its not just about the convergence but unlike with Spitfire, 109 and FW190, you must start shooting earlier and further out: 50 cals have greater muzzle speed and less drag than most weapons (all apart from the Russian UBS heavy MG, I think) so you need less lead. I recommend using convergence either between 120-150 or 180-230 meters.

Also, you need a steady hand - P51 has the very most effective control surfaces of all the planes in the game, making it more sensitive than others. You might want to try adjusting your stick's settings as well.

VW-IceFire
10-11-2008, 10:32 AM
You should have enough ammo in a P-51 to down a minimum of 3 Bf109s or FW190s. Aim, accuracy, convergence, angle, and so forth are all required. Also an understanding that unlike a cannon...the machine gun will not strictly obliterate the target infront of you on a regular basis. But a 2 second burst on target into any plane should cut control cables, destroy the engine or fuel tank, and cause the plane to crash in under a minute. Thats a kill.

Also...since videos speak louder than words...

Watch this video by THOR. He's an excellent Mustang pilot and a good gunner. You can see how very effective even the 4 .50cals are on the P-51B/C.

http://files.filefront.com/MUSTANG+finalrar/;8937958;/fileinfo.html

Metatron_123
10-11-2008, 11:27 AM
It's a tribute to the british Mustang III's effectiveness that I 'feel' like it's just as well armed as the P-51D!

rnzoli
10-11-2008, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Also...since videos speak louder than words...

Watch this video by THOR. He's an excellent Mustang pilot and a good gunner. You can see how very effective even the 4 .50cals are on the P-51B/C.

http://files.filefront.com/MUSTANG+finalrar/;8937958;/fileinfo.html
Wow, nice shots.
This also reminded me that my bigges problem isn't destruction power.

In that respect, sometimes I feel ashamed how easily I, a not really good shot, can disable opponents with these high ROF guns.

On the other hand the video clip reminded me how often I collide with my target when using these guns.

Because I wait too long for visual feedback for the hits, and fiddle with the aiming too long - until too late to pull up and away.

TinyTim
10-11-2008, 04:36 PM
.50 cals are deadly, yes. They are still wrongly modelled - their overall killing capacity is kept up by compensating the lack of incendiary power with penetrating and HE one.

Erkki_M
10-11-2008, 04:43 PM
So are cannons; shrapnels don't kill crew, unless the HE cannon round hit just a few cm away.

Boosher
10-11-2008, 04:52 PM
The .50's seem fine to me. I get 1/2 second to 1/4 second burst kills all the time, and they certainly seem to kill me plenty well. I know it may sound insulting, and I don't mean to be in the slightest, but try practicing your gunnery a bit more.

Choctaw111
10-12-2008, 11:26 AM
They are very deadly if you know how to use them. If your convergance is set to 200 meters and you are firing at 400 meters, don't expect to tear things to shreds.
You have been a member of this forum for nearly 2 years and you are bringing up this "dead horse" subject again?
I wonder how many more "50 cal is under-modeled" threads we will have in here before the new year?

LEBillfish
10-12-2008, 11:52 AM
If you can't get EASY kills with .50cal., a big part of that may be convergence.

When I hear someone say "I can't do any damage with 8 .50Caliber" I just about can guess that they have their convergence way way way too far. Now I NEVER take my convergence above 179m...EVER...My norm most often 129-149m, 179 reserved for fast movers and bomber attack.

DO a test. Don't worry about hits, don't worry about kills, and don't worry about range. Fly a Quick mission and just fight how you do with your most common plane and most common enemy as you run an NTRK shooting when the shot feels best just let it flow......Then, review the track getting very close to your plane, and mark down the ranges you fire at.....Do an average, there is where your convergence should be as THAT is when you instinctively shoot.

At 250m a fighter is just a speck. Do the trig, if you bounce up and down and side to side 2 degrees, how big of a pattern are you really hitting. So what happens is the farther out the target the less rounds you will put on it...PERIOD....Plus, if you have your convergence set far you quite often will shoot over the target as convergence also adjusts for bullet drop.

With the 2 7.7mm guns on a Ki-27, I will MAUL other aircraft if I set my convergence at say 100-129m. Rip em up badly.......8 .50, I'm going to descimate that aircraft.

Shotgun patterens do little at a long range......Drop your convergence, and learn to shoot only when you have a sure shot. Almost all of my shots taken at 150m or much much less....and I don't get hits, I get kills.

K2

HayateAce
10-12-2008, 01:51 PM
The .50's are OK.

Probably fairly close to how it was, EXCEPT:

The tracers are far too dark. If you can't see where they go, what's the point of tracers?

The sound FX blows, bigtime.

With the permanent instability of the IL2 Mustang, due to improper CoG, due to a fuselage tank that cannot be emptied independently of the wing tanks....the P51 and .50 combination is not a good one, in spite of the fact that HISTORICALLY it WAS a great combination.

Aaron_GT
10-12-2008, 02:21 PM
It was good, but there were several complaints at the JFC about instability in the P-51D making it an insufficiently stable platform. The -B and -D with fillets were more stable but the P-51 was not as stable a gun platform in real life as the likes of the F6F or P-47.

Swivet
10-12-2008, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Do an average, there is where your convergence should be as THAT is when you instinctively shoot.

Shotgun patterens do little at a long range......Drop your convergence, and learn to shoot only when you have a sure shot.

Very good advice BillFish... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
10-12-2008, 04:25 PM
I have had people fire .50s at me from 800 meters away and make the claim...".50s are so porked" lol. As mentioned above it has everything to do with convergence and when you fire. They are fine IMHO.

S!

WTE_Galway
10-12-2008, 04:38 PM
Spend some time in the '38 hurri.

Once you can get multiple kills with 0.303's the 0.50 cal suddenly becomes awesome http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


On a more serious note at long range you are relying on a couple of lucky critical hits to take a bogey down and 0.50 cal simply cannot do that the way cannon can. Partly due to the nature of 0.50 cal ammunition and partly due to the pattern boresighting used. Read this:

http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Aircraft/1943PatternBoresighting/


Just for emphasise this is the final paragraph of that report:


Originally posted by USN report:

9. Nothing in this technical note obviates the necessity for accurate shooting at close ranges to obtain optimum results. There is no substitute for marksmanship. Pilot aiming error increases with range and with approaches requiring high deflection shooting. Pattern boresighting can assist the average pilot in deflection shooting and should increase the effectiveness of the expert pilot at long ranges. However, even with this increased effectiveness, the chance of getting a "kill" with accurate shooting at close ranges is so much greater, pilots cannot afford to discontinue the timetested practice of getting in close where the most effective shooting is possible.


(Davison Signature)

RALPH DAVISON
Rear Admiral, USN
Assistant Chief of Bureau




Hence USN endorsement for the usual UBI-zoo general advice with 0.50 cal ... you need to get up close and personal http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Here is another quote about shooting with 0.50 cal. A 1943 interview with Medal of Honor winner Jo Foss. USMC.

http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Aircraft/VMF-121/


Originally posted by interview with Jo Foss 1943:
Q. How close do you have to come to do effective damage?

A. When we started out, all our shooting was out of range. We would begin on the enemy a quarter of a mile away, and by the time we actually got into range we'd used up our ammunition. Then we started getting in there from 300 yards to 50 foot off, and really started hitting them. Then we moved it down so that we'd shoot right at 100 yards - then you can't miss. If you're off to one side or the other, just kick it on. If you shoot too far off, you scare 'em! If you keep your tracers out of there - the Jap pilot shoots. I've seen him shoot half a mile off; they just keep shooting until they go on range, and they're still shooting whan they pass you. They really get rid of the ammunition! I talked to the boys when a new outfit would come in. When you talk to a man before he goes out the first time, it doesn't do any good; but after he's been out the first time or the first two times, then you can talk to him. He knows what you're talking about. I'd just tell them, "Get in there, really get them in your sights, and really shoot close." I told one group that, and every flight scored on the trip. They'd all had a couple of combats before; they were shooting away out of range - 500 or 600 yards.

I_KG100_Prien
10-12-2008, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Our favorite marching song in Basic started out with "Heeeeere we go again!".

Anyone want to post the next line and get past the spell-censor?

Same old sh*t again.. trudging through the Ubi-Zoo.. 10 more pages and we might be through..

HayateAce
10-12-2008, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
It was good, but there were several complaints at the JFC about instability in the P-51D making it an insufficiently stable platform. The -B and -D with fillets were more stable but the P-51 was not as stable a gun platform in real life as the likes of the F6F or P-47.

Yes, I know the JFC was somewhat of a dis for the Mustang. I am dubious of the comments made there. The guys who flew them in combat, on the other hand, regularly say the exact opposite.

M4Sherman4
10-12-2008, 06:21 PM
LOL kill a P-40E with only the zekes 7.7 (or what ever is in the nose) Nose guns and the .50 becomes fubar! Now if you really want do see a .50 do some damage hop on a B-25 and get a 190 on your tail and then tell me they dont own all

M_Gunz
10-13-2008, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by I_KG100_Prien:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Our favorite marching song in Basic started out with "Heeeeere we go again!".

Anyone want to post the next line and get past the spell-censor?

Same old sh*t again.. trudging through the Ubi-Zoo.. 10 more pages and we might be through.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL Squad Leader! Sing it out!

M_Gunz
10-13-2008, 01:40 AM
Compare to Macchi Bredas.

ADD: in loose general: 1 20mm is about 3 x 12.7 is about 3 x 2 x 30 cal, but it varies some.
Not all 20mm are not the same so what 1 20mm?

Mysticpuma2003
10-13-2008, 02:05 AM
If I remember correctly the Ubi forum has a search function, yes, I'm sure it does.

Lets see what 50 cal porked brings up?

Wow. five pages!

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=search&reqWords=50+c...forum_scope=23110283 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=search&reqWords=50+cal+porked&use_forum_scope=on&forum_scope=23110283)

I posted this in May 2007, and it pretty much mirrors what Billfish has posted previously in this thread;

"To be honest I have also been in the "The .50's are porked" Brigade, but then I started watching my tracks back.

At times when I was sure I'd waited for the correct moment to open fire, when the enemy was filling the gunsight, I'd open fire and watch as my multiple hits did barely any damage and the 190 and 109 would turn onto me until I was dead!

How could this be, "the .50's are porked!" I'd shout, and , well, no they aren't.

I watched my tracks back and was amazed to see my bullets converging about 40-50 metres short of the target, and while 2-3 would hit (giving speckled debris), most of them had spread out way before hitting my intended target and gone either side.

So what to do? Well I could get closer, and some guys do, but I prefer to see my deflection shot (personal preference, others are way better than me and know where the plane is in front of the nose) and so changed my settings to 250MG and 300C (even though they are all 50's!). (I would add that now I've been working on my attacks they are both at 200 now!)

My first three sorties out were a revelation.
Destroyed were 3x190's and 1x109 on my first sortie.Second Sortie 2x190 1x190 and 1xJU-88 (head-on PK attack) and the Third Sortie 2x109's and another JU-88 along with 2x109's damaged while attacking a friendly.

All I'd say is set your convergence, watch your tracks and then post that the .50's are porked.....they're not...and I used to believe they were.

Now Armour Piercing incendiary in the load-outs on the Extra Ammunition as a sub-setting would be the best addition to the P-47 series since it was introduced...but the only reason I mention it is because this is a wish list for 4.09....so .50's porked....Nah!"

So, use the search function and please don't make me post again...in......a......nother....50...cal...porked .....thread....
PLEASE!!!

Cheers, MP.

PB0_shadow
10-13-2008, 04:45 AM
WOLFPLAYER2007 is porked.

Except maybe as a fisherman

Erkki_M
10-13-2008, 05:12 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
It was good, but there were several complaints at the JFC about instability in the P-51D making it an insufficiently stable platform. The -B and -D with fillets were more stable but the P-51 was not as stable a gun platform in real life as the likes of the F6F or P-47.

Yes, I know the JFC was somewhat of a dis for the Mustang. I am dubious of the comments made there. The guys who flew them in combat, on the other hand, regularly say the exact opposite. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh.. You should know that phenomenon... I know a few guys who have just began playing IL2, and their favourite plane changes 3-4 times a week, depending on which one they used when they got their last kill. Besides, most of the real P51 pilots who downed jerries never shot a single round towards an E/A in combat in any other aircraft.

HayateAce
10-13-2008, 06:11 AM
...and I will continue to listen to them over anyone on this board, including you.

Bremspropeller
10-13-2008, 06:47 AM
The guys who flew them in combat, on the other hand, regularly say the exact opposite.


Propably because the JFS KNEW different aircraft as well and actually COULD make comparisons - instead of YOUR alltime-hero Kit Carson who brags about stuff he's never actaully done.

HayateAce
10-13-2008, 07:22 AM
Hmmm, decorated hero who was the genuine article and helped make history....or forum dweeb.

Golly, let me mull this one over.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif


Help me Brems, as my monitor is a bit dusty. What are those little symbols below the canopy area?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3030/2667003261_af1fdc1b28.jpg?v=0

Bremspropeller
10-13-2008, 07:32 AM
Yawn.

WOLFMondo
10-13-2008, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
If you can't get EASY kills with .50cal., a big part of that may be convergence.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

That and people shoot from unrealistic distances with the .50's.

VW-IceFire
10-13-2008, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
If you can't get EASY kills with .50cal., a big part of that may be convergence.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

That and people shoot from unrealistic distances with the .50's. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nevermind the .50cals...people spray away at all manners of distances and expect results. Only the cannons deliver anything beyond a tickle at longer ranges and by then its just the explosive and almost nothing else so its still not effective.

JtD
10-13-2008, 08:53 AM
Hm Ice, I once got hit by a MK108 from 600m away and it still worked very well. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VW-IceFire
10-13-2008, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
Hm Ice, I once got hit by a MK108 from 600m away and it still worked very well. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I said effective.

That was lucky http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Aaron_GT
10-13-2008, 02:42 PM
600m? They couldn't hit an elephant at that dist...

M_Gunz
10-13-2008, 11:30 PM
Auto-fire does reduce the chance of missing altogether.
Mk 105 shells are stable in flight, big 30mm with high weight:front surface compared to MG's...

1 mil is 1m wide at 1km range.

50 cals are supposed to be 8 mils wide pattern, by scatter alone some could be off 1m in 250m
range. A 109 fuselage being about 1m wide you'd have to get within 125m to guarantee no shots
go around the fuselage from dead six with dead center aim.
OTOH if you shoot with deflection then the target becomes much wider.

Last time I saw white dots on smokestacks the nose MG's and cannon tested had about 2 mil wide
patterns, total, only 1 mil scatter.

LEBillfish
10-14-2008, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Auto-fire does reduce the chance of missing...........1 mil scatter.

That's all good and fine with a static firearm, now put it on less then perfectly rigid mounts, add vibration from airflow and engine, add flexing of wings, add the side to side and up and down buffeting of flight, add how cross winds, air density, temperature and humidity affect a trajectory, then add how stable a human can hold and aircraft that moves in 3d steady...........

Naturally the sim doesn't take all that into account past occasional turbulance and how steady you can hold the plane.....Yet in either case as I said before, do the trig.

....the numbers get massive quickly.....worst of all, his plane is evading and bouncing about too.

Set your convergence close, get close, kill it in a split second burst.....and don't discount those tiny calibers as some above imply.

K2

Chevy350
10-14-2008, 12:28 AM
wow i have been reading this thread and you guys are right, i thought 50s sucked, but i set my covergence down to 130/160 instead of 200/23 and im kickin *** with a mustang now lol. that really makes a huge difference. its still hard to stay on their tail very long that close though

M_Gunz
10-14-2008, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Auto-fire does reduce the chance of missing...........1 mil scatter.

That's all good and fine with a static firearm, now put it on less then perfectly rigid mounts, add vibration from airflow and engine, add flexing of wings, add the side to side and up and down buffeting of flight, add how cross winds, air density, temperature and humidity affect a trajectory, then add how stable a human can hold and aircraft that moves in 3d steady...........

Naturally the sim doesn't take all that into account past occasional turbulance and how steady you can hold the plane.....Yet in either case as I said before, do the trig.

....the numbers get massive quickly.....worst of all, his plane is evading and bouncing about too.

Set your convergence close, get close, kill it in a split second burst.....and don't discount those tiny calibers as some above imply.

K2 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You won't get much wing flex on aim from a nose cannon but there are wing mounted 108's too.
I don't think that anyone checked the latter for scatter.

Historic tests including flying aircraft shooting at target sleeves would suggest 8 mils with 50's.
The docs have been up here. It's less than 20 in IL2, closer to 8 than say 25-30 even without
wind and piloting.

I hope nobody is suggesting that extreme distance shots could have a ghost's chance in bad
condition flying or by just any pilot or at targets that don't fly nice and steady?

M_Gunz
10-14-2008, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Set your convergence close, get close, kill it in a split second burst.....and don't discount those tiny calibers as some above imply.

K2

I don't discount something that hits like a sledgehammer out to many 100's of yards!

Sheer numbers of 30's jack up the chance to hit something critical unarmored.
Get in from the side and you've got a decent chance at a PK or other critical, fuel or instruments.

50's do the same thing only harder (and in some cases, deeper) with bigger holes.
You don't just damage the instruments, you damage the engine or fuel tank behind it.
At close range it defeats seat armor. Might have to destroy what's behind the seat first.

Blutarski2004
10-14-2008, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Auto-fire does reduce the chance of missing...........1 mil scatter.

That's all good and fine with a static firearm, now put it on less then perfectly rigid mounts, add vibration from airflow and engine, add flexing of wings, add the side to side and up and down buffeting of flight, add how cross winds, air density, temperature and humidity affect a trajectory, then add how stable a human can hold and aircraft that moves in 3d steady...........

Naturally the sim doesn't take all that into account past occasional turbulance and how steady you can hold the plane.....Yet in either case as I said before, do the trig.

....the numbers get massive quickly.....worst of all, his plane is evading and bouncing about too.

Set your convergence close, get close, kill it in a split second burst.....and don't discount those tiny calibers as some above imply.

K2 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... 8 mils is the 100 percent cone; 75 pct of shots will fall into a 4 mil cone. These mil values come from a USAF 1948 fighter gunnery manual and are employed in gun harmonization diagrams.

TinyTim
10-14-2008, 06:21 AM
I am amazed at the mass logic around here...

Just because the .50s are devastating at convergence range that does not automatically mean that they are just fine.

Would having a spitfire with very bad turn radius but very high speed make it just fine only because it would be easy to get kills with it?

M_Gunz
10-14-2008, 06:43 AM
Would a Spit XXI be welcome?

Add: don't you think that 6 50's is about = to 2 20mm, each used right?

Blutarski2004
10-14-2008, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
I am amazed at the mass logic around here...

Just because the .50s are devastating at convergence range that does not automatically mean that they are just fine.

Would having a spitfire with very bad turn radius but very high speed make it just fine only because it would be easy to get kills with it?


..... Exactly what sort of problem do you think exists with the 50cal as it is modelled in IL2?

TinyTim
10-14-2008, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Would a Spit XXI be welcome?

Hehe, I'm swithcing to Ki-43 then. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Point remains valid.


Originally posted by M_Gunz:Add: don't you think that 6 50's is about = to 2 20mm, each used right?

Yeah I do, and I do believe their overall aircraft killing ability is just spot on in IL2.


Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
..... Exactly what sort of problem do you think exists with the 50cal as it is modelled in IL2?

Since they say a track says more than a 1000 words, please take a look at these (http://files.filefront.com/HMGvsLMGrar/;12060119;/) (in order of appearance) - if you haven't already. Switch manual time to ON.

LEBillfish
10-14-2008, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
..... 8 mils is the 100 percent cone; 75 pct of shots will fall into a 4 mil cone. These mil values come from a USAF 1948 fighter gunnery manual and are employed in gun harmonization diagrams.

Sorry, yet I'm having a VERY difficult time buying this from an aircraft in flight....We're also not talking in a hard dive which adds some stability due to control authority. My "guess" is these are static tests, or even more likely mathamatical calculations figuring in clearances and so on.

In the end you're talking about the "ability of the weapon and its mount to the platform". That changes considerably when the platform is moving and subject to a bazillion variables.

K2

JtD
10-14-2008, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
600m? They couldn't hit an elephant at that dist...

Neither could I. And I didn't think the guy on my six could. The damage to my plane was only exceeded by the damage to my confidence in my safety.

Mr_Zooly
10-14-2008, 10:57 AM
Its wierd but I can tear up targets with a Corsair's 50 cals but any other plane (armed with 50's) and i hardly seem to hit anything or do any significant damage.
My convergence is set to 300 on all planes as it works for me most of the time.

HayateAce
10-14-2008, 11:14 AM
Sounds like you prefer the F4U's gunsight.

My sweet .50's plane happens to be the P40-M105. It's a shredder for me.

Mr_Zooly
10-14-2008, 11:20 AM
never thought about the gunsite http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
doesnt the Hellcat have the same one though?

Buzzsaw-
10-14-2008, 01:33 PM
Salute

The US Navy did an extensive set of tests comparing the .50 cal with the Hispano 20mm. (same gun that the Spits and Tempests have)

Their conclusion was that three closely mounted .50 cals did an equivalent damage as one 20mm.

The question therefore for the ingame performance is, do three .50's do the same damage as a 20mm?

For example, the typical Spitfire has two 20mm Hispanos in wingmounts, plus 4 fairly ineffective .303's. The Mustang, Corsair, Hellcat,P-40, etc. have six .50's, three in each wing.

I quite often don't fire the .303's on my Spit, only use the cannon, saving the .303's for RTBing. And I don't find the six .50 cals in the wings of an American aircraft do the same damage.

They are effective, can shoot down the opposition, but given a choice, I'd take the 20mm's anytime.

HayateAce
10-14-2008, 02:35 PM
It seems that leaving RoF out of the equation won't yield a very accurate impression.

Blutarski2004
10-14-2008, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
..... 8 mils is the 100 percent cone; 75 pct of shots will fall into a 4 mil cone. These mil values come from a USAF 1948 fighter gunnery manual and are employed in gun harmonization diagrams.

Sorry, yet I'm having a VERY difficult time buying this from an aircraft in flight....We're also not talking in a hard dive which adds some stability due to control authority. My "guess" is these are static tests, or even more likely mathamatical calculations figuring in clearances and so on.

In the end you're talking about the "ability of the weapon and its mount to the platform". That changes considerably when the platform is moving and subject to a bazillion variables.

K2 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... I don't disagree. The 4mil/8mil values would certainly represent tests [perhaps static] under controlled conditions. They would not include the effects of airframe being tossed around in rough air, or yaw, or an out of trim state. But such aiming effects should by rights be attributed to the environment or the pilot rather than the gun.

JtD
10-14-2008, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:

I quite often don't fire the .303's on my Spit, only use the cannon, saving the .303's for RTBing. And I don't find the six .50 cals in the wings of an American aircraft do the same damage.

They are effective, can shoot down the opposition, but given a choice, I'd take the 20mm's anytime.

I made an online test once and the 0.50 needed roughly 5 times the hits to kill an aircraft.

WTE_Galway
10-14-2008, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:

I quite often don't fire the .303's on my Spit, only use the cannon, saving the .303's for RTBing. And I don't find the six .50 cals in the wings of an American aircraft do the same damage.

They are effective, can shoot down the opposition, but given a choice, I'd take the 20mm's anytime.

I made an online test once and the 0.50 needed roughly 5 times the hits to kill an aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If i recall correctly all the previous threads on 20mm versus 0.50 cal the evidence seems to have been that even the USMC, USN and USAAF thought 20mm the more effective weapon in individual combat.

The issues at the time were more to do with the fact that the US made 0.50 cal was more reliable (US planes used wing mounts and the US 20mm jammed a lot in wing mounts) and the huge logistic problems involved in keeping up a separate supply of 20mm ammo (0.50 cal was easy it was everywhere).

The fact that US planes stayed with 0.50 cal all the way through to Korea does not mean that 0.50 cal was therefore the better weapon in a 1 vs 1 dogfight. It is not a sporting competition and armies do not think that way. It means that 0.50 cal got the job done efficiently with the least expenditure of manpower and taxpayers money.

staticline1
10-15-2008, 10:36 AM
If I remember correctly the only problem with the .50's in this sim is there are no API rounds simulated and the tracers are somewhat hard to tract sometimes. Other than that they are fine.

The only advantage the .50's have over the 20 mil rounds are you have more guns, meaning you have more rounds going down range toward your target and have a better chance of landing a hit especially in a high deflection shot. You (really) most likely won't cause any significant damage to your opponent but might just cause some small amount of damage that could slow him down in some way to give yourself the chance to come back and finish him off. It would help in this sim if we had API rounds but still won't come close to a 20 mil cannon round. Other than that, what Galway said.

Aaron_GT
10-15-2008, 03:50 PM
The only advantage the .50's have over the 20 mil rounds are you have more guns, meaning you have more rounds going down range toward your target and have a better chance of landing a hit especially in a high deflection shot.

Going from 4 guns (a typical 20mm setup) to 6 guns (a typical 50 cal set up) will give you only a small increased chance of hitting. The effect is almost entirely in the number of hits only. The calculations for how many 50 cals (or rifle calibre before that) to fit were based on weight of fire required (i.e. a measure of the expectation value for number of hits).

Given typical ROFs you'd expect 6 50s to give you about twice the number of hits as 4 Hispano IIs.

WTE_Galway
10-15-2008, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The only advantage the .50's have over the 20 mil rounds are you have more guns, meaning you have more rounds going down range toward your target and have a better chance of landing a hit especially in a high deflection shot.

Going from 4 guns (a typical 20mm setup) to 6 guns (a typical 50 cal set up) will give you only a small increased chance of hitting. The effect is almost entirely in the number of hits only. The calculations for how many 50 cals (or rifle calibre before that) to fit were based on weight of fire required (i.e. a measure of the expectation value for number of hits).

Given typical ROFs you'd expect 6 50s to give you about twice the number of hits as 4 Hispano IIs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is also getting missed here is that effectiveness depends on the resilience of the target. Against personnel or unarmored targets lots of 0.50 cal may well be better than fewer 20 mm.

Once armor comes into play extra 0.50 cal rounds just mean you remove more paint.

Unless you bounce the 0.50 cal off the ground imparting awesome wu-li elemental earth magic to each round of course. Then you can destroy heavy tanks with ease.

Aaron_GT
10-15-2008, 04:43 PM
Against personnel or unarmored targets lots of 0.50 cal may well be better than fewer 20 mm.

The USN rated the 20mm (quad installation) better against unarmoured vehicles in its tests (versus 6 50s).

Aaron_GT
10-15-2008, 04:52 PM
Quick explanation on the chances v numbers thing.

If you have some coins, and toss them and count a head as a 'hit'

Then with 4 coins the chance of at least one hit is 1 - the chance of no hits, or 1 - (0.5)^4 = 0.9375. For 6 coins it is 1 - 0.5^6 = 0.984375. i.e a 0.05 greater chance with 6 coins (0.9375 + 5%)

The average number of heads is 2 and 3 in each case (50% increase).

So in this simple example the effect of adding coins to the chance of a head is small, the effect on the expected number of heads is linear.

WTE_Galway
10-15-2008, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
Quick explanation on the chances v numbers thing.

If you have some coins, and toss them and count a head as a 'hit'

Then with 4 coins the chance of at least one hit is 1 - the chance of no hits, or 1 - (0.5)^4 = 0.9375. For 6 coins it is 1 - 0.5^6 = 0.984375. i.e a 0.05 greater chance with 6 coins (0.9375 + 5%)

The average number of heads is 2 and 3 in each case (50% increase).

So in this simple example the effect of adding coins to the chance of a head is small, the effect on the expected number of heads is linear.

Good point.

If we want to really get technical you need to also look at harmonisation.

Late war US guns did not use point bore sighting. the pattern boresighting for 0.50 cal was designed to give a lethal spread across an area covering two planes at convergence.

For a valid statistical comparison you would need data on the harmonising used for 4 x 20 mm.

Aaron_GT
10-15-2008, 05:32 PM
For a valid statistical comparison you would need data on the harmonising used for 4 x 20 mm.

It was only an approximation for illustrative purposes and a first order result, but you are correct - pattern harmonisation will increase the chances of hitting slightly but drop the average number of hits. It would take a while to develop a detailed set of results in all circumstances. I did write a program to do some more detailed stats ages ago but I don't have a copy and I'm not rewriting it now! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I didn't add in different harmonisation differences though.

M_Gunz
10-18-2008, 04:47 AM
Then you need to add in how many hits each takes on average to down certain targets....