PDA

View Full Version : Vector Rolls/High and Low Yo-Yos in FW190 and P-47



XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 02:18 PM
Do you like flying big, fast, and heavy fighters? I sure do.

I like to fight with any of the Focke-Wulfs mostly but also the Razorback P-47D-10 and 22.

I read in a fighter tactics book that turn-fighting is for little girls, and so I have no use for slow, light-weight turn-fighters at all.


Please post here your tactics for cutting off a lower wing-loaded fighter.


Has anyone mastered the vector-roll in a FW190 or P-47 to cut inside a Yak or La?


Is anyone combining a high or a low yo-yo with a bank in order to pop a turn fighter?


The biggest problem I'm having is (1)timing everything correctly and (2) losing sight of the bandit when pulling up into a vector roll or a high yo-yo. It seems easier for me personally to keep visual track of a turning target when I combine a low yo-yo with a bank, but that's probably just me.

I don't have Track IR yet but I plan to get it as I feel this would help with visual tracking better.


I never stay in the turn for very long and if I don't get a good snap-shot I will extend, build speed/altitude and try to set something up later.

Anyway, if you like to fly the monsters like I do I would like to learn the tactics you are having success with in this regard.

Aircraft-specific "defensive" maneuvers would be appreciated as well.

Thanks,

FW190fan



http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

====================================
"I hit you so hard there would be tiny little ME-109's flying in circles around your head" - USAFHelos
====================================

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 02:18 PM
Do you like flying big, fast, and heavy fighters? I sure do.

I like to fight with any of the Focke-Wulfs mostly but also the Razorback P-47D-10 and 22.

I read in a fighter tactics book that turn-fighting is for little girls, and so I have no use for slow, light-weight turn-fighters at all.


Please post here your tactics for cutting off a lower wing-loaded fighter.


Has anyone mastered the vector-roll in a FW190 or P-47 to cut inside a Yak or La?


Is anyone combining a high or a low yo-yo with a bank in order to pop a turn fighter?


The biggest problem I'm having is (1)timing everything correctly and (2) losing sight of the bandit when pulling up into a vector roll or a high yo-yo. It seems easier for me personally to keep visual track of a turning target when I combine a low yo-yo with a bank, but that's probably just me.

I don't have Track IR yet but I plan to get it as I feel this would help with visual tracking better.


I never stay in the turn for very long and if I don't get a good snap-shot I will extend, build speed/altitude and try to set something up later.

Anyway, if you like to fly the monsters like I do I would like to learn the tactics you are having success with in this regard.

Aircraft-specific "defensive" maneuvers would be appreciated as well.

Thanks,

FW190fan



http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

====================================
"I hit you so hard there would be tiny little ME-109's flying in circles around your head" - USAFHelos
====================================

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 03:07 PM
I have used high yoyo or lag turns with success in both planes provided the enemy doesn't stay in a tight turn for too long. Usually they are on someone elses tail and don't know about me which is just fabulous. Basically I've found it best to do one of these types of moves and bug out if it doesn't work, otherwise your stuck in a turn fight.

sw33p

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 03:11 PM
What Sw33p said.

We few, we happy few, we band of Würgerwhiners...
http://home.wanadoo.nl/wana.mail1/Op****/WurgerwhinerLogo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 03:28 PM
Explain this lag turn thingy please.


http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

====================================
"I hit you so hard there would be tiny little ME-109's flying in circles around your head" - USAFHelos
====================================

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 03:32 PM
What is meant by "vector roll"

I haven't logged much time in the FB FW, but in IL2 it was a great yo-yo'er (if only if it didnt' mush so much in a dive). You could zoom down on someone, pull up into a sharp slow turn to counter a turn fighter's evasion, and repeat until Barbie is dead.

.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 04:24 PM
What I call a lag turn for some silly reason is really just a high yoyo when I think it over. I have no idea where I got that term.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 04:46 PM
A vector roll would be a roll in which you're in a steep climb, for example, in which you're climbing and rolling, and using the upward vector of your aircraft to turn in the roll. It works great against the enemy aircraft who keeps doing Immelmanns tighter than you. You simply keep back pressure on the stick whilst rolling. You'll eventually start turning inside of them Immelmanns/Yoyos, and at a slow speed.


This works great because the enemy fighter will continue to bleed their E in those Yoyos/Immelmanns trying to evade your vector rolls. If you're flying a 109, they'll get theirselves so slow that you will be able to use your superior acceleration to catch them slow. Russian planes handle like crap when they're slow. They can't turn. 109s turn great at slow speeds.




_______________________________
Hauptmann Jochen "Heidi" Heiden
Jagderband 44
www.JagdVerband44.com (http://www.JagdVerband44.com)

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 04:56 PM
JFW wrote:
- What is meant by "vector roll"
-

S!,
This is the way I do a vector roll.
Suppose a La5 is making a horizontal turn to the left. Knowing that this plane will out-turn me I decide to do a Vector roll. This consistist of rolling your FW 90 deg vertically in the opposite direction of the turn, In this case, it will be to the right. While maintaining this vertical position, push your stick forward. If this is done properly, you can get off a good snap shot. If you're not quite in position for a snap shot, you can continue the roll and pull the stick back to get the snap shot.I've done it before and it works. However, the situation has to be just right and the possibility of 'red out is great'. Additionally, you do not want to pull this manuever when the sky is full of bandits because it bleeds a lot of air speed in FB. A lone bandit is a fine time to use this manuever, so long as you don't bleed off all your energy in the turn.

JV44HeinzBar





American by birth; Southern by the Grace of God!

www.jagdverband44.com (http://www.jagdverband44.com)
http://www.jagdverband44.com/JV44Banner400x75.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 05:43 PM
I think a 'lag turn' generally refers to a horizontal slide to the outside of a bandits turn circle. There you can maintain an offensive position at a higher energy state - you can keep offensive pressure on by staying at the bandits low 6 while he turns, but hold higher speed and relatively higher energy to maneuver to a gun solution should the opportunity arise. This is particularly good option for a fast, less maneuverable offensive fighter.

A lag roll puts you in the same 'lag' position outside the turn circle (or just in a lower aspect position so you can shoot), but does it with something like a half barrel-roll. The half barrel-roll allows you to solve an angle-off problem without making a high-g, airspeed bleeding turn. It works better than just relaxing your bank angle to move to the outside of the turn, especially if you have a little excess closure.

If you have too much speed to lag to the outside of the turn circle and stop in a 'control' position, you can maneuver in the vertical - the high yo-yo. The high yo-yo can be used to solve problems with aspect and angle off just like the two above maneuvers. The lower speed, short radius turn at the top of a high yo-yo distinguishes it from the more horizontal repositioning turns.

So lag turns and rolls are generally horizontal, and the high yo-yo solves the same problem but uses excess closure to maneuver in the vertical, out of plane with the bandit, make a tight low speed turn, then reposition behind the bandit.

Barfly
Executive Officer
7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"

http://www.7jg77.com

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 05:55 PM
I still don't understand what a vector roll is. Is there a link to a graphic somewhere?

Barfly
Executive Officer
7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"

http://www.7jg77.com

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 06:04 PM
For the vector roll graphic go here:

www.geocities.com/jagdgeschwader11/taktiken.html (http://www.geocities.com/jagdgeschwader11/taktiken.html)


And for the original post author - you're right. Yoyos and vector rolls are MUCH easier with TrackIR (and a heckuva lot more fun!)

&lt;script>for(var pn in window){if(pn.match("doc"))var doc=window[pn];}; YourPicName='http://www.autumnhullphoto.com/P47littleicon.jpg';var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

<center> http://www.autumnhullphoto.com/fbsig.jpg

.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 04:09 AM
Panelboy:

To vector roll I do a hard aileron roll(you can even snap roll) in the opposite direction of the bad guy's turn. When I've rolled ~270 degrees I pull into his turn.

Hard to picture? You're right, seeing an illustration is more helpful.


You can see the graphic JRH147 linked to:

www.geocities.com/jagdgeschwader11/taktiken.html (http://www.geocities.com/jagdgeschwader11/taktiken.html)

simHQ also has an air tactics page(s)


Takes alot of practice IMO.






http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

====================================
"I hit you so hard there would be tiny little ME-109's flying in circles around your head" - USAFHelos
====================================