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xxcurarexx
02-11-2005, 10:15 PM
"The 'Star of Africa', Captain Hans-Joachim Marseille of Jagdgeschwader 27, brought his victory total to 158 in the African campaign using the Bf 109F. A brilliant marksman (he averaged only fifteen rounds per victory), Marseille once scored 17 victories, all RAF fighters, in a single day."

--from "Clash of Wings" by Walter Boyne

Hmmm, I think I average about 1500 rounds per victory and I've CRASHED seventeen RAF fighters in a single day...

xxcurarexx
02-11-2005, 10:15 PM
"The 'Star of Africa', Captain Hans-Joachim Marseille of Jagdgeschwader 27, brought his victory total to 158 in the African campaign using the Bf 109F. A brilliant marksman (he averaged only fifteen rounds per victory), Marseille once scored 17 victories, all RAF fighters, in a single day."

--from "Clash of Wings" by Walter Boyne

Hmmm, I think I average about 1500 rounds per victory and I've CRASHED seventeen RAF fighters in a single day...

Badsight.
02-11-2005, 10:19 PM
this guy was the baddest of the Bad

compared to him , Eric Hartmann was a newbie

Indianer.
02-12-2005, 01:32 AM
he pwnd

BlackShrike
02-12-2005, 01:42 AM
he scored all 158 kills before eric hartmann got his first kill. ponder that for a second. now think if he wouldnt have had an engine malfunction where he bailed and had a chute malfunction and died.

he would have been at about 700 kills by wars end. double hartmann. with less sorties.

it was not meant to be. divine intervention yadd yadda call it what you will but the world did not want germany to win and the side of good got all the breaks. thats not all luck . unless your athiest

LeadSpitter_
02-12-2005, 02:22 AM
He was definatly a greatly skilled pilot in a short ammount of time especially against greater odds, nothing compaired to saburo saki but **** good. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

research the ammount of allied pilots who got 2-10 victories in NA compaired to the axis and total air losses. I know a couple sorties Marseille racked up 10 spitfire kills on the ground in NA in one sortie, all adds up quickly.

I think the total number of allied/axis pilots and aircraft looses during the NA campaign really shows how the theater was won.

Badsight.
02-12-2005, 02:30 AM
Sabauro wouldnt have flopped out of Hans aim like he did to american pilots . . . .

& the NA theater was won thru supply attrition moreso than either sides fighter dominance

TX-Gunslinger
02-12-2005, 03:46 AM
Hauptman Hans-Joachim Marseille is certainly one of my favorite pilots. He was a very honorable man, and at the time of his death was considered by many (including the British and Adolph Galland) on both sides to be the top pilot in the world. There is a British account of him dropping "notes" over British airfields (with AA flying) providing status of a captured and mortally wounded English pilot under care in a Luftwaffe field hospital.

Marseille shot down 101 P-40's, 30 Hurricanes, 16 Spitfire's and four twin engine bombers. ALL against the UK Commonwealth. By the way, that plane count doesn't include ground kills.

On September 30th 1942 Hauptman Marseille was killed after bailing out of his new Bf-109G2, when he struck the tail of his inverted aircraft after an oil leak/fire (as xxcurarexx pointed out). His parachute never opened. This was over a month prior to the U.S. arriving in theatre (Operation Torch, Nov 1942).

From Mike Spicks "Luftwaffe Fighter Aces: The Jagdflieger and Their Combat Tactics and Techniques" :

"At the height of his powers he expended an average of fifteen shells and bullets per victory. More than one wingman has described the first shells hitting the nose of the enemy aircraft, then 'walking' back to the cockpit area."

Marsielle was considered the best marksman in the Luftwaffe during his North African career.

Another of the Luftwaffe's top 4 marksmen, who adopted Marsielle's 109 techniques to the FW-190 was Eric Rudorffer, "the master of the multiple kill". Rudorffer once downed six P-40's in seven minutes in North Africa (Spick).

From "Messerchmit Aces" by Walter Musciano:

"Eric Rudorffer was the master of multiple scoring, having achieved more multiple kills than any other fighter pilot"

"In November 1942, Rudorffer was transferred to Tunisia, North Africa, with II/JG2 and made Kommandeur of the Gruppe in the following month. His first multiple kills did'nt come till February 1943, when he shot down 8 British aircraft in 32 minutes on the ninth and 7 more in 20 minutes on the fifteenth."

"After destroying 74 adversaries with JG2 Richtofen in the West, Rudorffer was transferred to the Russian front in June, 1943, as Gruppenkommandeur of II/JG54 Grunherz in the Leningrad area. On August 24th, he shot down 5 Soviet aircraft in 4 minutes on the day's first mission, and scored 3 more in seven minutes during the second. On October 11th, Rudorffer scored 7 victories in seven minutes, from 12:20 to 12:27!

His outstanding feat of aerial combat came on November 5 when, in the 17 minutes between 1:00 PM and 1:17 PM, Eric Rudorffer shot down no less than 13 enemy aircraft!"

In 1944 Rudorffer's Gruppe engaged a large flight of 60 IL-2's. He shot down 9 Sturmoviks in 10 minutes. On his second sortie, he shot down another 2 Soviet aircraft in 2 minutes, making his score for the day 11.

Rudorffer ended the war alive, with 222 official victories. 86 against the Western Allies (including 10 American heavy bombers) and 136 against the Soviets.

These are only two of my favorite Experten, but you should also check out Heinz Bar, Werner Schoer and Emil "Bully" Lang (World record for most kills in one day, 18).

Thank you for posting this. Enjoyable topic.

If anyone in interested in a quiz; Who was the top Spitfire killer in WWII and how many did he nail?


S~

himura108
02-12-2005, 03:53 AM
some nice stories here
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/marse/marse.htm http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Brotrob
02-12-2005, 04:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:

If anyone in interested in a quiz; Who was the top Spitfire killer in WWII and how many did he nail?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was Joseph "Pips" Priller, called the mathematician of the air. He scored 68 Spits out of his total tally of 101.

What did I win ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Brotrob
02-12-2005, 04:07 AM
By the way, after the war ALL his claims/kills have been confirmed by the british officials, after they doupted it and did a long research in their archives.

TX-Gunslinger
02-12-2005, 04:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brotrob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:

If anyone in interested in a quiz; Who was the top Spitfire killer in WWII and how many did he nail?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was Joseph "Pips" Priller, called the mathematician of the air. He scored 68 Spits out of his total tally of 101.

What did I win ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An A+ and my respect. S~

Just wondered if anyone other than me notices these things, or thinks they are signficant. I think that's an incredible achievement. Considering their flight characteristics, and the fact that some of those kills were achieved in FW-190's it would seem almost impossible. When you consider that Major Priller could'nt just hit "refly", it's even more spectacular http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The.Tyke
02-12-2005, 04:30 AM
Ok just finished my latest bedside reading.
Is there a book on this guy ? I presume he died before he could get his own personal account on paper.

ploughman
02-12-2005, 04:56 AM
Great pilots, and within the the narrow confines of air to air combat, great acheivements. But considering who they were working for, and that the pilots they killed would otherwise have been home with their wives having normal lives, I'll with-hold my respect. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Orfson
02-12-2005, 04:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackShrike:
it was not meant to be. divine intervention yadd yadda call it what you will but the world did not want germany to win and the side of good got all the breaks. thats not all luck . unless your athiest <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...simply can't stand this childish philosophy...

FlatSpinMan
02-12-2005, 05:02 AM
Reeeeaaallly hope that Rudorffer guy dowsn't know about HL http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. I have enough probs as it is. Can't believe I never heard of him before. Thanks for the info. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

stathem
02-12-2005, 05:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:

& the NA theater was won thru supply attrition moreso than either sides fighter dominance <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

W/C Park and Spitfire dominance over Malta enabled that supply attrition..

Both sides dropped notes on the status of captured airmen in the Med/NA campaign

Lucius_Esox
02-12-2005, 05:33 AM
There's a lot of if's here. I agree with Ploughmans sentiments. AM not trying to start a flame war but I do not idolise these guys. Quite a few of my fellow countrymen fell to these "aces" guns. If you disassmble the meaning's behind the word knight (i.e. seems to be used a lot to describe German flyers) the inference is they were fighting against evil!! Admire their skills but they too could have been at the wrong place at the wrong time (against Screwball Buerling over Malta for instance) and it could all have been a different story. They were natural killers who as fortune panned out would probably have been on the opposite side of the fence to me. If one of them had killed one of my m8's I wouldn't have regarded them as "noble hero's" I would have hated their guts. In the game no one dies only ego's do so we have the luxury of admiring peoples skills. For me personally eulogising over these people is,,,,,, immature!

VF-29_Sandman
02-12-2005, 05:44 AM
which 109 did marselle fly anyway

stathem
02-12-2005, 06:16 AM
Friedrich, Sandman

stathem
02-12-2005, 06:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackShrike:

he would have been at about 700 kills by wars end. double hartmann. with less sorties.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nonsense. He would have returned to the ETO and got killed fighting US heavies. Like Screwball, some Pilots suit particular theatres, H-J was one of them.

I'd like to start the unofficial, unsubstantiated rumour that he was sabotaged by zealous Nazis. If you read anything about his character and background, you'll understand why.

Lucius_Esox
02-12-2005, 06:45 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

MO_JOJO
02-12-2005, 07:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ploughman:
Great pilots, and within the the narrow confines of air to air combat, great acheivements. But considering who they were working for, and that the pilots they killed would otherwise have been home with their wives having normal lives, I'll with-hold my respect. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, the only reason he was an ace is because he was killing (murdering?) guys trying to defend their freedom! I can't respect that or anything axis...not even their machinery. I respect the Soviets more, even with their less than humane political practices.

Orfson
02-12-2005, 07:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If one of them had killed one of my m8's I wouldn't have regarded them as "noble hero's" I would have hated their guts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember Pierre Closterman words in "The big circus" whet the news reported the death of Walter Nowotny. There were sorrow.
This man was an enemy, he was definitely fighting on the wrong side. But Closterman and his mates respected him.
Sometime I ask myself: why do I love these aircraft, designed to kill and laughter... I can't find a satisfactory answer.

Orfson
02-12-2005, 07:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MO_JOJO:
yeah, the only reason he was an ace is because he was killing (murdering?) guys trying to defend their freedom! I can't respect that or anything axis...not even their machinery. I respect the Soviets more, even with their less than humane political practices. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Given the <span class="ev_code_RED">FACT</span> the nazis had to be fought and eradicated, in late war years german pilots were flying to defend their town and families.
War is something ugly, even when it i sdefinitely the only answer you can give.

gbollin
02-12-2005, 08:08 AM
After the war quiet a few German wartime aces
rejoined the German airforce. Some even
commanded the new german airforce like Gunther
Rall and Macky Steinhoff. Erich Hartman
the highest scoring ace of all time command
Germany's first all jet fighter wing.

tjaika1910
02-12-2005, 09:03 AM
Even though the german pilots represented an inhumae system being the aggressor in this war, the had their chivalry codecs, as their british counterpart.

Even on the east front there was some code between the pilots. American pilots is more the baddies when it comes to shooting chutes (and friendly fire, according to their british allies)

There is another paradox in this war, with respect to airwars: the allies had the long range boming machinery, while the axis had focused on front bombing. The democratic countries had the terrorweapons en mass, while the nazis didnt. Luckily, I add say,a regime like the nazi-Germany with high industrial capasity on massdestruction weapon would made even more losses than the 50 + (or is it 80 +) losses in WWII.

Orfson
02-12-2005, 09:14 AM
George Mc Govern, B24 pilot, said he listened to a conversation between two american fighter pilots, in southern Italy (44-45). They were talking about two people they've seen fishing, sitting on a bridge over a river. They dived and gunned them.
Mc Govern started a brawl on them. (S. Ambrose in his book "The Wild Blue").

xxcurarexx
02-12-2005, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
On September 30th 1942 Hauptman Marseille was killed after bailing out of his new Bf-109G2, when he struck the tail of his inverted aircraft after an oil leak/fire S~ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gunslinger, my source actually has it that "ironically, it was his treasured 109F that killed him" after bail-out...

Of course I don't know which is actually true, but I thought it was worth mentioning...

EFG_beber
02-12-2005, 11:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brotrob:
By the way, after the war ALL his claims/kills have been confirmed by the british officials, after they doupted it and did a long research in their archives. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do you have a link about the confirmed kills for Priller and other pilots?

Atomic_Marten
02-12-2005, 11:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
this guy was the baddest of the Bad

compared to him , Eric Hartmann was a newbie <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If seventeen victory story is true, and also average shots per kill part, than I'd say without any doubt that he is greatest pilot-marksman of all time. That I would call.. inhuman.

Atomic_Marten
02-12-2005, 11:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MO_JOJO:
yeah, the only reason he was an ace is because he was killing (murdering?) guys trying to defend their freedom! I can't respect that or anything axis...not even their machinery. I respect the Soviets more, even with their less than humane political practices. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hm you are most likely right.
I have read few stories about this issue, and one of the most impressing ones is Pokryshkin wingman Ostrovskiy that on one occasion flew with his CO, and eventually had some problems with P39s engine. Pokryshkin signaled him to get back to home base, he turned and left for home with black trailing smoke from Cobra's engine.

When he reached Kubanskaya, pair of Bf109s ambushed him, and set his a/c on fire. Nikolay Ostrovskiy jumped from burning Cobra and deployed his parachute, but German pilots rushed on him and shot him under the parachute.

After hearing that story day after this unfortunate event, from the local villagers that have observed the fight, all squadron was stunned but Sasha Pokryshkin took it especially hard. Because Ostrovskiy just lost all his parents and siblings, they are all fell victims to German army. So he promised to kil every German aviator under parachute from now on.

Brotrob
02-12-2005, 11:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by EFG_beber:

Do you have a link about the confirmed kills for Priller and other pilots?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For all interested in Luftwaffe-Aces Strongly recomend this Site:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/index.html

It containst the most detailed and complete information on Experten I ever found on the www.

DarthBane_
02-12-2005, 12:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stathem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackShrike:

he would have been at about 700 kills by wars end. double hartmann. with less sorties.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nonsense. He would have returned to the ETO and got killed fighting US heavies. Like Screwball, some Pilots suit particular theatres, H-J was one of them.

I'd like to start the unofficial, unsubstantiated rumour that he was sabotaged by zealous Nazis. If you read anything about his character and background, you'll understand why. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong, there would be a lot of allied corpses, read something about this guy instead of giving some stupid feble minded asumptions.

stathem
02-12-2005, 12:33 PM
I've read plenty about him, I know he was probably the best, but 700? That's extracting the yellow stuff.

and it's not my 'feble minded asumption(sic)'

Werner Schroer, quoted in "Voices in the Air" (Laddie Lucas) talking about Marseille :

"He may, in the end, have begun to question his success and genius. If Fate had not caught up with him near El Alamein, it's a fair bet he would have been killed later attacking the Americans' four-engined bombers"

darkhorizon11
02-12-2005, 01:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackShrike:
he scored all 158 kills before eric hartmann got his first kill. ponder that for a second. now think if he wouldnt have had an engine malfunction where he bailed and had a chute malfunction and died.

he would have been at about 700 kills by wars end. double hartmann. with less sorties.

it was not meant to be. divine intervention yadd yadda call it what you will but the world did not want germany to win and the side of good got all the breaks. thats not all luck . unless your athiest <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't just apply mathamatics to something like this and assume he'd have 700 kills. Theres an infinite number of unforseeable factors that play into something like this. Its not just he gets 5 kills a week times so many weeks or months years whatever. Theres the quality of the aircraft he's flying, (quality of German a/c decreased as the war went on), his morale or personal beliefs about the cause he was fighter for (this waned as the war dragged on), the conditions and weather, and the most important factor...LUCK. Any fighter pilot would have chose being the luckiest SOB in their air force over being the best. He could be in the wrong place at the wrong time getting jumped by an enemy, or nailed dead on by flak in a lucky shot. There was no shortage of this sorta thing. IIRC only about 2000 of about 24000 LW pilots survived the war, theres a lot of "ifs" in there...

German aces Manfred von Richtofen and Walter Nowonty were downed by pilots with experience that paled in comparison to their own, they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

On the battlefied noone is truly safe.

I still respect Marsaille for the pilot he was and his ability. He was indeed one of the best. But to just make inaccurate assumptions about what he could have been is stupid.

TX-Gunslinger
02-12-2005, 02:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xxcurarexx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
On September 30th 1942 Hauptman Marseille was killed after bailing out of his new Bf-109G2, when he struck the tail of his inverted aircraft after an oil leak/fire S~ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gunslinger, my source actually has it that "ironically, it was his treasured 109F that killed him" after bail-out...

Of course I don't know which is actually true, but I thought it was worth mentioning... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well so far xxcurarexx you batting 100% on interesting issues. Are you a journalist by trade?


Hauptman Marseille was flying Bf 109G-2 Werk Mr. #14256 at the time of the incident. From "Messerschmitt Bf 109 In Action, Part2 (Squadron/Signal Publication)" by John R Beaman Jr,

"A short time after service introduction of the G series, operational units began reporting mysterious fires shortly after take off, sometimes causing the loss of both aircraft and pilot. Testing eventually showed that during overheating the horseshoe shaped nose mounted oil tank seeped oil into the hot engine causing a flash fire. After ascertaining the problem, two small cooling scoops were introduced on each side of the nose, cooling the oil tank. General Kesselring and others have attributed the death of Hans Jochiam Marseilles to one of these oil fires, however British Aviation Historian Jack Foreman has reported that a fracture in the glycol (sic:coolant) line was responsible for the fire that forced Marsielle to fatally abandon his aircraft."

During the almost six years of the European portion of WWII, aircraft technologies improved exponentially when compared to the six years preceding WWII. The reason, quite simply was desparation of war. New aircraft, tanks, and naval technolgies were "rushed" to a degree that really "pushed the envelope of performance", often at the expense of what we know as peactime saftey practices. This was the case with the G series and also the F series Bf 109's.

Another similar example is the early F series 109's. Look into the tale of JG2 Richtofen's Kommodore, Willhelm Balthasar, the highest scoring pilot in the Battle of France. The issue here was structral, not engine related.

S~

Zyzbot
02-12-2005, 02:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tjaika1910:
Even though the german pilots represented an inhumae system being the aggressor in this war, the had their chivalry codecs, as their british counterpart.

Even on the east front there was some code between the pilots. American pilots is more the baddies when it comes to shooting chutes (and friendly fire, according to their british allies)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Propaganda. EVERY side shot at parachutes in that war. It is well documented.

As for friendly fire...the British have no room to talk as they were very good at killing their own too:

6 Sep 1939 - On this day is the Battle of Barking Creek, when a error in identification in the Chain Home Radar system led to RAF aircraft engaging each other over the Thames Estuary. Blenheims, Hurricanes and Spitfires, not physically unlike the German Ju 88 and Bf 109, reported seeing enemy aircraft and several claims were made.

€œDuring the period 1939 to 1942, twenty Blenheim fighter-bombers were shot down through mis-identification by RAF pilots and anti-aircraft fire (Seven were shot down by Hurricanes). This resulted in the deaths of thirty-two aircrew with seven others injured. Nineteen other aircraft were damaged by being fired upon by mistake.€

€œThe area around Imber on the Salisbury Plain in England, comprising of around 91,000 acres, is the traditional training ground for the British Army. On April 13, 1942, during a demonstration of fire-power from a squadron of Hurricanes, the pilot of the 6th plane to make the attack inadvertently fired into the crowd of invited military spectators. He had mistaken the spectators for the rows of dummy soldiers placed on the ground as if in marching order. The demonstration was immediately cancelled and all aircraft ordered to return to base. Fifteen minutes later some thirty military and civilian ambulances arrived to convey the dead and injured to hospitals. Twenty five officers and men were killed and seventy one injured. The Hurricane pilot, just approaching his 21st birthday, was found guilty of an error of judgement by the Court of Inquiry. (On June 28, 1942, seventy-six days after the tragic incident, he was shot down and reported missing in a sortie over Cherbourg).€

During the attack on Cherbourg on 22 June 1944, ground forces (primarily the US 9th and 79th Infantry Divisions) undertook to mark the front lines by yellow smoke and the bomb line, 1,500 yards in advance, by white smoke fired from mortars.30 The results were uniformly poor. No yellow smoke was visible, and every few minutes a mortar would fire two or three shells, the smoke from which quickly dissipated in the wind and dust of battle.31 The result of poor marking was inevitable. Some planes of the British 2d TAF (RAF) and the American Ninth Air Force attacked the wrong area and caused friendly casualties. The proportion of the aircraft so doing was relatively small (perhaps only ten out of 700 fighter-bombers involved) but the small proportion did little to alleviate the pain and destruction in the units hit. Ironically, Generals Schlatter and Nugent from HQ AAEAF were strafed by the RAF en route to Lt. Gen. J. Lawton Collin's VII Corps HQ to witness the air attack.32

€œDuring the main effort of Canadian and Polish ground units against Falaise on 14 August 1944, more than 800 RAF and RCAF heavy and medium bombers supported the attack by dropping 3,700 tons of bombs in the target area. Canadian and Polish units suffered almost 400 casualties when several bomb loads fell short of target, but the attack nevertheless advanced to within three miles of Falaise on the first day€¦.€

€œThe Typhoon's first large-scale combat over Dieppe further proved that its rearward vision was wholly inadequate as they had been bounced from above and behind three times in the day's flights for the loss of two aircraft, one of which fell to a Canadian Spitfire€¦.As a side note Typhoon partisans might have been forgiven thinking that the Spitfire lobby was taking things a bit far when a number of Typhoons were shot down by Spitfire pilots who confused it with marauding Fw 190 fighter-bombers before they learned to differentiate between the radial-engined German fighter and the inline-engined Typhoon with its massive chin radiator.€

Ken Macdonald, CO of RAF 93 Squadron was shot down by gunfire from British troops as he tried to land his Spitfire at a newly constructed airbase during the Salerno campaign.

€œSquadron Leader Dave Glaser was an RAF pilot mistakenly shot down off Plymouth, Devon, by a British warship during the Battle of Britain. €œ

TX-Gunslinger
02-12-2005, 03:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ploughman:
Great pilots, and within the the narrow confines of air to air combat, great acheivements. But considering who they were working for, and that the pilots they killed would otherwise have been home with their wives having normal lives, I'll with-hold my respect. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ploughman,

May I submit for your consideration, that this discussion is about the narrow confines of "air to air combat" ?


All Americans are not "Evil Capitalists"
All Texans do not believe in the death penalty.
All my fine British friends are not "Imperialists"
All my Russian friends are not ........ etc etc etc

and the vast majority of the German forces in WWII, were not Nazi's or SS, nor did they have knowledge of, or support the absolute evil of their political system. Marsielle was obviously of French ancestry, while Rudorffer was Saxon and I hope that irony is not lost on you.

I surmised from your profile that you are from the UK. If I'm correct then, it's actually your countryman who have provided so much "fair minded" insight to the English speaking world about the character of that war. British historians and visionaries like Liddell-Hart have provided me with invaluable insight into the difference between the soldier and the politician.

The evil wrought upon the world by Adolf Hitler and his cronies is unquestionable and tragic. The Allied people of all occupied countries, most of all the Russians who lost 25 million people in that war (surpassed only by China), suffered inconcievably and irreparably. If it makes you feel better, take a good look at what the state of Germany was by the spring of 1945. The German politicians created the situation, and the German people, soldiers, sailors and airman, bore the brunt of the revenge. As usual, there is enough blame to go around on all sides, and we get nowhere.

The airman of World War II ON ALL SIDES, and their equipment, tactics, and backgrounds that we admire, discuss, debate and explore should be isolated from the policies of their respective governments where possible. I believe that this is necessary, in order to truely understand and experience what happended in the air.

What happended in the air, then, is within the context of this sim/game, for Oleg has not modeled politics. If we keep bringing nationalism (root tool utilized to manipulate all parties within the war) to the table, then we'll never get anywhere.

Pardon me for the long winded reply, and becuase I picked your post to respond to. It was just the first post along these lines. I do understand your why you feel that way, I think, and only wish to explain myself.

I admire many airman across all nations in the conflict. War sucks.

S~ Sir

jensenpark
02-12-2005, 03:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brotrob:
By the way, after the war ALL his claims/kills have been confirmed by the british officials, after they doupted it and did a long research in their archives. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny, Johnnie Johnson in Wing Leader made a comment that his research showed that on the day Marseilles claimed those 17 kills, the Brits recorded no such losses...can't recall exactly the issue, but there were no losses at all of the type on the entire front on the day the 17 were claimed.

Achilles97
02-12-2005, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:

...

In 1944 Rudorffer's Gruppe engaged a large flight of 60 IL-2's. He shot down 9 Sturmoviks in 10 minutes. On his second sortie, he shot down another 2 Soviet aircraft in 2 minutes, making his score for the day 11.

...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

9 IL2s with a single load of ammo? WOW. If I get 100% hit accuracy in our game I can take down maybe four or five. It makes me question how realistic it is when I see a Sturmovik flying perfectly with 50% of it's surface area gone.

xxcurarexx
02-12-2005, 05:23 PM
Gunslinger, thx for the clarification. Interesting, indeed. I'll trust the info from your book as it is more focused on the particular subject of 109s.

oh, and no, I'm not a journalist...

EFG_beber
02-12-2005, 05:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brotrob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by EFG_beber:

Do you have a link about the confirmed kills for Priller and other pilots?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For all interested in Luftwaffe-Aces Strongly recomend this Site:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/index.html

It containst the most detailed and complete information on Experten I ever found on the www. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the link.

But do you have a link about the confirmed Priller kills and other aces.

Lucius_Esox
02-12-2005, 06:01 PM
Ahem,
TX-Gunslinger,

High minded words,
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________

"The airman of World War II ON ALL SIDES, and their equipment, tactics, and backgrounds that we admire, discuss, debate and explore should be isolated from the policies of their respective governments where possible. I believe that this is necessary, in order to truely understand and experience what happended in the air."
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


Are we discussing some sort of fine wine here! Methinks we are in danger of "sanitising" the events that occured in the air in the 2ww. Putting them on a higher plane. No one is fully sure how many people lost their lives in the 2ww. But I am pretty sure thus far that when we are dead, we are dead. Some are better at making people "dead" than others. I don't particularly admire the people on my "side" who were good at it but it enabled my "side" to flourish and survive. I personally believe that was a good thing.

My concern is that making heroes out of these people is dangerous. For sure they were masters at their craft, but what a craft! Gloryfying war? Do you not think that this is part of the proccess that makes war more palatable to the "uninformed", thus making us all the more ready, eager even, to do the same bl00dy thing again!

I'm a basic human being and I know that if my friend was killed deliberatly by someone, and I knew who that someone was, I would hate him, simple. Abstracting the events doesn't detract from this. We seem very keen to put a human face on the tragedy that must be war. Descriptions of how airmen were chivalrous in their opinions of each other, is, imo, dubious. Anyone with an ounce of humanity if given the choice of having their friends/loved one's back, at the expense of chivalry would, I believe, do so.

We are discussing this esentially in the context of a game, a great one, but that is what it is, war aint!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cajun76
02-12-2005, 06:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Achilles97:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:

...

In 1944 Rudorffer's Gruppe engaged a large flight of 60 IL-2's. He shot down 9 Sturmoviks in 10 minutes. On his second sortie, he shot down another 2 Soviet aircraft in 2 minutes, making his score for the day 11.

...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

9 IL2s with a single load of ammo? WOW. If I get 100% hit accuracy in our game I can take down maybe four or five. It makes me question how realistic it is when I see a Sturmovik flying perfectly with 50% of it's surface area gone. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Blame the game for not focusing your fire on the engine, cockpit or oil cooler. Try turning off Realistic Gunnery if it suits your taste more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

VF-29_Sandman
02-12-2005, 06:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
Ahem,
TX-Gunslinger,

High minded words,
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________

"The airman of World War II ON ALL SIDES, and their equipment, tactics, and backgrounds that we admire, discuss, debate and explore should be isolated from the policies of their respective governments where possible. I believe that this is necessary, in order to truely understand and experience what happended in the air."
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


Are we discussing some sort of fine wine here! Methinks we are in danger of "sanitising" the events that occured in the air in the 2ww. Putting them on a higher plane. No one is fully sure how many people lost their lives in the 2ww. But I am pretty sure thus far that when we are dead, we are dead. Some are better at making people "dead" than others. I don't particularly admire the people on my "side" who were good at it but it enabled my "side" to flourish and survive. I personally believe that was a good thing.

My concern is that making heroes out of these people is dangerous. For sure they were masters at their craft, but what a craft! Gloryfying war? Do you not think that this is part of the proccess that makes war more palatable to the "uninformed", thus making us all the more ready, eager even, to do the same bl00dy thing again!

I'm a basic human being and I know that if my friend was killed deliberatly by someone, and I knew who that someone was, I would hate him, simple. Abstracting the events doesn't detract from this. We seem very keen to put a human face on the tragedy that must be war. Descriptions of how airmen were chivalrous in their opinions of each other, is, imo, dubious. Anyone with an ounce of humanity if given the choice of having their friends/loved one's back, at the expense of chivalry would, I believe, do so.

We are discussing this esentially in the context of a game, a great one, but that is what it is, war aint!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
sounds like some1 should just close fb forever and never open it again. next to vietnam for the u.s., ww2 was the most brutal war in the history of mankind. today's games are getting more and more realistic. i wouldnt be surprized if in bob, it would be possible to actually shoot the canopy off, or shoot a bomb on the holding rack and blow the plane apart.

Lucius_Esox
02-12-2005, 06:31 PM
Point taken Sandman,
I just hope it never happens again. But I love this game waaaay too much to stop playing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WereSnowleopard
02-12-2005, 09:00 PM
Yes, I knew him for long time. He is so brat boy as black sheep. He love listen banned music jazz. Also he is big time practic joker. Also he is one of very rare pilot who is master on energy maneuvering.

Great article on his training method: "Marseille's self-training program

* Vision - Marseille decided to adapt his eyes to the powerful desert sun and the dry desert atmosphere and to adapt his body to the desert's conditions. He stopped wearing sun glasses, deliberately exposed his eyes to the desert sun, and shifted from alcohol to milk. He also noticed that in the intensely lit dry desert atmosphere, aircraft can be detected from greater distances than over Europe and deduced that hiding and surprise are less practical over the desert than in the cloudy sky over europe.
* G-Force - Marseille worked endlessly to strengthen his abdominal and leg muscles in order to enhance his ability to sustain higher G-Force and for longer durations during dogfights better than the average fighter pilot. G-Force is the enormous centrifugal force experienced when a fighter aircraft makes sharp turns during dogfight. The modern G-suit that helps pilots sustain it was not yet invented in world war 2.
* Aerobatics - Marseille used every opportunity to perform breathtaking aerobatics. In addition to free entertainment to his friends on the ground, this also gave him an outstanding control and confidence in extremely maneuvering his Messerschmitt 109 aircraft.
* Marksmanship - Marseille spent his unused ammunition practicing firing at ground objects and trained a lot not just in plain strafing but also in high deflection shooting while in a sharp turn, which is much harder.
* Intelligence - he began to read every possible intelligence information he could find in order to maximize his knowledge and understanding of the enemy.
* Tactics - That's where Marseille marked himself as a great innovator of air warfare, and he kept improving. He claimed that in the perfect visual conditions over the desert, large formations are in a visual disadvantage against highly maneuvering single aircraft. He preferred to fight alone, with a single wingman providing warnings from a safe distance. He claimed that when fighting alone in a short range dogfight, he could quickly fire at anything he saw, while the attacked formation's pilots were confused, hesitated, and switched to a defensive position that further increased the lone attacker's chances. He also claimed that fighting alone eliminates the high risk of firing at or colliding with a wingman in such extreme maneuvering. Marseille said that in such conditions, there's a lower chance and too little time for the usual chase attack method, and preferred to use high angle deflection firing from short range while making a sharp turn. In doing so, he never used his gun sight and instead fired a very short burst at the passing target in the split second when its leading edge, its propeller, disappeared from his eyes behind his aircraft's nose. He calculated that when firing a short burst at this position, his gun rounds will hit the target's engine and cockpit, and he trained in this unorthodox aiming method on his friends (without firing) many times and perfected his ability to use it. He deduced that over the desert, a fighter pilot can become "invisible" only by extreme maneuvers at close range, and that the intensity of the maneuvering was more important than the speed of flying." http://www.2worldwar2.com/marseille.htm

Regards
Snowleopard

wayno7777
02-12-2005, 09:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jensenpark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brotrob:
By the way, after the war ALL his claims/kills have been confirmed by the british officials, after they doupted it and did a long research in their archives. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny, Johnnie Johnson in Wing Leader made a comment that his research showed that on the day Marseilles claimed those 17 kills, the Brits recorded no such losses...can't recall exactly the issue, but there were no losses at all of the type on the entire front on the day the 17 were claimed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was said after the war that the RAF didn't lose that many fighters in the entire Middle East as were confirmed to Marseille that day. However, official records show the RAF lost 13 shot down, and that another 6 crash-landed after being hit, for a total of 19. Others were hit. Of the 19, 2 were Spitfires, 8 Curtiss types, and 9 Hurricanes.

It is ironic then, that H.J. Marseille and J. Johnson's pictures are next to each other on the cover of the paperback, "The Greatest Aces" by Edward H. Sims.

WereSnowleopard
02-12-2005, 09:14 PM
CHeck that funny link: http://www.geocities.com/vienna/5373/esoteric/jeremy-irons-theory.htm

flockzap
02-12-2005, 09:27 PM
Check his book at amazon. I bought it in January and half-way to finish it...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/0887405177/ref=olp_tab_collectible/002-6339061-5321607?%5Fencoding=UTF8&condition=collectible

Flockzap

Brotrob
02-13-2005, 01:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jensenpark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brotrob:
By the way, after the war ALL his claims/kills have been confirmed by the british officials, after they doupted it and did a long research in their archives.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny, Johnnie Johnson in Wing Leader made a comment that his research showed that on the day Marseilles claimed those 17 kills, the Brits recorded no such losses...can't recall exactly the issue, but there were no losses at all of the type on the entire front on the day the 17 were claimed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello jensenpark,

I was refering to my previous post on Joseph Priller. All of Prillers kills have been confirmed after the war by british officials.

I don't know if it was done with Marseilles kills in the same high accuracy. But that statement "no losses at all" is just wrong. RAF lost more than 17 fighters that day. And it was not rare that Marseille was the only one of his Staffel to score any kills some days.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by EFG_beber:

Thanks for the link.

But do you have a link about the confirmed Priller kills and other aces.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello Beber,

just look a bit deeper into this amazing Site. If you click on "Luftwaffe Experten" you see a List of all of them this site contains. Then click on Priler:
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/priller.html
and wait till fully loaded. You will see a list of all his 101 confirmed kills with date, location and airplane flown/shoot down and more. Also works with all other aces on this Site.

Best Greetings

jensenpark
02-13-2005, 08:12 AM
Hey Brotrob: sorry, misread your post. Didn't realize you were referring to Priller.

What JEJ was referring to in regards to the 'no losses' was a specific type of plane Marseilles claimed. I cannot remember exactly what - but apparently Marseilles claimed a large amount of a type (say p40 for example) that day, and Brit records show not a single P40 lost that day on the entire front. Now I can't remember if it was p40 or Hurricane, but you get the drift.
JEJ is stating the legendary 17 kill day was a complete falsehood.
Don't really know of course what is true, whether grossly inflated claims or jealous revisionism by JEJ...
But records are records...and all sides seemed to have shown loss records are accurate.

Brotrob
02-13-2005, 09:01 AM
Hello,

this are the 16 (later it was said it were 17) kills Marseille scored that day.
As I know at least these 16 could be confirmed wit allied sources.

from the Schiffer Book " The Life Story of the Star of Africa":


0826 hrs, a Curtiss, SE of Imayid.
0828 hrs, a Curtiss, SE of Imayid.
0835 hrs, a Curtiss, SE of Imayid.
0839 hrs, a Curtiss, SE of Imayid.
1055 hrs, a Curtiss, SE of Alam Haifa.
1056 hrs, a Curtiss, SE of Alam Haifa.
1058 hrs, a Curtiss, SE of Alam Haifa.
1059 hrs, a Curtiss, SE of Alam Haifa.
1101 hrs, a Curtiss, SE of Alam Haifa.
1103 hrs, a Curtiss, SE of Alam Haifa.
1105 hrs, a Curtiss, SE of Alam Haifa.
1747 hrs, a Curtiss, SE of Imayid.
1748 hrs, a Curtiss, SE of Imayid.
1749 hrs, a Curtiss, SE of Imayid.
1750 hrs, a Curtiss, SE of Imayid.
1753 hrs, a Curtiss, SE of Imayid.

Perhaps someone knows more ?

OldMan____
02-13-2005, 09:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ploughman:
Great pilots, and within the the narrow confines of air to air combat, great acheivements. But considering who they were working for, and that the pilots they killed would otherwise have been home with their wives having normal lives, I'll with-hold my respect. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Ploughman,

May I submit for your consideration, that this discussion is about the narrow confines of "air to air combat" ?


All Americans are not "Evil Capitalists"
All Texans do not believe in the death penalty.
All my fine British friends are not "Imperialists"
All my Russian friends are not ........ etc etc etc

and the vast majority of the German forces in WWII, were not Nazi's or SS, nor did they have knowledge of, or support the absolute evil of their political system. Marsielle was obviously of French ancestry, while Rudorffer was Saxon and I hope that irony is not lost on you.

I surmised from your profile that you are from the UK. If I'm correct then, it's actually your countryman who have provided so much "fair minded" insight to the English speaking world about the character of that war. British historians and visionaries like Liddell-Hart have provided me with invaluable insight into the difference between the soldier and the politician.

The evil wrought upon the world by Adolf Hitler and his cronies is unquestionable and tragic. The Allied people of all occupied countries, most of all the Russians who lost 25 million people in that war (surpassed only by China), suffered inconcievably and irreparably. If it makes you feel better, take a good look at what the state of Germany was by the spring of 1945. The German politicians created the situation, and the German people, soldiers, sailors and airman, bore the brunt of the revenge. As usual, there is enough blame to go around on all sides, and we get nowhere.

The airman of World War II ON ALL SIDES, and their equipment, tactics, and backgrounds that we admire, discuss, debate and explore should be isolated from the policies of their respective governments where possible. I believe that this is necessary, in order to truely understand and experience what happended in the air.

What happended in the air, then, is within the context of this sim/game, for Oleg has modeled politics. If we keep bringing nationalism (root tool utilized to manipulate all parties within the war) to the table, then we'll never get anywhere.

Pardon me for the long winded reply, and becuase I picked your post to respond to. It was just the first post along these lines. I do understand your why you feel that way, I think, and only wish to explain myself.

I admire many airman across all nations in the conflict. War sucks.

S~ Sir <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of best post in this forum.. ever.

Just remember people... more people die in this world of hunger and plagues per year than in whole AIR KILLS during whole WW2. But no one seems to be so angered about the richest countries that cause the poverty on some regions of this world.

So blame yourself next time you buy a new car when your old one is perfectly good for use... when you upgrade your computer... when you throw away food.

WW2 is just so much remembered because it hit hard the rich world... And these countries are suceeded exactly because of things like WW2, things that united its poeple.. and teached to face adversities. So the poeple who fought on any sides, not because they wanted, but because they needed.. these are all to deserve some respect.

War sucks.. but our peace is not much better for many people.

Dengue.ZA
02-13-2005, 09:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>he would have been at about 700 kills by wars end. double hartmann. with less sorties.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spare a thought for the outstanding Sous-Lt James Denis of the Free French who shot Marseille down twice over Tobruk long before he went on his incredible scoring run.

Yes Marseille could have got 700 had he lived longer, but he could have just as easily died with a fairly anonymous 7.

MOhz
02-13-2005, 09:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ploughman:
Great pilots, and within the the narrow confines of air to air combat, great acheivements. But considering who they were working for, and that the pilots they killed would otherwise have been home with their wives having normal lives, I'll with-hold my respect. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Ploughman,

May I submit for your consideration, that this discussion is about the narrow confines of "air to air combat" ?


All Americans are not "Evil Capitalists"
All Texans do not believe in the death penalty.
All my fine British friends are not "Imperialists"
All my Russian friends are not ........ etc etc etc

and the vast majority of the German forces in WWII, were not Nazi's or SS, nor did they have knowledge of, or support the absolute evil of their political system. Marsielle was obviously of French ancestry, while Rudorffer was Saxon and I hope that irony is not lost on you.

I surmised from your profile that you are from the UK. If I'm correct then, it's actually your countryman who have provided so much "fair minded" insight to the English speaking world about the character of that war. British historians and visionaries like Liddell-Hart have provided me with invaluable insight into the difference between the soldier and the politician.

The evil wrought upon the world by Adolf Hitler and his cronies is unquestionable and tragic. The Allied people of all occupied countries, most of all the Russians who lost 25 million people in that war (surpassed only by China), suffered inconcievably and irreparably. If it makes you feel better, take a good look at what the state of Germany was by the spring of 1945. The German politicians created the situation, and the German people, soldiers, sailors and airman, bore the brunt of the revenge. As usual, there is enough blame to go around on all sides, and we get nowhere.

The airman of World War II ON ALL SIDES, and their equipment, tactics, and backgrounds that we admire, discuss, debate and explore should be isolated from the policies of their respective governments where possible. I believe that this is necessary, in order to truely understand and experience what happended in the air.

What happended in the air, then, is within the context of this sim/game, for Oleg has modeled politics. If we keep bringing nationalism (root tool utilized to manipulate all parties within the war) to the table, then we'll never get anywhere.

Pardon me for the long winded reply, and becuase I picked your post to respond to. It was just the first post along these lines. I do understand your why you feel that way, I think, and only wish to explain myself.

I admire many airman across all nations in the conflict. War sucks.

S~ Sir <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of best post in this forum.. ever.

Just remember people... more people die in this world of hunger and plagues per year than in whole AIR KILLS during whole WW2. But no one seems to be so angered about the richest countries that cause the poverty on some regions of this world.

So blame yourself next time you buy a new car when your old one is perfectly good for use... when you upgrade your computer... when you throw away food.

WW2 is just so much remembered because it hit hard the rich world... And these countries are suceeded exactly because of things like WW2, things that united its poeple.. and teached to face adversities. So the poeple who fought on any sides, not because they wanted, but because they needed.. these are all to deserve some respect.

War sucks.. but our peace is not much better for many people. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oldman, this is the post I have been waiting for.

EFG_beber
02-13-2005, 09:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brotrob:
Hello Beber,

just look a bit deeper into this amazing Site. If you click on "Luftwaffe Experten" you see a List of all of them this site contains. Then click on Priler:
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/priller.html
and wait till fully loaded. You will see a list of all his 101 confirmed kills with date, location and airplane flown/shoot down and more. Also works with all other aces on this Site.

Best Greetings <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This Kills are confirmed by the british officials?
Are you sure?

Brotrob
02-13-2005, 09:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EFG_beber:
This Kills are confirmed by the british officials?
Are you sure?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sure, defenitly. This wa an popular issiue, in the case of Priller (who shot down so many of their masterpiece, the Spitfire), the british wanted do prof, that german aces overclaimed marginaly. But they had to admit that ALL kills could EXACTLY be confirmed with british losses. Date, a/c type and location. I will look after the two guy who were responsible for this research, two well known british WWII specialists. Have to look in my sources..

Greetings

EFG_beber
02-13-2005, 09:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brotrob:
I will look after the two guy who were responsible for this research, two well known british WWII specialists. Have to look in my sources..

Greetings <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I will appreciate. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Thanks

TX-Gunslinger
02-13-2005, 01:16 PM
Hello Old_Man and MOhz. Thanks for your kind words.

I need to make a correction to my post, and while I changed the original, that won't change the quotes and I don't want anyone to misunderstand.

I left out the word "not", in:

"What happended in the air, then, is within the context of this sim/game, for Oleg has modeled politics."



It should read

"What happended in the air, then, is within the context of this sim/game, for Oleg has NOT modeled politics."

Thank you.

Bsnakeman
02-13-2005, 02:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>... A brilliant marksman (he averaged only fifteen rounds per victory), Marseille once scored 17 victories, all RAF fighters, in a single day."... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Of course he wasn´t using our MG 151/20...

stathem
02-13-2005, 03:01 PM
No, he didn't often use the cannon, that's 15 rifle calibre bullets per victory..

slingsby
02-13-2005, 03:52 PM
One I came across the other day was the Avro Anson pilot who when attacked by 9 bf109s over Dunkirk, managed to shoot down 2 and damage another.
How the hell did he manage that in an Anson?

WereSnowleopard
02-13-2005, 04:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slingsby:
One I came across the other day was the Avro Anson pilot who when attacked by 9 bf109s over Dunkirk, managed to shoot down 2 and damage another.
How the hell did he manage that in an Anson? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
"Anson MKV flown by pilot officer Phillip Peters was leading a petrol of three Ansons of No 500 Royal Auxiliary Air Force Squadron over Dunkirk at the time the British Expeditionary Forces were evacuating from the beaches. He was flying at around 50ft. when his mid upper gunner reported that nine Bf109's were attacking. Dropping wave-top height the slow obsolescent twin engined aircraft tried to shake off their pursuers. Two planes were severely damaged and Peters sent them home, leaving his own aircraft at the mercy of the enemy fighters.

It was at this point that Peters was grateful for his 'secret weapons'. In addition to the Anson's nose gun and mid upper turret, guns had been fitted projecting out of the sides of the aircraft's long 'greenhouse' cabin. The extra guns were manned by the co-pilot and wireless operator. By throttling back and executing a number of skid turns Peters was able to out manoeuvre the enemy and allow his crew to fire on the attackers.

The first Bf109 was finished off with the nose gun as it did a stall turn in front off the aircraft. The second was shot down into the sea. A third attacker sustained heavy damage and turned tail with the other pursuers.

Peters set course for Detling. The news of the battle went on ahead of his arrival and he was greeted by applause and cheering of the squadron personnel.

When the aircraft was inspected, only one bullet hole was found. It wasn't until later when he had his parachute repacked that another armour piercing bullet was found lodged in the silk. For the attack and morale boosting effect for the rest of the squadron, Peters was awarded the DFC. The remaining crew, Sergeant Spencer, Corporal Smith, Leading Aircraftsman Dillnutt and Leading Aircraftsman Cunningham all received the Distinguished Flying Medal"
http://www.military-art.com/dhm1074.htm

Regards
Snowleopard

ploughman
02-13-2005, 04:44 PM
TX-Gunslinger. I'm not quite sure where you're coming from (and I've thought about it a while) but my point was that while the Nazi pilot in question was undoubtably one of the best, if not the best, practitioners of aerial combat ever, he was nevertheless an instrument of evil and a dastardly fellow thereof. Perhaps you think that such distinctions are understood, and if so, good for you.
There's a wind in Europe at the moment that blows along the lines of, Nazis are victims too, look how we suffered, gosh how you bombed us, and maybe there's some mileage in that. However, if you willingly raised a rifle for Hitler you became an agent of evil, and I was just reminding the readership that Mr Marseilles was a tool of the Nazis whether Mr Marseilles liked it or not. Of course it comes as no suprise to us poms that Mr Marseilles might be of French ancestory, we've had alot of trouble with that lot over the years (today at Twickenham for example) but I hope you're not implying that being of one extraction makes a person closer to the devil than another. Ethnic origin only matters to the oppressor. Any road, if you're piqued that I suggested one should not respect Nazi aces, I'm sure you understand that I didn't mean you as you clearly understand the difference between a good shot and a Nazi bastard. Keep reading books.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG7_Rall
02-13-2005, 07:00 PM
Does anyone have any paintings that are of 109's in the desert big enough to use as a 1028 background? I was specifically looking for "Hunters in the Desert" by Robert Taylor, but couldn't find it large enough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

joe3rd
02-13-2005, 07:43 PM
Ya figure the facts of those stat's, and can still give all the credit to the pilot alone?
the 109F in it's day was the worlds premeir fighter aircraft, you can prove this in your own offine quack, erh,.. I mean quick mission builder. Set yourself up with a spitfire and your A.I. with the 109F set him to average and try him for 5 falls most of the time you will lose as the 109 had a better climb/decent rate than anything at the time. there's even a post on simhq about it from an actual WWII pilot.
try it and check the P/F Main Page for interesting reads it is there

joe3rd
02-13-2005, 08:02 PM
I've noticed you give a lot of credit to Capt Marseillie, whom was probabley a fair pilot with a lot of ####'*. But none to his ground crew whom maintained his aircraft and probabley setup his sites for him, Nor to the German Machinist whom made the parts for his aircraft, and none to the Engineers whom with paper and pencil where able to design the world's best fighter aircraft at that time period. think of the logistics and support personnel that went into mfging and maintaining that aircraft, and stack that against the actual stats and tell us who's kills those actually where?
In Rickenhoffens day it was the man not the crate, but in WWII it was almost assuredley the logistic's as any fool can point and pull a trigger

JG7_Rall
02-13-2005, 09:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by joe3rd:
I've noticed you give a lot of credit to Capt Marseillie, whom was probabley a fair pilot with a lot of ####'*. But none to his ground crew whom maintained his aircraft and probabley setup his sites for him, Nor to the German Machinist whom made the parts for his aircraft, and none to the Engineers whom with paper and pencil where able to design the world's best fighter aircraft at that time period. think of the logistics and support personnel that went into mfging and maintaining that aircraft, and stack that against the actual stats and tell us who's kills those actually where?
In Rickenhoffens day it was the man not the crate, but in WWII it was almost assuredley the logistic's as any fool can point and pull a trigger <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Point and pull the trigger? You've gotta be kidding me. I guess you've been playing arcade IL2 too long and have forgotten what you've read (if anything) about real combat in WWII. Point and shoot doesn't apply to any pilot back in WWII, even a relatively easy kill wasn't easy. And if you knew anything about Marseille you'd know what an amazing shot he was.

WereSnowleopard
02-13-2005, 09:45 PM
Black crew do get special respect from pilots like Erich Hartmann have very dear friend "Bimmel" Mertens and he contact him after he release from Soviet prison and stay friend. Also, Marseilles have his best friend who take care of him as he is Africa native so he earn respect too. Try picture yourself own a 1942 race car as racing in 1942...how reliable engine as go racing on? Then drivers will have to treat mechanics nice ever reward them well if winning so Pilots in 1942 give credit to support crew even give credit to all other like plane and engine builders My analogy to Nascar (USA car racing) whoever nascar driver win champion will lead all support crew to get very good resumes even bonus/promotions!
I bet someone who still active in Navy or Air Force as pilots, will tell you how special support crew/engineers are for work hard on planes to make sure pilots will able return home safety without breakdown over emeny line or over sea even not get shot down.

Regards
Snowleopard

P.S. Take a look at F1 formula as drvier/crew/engieer/sponsor earn credit for champions ...who earn credit most in Formula F1 winning...drivers or Ferrari or both or whole group?

WereSnowleopard
02-13-2005, 09:57 PM
I noticed someone said that Marseilles' kill score may be lying so is US/RAF/VVS/IJN/RAAF/FAF/ and more of them, did lying about their kill score? Did Bong score 40 kills? I already read many article on luftwaffe how strict they are on kill score that many kills don't count if can not find proof.

Also interesting story about one of LW ace who score unoffical kills but not report to aviod get trouble "At only 28 years of age, he was promoted to Oberst and appointed Inspector General of Fighters on 7 August. Even though ordered to cease flying combat missions, he continued to do so and achieved several unconfirmed victories over the Crimea." Werner "Vati" M¶lders http://www.luftwaffe.cz/molders.html

Regards
Snowleopard

Nero111
02-13-2005, 11:58 PM
They were all a different breed in those days.
I am in awe of them, amazing, great post.

Jesters-Ink
02-14-2005, 12:37 AM
Yeah but what he didn€t tell you is, he flew cockpit off and used unrealistic ballistics. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

TX-Gunslinger
02-14-2005, 01:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ploughman:
TX-Gunslinger. I'm not quite sure where you're coming from (and I've thought about it a while) but my point was that while the Nazi pilot in question was undoubtably one of the best, if not the best, practitioners of aerial combat ever, he was nevertheless an instrument of evil and a dastardly fellow thereof. Perhaps you think that such distinctions are understood, and if so, good for you. There's a wind in Europe at the moment that blows along the lines of, Nazis are victims too, look how we suffered, gosh how you bombed us, and maybe there's some mileage in that. However, if you willingly raised a rifle for Hitler you became an agent of evil, and I was just reminding the readership that Mr Marseilles was a tool of the Nazis whether Mr Marseilles liked it or not. Of course it comes as no suprise to us poms that Mr Marseilles might be of French ancestory, we've had alot of trouble with that lot over the years (today at Twickenham for example) but I hope you're not implying that being of one extraction makes a person closer to the devil than another. Ethnic origin only matters to the oppressor. Any road, if you're piqued that I suggested one should not respect Nazi aces, I'm sure you understand that I didn't mean you as you clearly understand the difference between a good shot and a Nazi bastard. Keep reading books.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand your point, and appreciate your eloquent reply. I understand also your concerns with respect to the rise of neo-facism.

You continually use the term "Nazi" pilot. Why? Do you know he was a Nazi? Or was he just a very young and junior German officer, believing he was supporting his country. In respect, and out of consideration, I know you use that term because it's a common term. But there are many common terms that we don't use any more because of their racial sterotypes. If you want an Nazi pilot the perhaps Hans Ulrich Rudel would fit the bill. Why? He incessantly ran his mouth about it so much, that even his peers and superiors made fun of him for it. Of course, they did so behind his back as he was sort of well connected.

As a vetern of the U.S. Armed Forces for 14 years, and a military consultant for the past 15 years, perhaps I'm a little too close to the issue. The issue for me is that readers of the forum understand that military personnel are at the whim of the political structure of a nation,i.e. "tools of the state". I would submit to you that the first step toward racism is actually fear-based generalization. Were the little children fire-bombed in Dresden at night Nazi's. I hope you see that these innocents were no more Nazi's than the little British children who were fire-bombed at night in London.

Are your soldiers stationed in Iraq Torries? Are our soldiers Republican's? Were Russian soldiers in the past Communists? Were the soldiers of the Republican Guard in Iraq actually willing Baathists? Unless there is a military revolt, military personnel have no control of the political system. They may be manipulated by it, but are not responsible for it.

In my military career, the Republicans were in charge, then the Democrats were in charge and then the Republicans were in charge. So what did that make me?

The Nazi party won elections in 1932, to become the largest party in the German government, but without majority. The German people did this, not the military.

Of course, while some military leaders supported Hitler, in the early years many did not (they paid for it later), come to think of it, those leaders who did support Hitler paid for it too, eventually. Hitler and the Nazi's were a "no-win" sort of proposition for anyone.

Some time after the passage of the Enabling Act in 1933, which gave Hitler dicatorial powers, ALL members of the armed forces were forced to sign an oath of allegience to the Nazi regime. Forced means "ordered to".

So if our soldiers, sailors and airman don't like the political system, mandated by the people or the people's representatives what should they do? Revolt and overthrow the government? We have a few military dictatorships on the planet today. They don't seem to be a great deal removed from the facist regimes you deplore.

For my own personnel behavior in this manner, I don't respect (but do know something of) certain well-known Nazi's who were very vocal supporters of the regime, like Hans Ulrich Rudel and Field Marshall Walter Model.

I will not fly a skin with a swastika on it, because it is offensive to many (and I clearly don't want that or I would'nt take so much time in writing here), out of respect for those who suffered so much (particularly Jewish, Eastern European, Western European and Germans too) and because I loathe what Nazism represents. Unfortunatly, we have made that symbol so important, and so powerful in the post-war years by our fear of what it represents. We give such power to inantimate objects, don't you think?

I did not take your post as a personal affront. I do however believe that this forum would be better served if we could focus on the simulation and those issues within it's context. This discussion is bordering on violations of the "Rules of Conduct" for this Forum and I personally wish all references, including your first post, my response, all similar and all future posts of this nature, be deleted by the moderators. Then we could focus on what I and I know many others, including yourself I expect, come to this fine simulation for.

If it makes you feel any better, I have been following these forums for over three years, flying the sim online with significant interaction among many pilots, and I have yet to encounter a "neo-nazi". I believe that most users understand these fine points, and if they don't, then there is not much we can say that will change their minds.


Very Respectfully,

S~

Nero111
02-14-2005, 02:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jesters-Ink:
Yeah but what he didn€t tell you is, he flew cockpit off and used unrealistic ballistics. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wahahaha, good one.
I'd kick his *** on full real, hehehe.

Jasko76
02-14-2005, 02:51 AM
Let's not confuse Marseilles with pilots like Günther Rall, Adolf Galland and Heinz Knoke - they may have flown for their country, people and squad mates, not giving a **** about nazi ideology. But Marseilles was like Nowotny, they embraced and supported nazi ideology wholehartedly, would have been great SS soldiers.

While I admire them as pilots, I think they were very bad HUMAN beings.

Who knows, had Marseilles lived longer he may have been able to realize errors of his leader, but as it were he died when Germany stood at the top of their power.

Would he have lived to score 700 kills? Quite unlikely. In the weeks before his death, Marseilles started showing signs of severe fatigue, he became burned out, started making errors. You do that in a war, you die. He was an exhibitionist, liked to show off, perform crazy maneuvers,unlike Hartmann who had a very cool approach and waited for that perfect moment to strike. Apparently a good approach to aerial combat.

As for von Richthofen being shot down by another aircraft, a Camel - not true. He was shot by an Aussie gunner, crash landed and died a few minutes later.

Fehler
02-14-2005, 03:13 AM
You know, this thread was started to show the amazing abilities of some pilots of WWII.

What it has truly shown is that after 60 odd years, we a a people in general learned nothing from World War II. Racial and ethnical bigotry are still alive and well in the human soul.

Classifing every German who fought in WWII as a Nazi is as good as saying that every white person in America is a slave owner. Or every Muslim is a terrorist. Or every... well I could go on forever.

And truthfully, the people that have such a desire to lump/classify others are the true bigots that learned nothing from the deaths of millions... Hell, there are lives that are being lost, even today, for reasons of racial or ethnic hatred. When will we learn?

There is an old saying that goes something like, "If we forget about the past, we are doomed to repeat it." Bullhockey! We are destined to repeast history, because we are human. Just like Arnold (T100) said in Terminator II, "It is in our nature to destroy ourselves."

We just cant help it I guess... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Atomic_Marten
02-14-2005, 04:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Achilles97:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:

...

In 1944 Rudorffer's Gruppe engaged a large flight of 60 IL-2's. He shot down 9 Sturmoviks in 10 minutes. On his second sortie, he shot down another 2 Soviet aircraft in 2 minutes, making his score for the day 11.

...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

9 IL2s with a single load of ammo? WOW. If I get 100% hit accuracy in our game I can take down maybe four or five. It makes me question how realistic it is when I see a Sturmovik flying perfectly with 50% of it's surface area gone. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. Not to mention that he most likely did not used Mk108s. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

That is a real challenge to do even to experienced simmer in full real at first attempt.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hristo_
02-14-2005, 05:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackShrike:
he scored all 158 kills before eric hartmann got his first kill. ponder that for a second. now think if he wouldnt have had an engine malfunction where he bailed and had a chute malfunction and died.

he would have been at about 700 kills by wars end. double hartmann. with less sorties.

it was not meant to be. divine intervention yadd yadda call it what you will but the world did not want germany to win and the side of good got all the breaks. thats not all luck . unless your athiest <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like that bloody Apollo guiding the arrow at Achilles heel. Those gods should mind their own businesses instead http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tiger27
02-14-2005, 07:03 AM
Apparently early in his career it wasnt too safe flying wing for Marseille, I think it was mentioned in one of Steinhoffs books, all the same he must have been one hell of a shot, what a shame the way his life ended though.

Jasko76
02-14-2005, 08:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger27:
...what a shame the way his life ended though. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nonetheless, fortunately for many Allied airmen, it ended, and not a minute too soon!

Besides, I'd rather plummet to earth, unconciousness or not, than slowly burn to death! Now that would be my worst nightmare. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

LilHorse
02-14-2005, 08:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
Just remember people... more people die in this world of hunger and plagues per year than in whole AIR KILLS during whole WW2. But no one seems to be so angered about the richest countries that cause the poverty on some regions of this world.

So blame yourself next time you buy a new car when your old one is perfectly good for use... when you upgrade your computer... when you throw away food.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry to address this point in particular since it strays off the topic. But it's stuff like this simple minded drivel that perpetuates stereotypes of "evil capitalists" etc. This typical wealth-as-a-zero-sum idea of economics that is perpetuated by people who see themselves as the "enlightened" ones of the world is a childish over-simplification. Do you really think that because one country gains wealth it must mean that they are taking it away from another country? Ridiculous.

If you had told someone 30 years ago that a global industry valued at hundreds of billions of dollars would be created with little black pieces of glass and this etherial stuff called "software", they'd have though you were crazy. What wealth did that take away from someone?

Since the first oil contracts with the Saudis were inked in the 1930s, hundreds of billions of dollars flowed from the U.S. and the Western world into some of the most poverty stricken countries. Where did all of that money go? Gee, could it actually be that many of the problems experianced in these places are a result of their political and cultural making?

To be sure wealthy countries are not populated entirely by saints. We cause a fair amount of trouble in the world, no doubt. But we are not responsible for all of everybody's problems. And demonizing wealth doesn't solve anybody's problems. I'd say that wealthy countries by their very existence and persuits do more good in the world than would happen with somebodys brilliant Utopian scheme of redistributing wealth.

Rant over. My apologies for the tangent.

Hawgdog
02-14-2005, 09:31 AM
cool post, didnt know this stuff.
what a pilot

Orfson
02-14-2005, 09:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Do you really think that because one country gains wealth it _must_ mean that they are taking it away from another country? Ridiculous.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't agree on that - you can call me simple minded.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
To be sure wealthy countries are not populated entirely by saints. We cause a fair amount of trouble in the world, no doubt. But we are not responsible for all of everybody's problems.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I totally agree on this one.

slingsby
02-14-2005, 09:56 AM
On both sides pilots exagerated their claims so I'd take some of this with a pinch of salt.
Average of 15 rounds per 'kill' - you don't think his ground crew were trying to say something do you?
Using only machine guns?
That's just under 4 bullets per gun (and why would any 109 pilot give up his main advantage which was his central cannon?). Anyone know the fire rate of the machine guns? I'd guess that's well under a half second burst.
I don't buy it.
Neither did Johnny Johnson by the sound of it.
I'm sure he was an excellent ace and up there with the best but I doubt the number of his claims.
Based on pilot claims in the BoB, the RAF had downed about half the Luftwaffe and the Luftwaffe had almost destroyed the RAF.
Pilots saw things like coolant leaks and assumed the plane was going down.

LilHorse
02-14-2005, 10:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orfson:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Do you really think that because one country gains wealth it _must_ mean that they are taking it away from another country? Ridiculous.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't agree on that - you can call me simple minded.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I wouldn't call you simple minded. But perhaps not seeing the whole picture. Though it may certainly be the case that in some instances wealth aquired may mean wealth lost to someone else, wealth, as I stated before, is not a zero sum proposition. It isn't as if there is only a limited closed circuit amount of wealth in the world and that a gain here means a loss there. It just ain't so. My example of the computer industry is but one example and there are many others.

Who knows what will become the next wealth builder, or industry maker, or economy builder of the future? It could come out of something that is of little notice to anyone and wouldn't take away from anybody.

OldMan____
02-14-2005, 11:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orfson:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Do you really think that because one country gains wealth it _must_ mean that they are taking it away from another country? Ridiculous.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't agree on that - you can call me simple minded.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I wouldn't call you simple minded. But perhaps not seeing the whole picture. Though it may certainly be the case that in some instances wealth aquired may mean wealth lost to someone else, wealth, as I stated before, is not a zero sum proposition. It isn't as if there is only a limited closed circuit amount of wealth in the world and that a gain here means a loss there. It just ain't so. My example of the computer industry is but one example and there are many others.

Who knows what will become the next wealth builder, or industry maker, or economy builder of the future? It could come out of something that is of little notice to anyone and wouldn't take away from anybody. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I live in the country with the second WORST wealth distribution in world.. I see it every day. More frequently and in larger scale tha you will ever see in your entire life. Everytime I see someone getting richier.. I seee people getting poor beyond belief.

There is simple not enough resources in world for 6 billion people rich as europe or USA, so other people must get poor.. And they die for it. Not all their problems are because of rich world. Sure I agree on that. But a lot of problems are... Not all allied died because of LW pilots... but some had... because of that I made my premisse.

WereSnowleopard
02-14-2005, 12:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasko76:
Let's not confuse Marseilles with pilots like Günther Rall, Adolf Galland and Heinz Knoke - they may have flown for their country, people and squad mates, not giving a **** about nazi ideology. But Marseilles was like Nowotny, they embraced and supported nazi ideology wholehartedly, would have been great SS soldiers.

While I admire them as pilots, I think they were very bad HUMAN beings.

Who knows, had Marseilles lived longer he may have been able to realize errors of his leader, but as it were he died when Germany stood at the top of their power.

Would he have lived to score 700 kills? Quite unlikely. In the weeks before his death, Marseilles started showing signs of severe fatigue, he became burned out, started making errors. You do that in a war, you die. He was an exhibitionist, liked to show off, perform crazy maneuvers,unlike Hartmann who had a very cool approach and waited for that perfect moment to strike. Apparently a good approach to aerial combat.

As for von Richthofen being shot down by another aircraft, a Camel - not true. He was shot by an Aussie gunner, crash landed and died a few minutes later. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, as I remembered from read a book that he won't let crew come close to his plane as he sit in cockpit for a while after landing to calm his stress in after many missions.

Regards
Snowleopard

FluffyDucks
02-14-2005, 01:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slingsby:
On both sides pilots exagerated their claims so I'd take some of this with a pinch of salt.
Average of 15 rounds per 'kill' - you don't think his ground crew were trying to say something do you?
Using only machine guns?
That's just under 4 bullets per gun (and why would any 109 pilot give up his main advantage which was his central cannon?). Anyone know the fire rate of the machine guns? I'd guess that's well under a half second burst.
I don't buy it.
Neither did Johnny Johnson by the sound of it.
I'm sure he was an excellent ace and up there with the best but I doubt the number of his claims.
Based on pilot claims in the BoB, the RAF had downed about half the Luftwaffe and the Luftwaffe had almost destroyed the RAF.
Pilots saw things like coolant leaks and assumed the plane was going down. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Get your facts right.

1. ME109 had TWO nose mounted machine guns.

2. OKL had one of the strictest kill reporting bureaucracies of all. If there were no independant witnesses/crash site they wouldn't award the kill. (As a result of the BoB overclaims).

3. IRL two machineguns fired from close range(especially 13mm) and hitting engine/cockpit area was more than enough to bring down a fighter, especially the lighte built types like Spits/Hurris/P40. Don't forget the aim was to put your enemy out of the fight by mortally wounding the a/c, not necessarily total destruction there and then. I suspect once Marseille realised he had crippled an a/c and removed any threat from it, he turned his attention to the next threat.

Orfson
02-14-2005, 01:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:

No, I wouldn't call you simple minded. But perhaps not seeing the whole picture. Though it may certainly be the case that in some instances wealth aquired may mean wealth lost to someone else, wealth, as I stated before, is not a zero sum proposition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I understand your point, but I think thermodynamics takes its toll even when we are talking about politics and economy.
So, limited resources can be used wisely - feeding a large number of human beings - or unwisely.
Think at oil.

I understand what you mean when you talk about software. Software is like literature and art: something that goes beyond the material support. In this vision, I can say software is more related to "how" resources are used, it isn't a resource by himself.
Small opinion from a C++ developer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

slingsby
02-14-2005, 01:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FluffyDucks:

Get your facts right.

1. ME109 had TWO nose mounted machine guns.

2. OKL had one of the strictest kill reporting bureaucracies of all. If there were no independant witnesses/crash site they wouldn't award the kill. (As a result of the BoB overclaims).

3. IRL two machineguns fired from close range(especially 13mm) and hitting engine/cockpit area was more than enough to bring down a fighter, especially the lighte built types like Spits/Hurris/P40. Don't forget the aim was to put your enemy out of the fight by mortally wounding the a/c, not necessarily total destruction there and then. I suspect once Marseille realised he had crippled an a/c and removed any threat from it, he turned his attention to the next threat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, you're right; the bf 109f did away with the 2 wing mounted m/g's and just had 2 cowling mounted MG17s (7.92mm - not 13mm) and the central mounted cannon firing thru' the prop shaft.
The MG 17s fired at 1000 rpm.
That's over 16 rounds per second.
For 2 guns (if he didn't use his main weapon, the centrally mounted cannon) that's 32 rounds per second.
So 15 rounds = just under a half second burst (like I guessed)

Repeated 'kills' with under half second bursts?
Again and again, he could average that?
I'm sorry but i still don't buy it.
I don't care how good he was, I can't see anyone doing that.

Anyway, a half second burst is hardly walking your bullets up the fuselage. More of a quick sprint really.

stathem
02-14-2005, 02:14 PM
Remember, RL pilots would have been a lot more ready to jump out of damaged planes than we are to hit ctrl E; especially with some hotshot Bf pilot beaming you.

LilHorse
02-14-2005, 03:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
I live in the country with the second WORST wealth distribution in world.. I see it every day. More frequently and in larger scale tha you will ever see in your entire life. Everytime I see someone getting richier.. I seee people getting poor beyond belief. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you know what I've experianced in my life?
Just because this is your experiance and you seem to see a de-facto relationship between someone getting richer causing someone else getting poorer doesn't mean it is so. Like I said, wealth is not a zero sum proposition. If you've seen an obvious stealing from some to make others rich consistantly in your country then I submit that there is something wrong with the economics of your country.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by OldMan____:
There is simple not enough resources in world for 6 billion people rich as europe or USA, so other people must get poor.. And they die for it. Not all their problems are because of rich world. Sure I agree on that. But a lot of problems are... [QUOTE]

The value and availability of resourses change throughout time. Does everybody have to be as rich as the U.S. or Europe to have a decent quality of life? Do you think somehow everybody should be provided with an equal share of everything? Who decides on such matters? Such schemes have been tried in certain countries and have not exactly been proven to be beyond corruption. Certainly no less than anything capitalism has done.

And I would say it is still overstepping to say a "lot" of their problems are caused by the "rich" world. Maybe some are. Maybe many aren't. It is often the case that many places that are badly off were that way for hundreds of years before any contact with "rich" countries. Therefore the problems lie somewhere other than their relationships with other countries.

jung0l
02-14-2005, 03:40 PM
I think that a lot of people have missed the fact that Marseilles was famed for aiming at the cockpit/pilot....so how many 7.62mm round do u need to "damage" that? And Weresnowleopard...I was under the impression that he was indifferent to Nazi ideals and was fond of Jazz....?

Interesting read....but I wish you guys would lay off them politics man....most come here to ESCAPE the BS of the world......

JG7_Rall
02-14-2005, 03:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jung0l:
I think that a lot of people have missed the fact that Marseilles was famed for aiming at the cockpit/pilot....so how many 7.62mm round do u need to "damage" that? And Weresnowleopard...I was under the impression that he was indifferent to Nazi ideals and was fond of Jazz....?

Interesting read....but I wish you guys would lay off them politics man....most come here to ESCAPE the BS of the world...... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for saying that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

FluffyDucks
02-14-2005, 03:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jung0l:
I think that a lot of people have missed the fact that Marseilles was famed for aiming at the cockpit/pilot....so how many 7.62mm round do u need to "damage" that? And Weresnowleopard...I was under the impression that he was indifferent to Nazi ideals and was fond of Jazz....?

Interesting read....but I wish you guys would lay off them politics man....most come here to ESCAPE the BS of the world...... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for saying that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes lay off the political BS please, the sign of maturity is being able to discuss this man's exploits in a neutral,civilised,factual way, without letting personal bias/ignorance get in the way. Hate him, or admire him, it doesn't change the fact that he was an EXCEPTIONAL pilot.
I have to say,in rl, if I had a burst of mg fire into MY cockpit, I would be hitting the CTRL E button pretty **** quick! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

PBNA-Boosher
02-14-2005, 04:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasko76:
Nonetheless, fortunately for many Allied airmen, it ended, and not a minute too soon!

Besides, I'd rather plummet to earth, unconciousness or not, than slowly burn to death! Now that would be my worst nightmare. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not kidding. And I know what it's like. You can smell the smoke, and you don't know where it's coming from.. you whirl around and there it is, a black gas cloud, choking you, swirling around you... You're so dehydrated, not enough air, not enough water in you to sweat.... And then you smell it, charring, blackening flesh. The smell of burning meat and the pain of fire licking your back. It smells as disgusting as sounds. Like eating a chicken infested with thousands of maggots and half rotten. The smell of the putrid flesh... Oh God. It never leaves you, never.

It's the worst smell in the world, the burning of your own flesh.

Jasko76
02-14-2005, 04:27 PM
First hand experience or vivid imagination? Man, I think it's the worst way to die! Are you familiar with a girl in USA that was trapped for 45 seconds in her burning car. She survived but looks very bad, something like Freddie Krueger. She is a very brave and strong person, trying to live a normal life in spite of it all.

WereSnowleopard
02-14-2005, 05:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jung0l:
I think that a lot of people have missed the fact that Marseilles was famed for aiming at the cockpit/pilot....so how many 7.62mm round do u need to "damage" that? And Weresnowleopard...I was under the impression that he was indifferent to Nazi ideals and was fond of Jazz....?

Interesting read....but I wish you guys would lay off them politics man....most come here to ESCAPE the BS of the world...... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jung01, I think you miss read two articles stuff from of website I copyed and pasted...First one: "he never used his gun sight and instead fired a very short burst at the passing target in the split second when its leading edge, its propeller, disappeared from his eyes behind his aircraft's nose. He calculated that when firing a short burst at this position, his gun rounds will hit the target's engine and cockpit". (It is standard for military/police to aim is center of body not just arm or leg and He don't hold and aim for 15 second but SNAP-SHOT like Clint Eastwood in Spaghetti old west movie shootout as must do quick kill to aviod get killed. Second one is use engine search with "Hans Joachim Marseille+jazz" to visit several websites that tell what his favorvite music "He also loved american jazz music, which was very politically incorrect in the nazi military." http://www.2worldwar2.com/marseille.htm " Then there are their attitudes - especially to authority. Marseille had little regard for authority - he often wore his hair long (for the time) and listened to jazz music, officially banned by the Nazis. Major Robert Tate of the USAF reports that "..upon his arrival in North Africa, his commanders were in possession of a thick file containing his breeches of military discipline and unorthodox behaviour". http://www.geocities.com/vienna/5373/esoteric/jeremy-irons-theory.htm Also buy a book story about him also my book don't mentioned anything how much he love his nazism view as book do tell that Rudel love his view on Nazism. ( I feel awful to type that word!)

Regards
Snowleopard

WereSnowleopard
02-14-2005, 05:23 PM
STAR OF AFRIKA

Smoke in the cockpit

Have to get out.

Make the quick call:

I can't mess about.



Canopy jettisoned

Dive over the side.

SMASH in the ribs

With the tail collide.



Pain in my body

Falling through space

A terrible end

For the world's greatest ace.



It was always so good:

I'm known far and wide.

I'm young and I'm handsome

And awesome besides.



How could this happen

Especially to me?

My God, I'm too good

On that all agree.



Farewell my 3rd Staffel

and JG-27.

Farewell my dear comradres

As I plummet through heaven.



No Tommy cold beat me

In the skies over sand.

The best of the best

Eyes, head, heart, and hands.



No Hurri or Kittyhawk

Put a round thru my skin.

It took Yellow Fourteen

To do poor Jochen in!




SCHRAGE MUSIK

By Barrett Tillman



Do not ask me €œWho started it?€

This war is long past the point of argument.

You say that we sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.

Warsaw, Amsterdam, and Coventry burned beneath black-crossed wings.

I do not care. Those were other cities, other nations, other people.

Now the burning cities are Berlin, Cologne, and Dresden.

This abomination, tonight, is happening to Us.

My wife and child sleep in concrete bunkers, faintly remembering feather beds.



Please do not speak to me of Reich and Fuhrer.

I have heard that drumbeat since the age of twelve.

And I bought into it: whole-heartedly, completely. Fervently.

Then I grew up.

Some never do, you know. But I grew to maturity with a '110 beneath me

And I know something of what I speak.

Dare I speak what I feel? Certainly not.

I am a flier, not a fool.



I am twenty-four years old and I have lost my youth.

Long ago, as a boy, my flying was limited to weekends.

Now I fly only at night. Almost every night.

I have spent the last three years hacking down Terrorflieger from flak-pocked skies.

I hunt them and know them by their spoor: cockaded wings, heavily laden Viermots each with five to seven terrorists.

I would bomb their cities as easily as they bomb mine.

The only difference between them and me is the paint on our airplanes.



What a weapon I hold in my hands!

An engineering marvel from Professor Messerschmitt:

Two powerful engines, a scientific wonder with forked antlers and six cannon.

With my radar operator behind me, I swim upward into the moonlit darkness,

Twenty and thirty millimeter vengeance beneath my thumb.

Linked by radio to argus-eyed sentries, I worship the modern gods:

Wurzburg, Freya, and Lichtenstein. Their electronic eyes pierce the night.

But in the last 300 meters, human vision is what matters.



There he is.

Lancaster? Sterling? Halifax? Das macht nicht. All are fair game.

Aha! He is alert. He goes into his choreographed routine: the famous €œcorkscrew.€

It€s a game I have played many times before. Dive, climb, roll, reverse; repeat.

He is good, this Tommi. He knows his business.

But I am better.

Alternately, gravity pushes me into my seat, then lifts me from it.

The tail gunner fires but he cannot draw a bead on me.



Almost flying formation, I match him move for move.

His belly is framed in the orange glow of my €œroof mounted€ Revi.

Why do the English not put ventral turrets in their bombers?

Steady€¦steady€¦tracking€¦THERE.

Behind me the €œjazz music€ beats a 20mm cacophony.

Two MG-151s, scientifically angled at 65 degrees: tracers converge overhead.

Fire again. Bright motes of API snap and sparkle across his airframe.

Time to get out from under.



I roll right, watching the result of my skill.

€œA flamer!€ cries Bodo behind his scope.

I make the call: Pauke! Pauke!

It€s a call I have made dozens of times.

The novelty has long since abated, but the tingle remains.

My Schrage Musik is empty, but no matter.

What does matter, you ask?

Very well, I shall tell you:



My controller tells me of another €œcustomer€ nearby. That matters.

I turn to the heading and Bodo begins his scan. That matters.

I have ample fuel in my tanks. That matters a lot.

I still have ammunition in my four nose guns. That matters a great deal.

Eight thousand meters beneath me, my country burns.

And that matters most of all.

Original Poetry by Barrett Tillman

Petey78
02-14-2005, 05:40 PM
Forgive me if I'm repeating somebody here but it's late and I haven't got the time to read the entire thread. Earlier in the thread, people mention that they would vehemently hate their opposite number if 'they had seen their buddies get killed by them'. I can't speak for everybody who fights and has fought in the front line be that on land, sea or in the air but I know that my late Grandfather, a front line tank soldier with the 5th Royal Tank Regiment, 7th Armoured Division, (Desert Rats) who fought almost continuously for five years in North Africa, Italy and throughout the invasion of mainland Europe, had complete respect for his German counterparts. He viewed them as young men, like himself, who were fighting because they had to and because they believed in what they were doing (even if their beliefs were misplaced). He admired their bravery and their professionalism (and the music they played on their forces radio, he wasn't much of a fan of Dame Vera Lynn). However, he didn't extend the same respect to the Italians he faced in NA and it was nothing to do with them killing lots of his buddies). In fact, from most accounts that I've heard and read, pretty quickly in combat, (if you survive), you don't make too many friends, that way you don't lose them. My Grandfather was also one of the first tank soldiers into Belsen and saw the true horrors of the Nazi regime first hand but was still able to differentiate between the SS/Nazis and the majority of rank and file German soldiers he faced in combat, despite seeing many of his comrades killed in action (he was the sole survivor of two direct hits). Let us also consider that tank warfare is a hell of a lot more bloody and unremitting than the majority of air to air fighter combat. War is hell for all sane combatants and mutual sympathy is not uncommon. Anyway, just my tuppence worth.... Thanks if you've read this far...

JG7_Rall
02-14-2005, 06:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Petey78:
Forgive me if I'm repeating somebody here but it's late and I haven't got the time to read the entire thread. Earlier in the thread, people mention that they would vehemently hate their opposite number if 'they had seen their buddies get killed by them'. I can't speak for everybody who fights and has fought in the front line be that on land, sea or in the air but I know that my late Grandfather, a front line tank soldier with the 5th Royal Tank Regiment, 7th Armoured Division, (Desert Rats) who fought almost continuously for five years in North Africa, Italy and throughout the invasion of mainland Europe, had complete respect for his German counterparts. He viewed them as young men, like himself, who were fighting because they had to and because they believed in what they were doing (even if their beliefs were misplaced). He admired their bravery and their professionalism (and the music they played on their forces radio, he wasn't much of a fan of Dame Vera Lynn). However, he didn't extend the same respect to the Italians he faced in NA and it was nothing to do with them killing lots of his buddies). In fact, from most accounts that I've heard and read, pretty quickly in combat, (if you survive), you don't make too many friends, that way you don't lose them. My Grandfather was also one of the first tank soldiers into Belsen and saw the true horrors of the Nazi regime first hand but was still able to differentiate between the SS/Nazis and the majority of rank and file German soldiers he faced in combat, despite seeing many of his comrades killed in action (he was the sole survivor of two direct hits). Let us also consider that tank warfare is a hell of a lot more bloody and unremitting than the majority of air to air fighter combat. War is hell for all sane combatants and mutual sympathy is not uncommon. Anyway, just my tuppence worth.... Thanks if you've read this far... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A big S! to your grandfather and all the men and women who fought on all sides of the war. It'd great to hear that he survived despite the odds, and also that he kept and open mind about the Germans throughout the war.

PBNA-Boosher
02-14-2005, 07:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasko76:
First hand experience or vivid imagination? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Much too vivid an imagination and mind, I must say. It isn't fun either. When you start seeing everyone you love burn alive in your dreams, without any possibility of saving them, come see me, you'll know how helpless you feel.

WereSnowleopard
02-14-2005, 08:46 PM
Lot of veterans in 60's don't want talk about it.

TheGozr
02-14-2005, 09:37 PM
i read this.

In all the sorties he had flown over North Africa, except for the instance in which he was shot down by the Hurricane, his plane had not been hit by a single bullet.

The Hurricane was:
After a rough start in which he was shot down by a Free French pilot flying a Hurricane, he soon became the scourge of the RAF in North Africa.

Both French .

wayno7777
02-14-2005, 11:03 PM
According to most accounts an amazing talent. Even his mates wouldn't have believed it if they hadn't witnessed him in action. His story is worth delving into.

victor51
02-15-2005, 03:39 PM
Wow! did this thread get de-railed.


No question that Marsaille was a talented fighter pilot, but like was mentioned the Me-109F-4 was so much more superior than the P-40's and Hurri's that the claims are a little too flattering. Skill for skill I would put my boy "RCAF- F/Sgt James 'Eddie' Edwards" up against him in a/c of equal caliber, Eddie might of got a taste of his tail feathers anyway:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>: 'Kittyhawks over the Sand p.83'


"At one moment during tha chaos, a 109 - quite possibly flown by Marseille or Stahlschmidt- came down within range of Eddies' guns. As the 109 pulled up, Eddie turned after him and fired a burst with his aircraft in a steep climb. As he levelled out and put his nose down to prevent stalling, he could only witness hits on the wing and fuselage of the 109. His action had been taken without warning to the others, but before long, Eddie's four reformed and continued their escort.

"At the end of the combat", leutnant Stahlschmidt later recalled, "only Marselle and I were left in the dogfight. Each of us had three victories. At home we climbed out of our planes and were thoroughly exhausted. Marseille had bullet holes in his 109 and I had eleven hits in mine. We embraced each other, but were unable to speak. It was an unforgettable event."

It goes on to say " The combat decipherment would prove that the two Luftwaffe stars understandingly overclaimed during that hectic combat but actually shot down at least three aircraft ". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These guys got off luckier than 'Oberleutnant-Otto Schulz' did from in front of Eddies guns. Eddies' numbers aren't anywhere near the German aces' but he didn't have the a/c or combat experience. And yet in my mind he matched up pretty good, and was as good a pilot and deflection shooter as anyone in that theatre.