PDA

View Full Version : What is more manuverable ... ?



Spartan_GR
07-04-2005, 05:16 AM
... A modern Jet ( like a F-16 ) or a Spitfire ( or any other WW2 fighter ) ? :-) Yes i know that my question might seem silly, but i am just curious http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If for instance both airplanes fly at 300km/h, and in the same altitude, what plane would be more manuverable ?

han freak solo
07-04-2005, 07:51 AM
Until someone comes forth with a real answer.

A butterfly is very manuverable. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

mynameisroland
07-04-2005, 08:49 AM
In the vertical the Typhoon is capable of manuvers that the spit can only dream of. At low speed horitontal turns I think the Spit may just hold the edge but not by a large margin. The Typhoon is physically not much larger had has a phenomenal thrust to weight ratio and fly by wire systems to enable it to fly on the edge

Jaws2002
07-04-2005, 10:00 AM
This thing Owns the Spiffy in a stall fight:
Patric's Aviation video (http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos.php?action=view&id=204) (Su-30MK demo,27megs)

FritzGryphon
07-04-2005, 10:24 AM
An F-16 would be struggling to fly at 300km/h. A Spit would fly barrel rolls around it in a level turn.

But one of the new high T/W thrust vectoring planes might be good.

FI-Aflak
07-04-2005, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
An F-16 would be struggling to fly at 300km/h. A Spit would fly barrel rolls around it in a level turn.

But one of the new high T/W thrust vectoring planes might be good.

True this, but manueverability isn't all that - the spitfire wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell in a real right, even if you didn't let the modern pilot fire any missiles . . .

perhaps there are some modern planes capable of slow-speed turnfighting, but it would be kind of pointless . . . fighters still knifefight but they sure as hell don't do it at slow speeds.

LStarosta
07-04-2005, 11:29 AM
http://7art-screensavers.com/screenshots/fruits/red-green-apples.jpg
http://primates.ximian.com/~federico/news-photos/20020212-oranges.jpg

alert_1
07-04-2005, 12:48 PM
Ever seen movie Final Countdown? F14 Tomcat against Zeke? (if not I have a spoiler for you: Tomcat won)

AerialTarget
07-04-2005, 02:12 PM
Yes, and in the movie Behind Enemy Lines, a surface to air missile made three or four three hundred and sixty degree turns in less than half a mile. What is your point, other than movies are usually full of tripe?

kameron1974
07-04-2005, 02:45 PM
I've seen an F-18 fly pretty darn slow. 180kmph I think it was at the Toronto airshow.
The pilot was demonstrating how slow it could go(why)
Then it got bounced out of nowhere by some Spitfire.
I'm surprised noone heard about this.
It was in the papers for weeks.

JG7_Rall
07-04-2005, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
http://7art-screensavers.com/screenshots/fruits/red-green-apples.jpg
http://primates.ximian.com/~federico/news-photos/20020212-oranges.jpg


Hint: Apples and Oranges.

Commence laughing

LStarosta
07-04-2005, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
http://7art-screensavers.com/screenshots/fruits/red-green-apples.jpg
http://primates.ximian.com/~federico/news-photos/20020212-oranges.jpg


Hint: Apples and Oranges.

Commence laughing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TY. I heart you.

JG7_Rall
07-04-2005, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
http://7art-screensavers.com/screenshots/fruits/red-green-apples.jpg
http://primates.ximian.com/~federico/news-photos/20020212-oranges.jpg


Hint: Apples and Oranges.

Commence laughing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TY. I heart you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Likewise!

VW-IceFire
07-04-2005, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Spartan_GR:
... A modern Jet ( like a F-16 ) or a Spitfire ( or any other WW2 fighter ) ? :-) Yes i know that my question might seem silly, but i am just curious http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If for instance both airplanes fly at 300km/h, and in the same altitude, what plane would be more manuverable ?
This is a very difficult question. There is no straight answer. The F-16 is at the edge of its stall while the Spitfire is operating at a nominal combat speed. The F-16 has massive thrust to weight ratio advantage, computer controled avoinics, and the like.

Badsight.
07-04-2005, 10:56 PM
i remember being told of how 2 F16s in Sth America used up all their ammo trying to gun down a Cessna plane that wouldnt respond to warnings over the radio

the guy using the cessna evaded all their attacks & got away

Tailgator
07-04-2005, 11:07 PM
A-10

wayno7777
07-05-2005, 12:17 AM
A-4

WTE_Dukayn
07-05-2005, 12:23 AM
HIT! Darn, you sunk my battleship

Friendly_flyer
07-05-2005, 02:02 AM
Despite LStarostras very well made point, there exists an incident that at least gives an idea of the problem:

In the Korean war, an U2VS (yup, the slow double decker we have in the game) was harassing an allied airfield. Attempts at shooting it down repeatedly failed, the small bomber simply jumped out of the way every time a fighter got it in its sights. In the end, a fighter pilot managed to shoot it down, but only after applying full flaps and lowering the landing gear to slow speed. The low speed caused him to crash his craft right after shooting the U2 down, so as dogfights goes, I think it would be fair to call it a draw. The allied fighter was, if memory serves me right, a Shooting Star (operational version of the YP-80).

Sometimes very old and outdated equipment may give sterling service against enemies using the latest in modern weaponry simply by operating outside the modern equipments operational envelope. There are numerous examples of this. In Mogadishu, the €œtribal€ fighter had an absolutely secure communication in the form of tribal drumming. The hyper-modern American UN-force had no way of either tapping into it or jamming it. In the Great War, trench raiders usually used knifes and clubs that for all practical purpose could have been made thousands of years ago, against modern (though unwieldy) bolt action rifles, pistols and machine guns.

Unless it got it€s missiles to bear, I would think an F-16 would be hard pressed to stop a Spitfire harassing ground troops. But the spitfire would be even harder pressed to something a bout the F-16!

Von_Rat
07-05-2005, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
http://7art-screensavers.com/screenshots/fruits/red-green-apples.jpg
http://primates.ximian.com/~federico/news-photos/20020212-oranges.jpg


Hint: Apples and Oranges.

Commence laughing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TY. I heart you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Likewise! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
------------------------------------------------

all i see here are a bunch of fruits

Jagdgeschwader2
07-05-2005, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
This thing Owns the Spiffy in a stall fight:
Patric's Aviation video (http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos.php?action=view&id=204) (Su-30MK demo,27megs)

Whoa thats a good web page! There is a video on page five that has got to be seen! It's entitled A long video of some WWII footage. At first I thought it would be some rehashed scenes but I was wrong! It was awesome and the music was too. Not to be missed.

http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jagdgeschwader2s.jpg

JamesBlonde888
07-05-2005, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by alert_1:
Ever seen movie Final Countdown? F14 Tomcat against Zeke? (if not I have a spoiler for you: Tomcat won)

Ha! The jetwash of the Tomcat would have knocked the Zeke to bits. I hear they were held together with hairpins.

PikeBishop
07-05-2005, 04:28 AM
Dear all,
The idea that a modern day jet is "better" than those that have gone before is very tempting. But the truth is that if one considers the flight envelope (min and max speed, max climb acceleration, max 'g') of these two aircraft one is almost at the point of "never the twain shall meet". It is always considered that if a flght envelope completely encloses the flight envelope of another, then it will outclass it in all areas. Except that in this case the Spitfire has a lower stall speed (reflected by lower wing loading).This means that for any given speed it can pull more 'g' which means it has a tighter turn at that speed. This is OK for the Spitfire until a point is reached at around max speed went the theoretical 'g' results in too much load on the pilot. If one considers rate of roll at around the stall speed of the F16 ? about 150mph, as soon as the F16 tried a turn beyond say 1.1'g' it would begin to stall, whilst the Spitfire could pull at least 2'g' at this speed. The F16 could probably roll much faster than the spitfire at speeds of 200mph + but it's turn would be so shallow it probably could not get out of the deflection arc of the Spit even though it could accelerate out of range at any speed within or close to the Spitfires flight envelope. But as soon as the F16 tried to attack the Spit, provided the Spit pilot kept the speed down to around 50mph above his stall speed he could easily out-turn the F16. If the F16 pilot tried a faster approach to avoid stalling, the combination of speed and rate of turn would make the relative speed of deflection pretty impossible for the F16 pilot. The best way to look at it is that in WWII the Zero could always out-turn any US type it encountered because they had a lighter wing loading and a higher power loading, but there max speed was always on the low side so were not quite able to totaly outclass their opponents. Had they had maximum speed greater than their opponents that would mean that their flight envelope completely enclosed the US aircraft.
Best regards
SLP

AH_Gonzo
07-05-2005, 06:45 AM
Hint: Apples and Oranges


LMAO. Now that's what I call an analogy!

Slickun
07-05-2005, 07:21 AM
The Spitfire would be totally defensive.

The F-16 could boom and zoom it all day, using vertical maneuvers the Spit, and any other WW2 plane, could only imagine.

Whether the Spit could evade every attack is problematic. I know this, a split second in the sights and the Vulcan splinters it.

With leading edge slats the low speeds of modern jets is not as bad as some here may think.

PikeBishop
07-05-2005, 09:06 AM
The question was which one was the more manoeverable. No doubt the F16 could do as you say but at any given speed the Spitfire would be the more manoeuverable if we are speaking of turns only because, as far as I know the F16's stall speed is higher. If you are talking about rate of roll, again it depends on the speed. If you are talking about acceleration and zoom-climb and ceiling then the F16 has no problems. Except that the Spit would be airborne and manoeuvering at less than the speed the F16 needs to become airborn in the first place!
So what are we actually talking about.......it no doubt is a problem!!
regards
SLP

VW-IceFire
07-05-2005, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
In the Korean war, an U2VS (yup, the slow double decker we have in the game) was harassing an allied airfield. Attempts at shooting it down repeatedly failed, the small bomber simply jumped out of the way every time a fighter got it in its sights. In the end, a fighter pilot managed to shoot it down, but only after applying full flaps and lowering the landing gear to slow speed. The low speed caused him to crash his craft right after shooting the U2 down, so as dogfights goes, I think it would be fair to call it a draw. The allied fighter was, if memory serves me right, a Shooting Star (operational version of the YP-80).
I think that was a F7F Tigercat. I didn't know that he crashed...I thought he almost crashed.

Nonetheless, the analogy is correct. The Tigercat was a rediculously fast propeller aircraft vs a very slow biplane.

He had alot of trouble trying to bring his 20mm and .50cal guns to bear.

Slickun
07-05-2005, 09:49 AM
I guess we're also talking about what the term "maneuverability" means.

To my Dad, a 30 year fighter pilot, it was a sum of things, roll rate probably the biggest part. Turning, sure, but not just a low speeds....ALL speeds in the envelope. As well as how quick the plane got INTO the turn. As well as dive acceleration, zoom ability, level acceleration, "all of it, Boah." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Roll rates of modern jet aircraft are very, very good, for the most part. Powered ailerons and all.

But the point is well taken on slow speed. If one checks out Spick's "The Ace Factor", a few charts he has on the radii of a 3 G turn at different speeds, it's startling how far apart "dogfights" have gotten from the Camel vs DR1 days.

Friendly_flyer
07-05-2005, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I think that was a F7F Tigercat. I didn't know that he crashed...I thought he almost crashed.

Ah, a Tigercat, that figures. I may be wrong on the crashing part. I read it on these forums some time back. If it is so, a draw between an U2 and a Tigercat is still very good performance from the U2...

Shakthamac
07-05-2005, 09:02 PM
Now the real question is...


Who wins between Airwolf and a Spitfire?


ORRRRR


Blue Thunder and an A10

And dont tell me those were just movie choppers I saw em in real life be sure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

LStarosta
07-05-2005, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Shakthamac:
Now the real question is...


Who wins between Airwolf and a Spitfire?


ORRRRR


Blue Thunder and an A10

And dont tell me those were just movie choppers I saw em in real life be sure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

I got my money on KITT.

http://www.talkingelectronics.com/Projects/KittScanner/images/kitt.gif

wayno7777
07-05-2005, 10:42 PM
Ahhh, but can KITT go round and round with Elinore? Better still, the Mach 5??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif