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cvonseggern
11-04-2004, 07:20 PM
I have a friend who is harping that he shouldn't be able to down Zeroes at 800 yards with a lucky shot...he believes a .50 round should just bounce off the aircraft's skin at that range.

I'm not sure I agree. Yes, it's a long way downrange, but that .50-cal bullet carries a lot of mass. In fact, IIRC Gunny Carlos Hathcock is believed to have killed an NVA soldier with a single .50 round at 2,500 yards. An airplane's skin isn't the same as a human head, but I'd have to believe that at 800 yards you could still penetrate aircraft-grade aluminum. What do you all think?

bird_brain
11-04-2004, 07:34 PM
I have read many a tale of allied fighters opening up with .50 cal @ 800+ yds and scoring the odd kill. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
Bong and Schilling were the 2 that stand out as long range shots if you need specifics. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
I think now that Gibbage raised enough heII to get the dispersion issue addressed, it is possible but not easy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Athosd
11-04-2004, 07:41 PM
The trick to killing at man that range with the .50cal is hitting him - the round will quite handily fillet a human being at 3000m.

Against material targets the .50 is still quite effective out to around 1500m - of course it depends what you are trying to destroy.

In a pursuit situation with one aircraft 800m behind the other the round will actually travel a lot further than 800m from its launch point to reach the target. There a lot of factors that effect the projectiles energy in this situation - however even if it travelled the equivalent of 2000m it would still have enough energy to rip through an aluminium aircraft skin.
In summary - I don't doubt the .50 could still do significant damage to a lightly built aircraft at that range, I do doubt that it would be as easy to get hits as it is in the game.

Cheers

Athos

Obi_Kwiet
11-04-2004, 07:42 PM
Zeros weren’t armored. I think you could probably punch through that stuff with your hand.

berg417448
11-04-2004, 07:42 PM
I found this ...if it helps:

"Major John L. Plaster in his book "The Ultimate Sniper,chapter 9, p215" states: that a 750 grain 50 BMG projectile will deliver more energy than a .44 Magnum at 1.5 miles.

We can use this data to estimate the impact velocity of a 1.5 mile hit with a 750 grain Amax; or at least get a ballpark idea. By using data from Remington's website: a typical 240 grain 44 mag projectile has a muzzle energy of 741 ft-lbs. Next we set this as the bottom energy value for the 750 grain projectile at 1.5 miles. Lets calculate for impact velocity by doing some algebra:

(Mass X Velocity squared)/450,400= KE
Mass= 750 grains
Velocity=?
Constant= 450,400
KE=741

750 x V squared÷450,400 = 741
750 x V squared = 333,746,400
V squared = 444,995.2
square root of V = Square root of 444,995.2
V=667.07

Therefore a 750 grain, 50 BMG projectile would be impacting with a velocity of at least 667 feet per second at 1.5 miles! By using an online metric to english conversion calculator
1.5 miles = 2414 meters.

2310 meters(canadian sniper shot)= 1.435 miles or 2526 yards!"

Gibbage1
11-04-2004, 07:54 PM
Yes. M2 Browning still retains lethal velicity at 2500-3000 meters. The problem is hitting.

Also note. M2 .50 cal rounds (along with all other HMG rounds) IN IL2 disappear at about 900-1000M. Canon shells go on a lot further.

In the P-38, horizontal convergance is not an issue like the P-51 and P-47. If you read a few P-38 pilots wartime stories, they claim hits at 1000M+.

Also, this "long range kill" ability is NOT exclusive to the M2 .50 cal in IL2. You can do the same with the UBS on the Yak and Mig series of aircraft, and even the MG13 or other HMG's. But since the UBS is only using 1-2 guns and the P-38 has 4, you have a lot better chance at hitting and scoring something vital in the P-38 just do to the number of bulletes, not because the gun is any better.

Jason Bourne
11-04-2004, 09:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by berg417448:
I found this ...if it helps:

"Major John L. Plaster in his book "The Ultimate Sniper,chapter 9, p215" states: that a 750 grain 50 BMG projectile will deliver more energy than a .44 Magnum at 1.5 miles.

We can use this data to estimate the impact velocity of a 1.5 mile hit with a 750 grain Amax; or at least get a ballpark idea. By using data from Remington's website: a typical 240 grain 44 mag projectile has a muzzle energy of 741 ft-lbs. Next we set this as the bottom energy value for the 750 grain projectile at 1.5 miles. Lets calculate for impact velocity by doing some algebra:

(Mass X Velocity squared)/450,400= KE
Mass= 750 grains
Velocity=?
Constant= 450,400
KE=741

750 x V squared÷450,400 = 741
750 x V squared = 333,746,400
V squared = 444,995.2
square root of V = Square root of 444,995.2
V=667.07

Therefore a 750 grain, 50 BMG projectile would be impacting with a velocity of at least 667 feet per second at 1.5 miles! By using an online metric to english conversion calculator
1.5 miles = 2414 meters.

2310 meters(canadian sniper shot)= 1.435 miles or 2526 yards!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

your math looks good, but basically flawed:

Kinetic Energy (KE) = (1/2)M^2*V
Mass MUST be in KG
Velocity MUST be in Meters/Sec, or else you start getting wierd answers. so redo the math, and please dont use ballpark figures either, because air resistance will als oplay a major factor, the .44 Mag round is blunt, the .50 Cal round is a rifle round, thus, it cuts through the air much better. In fact, it is so aero dynamic that they based the first supersonic plane on the same shape

Fritzofn
11-04-2004, 11:15 PM
think it's also stated in the manual for SWOTL that B-17 gunners scored kills of upto 1000 meters.
th M2 is a heavy duty MG, and it's STIL in service, if it hadent been for the ammo developed for it at Kongsberg VÃÂ¥pen fabrik (Kongsberg group arms factory) with the newer AP round's and APi, it would have been taken out of service some 5 years ago

gbollin
11-05-2004, 06:20 AM
Max range for M2-Hb is 6,830m.
Max effective range ground mounted 1,825m.
Max effective range air to air 1050m.

berg417448
11-05-2004, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jason Bourne:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by berg417448:
I found this ...if it helps:

"Major John L. Plaster in his book "The Ultimate Sniper,chapter 9, p215" states: that a 750 grain 50 BMG projectile will deliver more energy than a .44 Magnum at 1.5 miles.

We can use this data to estimate the impact velocity of a 1.5 mile hit with a 750 grain Amax; or at least get a ballpark idea. By using data from Remington's website: a typical 240 grain 44 mag projectile has a muzzle energy of 741 ft-lbs. Next we set this as the bottom energy value for the 750 grain projectile at 1.5 miles. Lets calculate for impact velocity by doing some algebra:

(Mass X Velocity squared)/450,400= KE
Mass= 750 grains
Velocity=?
Constant= 450,400
KE=741

750 x V squared÷450,400 = 741
750 x V squared = 333,746,400
V squared = 444,995.2
square root of V = Square root of 444,995.2
V=667.07

Therefore a 750 grain, 50 BMG projectile would be impacting with a velocity of at least 667 feet per second at 1.5 miles! By using an online metric to english conversion calculator
1.5 miles = 2414 meters.

2310 meters(canadian sniper shot)= 1.435 miles or 2526 yards!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

your math looks good, but basically flawed:

Kinetic Energy (KE) = (1/2)M^2*V
Mass MUST be in KG
Velocity MUST be in Meters/Sec, or else you start getting wierd answers. so redo the math, and please dont use ballpark figures either, because air resistance will als oplay a major factor, the .44 Mag round is blunt, the .50 Cal round is a rifle round, thus, it cuts through the air much better. In fact, it is so aero dynamic that they based the first supersonic plane on the same shape <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Since I noted that I found that at another source ( note quotation marks)please feel free to notify Major Plaster of his error. And the shape of the bullet is not relevant to his proposal. He is simply using the muzzle energy level of a 44 magnum as his "bottom enery value".

IIIJG11_Dingus
11-05-2004, 08:22 AM
What more .50 Cal threads! Please make the bad man stop!

http://users.on.net/~dingus/DSCN0195.jpg