PDA

View Full Version : Convergence query



vitreous
01-23-2005, 05:38 AM
Hi there, i've been playing il2 for a while now, but i've always wondered about gun convergence and how it matches to the numbers on your hud. For example, i've currently got most of my guns set to 250 metres, does this mean that (when lables are on) that '25' is equal to 250 metres?
Also, what do people tend to find are good distances to set for maximum efficiency in shooting down planes. i also wondered whether it was a good idea to set your cannons and machine guns at slightly different convergences was a good tactic, i have tried putting guns at 250 and cannons at 200 before due to only wanting to use my big guns wehen im right up a planes ****!

Sturm_Williger
01-23-2005, 06:53 AM
Personally, I've always assumed that the icon distance given is in metres, so that 1.25 is 1250m and 0.20 is 200m.

In the 109G2 that I usually fly, I set mg to 300m and cannon to 200m. That lets me try some long range deflections without having to deal with the cannon drop off.

Since I'm not that great a pilot or shot, I find letting everything go at 100m is the most effective for me ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HotelBushranger
01-23-2005, 07:35 AM
I've got my MG's to 250m and my cannons to 250m. Generally with these, the MGs are about to get up a Zeros **** and still do good/reasonable deflection shooting. As to the cannon, like you I only use it when close to an enemy, so DONT turn them to 200m lol cause IT DOESNT WORK!
I don't fly many cannon planes lol

Id say 100m would do fine for the cannons, and 200-300 for MG's. And yes its in K's, so 1.0 would be a K, and .25 would be 250m. So obviously its best to play some Quick Mission Builder with Icons on, so you know the best distances for you. Good luck and good shooting! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Yimmy
01-23-2005, 09:17 AM
I use 100m's for MG's and 200m's for cannon.

Prefer to get right up behind people than to waste ammo with deflection shooting, apart from if its a bomber.

With the Hurricane IIb, with 12 x .303's, you can really saw zero wings off at 100m's.

VFA-195 Snacky
01-23-2005, 01:37 PM
200-220m for 50 cals maybe stretch it to 250m for the long sniper shots, but I like having all of my guns converge on one point in space.

LEBillfish
01-23-2005, 05:00 PM
Do not worry about what "anyone" else sets their convergance to as it is you that is flying, not them.

Go into QMB, and run various 1 vs 2-3 missions in the ride you are most likely to fly vs. that the enemy will be in...Have icons on BUT IGNORE THEM.......Fly and when done save the track. Try it again with other types of planes both for you and for the enemy.

Do NOT worry if you are getting great shots or what your convergance is...Just fly, fight, save the tracks.

Shoot when it "feels right"...not when you think it's right, so just let it flow don't worry about the goal of this.

When done, get a piece of paper and a pen and watch the tracks.

IMPORTANT: do it from within the cockpit as if you are external ranges change to whatever your view is relative to the enemy plane.

Now, every time you "shoot" do not worry about whether you hit them or not write down the range. Go through all the tracks and put down the ranges all on the same list.

Now look over the ranges, I'll bet you see some that are much different then most but you will start to see a pattern or mean not an average.

Say you shoot 30 times, eliminate the lowest and highest 5 ranges. If you flew without thinking about it like told to, you will notice most of the shots probably fall into a 50m range.

So say of the ranges you have left the range varies from 150-200m, I'd suggest splitting the difference toward the high end. Forget about bullet mass, arc, etc....As what you are trying to do is determine what range you

INSINCTIVELY shoot at.

Initially with a 150-200 range, I'd set my MG's and cannon the same....WHY?....Because 9x out of ten you're firing all your guns at once...Just what people do initially. So I'd suggest maybe setting them to 175 -190.

See the point is not to spray all over a plane, but to group your hits together.

Then fly and enjoy.

Over time EXPECT this to change as your way of flying becomes more ingrained. Simply go back and do all this again. In time you can start setting your MGs and cannon more to suit them, rather then you. But start off this way.

Yimmy
01-23-2005, 05:04 PM
What sort of distances were the guns zeroed at in real life?

LEBillfish
01-23-2005, 09:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yimmy:
What sort of distances were the guns zeroed at in real life? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No offense meant but "who cares" as a sim can never be r/l. Neet to know, but worthwhile?...doubtful as r/l pilots could have their crews "modify" convergance and did to suit tastes.

VFA-195 Snacky
01-24-2005, 12:51 AM
US fighters in WWII had convergence settings anywhere from 300-350yds. This translates to around about 270-320 meters in PF. My personal preference is 220-250 meters in PF as this gives me a good long range concentrated shot. Even when they run I can still throw rounds downrange and get a lucky hit knocking out an engine,etc where as a lower convergence of 170 meters sends round around your target beyond that distance.
Convergence is not just about "taste". Convergence is everything when dealing with wing mounted MGs. It also makes a difference in PF as well.
Whatever convergence you decide on stick with it and dont switch around too much. find the sweet spot for your ability and leave it alone.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yimmy:
What sort of distances were the guns zeroed at in real life? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yimmy
01-24-2005, 09:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEBillfish:


No offense meant but "who cares" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me, hence why I asked.

Also, was it common in rl to have the cannons with a different zero to the MG's?

HARD_Sarge
01-24-2005, 10:53 AM
for me I normally set them with the MG aroudn 250 and the cannons around 180

but been flying some 109 G10/G14's and see that a lot of times on a sneak attack the cannon rounds seem to go low, so have adjusted it to more like 280 for MG and 310 for cannon

it seems to be working well for me

also, I like to fly with the vector showing, while not the same as a perdicker sight, it does help with where the rounds are going to end up when you fire

HARD_Sarge

VF-29_Sandman
01-24-2005, 06:46 PM
nose mounts will shoot differently from wing mounts. p-38's seems to have a much longer range with the same conv setting u'd have from a mustang..while the mustang will revert to a shotgun out of conv range, the 38 will still rip u apart.

prop-head
01-26-2005, 03:41 PM
One other thing to consider -- a/c shake while firing guns or while in turbulent air (bad weather). As your crate shakes about the rounds you're pumping out will scatter to at least some extent. Some a/c exhibit more shake while firing guns than others, and hence there will be greater dispersion in the bullet/cannon stream(s).

The best thing to do is get as close as possible, even if markedly under your set convergence. Less dispersion and higher velocity of the rounds will wreak more havoc. And you'll not have to deflect as much nor have to compensate as much for trajectory droop due to gravity.

By the way... this sim indeed does model bullet velocity decrease with distance. I've confirmed this by going to the external view and pulling my point of view back so as to be at least 1 km distant. By positioning my ghostly observer so as to be perpendicular to the line of fire, the tracers are seen to bunch a little more closely together as they arc out from the plane, kind of like highway traffic bunching up as autos ahead begin to slow down. And no, I've verified that this is not an effect of perspective by varying my viewing position.

chris455
01-26-2005, 08:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Do not worry about what "anyone" else sets their convergance to as it is you that is flying, not them.

Go into QMB, and run various 1 vs 2-3 missions in the ride you are most likely to fly vs. that the enemy will be in...Have icons on BUT IGNORE THEM.......Fly and when done save the track. Try it again with other types of planes both for you and for the enemy.

Do NOT worry if you are getting great shots or what your convergance is...Just fly, fight, save the tracks.

Shoot when it "feels right"...not when you think it's right, so just let it flow don't worry about the goal of this.

When done, get a piece of paper and a pen and watch the tracks.

IMPORTANT: do it from within the cockpit as if you are external ranges change to whatever your view is relative to the enemy plane.

Now, every time you "shoot" do not worry about whether you hit them or not write down the range. Go through all the tracks and put down the ranges all on the same list.

Now look over the ranges, I'll bet you see some that are much different then most but you will start to see a pattern or mean not an average.

Say you shoot 30 times, eliminate the lowest and highest 5 ranges. If you flew without thinking about it like told to, you will notice most of the shots probably fall into a 50m range.

So say of the ranges you have left the range varies from 150-200m, I'd suggest splitting the difference toward the high end. Forget about bullet mass, arc, etc....As what you are trying to do is determine what range you

INSINCTIVELY shoot at.

Initially with a 150-200 range, I'd set my MG's and cannon the same....WHY?....Because 9x out of ten you're firing all your guns at once...Just what people do initially. So I'd suggest maybe setting them to 175 -190.

See the point is not to spray all over a plane, but to group your hits together.

Then fly and enjoy.

Over time EXPECT this to change as your way of flying becomes more ingrained. Simply go back and do all this again. In time you can start setting your MGs and cannon more to suit them, rather then you. But start off this way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I posted to this effect awhile back. But thanks for posting it again Billfish.
As for "real life", the standard USN and USAAF practice was to harmonize the guns (either point or pattern) @ 1000'.

horseback
01-26-2005, 10:37 PM
...which works out to about 310m.

cheers

horseback

Zarathael
01-27-2005, 05:54 AM
Another thing to consider is that aircraft with fuselage/nose mounted weapons (P-38, P-80, BF110, me-262...) didn't require convergence at all, hence, they were far better gunnery platforms, and were much more effective at range. I'm not certain about the 109s, but I would thind with all their armament in the nose, (at least with some variants) they wouldn't have required it either, especially for the cannon, since it sits dead center anyway. I'm not sure if the sim models this, but I've seen evidence to support that it does. The one thing it DOES model though is that weapons are less effective at longer range simply due to muzzle velocity, so you might be hitting the other guy at 500 yards, but you're probably not doing any damage.

VF-29_Sandman
01-27-2005, 06:32 AM
305 meters will give u just a tad over 1000' convergance. it will not take u very long to close a 1000' gap in a high speed aircraft, and if u are strafing aaa sites, u'll want as much range as possible.

p-38's were known to kill from 1000' out, but the way i see it, to get that kill, the pilot would have to be a very good shot, and be a master ambusher to score at this range against a fighter. historically, the p-38 was the most difficult plane to shoot deflections in. out of all p-38 pilots, only about 2% were able to land hits in a deflection, and the plane was able to fire all guns within a 30" circle. and in the game, it's just as rough when in cockpit.

50 calibers seem to do quite well zero'd to this range. at least then, u can keep the bogey in the gunsite...like u would have to in rl. the mantra of 'lose sight, lose the fight' applies to both game and in rl.