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woofiedog
09-29-2004, 11:51 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Found this little bit of information on the YP-80A.
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/lait/site/pictures/YP-80%203.jpg
Here is the Link.
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/lait/site/YP-80A%20%2044-83026.htm

woofiedog
09-29-2004, 11:51 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Found this little bit of information on the YP-80A.
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/lait/site/pictures/YP-80%203.jpg
Here is the Link.
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/lait/site/YP-80A%20%2044-83026.htm

Jungmann
09-30-2004, 09:19 AM
I always wondered what happened to those P-80s sent to England. Thanks for the post, Woofiedog. A great example of the usefulness of these forums (forae?).

woofiedog
09-30-2004, 01:27 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gifHere is a little more information on the War Service of the YP80A.
Is states here that the only reson tyhe YP80A did not have any Air engagments was... it didn't meet any German Aircraft.

Thirteen YP-80A service test aircraft were ordered on March 10, 1944. Serials were 44-83023 through 44-83035. They were generally identical to the XP-80A and were powered by the General Electric I-40 turbojet, the production model of which was designated J33-GE-9 or -11. Armament was increased to six 0.50-in machine guns in the nose.

The USAAF wanted a photographic reconnaissance aircraft with the performance of the P-80, and, on September 23, 1944, they ordered that the second YP-80 (44-83024) be completed as an unarmed photo-recon ship. It was assigned the designation XF-14, the F designation being in the pre-1948 F-for-photographic reconnaissance series. In converting the aircraft to XF-14 configuration, the six 0.50-in machine guns in the nose of the YP-80A were taken out and replaced by a set of cameras. A window for the camera was built into the lower nose section in front of the nosewheel. The sides of the nose were left unblemished, unlike later P-80 reconnaissance models which had cameras on the side of the nose ahead of the air intakes. The career of the XF-14 was rather brief--it was destroyed on December 6, 1944 in a midair collision with a Lockheed-owned B-25 Mitchell during a test flight.

The first YP-80A took off on its maiden flight on September 13, 1944, beginning the manufacturer's trials. The trials got off to a horrible start. The third YP-80A (44-83025) crashed on its maiden flight on October 20, 1944, killing the well-known test pilot Milo Burcham.

In spite of the loss of the third YP-80A, four YP-80As were deployed to Europe in order to demonstrate their capabilities to combat crews and to help in the development of tactics to be used against Luftwaffe jet fighters. YP-80As 44-83026 and 44-83027 were shipped to England in mid-December 1944, but 44-83026 crashed on its second flight at Burtonwood, England, killing its pilot, Major Frederick Borsodi. 44-83027 was modified by Rolls-Royce to flight test the B-41, the prototype of the Nene turbojet. On November 14, 1945, it was destroyed in a crash landing after an engine failure. 44-83028 and 44-83029 were shipped to the Mediterranean. They actually flew some operational sorties, but they never encountered any enemy aircraft. Both of them fortunately managed to survive their tour of duty in Europe, but one of them crashed on August 2, 1945 after returning to the USA. The other one ended its useful life as a pilotless drone.

The remaining nine YP-80As were used for a variety of purposes, including operational evaluation and service trials. The first YP-80A was specially instrumented and was used by NACA at the Ames Aeronautical Laboratory at Moffett Field in California for high-speed diving trials. The tenth, eleventh, and twelfth YP-80As were delivered in 1945 to the 31st Fighter Squadron of the 412th Fighter Group at Bakersfield Municipal Airport in California for service tests.

Serial numbers:


44-83023 Lockheed YP-80A Shooting Star
c/n 080-1002
44-83024 Lockheed XF-14 Shooting Star
c/n 080-1003
Originally YP-80A No 2, redesignated during
production. Destroyed in mid-air collision
with B-25J 44-29120 near Muroc AB Dec 6, 1944.
All crew on both planes killed.
44-83025/83035 Lockheed YP-80A Shooting Star
c/n 080-1004/1014
83025 crashed Oct 20, 1944 Burbank, CA, killing Milo
Burcham.
83026 crashed Burtonwood, England, killing pilot
Maj. Frederick Borsodi
83027 fitted with Rolls-Royce Nene. Damaged beyond
repair in accident Nov 14, 1945.

Jungmann
09-30-2004, 01:51 PM
And I think **** Bong died in an early P-80 out of Burbank in late '45 or early '46. Your data is showing me these were dangerous birds in their first iteration--but I guess it matches the heavy accident rate of the Me 262 when it went through its service testing in '43 or so--crashes due to pilot error half the time and the other half from the unreliable technology.

On the other hand, Yeager was flying P-80s out of Wright Field at AAF airshows in late '45, and his best trick was to fly inverted down the runway with about three feet showing between his canopy and the concrete. That amazing stick-and-rudder capability is what helped make him a favorite of Colonel Boyd who, if I remember right, was running the Test Pilot school at Wright-Pat, and eventually got Yeager behind the wheel of the X-1 when the civilian test pilots Bell had hired for the program began to get cold feet and demanded a salary increase.

woofiedog
09-30-2004, 03:13 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gifHere is a little information Bongs last flight.
General Kenney pulled **** Bong out of combat when his score reached 40 and sent him home to "marry Marjorie and start thinking about raising a lot of towheaded Swedes." **** and Marge Vattendahl were married February 10, 1945 in Concordia Lutheran Church in Superior, an event attended by 1,200 guests and covered by the international press.

The couple honeymooned in California for several weeks where their stops included Hollywood and the Sequoia National Park before reporting to the Flight Test Section of the Air Technical Command at Wright Field (Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio). **** began training for a new assignment in Burbank, California: testing the plane that would take the Air Force into the jet age - the Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star.

In California he reported to Lieutenant Colonel C. J. Langmack, head of the Air Force Department at Lockheed and in charge of all flying, experimental testing and acceptance of Army Air Forces aircraft there. From July 7th to August 6th he made 11 test flights and logged over 4 hours flight time in the Shooting Star.

**** Bong was intrigued by the new jet fighter and enthusiastic about his assignment. On August 6, 1945 (the day the Enola Gay dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima) **** Bong was killed when the P-80 he was testing stalled on takeoff and he bailed out at low altitude. His body, partially wrapped in the shrouds of his parachute, was found 100 feet from the plane's jet engine. On 8 August 1945 he was burried in the Poplar cemetary, Poplar, Wisconsin.
http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/ozatwar/bong03.jpg

woofiedog
09-30-2004, 03:33 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gifJungmann... it does seem that the YP-80A was having it's problems... but I wonder if it was more of the Newness or the getting use to the Jet Engines over the Prop Aircraft.
When some of the pilots in WW2 were going from fixed landing gear to a retracting landing gear... they were also having landing problems. The pilots were forgetting to drop their landing gear when landing.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gifIt would have been interesting to see the outcome of a real incounter between the ME 262 and the YP80A... or if the British had deployed the Meteor.
http://www.flyvintage.com/images/dx/events/2000/0909/report_photos/images/meteor_vz467_02.jpg

Jungmann
09-30-2004, 04:04 PM
Woofiedog, I heard the Brits did deploy the Meteor--that it was on the Continent, but it never went operational. True?

I've tried the P-80 and the Me 262 in QMB but aren't that turned on by them. The engines are too fussy and catch fire too easily if you don't INCH them. Stall too easy. The 262 is great for making pursuit curve attacks on B-17s, if shooting down bombers floats your boat--although so much muzzle blast, you have to wait for the smoke to clear before you can tell if you hit anything. I guess I'm just a prop-job puke.

woofiedog
09-30-2004, 11:03 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gifJungmann... I was able to find this info on the Meteor Combat on the Continent.
http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avmet3.gif
[4] METEOR MARK III
* The Meteor "Mark III (G-41C)" was the first variant to go into full production. 210 were built, with initial deliveries to the RAF beginning in December 1944 and the last of the variant rolled out in 1947. The Meteor Is were all quickly replaced by Meteor IIIs.

The Meteor III featured a stronger airframe, greater internal fuel capacity, and a rear-sliding canopy, as opposed to the side-hinged canopy of the Meteor I. The first 15 Meteor IIIs were powered by Rolls-Royce W.2B / Welland I turbojets, but the rest were fitted with Rolls-Royce Derwent I turbojets with 8.83 kN (900 kg / 2,000 lb) thrust each. The heavier engines increased the balance problem, and the solution was to add yet more ballast.


A few Meteor IIIs flew to the Continent in January 1945 and operated out of the Low Countries with the 2nd Tactical Air Force until the end of the war in early May 1945. They performed ground strafing attacks, but never engaged in air combat. Meteor pilots were keen to test their aircraft against the Messerschmitt Me-262 jet fighter, but at least initially they had orders not to fly beyond enemy lines lest one of their aircraft be shot down and examined, and as the war dragged on to its finale, the Luftwaffe flew fewer and fewer sorties as German fuel supplies dwindled. The first jet dogfights would have to wait for the next war.

Some Meteors were painted white during the winter of 1944:1945 for camouflage, and also so that that Allied anti-aircraft gunners wouldn't mistake them for German jets. Meteors were fired on anyway, but none were lost to "friendly fire", though there were losses due to fatal flight accidents.

Just after the end of the war in Europe, a few Meteor IIIs were evaluated for possible use in the photo-reconnaissance role, but at the time their performance was not appreciably superior to the Spitfire PR.XIX, the Meteor's range definitely worse. The idea was not adopted, but it wasn't forgotten, either.

woofiedog
09-30-2004, 11:26 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif I rather fly Early Prop... but once in a while I fly the Jets or the German Rocket Plane.
I find the P-80 a better performer than the ME-262... but that Muzzel blast is one of the main reasons I don't care for the ME-262.
Both Jets you have to use tender care with your power changes... or you get the flaming engine syndrome or in the case of the P-80... the engine cuts out.
The ME-163 on other hand is a High performer... with Great handling. And with a little practice is Killer... but of very short duration. I can get about three Bombers on a flight before I run out of Ammo or Fuel.
But I fully agree Prop's is the way to go. And the Earlier the Better as far as WW2 Fighters go... Hurricane, Mig Series, P-40, P-38 because of it's ship killing powers, G50, J8A, Fiat 42, Zero, Yak 7A/B and Me-109E Series. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

woofiedog
09-30-2004, 11:34 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gifFound a video about the Meteor. http://www.aviationmuseum.com.au/aircraft/documents/Meteor_001.wmv

Web Link.
http://www.aviationmuseum.com.au/aircraft/Meteor.cfm

WUAF_Badsight
09-30-2004, 11:35 PM
Meteor was deployed in Europe

no way was it a DFing match for the Schwalb tho

they had teething probs with the YP-80 cos it was a POS & needed major refining

even the T-33's had touchy-as-hell throttles

woofiedog
09-30-2004, 11:51 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gifWUAF_Badsight... I agree that the early jets were all having one problem or another.
Basicly because it was a brand new Devolpement for all sides. And it was pushing the Flight envolpes of the times and also they were pushing the limits of the materials at that time in making the Jet Engines.
Teething problems arose because all sides were pushing for fast devolpement.
And as far as Jet VS Jet or which was better... a Plane or Jet is only as Good as it's Pilot.

WUAF_Badsight
10-01-2004, 12:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by woofiedog:

And as far as Jet VS Jet or which was better... a Plane or Jet is only as Good as it's Pilot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

the FA/22 Raptor has a 486 : 1 kill record against Eagles & Falcons & Hornets

if we are comparing DF ability , then the Schwalb is the far superior plane over the Meteor

woofiedog
10-01-2004, 02:05 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif But if you look at the kill ratio of Rachel Welsh VS Britney Spears 1000/1 kill ratio.
I'd still pick Nancy Sinatra.

Jungmann
10-01-2004, 10:19 AM
So Woofiedog and Badsight, a single-mission DF over Holland in June 1945 between a Meteor scrambling to meet an incoming 262 bombing its base would be HISTORICALLY ACCURATE! Take note, patch collectors.

Wseivelod
10-01-2004, 01:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jungmann:
And I think **** Bong died in an early P-80 out of Burbank in late '45 or early '46.

On the other hand, Yeager was flying P-80s out of Wright Field at AAF airshows in late '45, and his best trick was to fly inverted down the runway with about three feet showing between his canopy and the concrete. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

******* Bong died on 9/6/45, or 6/9/45 for you non-US-ers.


And 3 feet between cockpit and ground inverted is not possible for more then a micro second...... maybe you meant 3 feet between rudder and ground, hehe

woofiedog
10-01-2004, 02:14 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif Jungmann... I was just thinking. With the War About to End in May 8 1945... Why would the German Airforce fly a mission againest the Allied Air Field so close to the END!

Quote...So Woofiedog and Badsight, a single-mission DF over Holland in June 1945 between a Meteor scrambling to meet an incoming 262 bombing its base would be HISTORICALLY ACCURATE! Take note, patch collectors.

I believe your correct though... accept for the month. I have read about that Scramble... but can't find any info just now.

Cmte. Carvalho
10-01-2004, 05:03 PM
Very nice... Sometime ago a friend promissed me that he would make a Gloster Meteor model for IL-2, but today i still wait for this, hehehehehehe... I hope to fly this british bird in the game, especially because the Brazilian Air Force used it...

Jungmann
10-01-2004, 06:48 PM
"And 3 feet between cockpit and ground inverted is not possible for more then a micro second...... maybe you meant 3 feet between rudder and ground, hehe"

Quite right.

SkyChimp
10-01-2004, 07:24 PM
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/meteor.jpg