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Wildnoob
04-11-2010, 07:17 PM
From Mr. Long of j-aircraft (http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=4771.0):


Subject: OSCAR VS P-40

I took the following excerpt from an official intelligence report which was originally classified CONFIDENTIAL. The document is called INFORMATIONAL INTELLIGENCE SUMMARY No. 44-14, 30 April 1944. I scanned the text from a hard copy using an OCR program and checked the results for errors, correcting the errors that I found. The text is word-for-word.

The OSCAR used in these trials was the same plane used in the trials against a P-38 that I reported on earlier.

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=4619.0

Its original Japanese manufacture number is not known, but we know it in captivity as XJ002, a Ki-43 of the first model which was captured on 16 September 1943 at Lae. It was shipped to the technical intelligence unit at Eagle Farm Airfield, Brisbane, then rebuilt and first flown again on 17 March 1944. The trials were conducted as soon as possible, as can be seen by the date of is first flight in captivity and the date of the intelligence report: 30 April 1944.

The rebuilt OSCAR was given a protective coating of paint, probably a light gray of some sort. It carried XJ002 on its fin and rudder, presumably on both sides, and U.S. star-and-bars insignia on the fuselage sides and on the wings, top of the left and bottom of the right. It did not have the blue bar and red and white stripes on the rudder.

Although we do not know the exact original Japanese manufacture number at this time, we do know which Ki-43s of the first model were captured at Lae. XJ002 was one of these:

Manufacture Numbers – Dates of completion
239 December 1941
328 February 1942
397 April 1942
400 April 1942
426 April 1942
466 May 1942
520 June 1942
622 August 1942
646 September 1942
674 September 1942
808 December 1942
810 December 1942

These planes ranged from the 139th Ki-43 assembled by Nakajima in December 1941 to the 710th Ki-43 assembled by Nakajima in December 1942.* That data let the Allied intelligence analysts know that Nakajima had assembled about 572 of these planes in the 12-month period, an average of about 48 fighters per month. The actual quantity from 1 December 1941 through 31 December 1942 was 584, as determined after the war by the USSBS inspection teams that collected production data from the various Japanese aircraft manufactures.

(* NOTE: The manufacture numbers for the first run of Ki-43 aircraft had a base number of 100 added to each true serial number. Thus, in effect, the first Ki-43 had manufacture number 101 and a true serial number of 1. In order the find a plane's true place in the production run, you must subtract 100 from the manufacture number.)

Jim Long

[BEGINNING OF TRANSCRIPTION]

P-40 vs. OSCAR TRIALS

Performance tests between a reconstructed Type 1 F OSCAR Mk 1 and a P-40N were recently carried out in the Southwest Pacific Area. The pilots' individual reports of the combat trials as reported by Allied Headquarters, SWPA, are published in this article.


BACKGROUND

The P-40N was piloted by a flight leader of a Fighter Squadron who had a total of 650 hours in a P-40N. He also had combat experience against enemy fighters.

The OSCAR Mk 1 was piloted by another flight leader who had considerable combat experience in a P-40N against enemy fighters and a total of approximately two hours flying experience in an OSCAR prior to the trials.

REPORT OF OSCAR PILOT

"I joined the P-40 after take-off and climbed to 5,000 feet. The P-40 climbed to 6,000 feet and dove on my tail. In a tight turn to the left, the OSCAR made three and a half turns before reaching a firing position behind the P-40. The turns were tight enough to keep half blacked out all the way around but didn’t pull any streamers. The P-40 pulled streamers all the way around.

"The P-40 then dove on my tail again and in a turn to the right it took me two and a half turns to get on his tail. It was much harder to get on his tail going to the right (at 5,000 feet) than at 10,000 feet, but easier than on a turn to the left.

"On two hammer-head stalls, the P-4N followed the OSCAR all the way up, keeping on the outside and cutting back to keep from overrunning. Kicking it off at 70 and 60 mph respectively, the P-40 stayed in easy gun range in the dive following.

"I looped the OSCAR at 240 mph and the P-40 followed up part of the way, breaking off in a hammerhead stall. I reached the bottom of the loop and by going part way up in another I kicked off and fell on the P-40's tail as he dove out from his stall.

"When I dove on the P-40 in a turn to the left, after the initial 90° it was easy to stay inside his turn, reaching firing position at 270°. This didn't cause any blackout or pulling streamers from the OSCAR. Turns were tried twice, each bringing the same results with Indicated Air Speed (IAS) at start of 180 and 210 mph respectively for the OSCAR.

“On two turns to the right in the initial 90° of the P-40’s turn, the OSCAR skids outside due to his speed, but after that it is much easier to come in firing position than by turn to the left. At 18O° the OSCAR is set to fire.

"The P-40 pulled up into a hammer-head stall and the OSCAR was too far back for a shot, but climbed above the P-40 and on diving out turned inside and easily caught up.

"The P-40 dove for a loop and pulled away from the OSCAR, indicating 270. The P-40 went into its loop and when it started down from the top of the loop the OSCAR was just passing under him. By making a very tight loop, the OSCAR was on the P-40's tail halfway up in another loop.

"All tests were run with the OSCAR at 30" Hg, and 2,150 RPM.

"Climbing from 5,000 feet to 10,000 feet was at 34" Hg and 2,200 RPM, indicating a climb of l,800 feet per minute and 110 mph. Above 10,000 feet, the OSCAR seemed to climb better at IAS of 130, but would like to check again to make sure. Best rate of climb above 12,000 feet was 900 feet per minute, with IAS 130, 2,200 RPM, and 32" Hg.

"When the OSCAR was at 15,000 feet, the P-40 at 20,000 feet developed trouble and we returned to the field."

REPORT OF P-40N PILOT

"I was flying the P-40 against the OSCAR. The maneuvering was done at 5,000 feet. I would start at 6,000 feet and level off approximately 500 yards behind OSCAR in the following manner:

"I dived on OSCAR and he started a 70° left turn. My IAS was 230 as we started and I pulled in to 130. We made three and a half turns before OSCAR was in firing position. I dived on OSCAR and he started a 70° right turn. My IAS was 220 as we went in and it dropped to 130 to 120. Then we only made two and a half or three turns at the most before OSCAR was in the firing position.

"I dived on OSCAR with IAS of 200 as we started into a hammer-head stall. I had to cut back on the throttle to keep from overrunning. By staying on outside of turn I could stay on his tail. IAS at top of stall was about 75 mph.

"OSCAR looped but my IAS was only 260 and I decided not to loop with it. Instead, I pulled up into a hammer-head stall, but as I was recovering OSCAR could have gotten a shot at me from the bottom, my IAS at top of stall being 100.

"P-40 handles much better at 10,000 feet than at 5,000 feet, appears to be too 'mushy’ at 5,000 feet.

"On the following maneuvers, P-40 was at 5,000 feet and OSCAR would dive from 6,000 feet. I went into a 70° left turn at 190 mph and pulled in to 120 mph on the turn, OSCAR skidded outside for 90° but when his speed was killed he could turn in steep. He was in a firing position after 270° or 360° had been completed. Two turns were made with the same results; my IAS at slowest point was 120 mph.

"I went into a right 70° turn at an air speed of 200 mph. The same thing happened as it did in left turn, only it didn't take quite 270° for OSCAR to get in a good position. My slowest IAS in turn was 120 mph. I started a hammer-head stall from 180 mph and outdistanced the OSCAR, but altitude remained the same. As I would kick off, OSCAR would turn inside and in a good position. As I picked up speed I would outdistance him again. My lowest IAS was 95.

"I dived to 310 mph and pulled into a loop. I had pulled far ahead of OSCAR but made a tight loop. As I was on my back falling through the top of loop, I saw OSCAR start a very tight loop. As I was regaining altitude, the OSCAR finished his loop and was once again in a good firing position."

[END OF TRANSCRIPTION]

References Consulted:

1. GAKKEN No. 52, Type 1 Fighter “Hyabusa,”page 168.
2. Phil Butler, War Prizes: The Album, page 90.
3. Production and Serial Number Table for the Ki-43, by James I. Long, Copyright 1995, AIR’TELL Publications & Research Service.
4. Office of the Assistant Chief of Air Staff, Intelligence, Washington D.C., Crashed Enemy Aircraft Report #17, Part 1, Type, Code Name, Manufacture, Serial Number and Assembly Date of Japanese Aircraft Captured at Lae, Munda, Vila Strip, Rekata Bay,pages 3 and 4.
5. Army Air Forces Informational Intelligence Summary No. 44-14, 30 April 1944, page 27.

Wildnoob
04-11-2010, 07:32 PM
This is one of my favourite matches in IL2.

LEBillfish
04-11-2010, 09:57 PM
Look further on the site and you'll also find other Ki-43 vs. ______ reports transcribed by Mr. Long.

K2

Wildnoob
04-11-2010, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Look further on the site and you'll also find other Ki-43 vs. ______ reports transcribed by Mr. Long.

K2

Yeah. Thanks LEBillfish http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

About performance, a member of J-aicraft has posted:


Type 1 Fighter, model 2

Max speed 515kph @ 6000m (2700rpm +200 boost); 504@3000 (2700 +125)

Stalling speed w/o flaps 120kph; with 30 deg flaps 105kph

Turn performance - left 93.7m radius, 10.8 secs (330kph, 2700rpm, +200)
right- 91.9m, 11.0 secs at altitude 600m

Climb to 1000, 1m13sec, 13.87m/s, 235kph (2700 +200)
Climb to 6000, 7m24s, 9.9m/s, 210kph (2700 +110)

Loop initiated at 350kph, speed at top 130kph

Loop roll (Immelmann?) Initiated at 350kph and 2300rpm altitude gain about 500m

Initiating climb at 350kph a 50 deg climb can be maintained 1000m, final air speed 180kph

Although possible to perform the following maneuvers are to be avoided - half rolls, fast barrel rolls, spins, inverted climbs, and steep pull ups at high speed.

Pilot manual issued by Akeno Flying School (16 Jan 43) Pilot manual issued by Akeno Flying School (16 Jan 43)

Our Ki-43 model I has a top speed of 495 km/h, therefore 20 km/h slower according with the Japanese manual.

Like with the A6M2, again higher speeds can be found in Japanese sources in comparison with second hand allied data, witch is well within the margin of error for wartime testing but unfortenetely is also the data used by Oleg.

Erkki_M
04-12-2010, 01:40 AM
Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Look further on the site and you'll also find other Ki-43 vs. ______ reports transcribed by Mr. Long.

K2

Yeah. Thanks LEBillfish http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

About performance, a member of J-aicraft has posted:


Type 1 Fighter, model 2

Max speed 515kph @ 6000m (2700rpm +200 boost); 504@3000 (2700 +125)

Stalling speed w/o flaps 120kph; with 30 deg flaps 105kph

Turn performance - left 93.7m radius, 10.8 secs (330kph, 2700rpm, +200)
right- 91.9m, 11.0 secs at altitude 600m

Climb to 1000, 1m13sec, 13.87m/s, 235kph (2700 +200)
Climb to 6000, 7m24s, 9.9m/s, 210kph (2700 +110)

Loop initiated at 350kph, speed at top 130kph

Loop roll (Immelmann?) Initiated at 350kph and 2300rpm altitude gain about 500m

Initiating climb at 350kph a 50 deg climb can be maintained 1000m, final air speed 180kph

Although possible to perform the following maneuvers are to be avoided - half rolls, fast barrel rolls, spins, inverted climbs, and steep pull ups at high speed.

Pilot manual issued by Akeno Flying School (16 Jan 43) Pilot manual issued by Akeno Flying School (16 Jan 43)

Our Ki-43 model I has a top speed of 495 km/h, therefore 20 km/h slower according with the Japanese manual.

Like with the A6M2, again higher speeds can be found in Japanese sources in comparison with second hand allied data, witch is well within the margin of error for wartime testing but unfortenetely is also the data used by Oleg. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, IL2C says 530kmph at 6000m and 492kmph at 3000m. Its also known for being some +-5kmph off at standard conditions, so its pretty accurate, I'd say.

M_Gunz
04-12-2010, 01:41 AM
IL2 model is 4% slow then? Within serial manufacturing differences. You fault that?

Wildnoob
04-12-2010, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by Erkki_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Look further on the site and you'll also find other Ki-43 vs. ______ reports transcribed by Mr. Long.

K2

Yeah. Thanks LEBillfish http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

About performance, a member of J-aicraft has posted:


Type 1 Fighter, model 2

Max speed 515kph @ 6000m (2700rpm +200 boost); 504@3000 (2700 +125)

Stalling speed w/o flaps 120kph; with 30 deg flaps 105kph

Turn performance - left 93.7m radius, 10.8 secs (330kph, 2700rpm, +200)
right- 91.9m, 11.0 secs at altitude 600m

Climb to 1000, 1m13sec, 13.87m/s, 235kph (2700 +200)
Climb to 6000, 7m24s, 9.9m/s, 210kph (2700 +110)

Loop initiated at 350kph, speed at top 130kph

Loop roll (Immelmann?) Initiated at 350kph and 2300rpm altitude gain about 500m

Initiating climb at 350kph a 50 deg climb can be maintained 1000m, final air speed 180kph

Although possible to perform the following maneuvers are to be avoided - half rolls, fast barrel rolls, spins, inverted climbs, and steep pull ups at high speed.

Pilot manual issued by Akeno Flying School (16 Jan 43) Pilot manual issued by Akeno Flying School (16 Jan 43)

Our Ki-43 model I has a top speed of 495 km/h, therefore 20 km/h slower according with the Japanese manual.

Like with the A6M2, again higher speeds can be found in Japanese sources in comparison with second hand allied data, witch is well within the margin of error for wartime testing but unfortenetely is also the data used by Oleg. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, IL2C says 530kmph at 6000m and 492kmph at 3000m. Its also known for being some +-5kmph off at standard conditions, so its pretty accurate, I'd say. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry for my error. I took this data from the view object section witch specified only 492 km/h at 4000m.

BillSwagger
04-12-2010, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by Wildnoob:
This is one of my favorite matches in IL2.

Its at the top of my list also. I think i could fly either plane against the other with the same confidence and know that they are probably equally as survivable with the proper tactics.


Originally posted by M_Gunz:
IL2 model is 4% slow then? Within serial manufacturing differences. You fault that?

I think there is the capability to do better, of course, a lot of these types of things really just have to do with access to more accurate information.
But then think about how often an Oscars wings fold over for doing the following:
"Although possible to perform the following maneuvers are to be avoided - half rolls, fast barrel rolls, spins, inverted climbs, and steep pull ups at high speed."

Its give and take, to an extent. You want the faster plane, but not one that folds a wing when trying to pull up or doing a half roll at high speed. Then again, it would be more realistic and challenging to fly such a plane. It makes for great historical continuity, but outside the context of the pacific theater the Oscar is already an underdog.



Bill

Wildnoob
04-12-2010, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
But then think about how often an Oscars wings fold over for doing the following:
"Although possible to perform the following maneuvers are to be avoided - half rolls, fast barrel rolls, spins, inverted climbs, and steep pull ups at high speed."

Its give and take, to an extent. You want the faster plane, but not one that folds a wing when trying to pull up or doing a half roll at high speed. Then again, it would be more realistic and challenging to fly such a plane. It makes for great historical continuity, but outside the context of the pacific theater the Oscar is already an underdog.



Bill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-eBmnpCO18

This is a very interesting interview with a Ki-43 ace. He complains a lot about the fragility of the model I.

DKoor
04-12-2010, 01:21 PM
I find the whole Pacific theatre fascinating... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Martyr_JG88
04-12-2010, 05:43 PM
Oscar's are fun targets

TinyTim
04-12-2010, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Martyr_JG88:
Oscar's are fun targets

They are indeed. Whenever I'm boom'n'zooming one in my P-40 or a P-38 I feel like playing with a scorpion.

mortoma
04-12-2010, 06:43 PM
I never have had any trouble against Oscars either online or against AI. One time a long time ago I was online flying in a COOP mission in a P-39. This one dude ended up behind me in a Oscar during a big fur ball melee. Well I start pulling away from him with my faster plane but he keeps following me anyway. So after I was like 3 kliks in front of him I pulled straight up in a near perfect vertical climb. He pulls up after me but I was already slowed and coming down at the top of a loop. I was high enough above him and getting fast enough going in a downward dive that I recovered sufficient control of my control surfaces to hose him down with Mg fire. That was his undoing as he caught on fire and you can guess the rest.....