PDA

View Full Version : Worse FW190 A4 in 4.02 Oo



CMHQ_Rikimaru
10-22-2005, 05:58 AM
Again im disappointed.... I was dogfighting today with my cousin, he was flying on BF 109 G2, and i was flying on FW 190 A4, ofcourse he outmanouvered me after some time, and i started diving, then i climbed up with high speed (350+km/h), and what I see? He was faster! When i had 330km/h he had 380km/h, he didnt had energy advantage because i dive better, nor i have been damaged. We repeated this situation few times, and all the times he climbed better on high speed. And im asking a question, how fw 190 A4 is now better in this game? FW have only better roll, dives a bit better, and he turns a lil better then BF 109 on high speed. So im making a question "what for would be FW 190 made if it would be worse in almost all parameters then BF 190?". And Oleg, dont say "you has wrong logic, be sure", but FW 190 should be pretty better AC than BF(better acceleration, much better roll on hgih speeds, and FW 190 was better vertical fighter than BF, its not my opinion, i have readed a lot of manuals, pilots experiences, etc...).

ICDP
10-22-2005, 06:06 AM
Rikmaru,

The only thing I can suggest is that you extend at low level and keep alt at lower than 4000m. The 190A4 is faster than the 109G2 at these alts and you can extend then use the distance created to gain an alt advantage. Climb at around 380-450kph and he can't catch you in these shallow climbs. Keep speed high at all time in the Fw190.

The 109G2 is a better climber and is faster at higher altitudes 4000+ metres. At low speeds he can eat you alive.

CMHQ_Rikimaru
10-22-2005, 06:20 AM
Ofcourse, i know it, im not newbiehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I climbed 350 km/h, and focke wulf was one of the best climbing planes on high speeds in WWII. We was flying in low altitudes, 0-2000m, u should check it urselfhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have done this trick in 4.01, i always climbed better on high speeds, but now.... check urselfhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JtD
10-22-2005, 06:33 AM
But against the G-2 350 is too slow. The G-2 is a fast plane, you have to go about 500 before you get any reasonable climb advantage.

CMHQ_Rikimaru
10-22-2005, 06:37 AM
JtD, i dont know but maybe u use some cheats if u can climb in FW while u are flying 500km/h. If u mean that i should start climbing on 500km/h, yes I started climbing on 560km/h in a gentle climbhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jaws2002
10-22-2005, 06:44 AM
You have a heck of an advantage in rollrate at high speed (in 4.02). Get to 4000-5000m and let him follow you in a dive, then do a quick scissors and you can easily get behind him for a quick shot. At high speed he got to be very smart to follow you with the 109 in this patch.
You can easy make him get out of the dive the other way just by rolling. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CMHQ_Rikimaru
10-22-2005, 06:50 AM
Jaws, how can i get from ground lvl to 4000-5000m, if he climb faster on all speeds?http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If anyone would like, we can meet on my df server, and we could check this ourselfhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If someone here is a very good FW pilot, i would gladly learn somethinghttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JtD
10-22-2005, 06:58 AM
At 500 kph you will have a very slow climbrate, only like 3 m/s. It's almost level flight.

CMHQ_Rikimaru
10-22-2005, 07:00 AM
Ummm, i used to climb better then bf on speeds above 350km/h http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jaws2002
10-22-2005, 07:17 AM
ok,i'll be in the lobby. Let's do some testing.

PS. I suck but I can try. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

CMHQ_Rikimaru
10-22-2005, 07:24 AM
Sorry, i cannot now, we can meet in some date.but you have post ithttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

anarchy52
10-22-2005, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
You have a heck of an advantage in rollrate at high speed (in 4.02). Get to 4000-5000m and let him follow you in a dive, then do a quick scissors and you can easily get behind him for a quick shot. At high speed he got to be very smart to follow you with the 109 in this patch.
You can easy make him get out of the dive the other way just by rolling. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FW-190 in this patch can only be used for hit & run. In 4.01 you could "fight" if you had e advantage, force your opponent to turn hard and maintain e advantage. It used to be able to follow spitfires for about quarter of a circle when at 500km/h or more. Now it will happily stall at 550km/h +. In 4.02 focke is back to "the good old days focke". Only hit and run.

CMHQ_Rikimaru
10-22-2005, 08:58 AM
"Good Old"?Are u kidding? Now focke wulf is worst that he have ever been, it was one of the best vertical fighters in WWII!

p1ngu666
10-22-2005, 09:07 AM
dont u guys know 109 was best at everything? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

OldMan____
10-22-2005, 09:18 AM
I am really sacered with this pathc, first time I see that most people simply doesn't liek a patch!

Unfortunately I still can't test it.

AT my view 4.01 FW had the best FW ever.. shoudl only get corrections on DM. I must get a new X45.. i need to fly again!!!... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

CMHQ_Rikimaru
10-22-2005, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
dont u guys know 109 was best at everything? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

You know, 109 was very good plane, but focke wulf 190 was better, thats not my opinion but rl pilotshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kwiatos
10-22-2005, 09:41 AM
Fw 190 was better then 109? Not clearly i think.
Bf 109 was always better in climb rate, medium to slow speed turn rate and had better performance at high alt. Fw 190 was better in roll rate, high speed manouver, dive and have better firepower. So everything depends of terms when fight is. In my opinion Bf 109 in fight 1 vs 1 have more adventages over 190 beacuse and with its better climb rate could dictate the fight. Some german aces prefer to fly 109 to end of war beacuse of these adventages.

CMHQ_Rikimaru
10-22-2005, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Kwiatos:
Fw 190 was better then 109? Not clearly i think.
Bf 109 was always better in climb rate, medium to slow speed turn rate and had better performance at high alt. Fw 190 was better in roll rate, high speed manouver, dive and have better firepower. So everything depends of terms when fight is. In my opinion Bf 109 in fight 1 vs 1 have more adventages over 190 beacuse and with its better climb rate could dictate the fight. Some german aces prefer to fly 109 to end of war beacuse of these adventages.

Umm Focke Wulf had pretty good engine, so really good accerelation, better than bfhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif BF climbed better but on low speeds, and here it climb better on all speeds.
And there was also one thing that isnt represented in that game:
Focke Wulf reacted on stick really instantly, light and easy, while BF was heeeeavy.

tigertalon
10-22-2005, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by ICDP:
Climb at around 380-450kph and he can't catch you in these shallow climbs.

Are you sure? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tigertalon
10-22-2005, 10:27 AM
Guys, we are mixing dueling with dogfighting again.

Starting same alt, for dueling 1v1, Fw190 is a pretty poor airplane. In a 16v16 dogfight, Fw190 will rule anything else.

With it's speed Fw190s are dragging for eachother, and Fw190 usualy needs only one good firing solution and opponent is out of combat. You cannot drag for somebody if you are alone.

Moral of the story: Whenever you fly Fw190, don't fly alone, if you want to dogfight, not only bounce with alt advantage. Mixed group of 190/109 is a perfect combination.

Jetbuff
10-22-2005, 10:33 AM
I must agree though: something's off with the E-bleed. It's either too lenient again or planes are regaining lost E far too quickly. (uber acceleration across the board) This does not bode well for proper E-fighting.

CMHQ_Rikimaru
10-22-2005, 10:54 AM
FW 190 was excellent verctical(energy) fighter, but it isnt anymore so good, cause one of the best advantages have been taken, high speed climbinghttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Ofcourse i know that i shouldnt dogfight fw vs bf, but my cousin isnt so good pilot, so im takin worse for dueling machinehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But i cannot undestand anymore these weakness of pretty good machine, that was Focke Wulf 190. Focke Wulf in forgotten battles, have never been as good as it was in rl, and it wont never be, because of our friend Oleg, who dont want to let his russian brothers fall down all the timeshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But thats why most of skilled players fly german planes, you can ask why? Answer is simple, because you have to think, and NOT just pull ur stick to ur balls like in La7. So if Oleg want more good players on russian side, he should make planes more realhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Ofcourse im not saying that there arent good pilots on VVS side, but i guess that everyone see that most of top aces are in LWhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Grey_Mouser67
10-23-2005, 05:38 PM
The 109 has been overmodelled in the dive for quite some time so vertical E fighting against it is not a good idea...in fact, the G2 is one of the very best E fighters in the game.

Someone early mentioned dueling vs. dogfighting...in real life, the ability to disengage meant life and meant you won....the Fw will win that battle EVERY time.

You can not expect to take a plane and reverse your fortunes on an enemy pilot...especially if he does not have to worry about your wingman showing up.

If your pal fights me in a 109, I will win...or fly away. I will not win a dogfight because he will always turn inside me and outclimb me...at best I can extend and turn around and do head on after head on...which the Fw will win most of the time btw except against Mk108's...and in real life, probably against those. Many 1 on 1's wind up as a series of head ons if one plane is faster than the other but not more manueverable....not a good comparison.

Also, both aircraft have identical critical altitudes so there is no advantage there for the Fw.

In real life, fist look and first kill. The 109 excelled over the tundra of the Soviet Union and went down in flames over Europe...the 190 did not do as well over the Eastern front but was a more difficult target for allies because it more closely matched the strenghts of allied aircraft...fast, good high speed control, roll rate, and good vertical characteristics.

Nothing wrong with the A-4 imho and I fly it a lot...one of my favorites!

faustnik
10-23-2005, 07:22 PM
The A4 didn't really change as far as performance in 4.02. The global FM changed to favor yank & bank over boom & zoom.

p1ngu666
10-23-2005, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by CMHQ_Rikimaru:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
dont u guys know 109 was best at everything? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

You know, 109 was very good plane, but focke wulf 190 was better, thats not my opinion but rl pilotshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hehe, forum joke http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

IRL the 190 was the better of the two, tho the russians didnt respect them as much as teh 109

Tully__
10-24-2005, 12:58 AM
then i climbed up with high speed (350+km/h)
I'm no Luftwaffe expert, but 350km/hr is not fast for a Fw190. You need to maintain much higher speed.

alert_1
10-24-2005, 02:02 AM
________________________________________________
Mixed group of 190/109 is a perfect combination.
________________________________________________

Exactly! Last night I engaged what looked like one Me109 but it was only decoy. I ended in furball wuth 2 Me109 suppored by 2 Fw109. 3cm MG exploding everywhere http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif I was lucky enough to manage crash landing when my AsH82FN cooked up on me...They were really unbeatable! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WTE_Ibis
10-24-2005, 02:22 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Jetbuff
10-24-2005, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
The A4 didn't really change as far as performance in 4.02. The global FM changed to favor yank & bank over boom & zoom.
You think so too huh? Well how do we actually about testing this assertion? No one's going to just take our word for it.

AlsaceLtMartell
10-24-2005, 05:58 AM
Here are some stats I found of most of the specialists talking about the german planes and I think that the whole game is far from reality concerning the german fighters :

BF109E : Max speed : 570 km/h
Max Alt : 11.000 m

BF109G6 :Max speed : 635 km/h
Max Alt : 9.000 m (climbing 15m/sec at 400 km/h)

FW190A8 :Max speed : 656km/h
Max alt : 11.410 m

FW190D9 :Max speed : 704 km/h
Max Alt : 10.000 m (climbing easyly 1km/min)

TA152 : Max speed : 760 km/h
Max altitude : 14800m

All these planes reached their max speed at 6.000m, the G6 650km/h at 8700m, same for the G2. The Focke A8 reached 670km/h at 6200m, and D9 756km/h at 8700m

All these speeds were recorded on an horizontal flights, and the speed was reached within 45 secs after stoping climbing.

So if anyone of you ever seen a german fighter reach those speeds in any version of PF+FG+AEP without diving or without cheating is a very lucky man indeed.

Something more I want to say. BF109 initial project was launched 1934. The project of the FW was launched 1938. The target of the second project was to build a better fighter than the 109. All the experts that flew on the prototypes during 1939 were impressed by the charachteristics of the FW, and the plane entered service in 1941.

Do you really think the Luftwaffe would have ordered such a plane if he had the charachteristics from the planes from PF??? I think not. I was really happy about the new flight model from v4.01 because the FW was restaured as a real fighter. Now, he is stalling all the time even at "high" speed (500km/h max at a regular level flight....ridiculous).

And another question. How could the aces of the Luftwaffe get so many victories in russia if the russian planes beat them on all points???

I think the developpers couldn't stand the fact that german planes where really better.

>I really like this game but sometimes I can't stand it.

sources :
http://www.luftfahrtmuseum.com/htmi/itf/m109g.htm
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/luftwaffe/fighter/fw190/fw190data.html
http://www.avions-de-legende.com/tablprof/alitaesp.htm
http://www.luftfahrtmuseum.com/htmi/itf/fw190d.htm
http://www.dday-overlord.com/focke_wulf_fw190.htm
biggles
and lots of more

PM : sorry for the mistakes in the post but as a french I'm not speaking so good english. I think the general information got through.

WOLFMondo
10-24-2005, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
Guys, we are mixing dueling with dogfighting again.

Starting same alt, for dueling 1v1, Fw190 is a pretty poor airplane. In a 16v16 dogfight, Fw190 will rule anything else.

Agreed there. A team of 190's is very dangerous. There one of the best planes to use in pairs too.

WOLFMondo
10-24-2005, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">then i climbed up with high speed (350+km/h)
I'm no Luftwaffe expert, but 350km/hr is not fast for a Fw190. You need to maintain much higher speed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think what he meant was the 190's optimal climb speed is 350kph which is much faster compared with other planes optimal climb speeds.

If you maintain 350kph TAS and use about 90% prop pitch you will climb exceptionally quickly. Climbing in the FW is all about getting the AoA and prop pitch right.

karost
10-24-2005, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by AlsaceLtMartell:

And another question. How could the aces of the Luftwaffe get so many victories in russia if the russian planes beat them on all points???



well , if they made game 100% close to the history ... I think no one will fly red http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Worse FW190 A4 in 4.02]
if base on previous patch , I do agree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

but we learn from a patch to patch , but we(none pilot) never fly a real plane , so I can not tell 190A4 from 4.01 or 4.02 which one correct , coz I'm just a joystick-pilot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

1vs1 109 and 190 and shooting like a DOOM game , sure 109 win http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif , but if both are same smart , 190 guy keep hi-speed with energy(clever) in combat ,190 guy just oneside offensive only.

btw, this good post to point out deep in energy-lose between 109 and 190

S!

Jumoschwanz
10-24-2005, 09:55 AM
I read an article written about the captured FW190 a-3 that the United States tested during WWII. It was written by one of the pilots who tested it pretty extensively and compared it's performance to U.S. fighters of the time.

It was able to outclimb them at high speed, but this was the planes only advantage. They said in a dogfight it would stall easily if it tried to maintain the turning radius of the allied planes, especially if it tried to follow and allied craft in a vertical loop.

They said it could use it's high speed climbing to break off a fight and get away for another pass, and if the 190 pilot succeeded in getting a clean pass on an allied fighter "it could be a problem" for the allied craft.

The 190 in this sim has always been an easy stalling aircraft at low speeds, and this seems to be historically accurate. Also historically, I know the early 190 A-1 to A-4 were faster and able to dominate a fight with a SpitV, and I think that is true in this sim.

I have noticed in this sim, since it's release, that many of the planes seem slow compared to published accounts.

Also in this sim, with very few exceptions, those successful in the 190 attacked with an advantage and used energy tactics. I don't think the plane was a tool for dogfighting in real life, and it never was in this sim.

I am all for the 190 having it's historical abilities as far as speed and rate of climb. But if it ever was able to dogfight at low speed with Spits and 109s in this sim I would THEN suspect the sim was moving away from reality instead of towards it.

At high speeds, I am sure the 190 was in it's element in real life. And it is in the sim too. Attack with an advantage or don't at all, a good rule for attack no matter what you are flying.
If you are getting shot down dogfighting low and slow with Spits, Mustangs, P-40s, yaks, etc. and other more nimble craft then you deserve to.

Jumoschwanz

AlsaceLtMartell
10-24-2005, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:

The 190 in this sim has always been an easy stalling aircraft at low speeds, and this seems to be historically accurate. Also historically, I know the early 190 A-1 to A-4 were faster and able to dominate a fight with a SpitV, and I think that is true in this sim.

I have noticed in this sim, since it's release, that many of the planes seem slow compared to published accounts.

Also in this sim, with very few exceptions, those successful in the 190 attacked with an advantage and used energy tactics. I don't think the plane was a tool for dogfighting in real life, and it never was in this sim.

I am all for the 190 having it's historical abilities as far as speed and rate of climb. But if it ever was able to dogfight at low speed with Spits and 109s in this sim I would THEN suspect the sim was moving away from reality instead of towards it.

Jumoschwanz

Hum, I'm sorry to disagree but according to french pilot Pierre Clostermann who was piloting a spitfire against FWs in France, the 190 were able to dogfight against them at low speed, and many of his comrades were killed in such fights. In the new patch, you are stalling at 400 km:h! that s really stupid.

Bremspropeller
10-24-2005, 11:39 AM
It always depends on the violonist, not on the violin http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


BTW: you can stall almost any plane at any speed, granted you pull hard enough.

Jumoschwanz
10-24-2005, 11:53 AM
So the only solution is to make every plane in the sim fly like an I-153 with the power of a P-47. Then all the turn and burn kiddies can swoop around chasing each others tails on wonder-woman servers and maybe then when they get shot down they will not be able to cry about the plane?

Maybe it is not the FM of the 190 but the realism settings are too hard for those who complain about it. Try flying on some servers with the easiest of settings and you will not be bothered by those pesky flight characteristics, turn stalling off!

The other option is to go the other way, fly dead-full real, and use historic tactics and methods where you will not attack at a disadvantage and you have a wing-man covering you. Then your success rate will be higher, and your whi ne rate will be lower.

Jumoschwanz

AlsaceLtMartell
10-25-2005, 05:59 AM
Just read the statistics and technical characteristics of those planes and of those who piloted them, and you'll must agree: german planes where better than russian ones. And if the violonist was supported by the soviet propaganda, I wouldn't use him as an example to defend your idea.

WOLFMondo
10-25-2005, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
Maybe it is not the FM of the 190 but the realism settings are too hard for those who complain about it. Try flying on some servers with the easiest of settings and you will not be bothered by those pesky flight characteristics, turn stalling off!


I think people have problems flying the 190 because no other plane really flies like it. All the emphasis on tactics is about being paired up with a wing man or more, using the roll rate and not sustained turn rate for manouvering, energy management, getting the right AoA during climbing, prop pitch managment which makes a huge difference to climbs, dives, top speed and cruising, flying at its best heights for maximum performance. While other planes do require knowledge to fly, an expert in a 190 is probably the most dangerous pilot/plane combination.

TooCooL34
10-25-2005, 07:00 AM
So every defeat you get is not your fault or lack of your skill, it's all because of new patch, huh?
Convenient, very convenient. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Quite funny, since all of my squadmates consider this patch is for 190, especially Dora.

mynameisroland
10-25-2005, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by CMHQ_Rikimaru:
Again im disappointed.... I was dogfighting today with my cousin, he was flying on BF 109 G2, and i was flying on FW 190 A4, ofcourse he outmanouvered me after some time, and i started diving, then i climbed up with high speed (350+km/h), and what I see? He was faster! When i had 330km/h he had 380km/h, he didnt had energy advantage because i dive better, nor i have been damaged. We repeated this situation few times, and all the times he climbed better on high speed. And im asking a question, how fw 190 A4 is now better in this game? FW have only better roll, dives a bit better, and he turns a lil better then BF 109 on high speed. So im making a question "what for would be FW 190 made if it would be worse in almost all parameters then BF 190?". And Oleg, dont say "you has wrong logic, be sure", but FW 190 should be pretty better AC than BF(better acceleration, much better roll on hgih speeds, and FW 190 was better vertical fighter than BF, its not my opinion, i have readed a lot of manuals, pilots experiences, etc...).

I think that the Fw 190 A4 is fine in this patch. I feel that it has kept decent E retention and its roll rate has improved thank goodness after 4.01's snail roll rate. If you meet your cousin co altitude make sure you are flying faster when you merge at least try for 500km/h. You could kill/damage him on 1st pass simply by using your superb roll rate at high speeds to feint roll away from his G2, as he rolls to match you and get a firing solution quickly roll back in to him changing the angle completely. He will still be trying to roll back on to your flight path while you are able to score hits on his AC with no risk of being hit or colliding.

If you dont hit him or slightly damage him continue to fly straight after the merge climbing at a shallow angel. If he chooses to turn and chase he will bleed more E and you can at this point zoom climb and hammerhead. If he goes in to a vertical climb after the initial merge then you should fly straight building up your speed then once you have extended to 2km nose down to reach 600km/h then turn back at your cousin. If he is diving to meet you go for another head on if he stays high then you level off retaining 500km/h airspeed and fly away. Sooner or later he will commit to a fight when he does remember that any shot oppertunity you get take it, you have ammo to burn and when fighting at speeds of 500Km/h you hold roll and turn rate advantage over him. Use it to force an over shoot then as he flies past you and climbs away close your radiators 110% throttle prop pitch 100% and climb after him. Drop flaps to combat if needed .. this is where you shoot him down ... lead him a little and open fire. Then raise flaps, Immelman, prop pitch auto and dive to gain speed again.

This all relies on good gunnery and knowing the stall characteristics of the Fw 190 but if you do that you should win or you should be untouchable. The Fw 190 flies for longer on 50% fuel than the 109 does so if push comes to shove fly him about the map then shoot him down as he is forced to rtb http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
10-25-2005, 08:07 AM
Your squadmates not been out of fuel in 2 mins like in 3.04 then?

Or are they back to having to avoid even getting touched by enemy fire otherwise they're out of the fight?

If the 190, even with two self sealing fuel tanks was susceptible to losing all it's fuel in 2 mins then fair enough. I suspect that it wasn't and I also suspect that there are other aircraft in this game less able to cope with such a hit to the fuel system that don't suffer to the same extent.

Ta,
Norris

mynameisroland
10-25-2005, 09:09 AM
Well it seems that Oleg has turned the screw on the Fw 190 a little this patch. Hell we couldnt have the best Radial engined medium to low altitude fighter being German could we ? Safe to say if the La5 is piloted by anyone with a brain it is still more dangerous than the Fw 190. Thanks to its amazing construction, pilot killing straight trajectory cannons and impregnable wooden construction not to mention zero energy bleed on manuvers.

Im just very thankfull that the Fw 190 still has the firepower it should do and that it now rolls again.

Ive been shot down only a few times in Fw 190 since patch reset and its always a fire ! ? Is Fw 190 the new Zero? Icefire witnessed an incident 1st hand lastnite when I popped a single Hispanno round up his 6 and he burst in to flames immediately. Im really happy that Oleg has implemented a weakened DM for Fw 190 but why not do likewise for the Yak's, the La5 series and the Lagg3 are these aircraft playing to the same rules?

HayateAce
10-25-2005, 09:13 AM
For the same reasons Oleg has completely mis-modeled 90% of the US aircraft in this game. You blues cry about the Russian crafts being so uber and so much better, yet seem to think it's just fine and dandy that US aircraft are nothing more than targets after 4.01.

Quit crying and get ready for a LaGG up your back door....

NorrisMcWhirter
10-25-2005, 10:04 AM
Targets? US aircraft are 'new best'

In fact, they're so good that I've taken to flying them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

High performance, excellent firepower, sturdy in DM/in dives and good visibility - in short, everything a 190 should be but isn't allowed to be in Oleg's world.

That P38L-Late is a beast; I bagged 8 planes in a co-op with it and still landed with ammo. In fact, one of the other co-op players remarked that I'd 'got them all'

Nah, why bother flying around for ages struggling to see things only to be struck by one hit from Oleg's lasers and have a fire/pk/uncontrollable plane when you can simply fly 'new best'

And, I'm not being sarcastic this time.

Ta,
Norris

mynameisroland
10-25-2005, 10:46 AM
I agree, you can fly the P38 and take out 30 % of ground targets in one pass while traveling over 500km/h fully laden. If you are in F8 allied tanks - even the Sherman - take direct bomb hits to knock out. With no Panzerschrek or blitz or even the option to carry 250kg on outer pylons and 250kg centre line, Or even 1000kg option for the Fw 190. Taking off would put hairs on your chest but it would offer a little bit of balance to the one sided ground attack situation Blue fliers face.

P47 ground attack loadout anyone?

WOLFMondo
10-25-2005, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
For the same reasons Oleg has completely mis-modeled 90% of the US aircraft in this game. You blues cry about the Russian crafts being so uber and so much better, yet seem to think it's just fine and dandy that US aircraft are nothing more than targets after 4.01.

Quit crying and get ready for a LaGG up your back door....

Your funny. Some of the US A/C are the best.

AlsaceLtMartell
10-26-2005, 03:55 PM
SAme reply... Just fly a Spit and no german AC will match you if he s not helped by two wingmen.

Other detail I noticed in this game. Did you see how ONE little russian plane is making the hell when he is over the blue base? Ten Me109 on his tail but impossible to shoot down??

FritzGryphon
10-26-2005, 05:50 PM
If you are in F8 allied tanks - even the Sherman - take direct bomb hits to knock out.

Not technically true. Almost all tanks, Sherman especially, can be destroyed by cannons if you shoot the top.

For example, even KV1 can be killed by Hispano. But, from close ranges and steep angles that are difficult to achieve.

mynameisroland
10-27-2005, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you are in F8 allied tanks - even the Sherman - take direct bomb hits to knock out.

Not technically true. Almost all tanks, Sherman especially, can be destroyed by cannons if you shoot the top.

For example, even KV1 can be killed by Hispano. But, from close ranges and steep angles that are difficult to achieve. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im glad you agree it is technically difficult to achieve. I didnt say it was impossible to knock out a Sherman I suggested it required a direct hit. It would be easier to just bomb and refly to kill tanks than vertically dive bomb them to get some 20mm through the roof armour. As a Red pilot all I would do is fire some rockets, guaranteed you will get more kills in any Red rocket equipped fighter bomber than a 109 or Fw 190 ground attack fighter.

OldMan____
10-27-2005, 03:53 AM
FW roll rate was not correctd in 4.02, it is still far lower thanit should at high speeds and too high at lower speed while some other planes now roll faster than it in speeds it should be otherwise (like P51).



FW is having a not bad time online because Spit and its fellows snap stall now and the only players used to snap stall frequently were the FW ones. So when we pursue a atrget we can see clearly " he is oing it.. he will spin, in.. 3.. 2 ..1.. ok here it is"

mynameisroland
10-27-2005, 04:57 AM
good point OldMan I have looked at the charts over at Sim HQ. It is pleasing to see that Fw 190 is out in front again in terms of roll rate but very frustrating to see that it peaks far too soon and loses one of its main advantages over other fighters. What is the point in rolling 170 deg a sec at 150 mph when your real practical roll rate advantage should actually be at 300/350/400 mph.

It is another way of castrating an aircraft that seems to be misunderstood or at the very least wrongly interpreted by 1C. The Fw 190 was a FAST aircraft that manuvered well at high speeds. By making it roll to quickly at slow speeds as slower at fast speeds it immediately forces the Fw 190 to fly in a manner which is not historical for the type and puts it right in the optimal fighting speeds of some of its main enemies ie the La5 and the Spitfire.

edit- After being initially impressed with the patch it is disapointing that the roll rate stiffens at actual combat speeds too quickly and also that the Mustangs wing weakness seems to have been applied to the Fw 190 too. Correct me if I am wrong but how many Fw 190's were ever reported as having lost a wing in a dive? Their wing was immensely strong - have any of you guys seen photographs of its construction?

NorrisMcWhirter
10-27-2005, 05:37 AM
I predicted the use of the snap-stall-escape thing when I saw that i16 stall recovery for the first time.

Now it's being used in the field.

Crimson Skies it is then.

Ta,
Norris

WOLFMondo
10-27-2005, 05:37 AM
You could always induce a wing loss in a dive with a 190. Granted it was harder than the Mustang D but you could do it. I thought the Mustang D lost a wing because it was weakened because of the extra gun placement in each wing which could lead to wing loss in a very high G manouver?

NorrisMcWhirter
10-27-2005, 05:49 AM
I was under the impression that the P51 suffered a wing failure due to the opening of an inspection door or similar at high speed?

You're right, Wolf - the 190 did lose wings at very high speeds and it did take more effort to cause it than in the P51. So, maybe the 190 elevator is overmodelled but just to a lesser extent? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

mynameisroland
10-27-2005, 05:56 AM
While there is limited evidence to suggest that the Mustang did actually shed wings in combat during high speed dives is there any evidence to suggest Fw 190 did?

I have always used default stick settings throughout all the patches and I have lost wings before in Mustang and Fw 190 however it seems that it is now easier to do so in the Fw 190 than in prior patches. I have lost one at 600km/h in 4.02 the Fw 190 wing was absoultely solid. I have a good book Fw190 Design and Production its an Osprey series and it has brilliant photographs of the assembly line one of which explicity shows the construction of the wing.

I dont think the Fw 190 is porked , I still fly and kill in it, I just think Oleg has had his ears stung so much from whiners in 4.01 he has levelled the playing field a litte.

WOLFMondo
10-27-2005, 05:58 AM
I agree there. To much whining has always changed things round here. The 190 is still a killing machine.

I think that door is the gun bay door mixed with changes to the internal workings of the wing because of the extra gun.

I'm sure some Mustang expert will either confirm or put us right.

AlsaceLtMartell
10-27-2005, 07:00 AM
I judt say about the wing of the 190 : how could a plane that is designed to fly 656 km/h loose a wing at 600?

jurinko
10-27-2005, 08:03 AM
The British report says, Fw 190 A-4 and early Spitfire MK IX are so equal planes, that in 1vs1 fight the better pilot should win.

Who can replicate the same in Fw, starting at the same speed and altitude head on? Fw can fire once and then only run, won´t outclimb, won´t outturn, won´t outrun.

p1ngu666
10-27-2005, 08:48 AM
irl the mustang losing its wing(s) was due to something being pulled out by suction (think it was the wheel cover, not sure) thus causing strange airflow which made mega loads somewhere, and snap...

ingame, its from where the oversensative elivator makes u pull more than 15g suddenly.

its probably impossible to graduly pull too much G graduly, maybe with redicuous trim. its just from a spiking of G.

its like walking across the street and being hit by a bus doing 60mph. *bang*

Max.Power
10-27-2005, 09:36 AM
I actually find the FW's wings very difficult to shed. However (and let this not paint your perception of my quality of a pilot or an observer), I fly on dogfight servers where I don't have to pull hard into a turn to see my target in a diving pursuit. A good rule of thumb on this one is not to pull hard on the stick at over 700 IAS. I think that it is the aircraft's extremely high control authority that is responsible for most of your high-speed stalling and wing shedding. In most planes, I think, you can rely on the aircraft's own limitations on high speed control throughput to govern your maneovers. This is not true in the FW or the P-51, and the result is high AOA at high speed = extreme structural stress and failure... but, quite obviously, the P-51's wing is much weaker in this sim.

Looking at the latest version of IL-2 Compare (and I realise the reliability of this measure is contestable), it looks like the Bf 109 G2 turns inside the Fw 190 a4 at all speeds, whether the 190 has deployed combat flaps or not. The 109 out turns the 190 without flaps at all speeds, even at the tightest turning radius for the 190 with the combat flaps down. It looks like the G2 outclimbs the a4 at all speeds under 550 IAS, according to this chart, and the a4 has a slight airspeed advantage under 2000m. At all other altitudes it is clearly outclassed, except its peak altitude (6,000m), where it ties it back up again, and then quickly falls off. What does this tell us? Well, in terms of scientific appraisal, nearly nothing. Holistically, it tells us that a4 was a bad year for the Fw 190 vs. the Bf 109 (according to a previous version of the flight model in this simulation).

As for taking this in evidence to claim that the 'Focke Wulf' as a project would have failed if this was true, and then to say that this means that the sim is innacurate is a bit of a stretch. Even questions of whether the Spitfire or the Focke Wulf was better as a tactical fighter demands the question, "What model in what year?" at the very least. Honestly, I'm not sure what year the a4 and the G2 were in service, respectively, and I am sort of assuming that their service overlapped. I guess the short answer is that the a4 is not much of a match for the G2. According, again, to IL-2 Compare, the G2 is kind of a monster, and a better match up might be the G6. You can expect (if this is accurate), that the performance would be closer at all altitudes, and you can exploit the high speed turn of the a4 with much greater effect, as it appears the a4 out-turns the g6 at high speeds (over 350 IAS).

So, if IL-2c is worth anything at all, try using different models. You appear to have been fighting a terrible Fw versus a monster of a Bf.

OldMan___
10-27-2005, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by jurinko:
The British report says, Fw 190 A-4 and early Spitfire MK IX are so equal planes, that in 1vs1 fight the better pilot should win.

Who can replicate the same in Fw, starting at the same speed and altitude head on? Fw can fire once and then only run, won´t outclimb, won´t outturn, won´t outrun.

I already defeated several MK IX this way in a A4. But usually is in an environment with several more aircraft around (where teh FW fear less than the Spit) or against pilots that were not so versed on its fighter. Now that Spit cant simply pull stick full strenght without problems the FW are having an easier time against it.

p1ngu666
10-27-2005, 09:56 AM
max power, the 190 was always considered the better, more dangerous plane. the g2 has been "uber" for along time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Max.Power
10-27-2005, 09:59 AM
I was talking strictly in terms of the game, as arguing the real life performance as advice on how to play the game is highly dubious.

edit:

Who can replicate the same in Fw, starting at the same speed and altitude head on? Fw can fire once and then only run, won´t outclimb, won´t outturn, won´t outrun.

I think there's a very, very important difference between war pilots and us simmers in that we log thousands of hours and die thousands of deaths learning how to fly our aircraft. I think that this may account for a lot of the discrepencies of pilot + aircraft combat performance in IL-2. We have a lot of experience in the virtual aircraft, we actively seek out engagements and we fly the same scenarios over and over and over again, with very little support in terms of organizational structure or tactics. I think that the differences in aircraft performance really sticks out in our experience, at least on DF servers, because everything else sort of melds into the countless hours of doing essentially the same thing in the same place. I don't think that, for most wartime pilots, their aircraft were such fluid extensions of their bodies and minds.

mynameisroland
10-27-2005, 10:33 AM
Some good posts guys.

I have been playing since IL2 and have not changed my stick setting sonce yet for the 1st time I am considering doing so after 4.02. Again , I have already stated I have lost wings on Fw 190 in prior patches it is the increasing frequency of the trend in this new patch and the lower speeds at which the wings come off that is worrying me.

The Me 109 G2 was never able to out turn the Fw 190 at airspeeds of 450km/h or greater. The fact that it can is dubious in the extreme and smacks of this sim relying too heavily on Russian data and Russian WW2 pilots opinions. The USSR treated the 109 like a god, they commented it was superior to every other plane in the world in 1942. after they tested the Fw 190 A4 they stated it was not a suitable dogfighter as it was too heavy , it couldnt turn and it couldnt climb. It was only good for head on attacks and running away.

This seems to be the Fw 190 we have in game. The only attributes it posseses are good firepower and good elevator authority at speeds and pilots that use those features to the fullest. Had the sim used pilot opinions and RAF test data from the Fw 190 I think we would see and entirely different Fw 190 one that is unrecognisable to the current offering.

JtD
10-27-2005, 10:41 AM
The Focke in Aces over Europe had a cimbrate of 850 m/min and could barely climb beyond 6000 meters.

Jumoschwanz
10-27-2005, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:


The USSR treated the 109 like a god, they commented it was superior to every other plane in the world in 1942. after they tested the Fw 190 A4 they stated it was not a suitable dogfighter as it was too heavy , it couldnt turn and it couldnt climb. It was only good for head on attacks and running away..

The U.S. tested a 190 A3 during WWII and said the same things the russians did. It was mostly suitable as an interceptor, and if it could not set up and make a passing shot at a foe and get away at high speed, it sure was not going to outurn any allied fighter and get on it's tail. They said all someone had to do to evade the 190 was do a tight loop, and if it tried to follow it would stall out.

That is exactly the 190 we have in this sim, and it has always been an easy staller compared to most of it's contemporaries. I don't mind the 190 the way it is, it is for different missions and tactics than the 109.

I don't think Oleg can make the plane fit every contradicting pilot report and opinion about it, and I don't think he will try. I am sure he will continue to throw tiny tweaks in here and there as they come to his attention, as he does with all aspects of this sim, and I am grateful for anything we get, now that this sim certainly has a back seat to newer projects. I would not look for any revolutionary changes in any part of it.

Jumoschwanz

HunglikePony
10-27-2005, 06:32 PM
Why now FW not able to extend away from P-47 and SPitfire? They now catch FW but top speed of real plane say other?
FW now not good, patch ruined plane has. Need to fix now....and include new planes too please! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

geetarman
10-27-2005, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
Maybe it is not the FM of the 190 but the realism settings are too hard for those who complain about it. Try flying on some servers with the easiest of settings and you will not be bothered by those pesky flight characteristics, turn stalling off!


I think people have problems flying the 190 because no other plane really flies like it. All the emphasis on tactics is about being paired up with a wing man or more, using the roll rate and not sustained turn rate for manouvering, energy management, getting the right AoA during climbing, prop pitch managment which makes a huge difference to climbs, dives, top speed and cruising, flying at its best heights for maximum performance. While other planes do require knowledge to fly, an expert in a 190 is probably the most dangerous pilot/plane combination. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The most dangerous pilot in this sim is a pure, unadulterated marksman flying a
Mustang III

geetarman
10-27-2005, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
While there is limited evidence to suggest that the Mustang did actually shed wings in combat during high speed dives is there any evidence to suggest Fw 190 did?

I have always used default stick settings throughout all the patches and I have lost wings before in Mustang and Fw 190 however it seems that it is now easier to do so in the Fw 190 than in prior patches. I have lost one at 600km/h in 4.02 the Fw 190 wing was absoultely solid. I have a good book Fw190 Design and Production its an Osprey series and it has brilliant photographs of the assembly line one of which explicity shows the construction of the wing.

I dont think the Fw 190 is porked , I still fly and kill in it, I just think Oleg has had his ears stung so much from whiners in 4.01 he has levelled the playing field a litte.

Your opinion and you're entitled to it. Remember though, the charts that show the 190
rolling too slow at high speed, also show it rolling way too fast at low speed. So it cuts both ways

WOLFMondo
10-28-2005, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by geetarman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
Maybe it is not the FM of the 190 but the realism settings are too hard for those who complain about it. Try flying on some servers with the easiest of settings and you will not be bothered by those pesky flight characteristics, turn stalling off!


I think people have problems flying the 190 because no other plane really flies like it. All the emphasis on tactics is about being paired up with a wing man or more, using the roll rate and not sustained turn rate for manouvering, energy management, getting the right AoA during climbing, prop pitch managment which makes a huge difference to climbs, dives, top speed and cruising, flying at its best heights for maximum performance. While other planes do require knowledge to fly, an expert in a 190 is probably the most dangerous pilot/plane combination. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The most dangerous pilot in this sim is a pure, unadulterated marksman flying a
Mustang III </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do and don't agree for several reasons. The Mustang has the peformance but so does the Dora 9 which also has much bigger guns. The A6 and A9 also have great performance but unmatched fire power. You have to be a sharp shooter to kill a 190 in one pass in a Mustang MKIII, but in a 190, you have 2 or 4 cannons so 1 pass kills are almost assured. The 190's will also out turn a mustang MkIII at any speed. Not the best way to defend but it does work.

NorrisMcWhirter
10-28-2005, 03:49 AM
Originally posted by geetarman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
While there is limited evidence to suggest that the Mustang did actually shed wings in combat during high speed dives is there any evidence to suggest Fw 190 did?

I have always used default stick settings throughout all the patches and I have lost wings before in Mustang and Fw 190 however it seems that it is now easier to do so in the Fw 190 than in prior patches. I have lost one at 600km/h in 4.02 the Fw 190 wing was absoultely solid. I have a good book Fw190 Design and Production its an Osprey series and it has brilliant photographs of the assembly line one of which explicity shows the construction of the wing.

I dont think the Fw 190 is porked , I still fly and kill in it, I just think Oleg has had his ears stung so much from whiners in 4.01 he has levelled the playing field a litte.

Your opinion and you're entitled to it. Remember though, the charts that show the 190
rolling too slow at high speed, also show it rolling way too fast at low speed. So it cuts both ways </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it doesn't because no one really flies a 190 in the area of the graph where it rolls too quickly and so your vanilla 190 pilot, who always keeps their plane fast has to suffer a substandard roll performance for their normal operating range of speed.

However, this "faster roll at lower speeds" does actually benefit some aircraft...such as those slow planes evading a high speed bnz'r. Couple that with the fact that a lot of punters are now simply able to yank the stick back into insta-stall/spin-recover-assisted bnz avoidance
and who says this game doesn't benefit the tnb crowd? They'll be laughing all the way back to the airfield as they ponder over those inadequate, low-skill level bnz boys and their "real life tactics that are clearly not required in this 'realistic' game" approach http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The only postive is that most planes roll below performance (some of them more than others) at higher speeds. Only then can things be considered moot.

Ta,
Norris

OldMan____
10-28-2005, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by geetarman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
Maybe it is not the FM of the 190 but the realism settings are too hard for those who complain about it. Try flying on some servers with the easiest of settings and you will not be bothered by those pesky flight characteristics, turn stalling off!


I think people have problems flying the 190 because no other plane really flies like it. All the emphasis on tactics is about being paired up with a wing man or more, using the roll rate and not sustained turn rate for manouvering, energy management, getting the right AoA during climbing, prop pitch managment which makes a huge difference to climbs, dives, top speed and cruising, flying at its best heights for maximum performance. While other planes do require knowledge to fly, an expert in a 190 is probably the most dangerous pilot/plane combination. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The most dangerous pilot in this sim is a pure, unadulterated marksman flying a
Mustang III </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do and don't agree for several reasons. The Mustang has the peformance but so does the Dora 9 which also has much bigger guns. The A6 and A9 also have great performance but unmatched fire power. You have to be a sharp shooter to kill a 190 in one pass in a Mustang MKIII, but in a 190, you have 2 or 4 cannons so 1 pass kills are almost assured. The 190's will also out turn a mustang MkIII at any speed. Not the best way to defend but it does work. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you mean.. a Very carefull 190 driver may induce a P51 trying to evade or follow him to spin in a tight tun..... If no one gets deseperate.. both planes turn almost exactly the same.

karost
10-28-2005, 05:39 AM
JG26 was named as "TOPGUN" of WWII with FW-190s picture. lets point in three factors

1.pilots
2.team tactic
3.airplane performance

for myself [IMHO] factors (1)and(2) may not to difference if we compare in game (DF-Server) coz alot of friends here play this game alot (or too much) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif then our skills may not have a big differnece for red and blue

now point at factor(3) "airplane performance" for FW-190 in game and what we read in JG26 TOPGUN we may see some point interesting then lets share your idea here.

for example, try vector roll in FW-190 in game then review track file compare to what we read in history..!

just wonder why JG26 was called at "TOPGUN" ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

WOLFMondo
10-28-2005, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by geetarman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
Maybe it is not the FM of the 190 but the realism settings are too hard for those who complain about it. Try flying on some servers with the easiest of settings and you will not be bothered by those pesky flight characteristics, turn stalling off!


I think people have problems flying the 190 because no other plane really flies like it. All the emphasis on tactics is about being paired up with a wing man or more, using the roll rate and not sustained turn rate for manouvering, energy management, getting the right AoA during climbing, prop pitch managment which makes a huge difference to climbs, dives, top speed and cruising, flying at its best heights for maximum performance. While other planes do require knowledge to fly, an expert in a 190 is probably the most dangerous pilot/plane combination. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The most dangerous pilot in this sim is a pure, unadulterated marksman flying a
Mustang III </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do and don't agree for several reasons. The Mustang has the peformance but so does the Dora 9 which also has much bigger guns. The A6 and A9 also have great performance but unmatched fire power. You have to be a sharp shooter to kill a 190 in one pass in a Mustang MKIII, but in a 190, you have 2 or 4 cannons so 1 pass kills are almost assured. The 190's will also out turn a mustang MkIII at any speed. Not the best way to defend but it does work. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you mean.. a Very carefull 190 driver may induce a P51 trying to evade or follow him to spin in a tight tun..... If no one gets deseperate.. both planes turn almost exactly the same. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Will have to agree to disagree. I find (from being the persued and the persuer at different times) the 190 is a better instantaneous and sustains turner, especially the A6 and D9

mynameisroland
10-30-2005, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by geetarman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
While there is limited evidence to suggest that the Mustang did actually shed wings in combat during high speed dives is there any evidence to suggest Fw 190 did?

I have always used default stick settings throughout all the patches and I have lost wings before in Mustang and Fw 190 however it seems that it is now easier to do so in the Fw 190 than in prior patches. I have lost one at 600km/h in 4.02 the Fw 190 wing was absoultely solid. I have a good book Fw190 Design and Production its an Osprey series and it has brilliant photographs of the assembly line one of which explicity shows the construction of the wing.

I dont think the Fw 190 is porked , I still fly and kill in it, I just think Oleg has had his ears stung so much from whiners in 4.01 he has levelled the playing field a litte.

Your opinion and you're entitled to it. Remember though, the charts that show the 190
rolling too slow at high speed, also show it rolling way too fast at low speed. So it cuts both ways </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesnt cut both ways. The Fw190 rolling to fast at slow speeds hinders the aircraft as it shouldnt be flown at slow speeds in the first place. It has no performance advantage at slow speeds unlike at high speeds where it climbs, turns and manuvers better than most. When flown at 400mph thats when the roll rate is a weapon as it can pull through 180deg before a Spitfire can reach 60deg.

mynameisroland
10-30-2005, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:


The USSR treated the 109 like a god, they commented it was superior to every other plane in the world in 1942. after they tested the Fw 190 A4 they stated it was not a suitable dogfighter as it was too heavy , it couldnt turn and it couldnt climb. It was only good for head on attacks and running away..

The U.S. tested a 190 A3 during WWII and said the same things the russians did. It was mostly suitable as an interceptor, and if it could not set up and make a passing shot at a foe and get away at high speed, it sure was not going to outurn any allied fighter and get on it's tail. They said all someone had to do to evade the 190 was do a tight loop, and if it tried to follow it would stall out.

That is exactly the 190 we have in this sim, and it has always been an easy staller compared to most of it's contemporaries. I don't mind the 190 the way it is, it is for different missions and tactics than the 109.

I don't think Oleg can make the plane fit every contradicting pilot report and opinion about it, and I don't think he will try. I am sure he will continue to throw tiny tweaks in here and there as they come to his attention, as he does with all aspects of this sim, and I am grateful for anything we get, now that this sim certainly has a back seat to newer projects. I would not look for any revolutionary changes in any part of it.

Jumoschwanz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure that the US tested an A3? When did they capture that? A3 was mostly phased out of service before the USA even set foot in Britain. Was it not infact an A5 fighter/bomber that they patched up (without the BMW 801's boost) and ballasted to make do as an A5 fighter? Hardly a good comparison to an actual Fw 190 A5 fighter. Its impressive however that the unbossted botched job A5 that the US tested still managed to outrun and outclimb the Corsair and Hellcat.

The RAF tested the Fw 190 A3 and Im sure you have read those reports. The Fw was superior to the Spitfire VB/IX in every aspect of manuverability except sustained turn performance. That was the official conclusion of the test report. Did the Hellcat/Corsair/Thunderbolt possess superior manuverability to the Spitfire too? Must have missed that report.