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View Full Version : Inside the Mind of a Lunatic: An ironic quote from Dr. Goebbels



ANGELOFMONS1
11-16-2005, 09:39 AM
One of the books I'm reading right now is The Goebbels Diaries 1939-41 and I came across the following passage (12 February 1940) which made me go all wide-eyed and chuckle uncomfortably:

"Frau _ visits me this afternoon. We see the American Disney film, Snow White, a magnificent artistic achievement. A fairy tale for grown-ups thought out into the last detail and made with a great love of humanity and nature. An artistic delight!"

Just the thought of the Nazi hierarchy sitting around watching Disney films and then keeping in mind the horror and madness they inflicted upon the world (not to mention what he ultimately did to his own children) adds a touch of the surreal to it all. For anyone who has not read these books, I definitely recommend attempting to find copies. Goebbels was quite a diarist and provides a lot of first person perspective into the upper echelons of the Third Reich.

Daiichidoku
11-16-2005, 10:25 AM
my mom's mom's second husband was in a group of ppl that once carried goebbels on thier shoulders

4 degrees of separation

MLudner
11-16-2005, 10:27 AM
Evil never thinks of itself as evil. Evil never walks up to you and says:

"Hey, Man, I'm evil! Let's go butcher some people!"

Evil cloaks itself as compassion. The Nazis thought they were going to save the world. There's a story out there right now called "Nevermore" that is all about this.

chaikanut
11-16-2005, 11:35 AM
I have read some parts of Goebbels diary in various books about the Nazis. I believe the man was lying even to his most private thoughts to himself. In his mind he always tried to maintain this image of benevolence, greater purpose and obedience to the whims of his master.

Daiichidoku
11-16-2005, 11:44 AM
goebbels was only one of several men that COULD have led the national socialists, AH had quite a struggle to come out on top of his own party, before he could start anything else

ploughman
11-16-2005, 01:06 PM
Well Adolf loved westerns, or was it Stalin? Just think, one of the most sociopathic monsters ever to walk this world thought the Duke was the schnizel. How's about that, pilgrim?

Thing is, if you're a crazed dictator bent on world domination and the utter annihalation of all your enemies, it all makes sense to you. It's other people who can't get with the program.

jds1978
11-16-2005, 01:35 PM
keep in mind: no matter how sick, these were people

i suppose it's a psychological defense mechanism to try to make them out as complete aliens

the fact that Goebbels/Hitler/Stalin had regular and even mundane experiences and emotions makes their existance even scarier.

way worse than any Hollywood slasher or invader from Mars could ever be. this is the stuff of genuine nightmares

joeap
11-16-2005, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by ANGELOFMONS1:
One of the books I'm reading right now is The Goebbels Diaries 1939-41 and I came across the following passage (12 February 1940) which made me go all wide-eyed and chuckle uncomfortably:

"Frau _ visits me this afternoon. We see the American Disney film, Snow White, a magnificent artistic achievement. A fairy tale for grown-ups thought out into the last detail and made with a great love of humanity and nature. An artistic delight!"

Just the thought of the Nazi hierarchy sitting around watching Disney films and then keeping in mind the horror and madness they inflicted upon the world (not to mention what he ultimately did to his own children) adds a touch of the surreal to it all. For anyone who has not read these books, I definitely recommend attempting to find copies. Goebbels was quite a diarist and provides a lot of first person perspective into the upper echelons of the Third Reich.

Wow sounds like something I'll have to get, btw love the postcard , WWI right? German for sure, plus Turk, Austrian? and an Asian? (Can't be Japanese in WWI they were with the Allies).

Ruy Horta
11-16-2005, 02:03 PM
The order is:

Bulgarian, Ottoman, German and Austro-Hungarian.

Although we tend to focus on the Western and Middle-Eastern Fronts, which dominates western culture, there was quite a big show going on the Eastern Fronts.

Pretty difficult strategic situation in the Balkan.

Russia, Rumania, Serbia and eventually Greece and France against Germany, Austro-Hungary and Bulgaria with some Ottomans. Yet Bulgarians were traditional friends of Russia and enemies of Turkey, etc etc etc

To those who can read German I highly recommend Hindenburg's Aus Meinem Leben.

Although I share the same moral values as most of us do, I think that we are actually trying to force ourselves into believing that the rules of our society are universal and based on some law of nature. We do so, because we fear the truth, that we are basically amoral by our human nature and only moral by education.

It would not be difficult to raise a child (of good moral stock) to be a raving blood thirsty killer by applying scientific methods. Replace the rules and the game has changed.

Ruy Horta
11-16-2005, 02:15 PM
We like to set apart these men as non-humans so we can rest assured that we are not anything like them. Anything which reminds us of their humanity makes us feel uncomfortable for it confronts us with the beast that is man.

To call these men sociopaths is simply sticking your head in the sand, truth is these were cunning dictators who literally walked over bodies to assure their position.

It can happen again.

It is very likely that it will happen again within the next couple of hundred years...

arcadeace
11-16-2005, 02:23 PM
This reminds me of Reinhardt Heydrich. When he played the violin it was like watching an alter boy. As a loving father and family man many could learn from his example. Yet with respect to Jews, he was evil incarnate.

chaikanut
11-16-2005, 03:37 PM
There are however some things universally perceived and felt as evil by any person. Living and thinking of a world of lies when you know you are wrong is uncomfortable for everyone. Gooebels and co just chose to live in it and HAD to continue it to further their own control over others and to ''show'' themselves off. All the rest about purpose and salvation of Germany is rubbish. In my opinion this sort of people is miserable, afraid and pathetic.
And I dont think that Goebbels was fundamentally different (or more evil) from a common person, apart from the facts he was intelligent, an excellent speaker, manipulative and he knew the right people. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Oilburner_TAW
11-16-2005, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
We like to set apart these men as non-humans so we can rest assured that we are not anything like them. Anything which reminds us of their humanity makes us feel uncomfortable for it confronts us with the beast that is man.

To call these men sociopaths is simply sticking your head in the sand, truth is these were cunning dictators who literally walked over bodies to assure their position.

It can happen again.

It is very likely that it will happen again within the next couple of hundred years...

Hit the nail on the head. When I see Hitler playing with his dog's, I can relate 100%.


Also, I don't think we'll have to wait another 100 years..unfortunately. Most people have already forgotten those things which should never be forgotten.

LEXX_Luthor
11-16-2005, 06:30 PM
Taw::
[Rhorta] Hit the nail on the head. When I see Hitler playing with his dog's, I can relate 100%.
It's been said that colour videos of Hitler make us "civilized" people uncomfortable, so we prefer to keep him in black and white, where he belongs, safely in the past, an ocean away from us.

I like to think I can bragg about being superior to Goebble's preversions, but not very much. All the western "democracies" had sterilization laws and enforced them ruthlessly well before Hitler rose to power. State sponsored Sterilization is to prevent children unwanted by the State. Disney never explored this in his childrens' films, I don't think.

Badsight.
11-16-2005, 08:38 PM
what did goebbels do to his kids ?

PBNA-Boosher
11-16-2005, 08:50 PM
Walt Disney was a worldwide guy. A number of Axis pilots had Mickey Mouse painted on their planes.

LEXX_Luthor
11-16-2005, 09:17 PM
Popey was another popular cartoon airplane figure, and found on at least one Republican I-16 in Spanish Civil WAR. Was that Frank Tinker? Forgot.

Pirschjaeger
11-16-2005, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
what did goebbels do to his kids ?

This is a very good point Badsight. The truth is, Geobbels and his wife were very loving parents. Their children were well raised and well looked after. But in the end, the parents killed them.

I know many will get angry and a few might flame me for saying they were good parents. But this is the true, they were good, until they murdered them. I have often thought about this and I know it makes us mentally more comfortable to imagine them abusing their children but they didn't, until the end. I guess it's a mental defense as someone previously mentioned.

Personally, I can not understand or imagine, under any circumstances, how I could or would kill my children. This fact is where I feel comfortable.

Not to excuse them but I have to accept that Goebbels and his wife thought they were doing what was best. They had a choice to make and they made it based on their idiotic beliefs. But their intention was surely not to be evil to their children. But to us, the act was pure evil.

Fritz

Recon_609IAP
11-16-2005, 09:58 PM
We like to set apart these men as non-humans so we can rest assured that we are not anything like them. Anything which reminds us of their humanity makes us feel uncomfortable for it confronts us with the beast that is man.

To call these men sociopaths is simply sticking your head in the sand, truth is these were cunning dictators who literally walked over bodies to assure their position.

It can happen again.

It is very likely that it will happen again within the next couple of hundred years...


Yep - it will happen because it will be too "politically incorrect' to make a stand against them. Sounds kinda like a situation in the wold going on right now...

ANGELOFMONS1
11-16-2005, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
what did goebbels do to his kids ?

This is a very good point Badsight. The truth is, Geobbels and his wife were very loving parents. Their children were well raised and well looked after. But in the end, the parents killed them.

I know many will get angry and a few might flame me for saying they were good parents. But this is the true, they were good, until they murdered them. I have often thought about this and I know it makes us mentally more comfortable to imagine them abusing their children but they didn't, until the end. I guess it's a mental defense as someone previously mentioned.

Personally, I can not understand or imagine, under any circumstances, how I could or would kill my children. This fact is where I feel comfortable.

Not to excuse them but I have to accept that Goebbels and his wife thought they were doing what was best. They had a choice to make and they made it based on their idiotic beliefs. But their intention was surely not to be evil to their children. But to us, the act was pure evil.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No reason to flame here. The fact that they were good parents (despite Joseph's infidelity) is clearly spelled out in the diaries. He goes on and on about what a joy his children are and how he looks forward to seeing and spending time with them. However, I believe he was a sociopath and a madman (also spelled out in his writings) abeit a brilliant one.

As far as poisoning their children, I suppose it was more merciful to do that than what per se the Soviets would've done had they captured them. Either way, it was his complicity with and blind devotion to an anti-Christ that sealed their fates. The fault was entirely his and from what I've read, I have no reason to believe he had regrets about that.

Tallyho1961
11-17-2005, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
what did goebbels do to his kids ?

Rent the film 'Downfall' released earlier this year.

I can watch pretty much anything on the screen, but I had real difficulty getting through the scene when Magda Goebbels poisons her children.

It is a heavy, heavy, thing to see and perfectly illustrates the utter lunacy of the Nazi movement and the incredible hold Hitler had on his followers.

I get upset just thinking about it.

WholeHawg
11-17-2005, 08:02 AM
I read somewhere lately that Hitler had a picture of Walt Disney in his office and Walt had a picture of Hitler in his.

Probably just Proaganda.

Tallyho1961
11-17-2005, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by WholeHawg:
I read somewhere lately that Hitler had a picture of Walt Disney in his office and Walt had a picture of Hitler in his.

Probably just Proaganda.

Yes, but who's?

Bearcat99
11-17-2005, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
It can happen again.
It is very likely that it will happen again within the next couple of hundred years...

My you sure are optomistic.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
I think it will be sooner than that if history is any indication. Wait until the worlds economy tanks and times get hard and people get desperate. Hard times are fertile ground for megalomaniacal ideologues. Thats why when I hear people try to associate the current U.S. administration with the likes of Hitler and Stalin I just laugh. Our Hitler and Stalin is still somewhere waiting in the wings..... he certainly isnt in power yet. Who knows where the worlds next "leader" will come from anyway... There are so many theories.... Europe, the Middle East, China.... Russia... but we will surely see... and soon I think. By soon I mean within the next 15 years. Tops.


Originally posted by WholeHawg:
I read somewhere lately that Hitler had a picture of Walt Disney in his office and Walt had a picture of Hitler in his.
Probably just Proaganda.

Nope.. not propaganda.. in fact Walt Disney was virulently racist and a anti semeitic in his politics.... he and Hitler were indeed fans of each other.

joeap
11-17-2005, 08:37 AM
Odd, yet didn't prevent Disney from making propaganda films for the US during the war...like "Donald Duck in Nutsi land" featuring the song "In der Fueher's face" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

ANGELOFMONS1
11-17-2005, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by joeap:
Odd, yet didn't prevent Disney from making propaganda films for the US during the war...like "Donald Duck in Nutsi land" featuring the song "In der Fueher's face" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

So you're going to make pro-Nazi propaganda in the US DURING the war then? Bad for business.

Charles Lindbergh was also a fan of Nazism BEFORE the war and was even stripped of his Army commission by Roosevelt then suddenly found his patriotism again once Germany declared war on the US.

BerkshireHunt
11-17-2005, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Tallyho1961:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
what did goebbels do to his kids ?

Rent the film 'Downfall' released earlier this year.

I can watch pretty much anything on the screen, but I had real difficulty getting through the scene when Magda Goebbels poisons her children.

It is a heavy, heavy, thing to see and perfectly illustrates the utter lunacy of the Nazi movement and the incredible hold Hitler had on his followers.

I get upset just thinking about it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, it was unnecessary for Magda Goebbels to kill her children. She didn't want them to live in a Germany without Hitler and thought they would be mistreated after the war. But on that point, she was wrong.
Hermann Goering's five year old daughter was briefly incarcerated by the Americans, along with her mother, but she was released in 1947 and is alive to this day. She is a good friend of Heinrich Himmler's daughter, Gudrun, and is renowned for being an unrepentant Nazi. Gudrun, in particular, goes to great lengths to raise money for an association of ex-Waffen SS men (which she takes criticism for, in Germany).

Albert Speer's son is a successful architect, like his father, and has just finished a commission to redevelop part of Shanghai harbour, in China. Rudolf Hess's son and daughter have lived long and fruitful lives. Martin Bormann's sons and daughters are alive and well, as are the sons of Reinhard Heydrich, the man who chaired the Wannsee Conference and initiated the Final Solution.
The sons of Adolf Eichmann are presently gainfully employed in Germany, as are the sons and daughters of Heinrich Muller, Head of the Gestapo and the most senior Nazi henchman to escape prosecution.

The son of Hans Frank, the brutal governor of occupied Poland, is said to toast his father's execution every year, on his birthday (he is a socialist).

And then there are the offspring of thousands of small fry, such as the Kommandant of Treblinka, Franz Stangl and the Auschwitz doctor, Hans Kremer.
All of these men had young families because Nazi ideology encouraged reproduction as a duty to the state. The children lead quiet, unremarkable lives for the most part and keep out of the newspapers.
In America, the three sons of Hitler's nephew, Patrick Hitler, work as gardeners under a different name (in Long Island, New York), which I suppose is understandable.
If the Goebbels children were still alive, they would probably also have changed their infamous surname and also be doing something innocuous. Working in advertising perhaps?

berg417448
11-17-2005, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
We like to set apart these men as non-humans so we can rest assured that we are not anything like them. Anything which reminds us of their humanity makes us feel uncomfortable for it confronts us with the beast that is man.

To call these men sociopaths is simply sticking your head in the sand, truth is these were cunning dictators who literally walked over bodies to assure their position.

It can happen again.

It is very likely that it will happen again within the next couple of hundred years...

It already has happened or is happening:

Remember the 'Killing fields" in Cambodia?

Iraq attempting to eliminate the Kurds?

The Mugabe government in Africa purging all the whites?

The "ethnic cleansing" of the Balkans war?

The Chinese attempt to completely eliminate the Tibetan culture?


Did it ever really stop?

Tallyho1961
11-17-2005, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by berg417448:
Did it ever really stop?

Sadly, no. It's just a question of who and with what 'justification'.

ploughman
11-17-2005, 12:40 PM
I don't think stating that either Hitler or Stalin were pair of sociopaths is sticking one's head anywhere. Let's be fair, it takes a particular kind of person to become what these two became, and not everyone has it in them, or has had the right kind of experiences and opportunities that might allow them 'flower' in this particular kind've way. On the other hand, recent history has shown that when it comes to being a plague on your fellow man, there's quite a queue. As to, 'will it happen again?' It already has and we did bugger until it was too late then too.

Ruy Horta
11-20-2005, 01:25 PM
I was thinking more in terms of a World War with tens of millions of casualties, that hasn't happened, yet.

jds1978
11-20-2005, 01:37 PM
I was thinking more in terms of a World War with tens of millions of casualties, that hasn't happened, yet.

the cold war was awfully hot in the 3rd world between 1950-91. Tens of millions killed, easily. there are a lot of political scientists/historians who count that as "WW3"

I agree 100% w/ Bearcat99. God help us


Nope.. not propaganda.. in fact Walt Disney was virulently racist and a anti semeitic in his politics.... he and Hitler were indeed fans of each other.

Ditto for Henry Ford

Pirschjaeger
11-20-2005, 08:37 PM
We're always looking back in time with 20/20 hindsight.

Remember, before WW2 the Nazis were respected and accepted outside of Germany.

We always look at the end results but rarely look at what lead to these. If we concentrated on the events leading upto WW2, would we see similar things happening today? This is not a suggestion but a legitimate question.

Typically, we will wait for the results before questioning the actions.

Fritz

Jumoschwanz
11-21-2005, 07:07 AM
KInd of like George W. Bush, he lies to himself and the world saying he is doing what is right and doing what God tells him, and now 100,000+ civilians are dead in the middle east so he and his cronies can grab the oil there. And all the conservative evangelical christians are just like the Nazi party, going along with him so they can continue the sick consumerism that is their way of life, driving around in gas-guzzling SUVs. These are the true neo-nazis. They will slaughter anyone that gets in the way of their way of life or threatens their money.

Jumoschwanz

BSS_Goat
11-21-2005, 07:49 AM
So Jumoschwanz, tell us how you really feel. LOL

vanjast
11-21-2005, 09:24 AM
I was about to say..
2 in the hand is worth 3 in the Bush... or was that 2... how many fingers have I?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Think of this....
Adolph built large armies, which eventually went to war. He 'justified' this in 'Mein Kamph'.
Amelica has large armies and weapons in stockpile from the cold war era, and they going to war. Justified by the Bush (and cronies) on the 'war on terrorism' as he'd been 'told by a god' of some sort.

Who's is really the raving lunatic... Or is just for oil, like adolph wanted the Caucases ?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

jensenpark
11-21-2005, 03:50 PM
Oh lord...here come the morons with the Bush/US = Nazi stuff again.

Spare me the drivel.

Everyone has an opinion and a right to express it, but I'm sorry...you're statements just are just plain stupid and offensive on so many levels.

blakduk
11-21-2005, 05:19 PM
This is starting to deteriorate into a contemporary politics debate, which it shouldnt as this is not the right forum http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
As for the Reich hierarchy- they were not 'lunatics'. If they had been merely insane they would never have achieved the results they strove for. They were utterly ruthless in pursuing their goals and succeeded in destroying nearly all the limitations on their power- Hitler managed to crush all challengers in his own party (the infamous 'night of the long knives'), made himself chancellor and Fuehrer, had the Wermacht swear an oath of loyalty to him personally etc.
As he saw it he was a 'good man' righting the wrongs of history and the oppression of the German people. Just who were 'his' Germans was very open to his interpretation. The anarchy of the 1920's and dysfunction of the Weimar republic made it possible.
Stalin achieved the same thing in the USSR, Mugabe has achieved the same in Zimbabwe as had Kim Il Sung in North Korea.
The key to a humane state is checks on power- its frustrating for leaders and makes the process for policy changes a chore. Ultimately its necessary however to curb the excesses of dictators, no matter how benign their intentions when they gained power.
As Edmund Burke stated 'For evil to triumph all that is required is for good men to do nothing'. You could add 'For an evil regime to succeed, all it needs do is render good men powerless'.

vanjast
11-22-2005, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by jensenpark:
Everyone has an opinion and a right to express it, but I'm sorry...you're statements just are just plain stupid and offensive on so many levels.

It's a simplified opinion, but the results are invaribly the same, that's if you do care to look at it from another 'angle'.

p-11.cAce
11-22-2005, 09:52 AM
Prob going to get flamed for this but oh well...
There was alot of "evil" on both sides of WWII. The Germans gassed the Jews and the Allies fire-bombed Dresden & nuked the Japanese. The Germans brutalized some pow's and the Allies bombed refugee camps. War is Hell and it is left to the victor to describe the "insanity" of the vanquished. The fact is that people are people and there were thousands of allied soldiers who bombed, shot, stabbed, flamed, and beat axis soldiers then returned home to lead out normal lives, love their kids, and bounce their grandkids on their knees. Same for the axis soldiers. The real danger IMHO is to assume that "those" people are so different from "us" - In "Iron Coffins" by Herbert Werner he speaks about his desire to destroy as many allied ships as possible, his conversation with a downed allied pilot in which he tells the pilot that Germany's victory is inevitable, his anger at finding his girlfriends house destroyed by allied bombs and her & her family dead, his happiness at his sisters weeding and his love of his mother when she sends him a birthday cake. He also writes about the satisfaction he feels when watching an allied ship go down in flames, explosions blowing men high into the air, burning fuel consuming the life boats. Mr. Werner moved to the US after the war and lived out a "normal life". I think that had the allies lost the war many of our top generals would have been shot or hung for war crimes and many would look back at us and speak of our unbelievable evil. It is all just a matter of perspective.

joeap
11-22-2005, 02:25 PM
No I disagree with you, profoundly, but... I won't flame you.



Just beat you senseless and say I was right.



Joke. The second part. See we can disagree without flames sometimes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

jensenpark
11-22-2005, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
Prob going to get flamed for this but oh well...
There was alot of "evil" on both sides of WWII. The Germans gassed the Jews and the Allies fire-bombed Dresden & nuked the Japanese. The Germans brutalized some pow's and the Allies bombed refugee camps. War is Hell and it is left to the victor to describe the "insanity" of the vanquished. The fact is that people are people and there were thousands of allied soldiers who bombed, shot, stabbed, flamed, and beat axis soldiers then returned home to lead out normal lives, love their kids, and bounce their grandkids on their knees. Same for the axis soldiers. The real danger IMHO is to assume that "those" people are so different from "us" - In "Iron Coffins" by Herbert Werner he speaks about his desire to destroy as many allied ships as possible, his conversation with a downed allied pilot in which he tells the pilot that Germany's victory is inevitable, his anger at finding his girlfriends house destroyed by allied bombs and her & her family dead, his happiness at his sisters weeding and his love of his mother when she sends him a birthday cake. He also writes about the satisfaction he feels when watching an allied ship go down in flames, explosions blowing men high into the air, burning fuel consuming the life boats. Mr. Werner moved to the US after the war and lived out a "normal life". I think that had the allies lost the war many of our top generals would have been shot or hung for war crimes and many would look back at us and speak of our unbelievable evil. It is all just a matter of perspective.


I'm sorry, but I can't accept the murder of 6 million Jews and 4 million others in death camps as matters of perspective. Nor was the rape of Nanking a matter of perspective, nor the treatment of Allied POW's in Japan and so on. It almost seems as if people excuse the evils of what the Nazis or Imperial Army did as part of life or acceptable because after all, "the allies bombed Dresden".
There will always be annecdotal stories of a German soldier who was only doing his duty. But it was duty for an evil regime bent on extermination of whole races. "Yea they murdered 20 million, but Alfred X flew with honour so it is a matter of perspective". Sorry.
It reminds me of the apologists of Mao or Stalin: yea, they killed off 20 to 30 million of their own, but it was for the good cause of socialism and for the greater good.
With hindsight, parts of the war could have/should have been conducted differently by the allies - but c'mon already.

Ruy Horta
11-23-2005, 03:00 AM
Actually I agree with Jensen, those fighting Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan (and to a certain extend Soviet Russia) did stand on superior moral ground. Mass extermination was the worst crime of WW2, and when waged on an industrial level (as with the killing of Jews) unparalelled in history.

We should indeed not fall into the "but the allies bombed Dresden" trap.

But when all operations and actions are judged objectively, and as single events, you'll find plenty of examples where allied action must be condemned. This might appear like I am falling into "the trap" myself, but there is a difference. This discussion should not be a tit for tat affair.

However before people start using moral blanket statements, they should reflect on the histories of their countries and think about the foundation of their position (accumulation of wealth, explotation of weak etc.)

The dutch consider themselves to be pretty moral, the average dutch lives in the country and is a Christian, practicing or not. We like pointing a finger at the world and say that people misbehave, yet much of our wealth is based on exploitation in the past and to some extend shady dealings into the present.

p-11.cAce
11-23-2005, 07:37 AM
However before people start using moral blanket statements, they should reflect on the histories of their countries and think about the foundation of their position (accumulation of wealth, explotation of weak etc.)

I could not agree more. I love being an American but there are a few things that I am uncomfortable with about our past and present. It is a fact that we committed genocide of the Native Americans through our own system of "camps" via starvation, slaughter, and basic biological warfare. We were one of the last "modern" countries to allow legalized slavery. We experimented with eugenics to the point of sterilizing those deemed "unfit". Today one in five of our children live in poverty and millions of our fellow citizens go without shelter or food on a daily basis.
I am sure I'll get the inevitable moronic "if you don't like it get the *** out" responses which is unfortunate. I work for a non-profit social service agency serving those very people and am proud of my country on the whole. I think the "trap" is committing the all too American error of going all one way or the other on every issue when in fact most events in history are caused not by evil but by people trying to honestly do what they feel is best for those they care about or identify with. The results of such actions are sometimes "evil" but rarely is the intent to create evil for the sake of evil.

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 08:13 AM
Jenson, Ruy, P-11, I agree with you guys, especially P-11's post.

No doubt P-11, you will get flamed and those flames, in a round about, way support exactly what you are saying.

It's the whole "with us or against us" mentality. People need to learn that it's ok to disagree and still be friends.

Fritz

MLudner
11-23-2005, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
KInd of like George W. Bush, he lies to himself and the world saying he is doing what is right and doing what God tells him, and now 100,000+ civilians are dead in the middle east so he and his cronies can grab the oil there. And all the conservative evangelical christians are just like the Nazi party, going along with him so they can continue the sick consumerism that is their way of life, driving around in gas-guzzling SUVs. These are the true neo-nazis. They will slaughter anyone that gets in the way of their way of life or threatens their money.

Jumoschwanz

Self-ban suspended, and I tried to avoid this, but...

Hey, Baghdad Bob! I thought they caught you, dude! Wow! Or, do they let you have laptops down there in Gitmo? Hey, I have some bad news, man, just in case you haven't heard: They caught your boy in a rat-hole near Tikrit. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif Also, it looks like your friend, Zarqawi, might have caught one, too. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif Not going too hot for you boys right now, is it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 10:01 AM
The title says "Inside the mind of a lunatic,..." I click on MLudner's name and what do I read? Ha ha ha http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

MLudner
11-23-2005, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
The title says "Inside the mind of a lunatic,..." I click on MLudner's name and what do I read? Ha ha ha http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

I suppose Baghadad Bob there is entirely sane?

MLudner
11-23-2005, 12:26 PM
Now, Baghdad (Or, would you prefer Mr. Bob?), on a more serious note:

KInd of like George W. Bush, he lies to himself and the world saying he is doing what is right and doing what God tells him, and now 100,000+ civilians are dead in the middle east so he and his cronies can grab the oil there. And all the conservative evangelical christians are just like the Nazi party, going along with him so they can continue the sick consumerism that is their way of life, driving around in gas-guzzling SUVs. These are the true neo-nazis. They will slaughter anyone that gets in the way of their way of life or threatens their money.

Jumoschwanz

Seriously, when you read this this post you see why the Left butchered 100,000,000 + people in the 20th Century. They paint anyone they disagree with as the ultimate evil, which of course justifies doing absolutely anything to them. ANYTHING.

Of course, Mr. Bob will say that that is just what G. W. Bush is doing. Of course completely ignoring how often Bush has said we are not at war with all of Islam, all Arabs, or otherwise. The pains we have taken to reduce as much as humanly possible civilian losses, ET CETERA, ET CETERA and the amount of money we are now spending to rebuild both Iraq and Afghanistan.
(BTW, I would like to continue to extend my sympathies to the Afghanistanis for the loss of Abdul Haq and Ahmed Shah Massoud at the hands of Al Qa'ida and the Taliban. I will remember their contributions to you. I have known of them since I was a teenager. In all of this these murders infuriated me almost as much as the Twin Towers Massacre.)

You speak of Bush's lies? Have you ever heard that saying about throwing stones if you live in a glass house?
Guess not, huh, Mr. Bob?
It is the Leftist 5th Column that made this war a war over WMD's, not Bush. Bush never said that we were invading Iraq because your boy had WMD's; he listed that as ONE (is that number too large for you?) of a DOZEN separate reasons for removing your boy from from power.
Next lie:
War for Oil. The Gulf War of 1991, that was a war for oil. Just, it was your boy's war for oil, Billy-Bob, not ours. What would it matter to us who we are buying the oil from? Was your boy threatening to shut-off oil production?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif
Why, no; he was not. In fact, your boy's whole plan was conquer Kuwait then sell their oil as his own to recoup his losses after his failed 8 year war against Iran. If it was the oil WE were after, why fight your boy at all? He would have sold it to us, no prob, Bob! No questions, either, and been just fine and happy.
If we wanted the oil why didn't we stay in Iraq after the war, declare Iraq a provence, and retain control of the oil?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif
Instead, we left once the UN mandate was complete and your boy had been booted out of Kuwait.
We embargoed your boy's oil. In other words:
We refused to buy it.
Same with this last war: Why attack your boy, Mister Bob? If we wanted his oil all we had to do was end the embargo. Your boy would have sold us all we'd buy.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif
You are a walking house of cards and I am a hurricane.

I won't respond to you will the hatred your post seethed with in your unbounded hypocracy, but only with the ridicule it so richly deserves.

joeap
11-23-2005, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Jenson, Ruy, P-11, I agree with you guys, especially P-11's post.

No doubt P-11, you will get flamed and those flames, in a round about, way support exactly what you are saying.

It's the whole "with us or against us" mentality. People need to learn that it's ok to disagree and still be friends.

Fritz
Well how can you agree with all 3 when their posts were so different? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

MLudner
11-23-2005, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
The title says "Inside the mind of a lunatic,..." I click on MLudner's name and what do I read? Ha ha ha http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

By the way, your original icon was cooler, especially with the crack under your name (You should not have gotten the Mods to remove their add-on! It was good! I miss it.).

Though, this one is sexier, that's sure .... unless you had a death-fetish, whereupon...

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Jenson, Ruy, P-11, I agree with you guys, especially P-11's post.

No doubt P-11, you will get flamed and those flames, in a round about, way support exactly what you are saying.

It's the whole "with us or against us" mentality. People need to learn that it's ok to disagree and still be friends.

Fritz
Well how can you agree with all 3 when their posts were so different? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They all had good points. It was also 3 am, I might have missed something.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by MLudner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
The title says "Inside the mind of a lunatic,..." I click on MLudner's name and what do I read? Ha ha ha http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

By the way, your original icon was cooler, especially with the crack under your name (You should not have gotten the Mods to remove their add-on! It was good! I miss it.).

Though, this one is sexier, that's sure .... unless you had a death-fetish, whereupon... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, I leave that to the Goths. The Gothics even have a party club in my village. On nights they party, you have to be extra careful to not run them over in the dark. They are harder to spot on the road than hedgehogshttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 08:08 PM
BTW MLudner, don't take me serious with my comment. It was more about the contrast of your post with you usual posts. It seems you snapped under pressure. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

MLudner
11-25-2005, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
BTW MLudner, don't take me serious with my comment. It was more about the contrast of your post with you usual posts. It seems you snapped under pressure. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Sorry, I was not home much yesterday when I was not cooking. As you know, it was dinosaur eating day over here; Thanksgiving.

My girlfriend used to be a goth when she was younger. She got over it though without getting run over by speeding Canadians, ay. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I didn't. That post was ridicule, which was all the response Baghdad Bob warranted. With some people one can have a reasoned discussion, but with others ...

Copperhead310th
11-25-2005, 12:24 PM
IMO

These type of people IE, Hitler, Geobbels, the Nazis's ect. are not monsters. they are not inharntly evil. and in as much as i myslef like to think of them as so....they are simply human. And as such become evil. for humanity as a whole is evil. Honestly humnaity IMO is a vacume...and we will eventually, at some point in time, fill that vacum & destroy ourselvs. these ppl are simply the basic bottom of the human chain. although they precivie themselves to be at the top of this chain they are in fact nothing with out the rest of humanity. While they are moraly void and emotionaly corupt...the rest of the world sets the examples for these type people to break. with out the morally just laws of the rest of the world all of humaity would fall into the same pit of lunacy as these pepole. But it is good to remember that one person, one individual, is not just born into being evil. they become that way over the course of thier lifetime. through they're experiances, heartaches, trials & tribulations. What does not kill us only makes us stronger. and streangth can be either a positive or a negative force in life. It's only how the person chooses to use these strenghts that decide weather he/she will bea force for the positive or negative.
I have said....many many times, over the course of my adult life that human existance, each individual life, & the course we all take is decided by four things. Consiquence, Circomstance, Choice & Devine Intervention.
Remember one of Gods greatest gifts to mankind is FREEWILL. We all have the freedom of choice with in the laws of God & humaity to become what we will become. and these men became evil.

joeap
11-25-2005, 01:10 PM
Copperhead http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Copperhead310th
11-25-2005, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
Copperhead http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
Thank you, thank you, you've all been a wonderful audiance.....i'll be here all night.
Would you like fries with that?
Now please drive through...... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif