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View Full Version : What is a co-op mission on HL....???



MB_Avro_UK
12-16-2005, 05:16 PM
Hi all,

Today I started a co-op mission with my MB Squad mates on HL. A non MB guy joined who took the opposite side. I kicked him because a co-op is not a dogfight and requires co-operation.

He PM'd me to say that we were obviously afraid of his skills and therefore in his opinion he was kicked by me for this reason.

He may have been an excellent pilot but to my mind a co-op is a co-operative mission where we all work together as a team http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Any views anyone?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro

Zeus-cat
12-16-2005, 05:26 PM
Here is my opinion.

If you were in a public room on HL, you should not have kicked the guy because he was not in your squad or because he flew the "wrong" side. Co-ops are meant to be flown head to head as well as people against computer. I think they are actually better with humans on the opposing side as people are far more unpredictable than the AI.

If you truly wanted a people vs. computer mission, why didn't you lock out the opposing side in the FMB? Did the brief say not to fly the "enemy" planes and only to fly the friendlies?

If you want to lock out non-squad members from your HL missions, you can do that by using passwords.

I would consider your actions very rude if you booted me like that.

Zeus-cat

DxyFlyr
12-16-2005, 05:27 PM
Blue can cooperate with blue in the same game that Red is cooperating with red. That's my take.

I find coops with everyone vs AI somewhat boring. (Not that there's anything wrong with that). They can be fun, and admittedly, usually are, but there's nothing better than having breathers on both sides.

DxyFlyr
12-16-2005, 05:33 PM
I'm with Zeus-Cat about finding your action kind of rude. If blue planes are allowed in the brief, and the host doesn't make his intentions clear, who can blame someone for choosing a plane that was there as an option? I'll add that about 90% of the coops I jump in on the front page at HL are Blue vs Red.

Also, If you want a private game, you might try using a different room. I think that's what Team Play rooms are for, but I'm not entirely sure.

MB_Avro_UK
12-16-2005, 05:41 PM
Thanks for your replies, and maybe I'm wrong!

But co-operative by it's name implies flying on the same side?? I did not restrict pilots to my own squad.

Are you saying that a co-op mission is a form of tactical dogfight?

Are there any HL 'rules' to say how this should be done?

I have joined HL co-op missions in the past and the norm is to fly the same side as the host.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro

DxyFlyr
12-16-2005, 05:55 PM
Well, I understand the confusion. The word does imply working together. I don't know of any specific rules for HL, but I can tell you that the vast majority of coops that I see there are intended for Blue vs Red games.

The beauty is that you can do either... Everyone vs AI or Red vs Blue. Where you communicate that to the player is in the brief and the plane options (as mentioned above). It probably wouldn't hurt to mention it in the lobby chat as well.

btw, HL is set up with dogfight servers and coop servers because that's what the game offers. They act differently. Specifically, coop servers offer more functionality as far as AI ground elements are concerned. I'm sure there are other differences, but they escape me at the moment.

MB_Avro_UK
12-16-2005, 06:08 PM
ok DxyFlyr,

Maybe I have misunderstood the 'rules of engagement'.There appears to be no official guidelines as to what is a 'co-op'.

My thinking perhaps does not conform with the 'norm' and therefore I apologise to the guy I kicked.

Perhaps I should in future create a 'private' co-op?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro

Archer_F4U
12-16-2005, 06:37 PM
If you want to fly with people outside of your squad, the easiest thing would be to go into the FMB and check the AI Only box for all the planes that aren't on the side you want to fly. If necessary save it twice (eg XXX-Blue and XXX-Red). Then the players won't have the options to fly on the opposing team.

p1ngu666
12-16-2005, 06:39 PM
its rude to kick someone for that mate http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

both types can be fun http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Tully__
12-16-2005, 06:42 PM
As has been said, if you want everyone on one side, set up the mission that way in FMB.

If you have a mission with open slots on both sides and you're hosting from one of the four Coop rooms, you shouldn't have kicked him unless he disobeyed instructions in the brief in a manner that resulted in ruining the mission for all concerned, used obscenity in chat or team killed in a clearly deliberate manner. On the other hand if you fly from the team room, you can expect people to request permission to join and follow instructions of the hosting team.

Simply deviating from the briefed course or choosing the other side in a public coop is not sufficient cause unless you've clearly stated in HL chat ahead of time what's expected.

Bearcat99
12-16-2005, 07:08 PM
You shortchange yourself when you limit the live OPFOR... In our coops whoever wants to join can join and if they want to fly OPFOR then thats cool. It is more challenging with the unpredictableness of live pilots. If you want to fly a squad only mission then password it, go to a team room, or like others said.. set up the missiuons in the FMB with flyable red only. If you go to the blue planes and set them as AI only and save the mission it will do that.

MB_Avro_UK
12-16-2005, 07:48 PM
Thanks for the replies guys.

OK, acording to you all I am the bad guy. But according to my team mates I did the right thing by kicking him (not the most serious of social errors in the real world !).

Despite no guidelines in HL or Ubi lobby to state what is right and wrong re co-ops I did my best to do what I thought was right.

For instance,I have never joined a co-op on the 'opposite' side and no other player in my experience has done the same..Seems to me to be an oxymoron in terms.

I will stand by my standards and kick amyone in future who flies the opposite side in co-op.

Standing by my guns,
MB_Avro

Tully__
12-16-2005, 08:47 PM
Just edit the missions so that opfor is not available, it's a really simple edit and no-one has to be kicked.

Most coops I join either only have one side available or let people fly whatever they want.

danjama
12-16-2005, 08:59 PM
Yep! You should write in the information section that you want reds only up, or blues only up, so that people arent disapointed! Plus what everyone else has said...

Only posting to show my face http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

P.S. surely it would be more interesting to ket humans fly on the opposite side???? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

x6BL_Brando
12-17-2005, 04:59 AM
My take Avro, is that you're missing one of the better sides of flying coops - that of taking on another human 'pilot'. The bonus over the majority of dogfighting arenas is that you have a distinct mission to carry out - against whatever the enemy throws at you. Having human opponents adds even more to the uncertainty factor when you set off to your target. No human will fly the waypoints in the same way that an AI will - so having just one side 'live' will do this. Having both sides manned brings an even sharper edge.

Our squad (6BL) is flying quite a few training missions and also testing some newly-written co-ops. To do this we assemble in a Team Room in HL. If we don't want hitch-hikers then the host types PRIVATE in the Info bar. Otherwise it might read Mission Testing only - and our friends and/ or rivals will usually page one of us to say 'okay to come in?' If it ain't then we'll say 'sorry' and that's it.

If someone jumps into a slot without asking then he/she MAY get paged and politely asked to leave, depending how private we want to be. But that's what we do in team slots. Coops are public unless passworded, and you may expect anyone to jump in a slot because of that. In fact it's considered polite for people to take slots on the opposing side, to even up the action.

Letting someone in and then booting them is like holding a private function in a pub without hanging a sign at the door. How would you feel if you wandered into your local bar, ordered a drink and then got thrown out? HyperLobby IS tailored for any level of private play - you just have to use the tools provided.

carguy_
12-17-2005, 05:17 AM
You acted like a plain bigot.

Rooms: COOP1/COOP2 are public rooms that are default view in HL program.Practicly through all 3 years HL players learned that anyone can join COOP1/2 missions.

Squad based coops are rooms labeled as TEAMPLAY1/2/3.You havta always ask if you want to be in a such coop.

Even if it was a private game you should have passworded it or just place some information on the room(game info).

You should also have politely asked him to leave.A kick is the last tool you use.


On a side note - the guy who said you were affreid of his skills is a...well,a d_umbas_s http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

dbillo
12-17-2005, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
...I have never joined a co-op on the 'opposite' side and no other player in my experience has done the same..Seems to me to be an oxymoron in terms.
How do you determine what is the 'opposite' side? The terms 'coop' and 'dogfight' in this sim really say more about how the game handles the mission, rather than what actually goes on in the mission. Many 'coop' missions actually end up playing out as dogfights, and any 'dogfight' mission can have cooperative play on each side.

The main differences as far as how the game handles the two types are:
Dogfight has only 'live' pilots, no AI planes and no moving vehicles.
Dogfight can be joined and rejoined at any time.
Dogfight players can select plane type from a list.
Coop can have AI planes and moving vehicles.
Coop must be joined at start and can't be rejoined.
Coop is limited to planes that are placed on the map in the mission.

Other than that, anything goes. Both coop and dogfight have red and blue armies. If you want to limit the seats available to one side, do as has been suggested in the FMB. You can watch coop missions on HL fill up both sides all day. Obviously, there is no rule against it.

Dunkelgrun
12-17-2005, 06:24 AM
Definitely in the wrong avro m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif. The alternatives have all been listed above, so you can choose which way to go next time.

When 242 host coops we have both sides flyable, with objectives and targets for everyone. We sometimes fly together on one side, sometimes against each other, and happily fly with or against whoever else wants to join in. The only downside is that some of the guests won't be on our TS server, but the chat box suffices.

If we do want a 242-only game (e.g. training) then the server is passworded.

Cheers!

rnzoli
12-17-2005, 09:02 AM
Unfortunately, this situation is not so rare on HL. People sometimes forget or don't bother setting a password for their servers, then kick unsuspecting entrants later. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

But boasting that 'you kicked me because I am better' is just as ugly, isn't it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

FluffyDucks
12-17-2005, 10:25 AM
You were definitely in the wrong.Coops generally have two teams(unless it has been setup in FMB), you will also see that the slots in HL coop rooms are differentiated (one lighter than the other) this is so that people can tell which team they are in. Coops have ALWAYS had red/blue missions, I must say I would have been pretty annoyed too.

Kuna15
12-17-2005, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
Here is my opinion.

If you were in a public room on HL, you should not have kicked the guy because he was not in your squad or because he flew the "wrong" side. Co-ops are meant to be flown head to head as well as people against computer. I think they are actually better with humans on the opposing side as people are far more unpredictable than the AI.

If you truly wanted a people vs. computer mission, why didn't you lock out the opposing side in the FMB? Did the brief say not to fly the "enemy" planes and only to fly the friendlies?

If you want to lock out non-squad members from your HL missions, you can do that by using passwords.

I would consider your actions very rude if you booted me like that.

Zeus-cat

Ditto.

MB_Avro_UK
12-17-2005, 03:31 PM
Hi all,

As someone once said, 'It takes a big guy to admit he is wrong, but I'm not a big guy!'.

I and my squad spent a lot of time on Ubi co-ops where it was accepted that co-op missions involved flying on the same side. Since none of us can now host on Ubi for whatever technical reason (another topic?) we have migrated to HL.

I thought I was doing the right thing by kicking this guy having explained the situation and later apologised to him.

Obviously my actions did not comply with HL etiquette http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I will take the advice from you all and make the situation clear in future.

We are a friendly international squad and don't want to antagonise the community but I think that the rules need to be clarified.

Thanks for your guidance http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
MB_Avro

rnzoli
12-18-2005, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by dbillo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
...I have never joined a co-op on the 'opposite' side and no other player in my experience has done the same..Seems to me to be an oxymoron in terms.
The terms 'coop' and 'dogfight' in this sim really say more about how the game handles the mission, rather than what actually goes on in the mission. Many 'coop' missions actually end up playing out as dogfights, and any 'dogfight' mission can have cooperative play on each side.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Minor correction. Dogfight missions provided by the IL2 software don't have any element of cooperative play! This helps explaining the terminology, Avro.

In coop mode, there is an objective for each side, and the players on the same side must cooperate, else they risk loosing the mission objective, the mission will fail.

In dogfight mode, there is absolutely no objective for the mission. There is no such thing as mission failure.

When you see (dedicated) dogfight servers with mission objectives, these objectives are provided by software completely outside of IL2. These are scripted DF servers, where the console port is used by some additional game controller software (FBDaemon, IL2SC), to bring in some elements of cooperative gameplay, while retaining the flexibility of dogfight mode (easy join/leave).