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View Full Version : Torp planes: A blessing or........



Mjollnir111675
12-05-2004, 02:11 PM
do you think the introduction of torp planes are gonna help or hinder this sim? The reason I bring this up is cuz it seems that it will open a whole new can o' worms fer this sim. Lemme explain...

All I would like is fer this sim to have torp planes.I like the whole ground support idea whether its german anti armor stukas,the Il-2 and nothing beats even that except delivering damage to a ship via torp functioning in/correct(which is a whole other concern:defects of torp production being modeled at atleast a rudi-scale), but when one takes this idea to the p.t.o. you start to see alot of things that will be brought forth by the wave skippin hell deliverin gu-11's that will hopefully come.
1) a whole new look at the 1000-0 ft. view of the game.This alone will cover almost all of the future worries of mine
2)this brings MYRIAD ship types to light.This alone can get ridiculous! From P.T.'s ,L.S.T.'s,L.S.D.'s(AHEM! keep attention ya long hair and dont try to divert the topic!!),L.C.M.'s,fleet oilers,tenders(brought this up in another thread:the ability to pop up on an unsuspecting refuel/arm process would really be cool)),subs(that can have waypoints or maybe some kinda rudi- timing fer deisel op of their own along yer flight path and have a surface/submerge script to raise the odds of stumbling upon one in a mission,maybe a hidden objective status fer this?),junks,more commercial traffic,FULL FLEET ROSTER which of course is expansive at best http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif .
Then fleet maneuvering.NOT single ship manuevering but FLEET manuvering.Ya see when ya come upon a carrier RARELY did ya come upon just it and a couple o' cruisers.Oh no,ALOT more than that,at the least.And when I start ta think bout all that just these one type of planes need I really do get bummed cuz I can see where they would like to take it (let alone what I would consider adequate and most of you too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif).
Then comes the damage models fer the ships. Man o' man could this alone be a long @ss thread/debate.But i guess the option is to have transparent pegs like in battleship show up on the top of the ship to let ya know.Well we have id tags fer planes why not?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
And then the topic of a war churned sea coming up.Cuz all that movement does make life a lil "choppy" at best especially at t/o&landing.Ocean movement is another topic in itself that could get ******ed let alone the p.c. to run it @ acceptable framerates!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif
And the visuals concerning the graphix of the ships "prow break",waterline and wake.Right now the prow break is this circular saw blade animation that suffices but just wait till the torp planes arrive and the screenshots will show something else. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
And after "ALL O' THAT" we now have a further focus on the surface which will no doubt invite more topics about infantry,armor,and all other terrestrial inhabitants.
Introduction of the torp planes is gonna really bring alot of probs to this sim.I want them more than any other person wants any other a/c.But I can also understand Oleg 'n' Crew's hesitant approach to this.
Fer me I can see all of the future anomolies,complaints,quarrels and debates.
If you have any other worries about this please post them.It just makes me wonder if this alone(being the torp planes) can/could be a whole other expansion pack kinda like AEP.

Late,
Mjollnir

Sakai9745
12-05-2004, 02:54 PM
Me personally, I'd welcome the addition, mostly because of the fact that torpedo planes played a major part in PTO to begin with. Coral Sea, Midway, Philippine Sea, the various actions at Leyte Gulf, etc, etc, etc. I believe every single carier vs. carrier battle had torp-planes trying to run the gauntlet to deliver their loads. W/O them, it's kind of like cake without the icing; you can get away with it, but it just isn't the same.

As for the can of worms, I say we deal with those when we get to that crossroad. Besides, many of the points that you raised in your original post (fleet maneuvering, ship dmg modeling, etc) are already out in the open. Introducing flyable Kates, Devastators, Jills, and Avengers, at least IMO, shouldn't bring a worsening boil to that cauldron.

Mjollnir111675
12-05-2004, 03:02 PM
Oh yeah i more than welcome the torp planes. They ARE THE reason I am so interested in this game.Now I know the title so no one else needs remind me but again they are the reasons I got me fb/aep skills up because they are me fave planes of the war.I cannot say how long I have been waiting fer Oleg to address them but I can see where he is so apprehensive ya know? But I cannot refuse to see the pointing out of the fact that they WILL open up alot of further issues.
And as far as them playing a role I can only agree and write that off as a no-brainer thats why I didn't mention it.
And nah they are more than just icing they are the eggs,or sugar they need to arrive and how!!!
I just thought i would post why they are taking so long nothing more!! There is alot to consider from the dev's p.o.v.

Atomic_Marten
12-05-2004, 03:16 PM
I want B5N2 Kate. Period. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mjollnir111675
12-05-2004, 03:23 PM
Yep ami,jap,frikkin alien fer all I care if it was in the war it should be in tha game!!And atleast one torp plane fer each side FLYABLE.
Hey there's a twist on ea's schloggin: "If it's in tha war,it's in tha sim!!"

FoolTrottel
12-05-2004, 03:49 PM
Why not stop talking about it and just go and torp some ships. You can already you know....
I just spent several hours dropping them (online)... from a Beaufighter.... or an Il2T....
Maybe not historically correct... but.... just stop talking about them, start dropping them, come back here and start commenting on the whole thing..... (I'd rather have people whining on things that are there, than on things that will be there! ;-)
Oh, and BTW, it is fun... once you get the chance to get close and line up, low on the water, and get closer and closer and closer....

Masterjts
12-05-2004, 04:07 PM
If they just allowed the torpedo planes to be flyable without changing anything else I would be happy.

I honestly dont see how you linked the addition of torpedo planes to 90% of that post.

Mjollnir111675
12-05-2004, 04:11 PM
I HAVE torp'd some ships dude!
And I have not in any way whined that I can see.
Yeah if tha beaufighter is yer thing.
ok then bring up some torp plane or torp anomolies!!Kinda hard when they AREN'T even here yet ya.......Ok counts to 10.
What "whole thing"? Whaddya talkin bout??

Fuhgeddahboutit Fool!!! Apt name btw.

FoolTrottel
12-05-2004, 04:26 PM
Okay, here we go:
You state: " All I would like is fer this sim to have torp planes "
Well, they are there, aren't they?

So..... Counts to 5 (I am a Fool ya know...can't even get that far I guess....)
What I mean is: You are thinking and talking about aspects that you think are not there right now: (...) a whole new look at the 1000-0 ft. view of the game.This alone will cover almost all of the future worries of mine(...) aha, WORRIES.... (...)This alone can get ridiculous!(...)
(...) Fer me I can see all of the future anomolies,complaints,quarrels and debates. If you have any other worries about this please post them.(...)

Yup, sounds to me you are asking for trouble, just a bit!

Hey, I did not want to annoy you in any way. My apologies if I offended you... Just wanted to put the emphasys on the playing, on the fun!

FUN! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Masterjts
12-05-2004, 04:31 PM
Pacific Fighters alone doesnt have any torpedo bombers that are flyable. I think that is what he meant.

*Except it has the A-20 so that cant be what he meant?

FoolTrottel
12-05-2004, 04:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Masterjts:
Pacific Fighters alone doesnt have any torpedo bombers that are flyable. I think that is what he meant.

*Except it has the A-20 so that cant be what he meant? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Whoooo..... No torp planes in PF stand alone?
I stand corrected.
(But then, where did my Beau come from? I haven't seen it in IL2, FB or AEP.... but the fool could be wrong here)

Mjollnir111675
12-05-2004, 04:49 PM
Nah no offense taken Fool.
yes besides the obvious planes which are more of a bomber with an ability to drop torps. I am talking of true torp planes of which there are two/three in dev but none flyable. And again I was only stating MY perception of what the ramifications of introducing them into this game could have on the devs reluctancy to release them that is all.
Besides flying in a 20 with hellcats surrounding me makes me feel a lil silly ya know???
Oh and I DFO have fun.Just thought I'd throw in my thoughts of maybe why they are taking some time.And maybe to bring to light other ppls worries/concerns bout things that will be discovered when we get them.

Masterjts
12-05-2004, 04:50 PM
No I think you are right. I dont know about the beau but the A-20 Havok is in pacific fighters so that probably isnt what he meant.

Snootles
12-05-2004, 04:59 PM
Sure you can fly torpedo missions already in the game. But it's not exactly like you can conduct carrier ops with an A-20. And fundamentally it's not the same as having, say an actual Avenger.

Mjollnir111675
12-05-2004, 05:07 PM
@Masterjts:

"I honestly dont see how you linked the addition of torpedo planes to 90% of that post."

Just wait until more ppl are actually at sea level fer extended periods of time fer these things to be brougt up.Of course you cant see now how they are related but you will.I dont expect everyone to.But if you can just imagine if we had them now what concerns would be brought up.Imagine.I know they tried but dont let the world take that away from you.
Give the whole torp plane issue a really good thought into what all happens at sea level and soon you will understand.

J_Weaver
12-05-2004, 05:31 PM
I would love to see some flyable torp planes. Accurate torp models and ship damage modeling would be nice but I would simply be happy with an Avenger. Even though torps arn't modeled right I think the lack of trop planes, especially carrier based torp planes are a big gap in this great sim.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Athosd
12-05-2004, 05:44 PM
The singular standout issue with torpedo attacks (and dive bombing too for that matter) in the IL2/PF series is the lack of evasive manoeuvers by targetted ships.

Altitude and warhead timers (the latter being a rather unexpected bonus) have been addressed - speed of release hasn't, but we can hope.

Ships don't have any AI as such - and maybe they never will in this series. But I'd really like to see the ships try to avoid getting hit.

As to Mjollnir's other concerns - I think we can live with a good though imperfect environment in the sim - just bring on the planes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers

Athos

Mjollnir111675
12-05-2004, 06:09 PM
@Athosd:

Then you dont believe a somewhat rudimentary d.m. fer the ships needs to be enstated along with damage graphix? And also a bigger watercraft selection?

Masterjts
12-05-2004, 06:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mjollnir111675:
Then you dont believe a somewhat rudimentary d.m. fer the ships needs to be enstated along with damage graphix? And also a bigger watercraft selection? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At this point its already as good as if not better then most games out there. (referencing flight sims not naval games)

Athosd
12-05-2004, 06:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mjollnir111675:
@Athosd:

Then you dont believe a somewhat rudimentary d.m. fer the ships needs to be enstated along with damage graphix? And also a bigger watercraft selection? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Better damage model (I thought the one in the game for ships was already rudimentary http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) and more watercraft would be great (I've contributed to a number of discussions here on those subjects).
The impression I get is that more ships are indeed on the way (don't know about light coastal stuff though).

My point was that ships not behaving in a realistic manner (which you did mention in the original post) i.e trying to evade torpedo and bomb threats; has a more significant impact (pardon the pun) on the simulation than many other issues.

Like most others I'd just like to see these planes modelled in the game if at all possible. Any complications or glaring deficiencies in the simulation that then arise can be dealt with later.

Cheers

Athos

actionhank1786
12-05-2004, 07:00 PM
Fool i think the boy just wants Carrier based Torpedo craft.
I mean sure we can get A-20's and Beau's off the deck (well i've gotten the Beau off i dont know about the A-20) but we can't get them back on (ok i take that back, some probably can, but i still have an *** load of trouble landing the Wildcat, let alone an unhookable, heavy Beaufighter)
I too would enjoy the inclusion of Carrier based Torpedo Bombers.

I think the game's damage modelling for ships is pretty good now.
It would be neat if they tracked oil, and listed a little more, and stayed up top longer before sinking, but we've got something pretty good now.
i think of the things you listed, the only thing really needed to make it perfect for the inclusion (barring implimenting a better torpedo system) would be to include the fleet manuevering to get away from torpedos, and to make the Dive bomber's jobs hell.
All in all though, i say BRING ON THE CARRIER BASED TORPEDO PLANES! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

CrazyDonut
12-05-2004, 07:28 PM
Torpedoes great, but torpedoes waste of time and planes.....

Why use 8 "kates" to drop torpedoes when you can use 4 bettys to kill an carrier with bombs (yes i know its a a land based plane)

second. AI aint good torpedo droppers, they evade flak when they are ontop of the target...kind of stupid when you are dropping on a carrier.....and normally not one plane survive

I like torpedo planes....mertchant ships and DD`S cool....BB`S i need to fly 8-10 runs CV`S need the same.....if i hit the stern of an C`V well no damedge....he still got hes rudder propellars and engine room...all i got is a nice boom and some fire and water to look at....if a fly allied i can choose one "small" plane arm it with rockets and sink carriers...so why bother use torpedoes...again if a few planes can do it why send 8 torpedo planes....

But i know this, i still drop torpedoes im still enjoying this game even with the buggs, the Żberness and all the other stuff im still playing it for 2-4 hours a day.....

Athosd
12-05-2004, 08:30 PM
Hi CrazyDonut,

Your points are valid enough in the game, as it is now. However IRL - which the game is attempting to simulate there are many reasons for using 8 torp bombers instead of a couple of level bombers to take on shipping.

Tiny Tims are currently more akin to tac nukes than merely big rockets with a warhead comprised of a 500lb conventional bomb. Level bombers can fairly easily hit ships underway - as no effort is made to avoid the stick of bombs. And torpedoes are generally rather less effective than in reality.

However - despite the potential to engage targets effectively in an unrealistic manner - I'd still like to have the realistic approach available.

Tater-SW-
12-05-2004, 09:04 PM
Athosd is right. The standard reply is that "this isn't a ship sim, it's a flight sim" but the impact of ships not acting like, well, ships is far reaching.

We need to reduce the number of escorts, and tweak their AAA to have decent FRs, but it's easy to go the other direction and have every strike package sinking ships, even if they all get gunned down.

Missions that are set-[iece affairs for single or coop play can possibly make things slightly more realistic by zig-zagging all the ships from the moment an airstrike is possible, but it would certainly make flight ops from the target CV impossible since they'd have to be zig-zaging all the time.

Ships that react by making even a set evasion pattern as soon as the AAA starts shooting would be a great addition. The fact that all the ships would need to spread out a little to facilitate the maneuvers without collisions would be an added FPS benefit.

tater

CrazyDonut
12-05-2004, 09:46 PM
athosd.

Thrust me im with you all the way, but as you said your self

"Your points are valid enough in the game, as it is now"

and that is what i have to deal with. I would love realism the more the merrier, but i got this game with the all the good stuf and the bad stuf, and that is what i have to adopt to not "what if" and as the game is right now, my opinion is that torpedo planes are a waste of time..sad but true....