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XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 09:26 PM
To any and all experienced P-39 drivers:

Can you make some suggestions for practicing in the ol' Iron Dog? I'm at the point now where I'm able to regularly down two AI Aces at a time (I usually practice against 109's). But, this is typically a lot of extending after head-ons. I know this is an E-Fighter, but I want to learn more about how to use her in other ways: turn fighting, ground atack, everything... I'll eventually get there on my own I suppose, being as I have an itch to fly this plane in every conceivable scenario just to do it, but some suggestions from the Cobra Aces out there would certainly be helpful >8)

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 09:26 PM
To any and all experienced P-39 drivers:

Can you make some suggestions for practicing in the ol' Iron Dog? I'm at the point now where I'm able to regularly down two AI Aces at a time (I usually practice against 109's). But, this is typically a lot of extending after head-ons. I know this is an E-Fighter, but I want to learn more about how to use her in other ways: turn fighting, ground atack, everything... I'll eventually get there on my own I suppose, being as I have an itch to fly this plane in every conceivable scenario just to do it, but some suggestions from the Cobra Aces out there would certainly be helpful >8)

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 11:09 PM
Blind-SC- wrote:
- To any and all experienced P-39 drivers:
-
- Can you make some suggestions for practicing in the
- ol' Iron Dog? I'm at the point now where I'm able to
- regularly down two AI Aces at a time (I usually
- practice against 109's). But, this is typically a
- lot of extending after head-ons. I know this is an
- E-Fighter, but I want to learn more about how to use
- her in other ways: turn fighting, ground atack,
- everything... I'll eventually get there on my own I
- suppose, being as I have an itch to fly this plane
- in every conceivable scenario just to do it, but
- some suggestions from the Cobra Aces out there would
- certainly be helpful >8)



Are you looking for advice on anything specific?

General tips:

*Accept all head on challenges. With the exception of a few aircraft you have the advantage. In the cases where you don't have the advantage it's good practice.

*Set cannon convergence to 100-150m to decrease the lobbing effect of your 37mm shells.

*In a Dog Fight arena (where fuel is decided more by you than the mission) know that less fuel will help your speed and maneuverability and more fuel will increase your gunnery accuracy. I like 50%.

*Make the deadly stalls your friend. Learn to use them.

*Know which aircraft you can turn fight and which ones you can't.

*When turn fighting some Nancy with trim-on-a-heymo tap your combat flaps on/off for a split second at the apex of your turn. This also works fighting against an opponent who has a slight turn advantage.

*Turning absolute horizontal or absolute vertical doesn't generate as quick of a turn as in between the two.

*Looping up increases altitude if you need it. Looping down increases speed when you need it. Remember you're not just fighting an opponent your fighting your resources. Keep them fresh.

*Learn to fly with little or no energy against an opponent with a major E advantage. (See vulching allowed server) With the P-39 you're more likely than in most fighters to end up in this type of situation. Even the best Energy saving strategies will eventually exhaust in this plane.

*Fly online. The AI is usually worse than most online pilots. Also the AI can't simulate the differences between the different human pilots you'll face. Experience of different types becomes available online.

*Learn to land fast, very fast (See vulching allowed server). Come in at 400km/h if you like. A few hundred meters from the runway begin a corkscrew and hit the flaps full. As you nose up and around keep an eye on your speed, when you hit around 270km/h hit the gear and flatten out. You'll gracefully glide onto the runway and will have negated the long landing approach.

*When you drop on an enemy's 6 use the MG's to wear him down. Use short bursts no longer than a half second. When he's worn down or if you have a clean shot initially use the kill shot (37mm).

*If you're ever vulched don't hit refly instead look around and get a fix on the vulcher. Wait till the right moment to spawn. It should be a moment when you can face him. Once you spawn point in his direction and gain speed. Learn to time it so you reach a speed of 100-120km/h when he nears. When he closes down on you, to fire/strafe/vulch, nose up and drill him with a 37mm shot. Remember I said don't pass up any head-on shots.

*My wife just informed me that we have over $20,000 in debt (not counting our house and cars). Now I'm stunned and can't think of anything else. If you have anything specific you'd like advice on I'll get back to you.



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XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 04:33 AM
Well, I'd like to reply with a "Holy crap!" Thanks, Gem! All very useful tips! I especially like this one:

BpGemini wrote:
- *Learn to land fast, very fast (See vulching allowed
- server). Come in at 400km/h if you like. A few
- hundred meters from the runway begin a corkscrew and
- hit the flaps full. As you nose up and around keep
- an eye on your speed, when you hit around 270km/h
- hit the gear and flatten out. You'll gracefully
- glide onto the runway and will have negated the long
- landing approach.

Very cool... never even occurred to me to try coming in that hot.

I'm sure there's specifics that I'd like to discuss, and it seems we have a fair amount of Cobra fans in here to do it with, but I'm so wiped out tired right now (loooong day), I can't think straight. I'll chime back in tomorrow after I get about 24oz of bean juice into my system >8)

Oh, and I feel that pain too... debt sucks >8\

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 07:23 AM
Biggest problem I get with the P-39: too much speed! Q-10 model mind you, but you'll want to keep the throttle at 80% and save the next 40% as your "panic button". Also keeps the engine cool. I recommend using the Q-10 model exclusively because the N-1s 30 cals are basically extra weight against anything but 109s. Q-1 might be a good compromise, but the 50 cal gunpods don't have much ammo.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 10:23 AM
BpGemini wrote:

- *My wife just informed me that we have over $20,000
- in debt (not counting our house and cars). Now I'm
- stunned and can't think of anything else. If you
- have anything specific you'd like advice on I'll get
- back to you.
-- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Your wify seems to be a sharpshooter! That was a clean PK .(= Pilot Kill) I Like saying smart things too, and then my wife aims and fires a short burst and my screen goes black.
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 02:46 PM
BpGemini wrote:
- *Accept all head on challenges. With the exception
- of a few aircraft you have the advantage. In the
- cases where you don't have the advantage it's good
- practice.

Interesting. You're the first I've heard say this. I always thought that head-ons were considered foolhardy, but I like doing them. It may be dangerous, but it's exciting in a Cobra. And yeah, having a big gun makes it more practical I suppose. I bet Yak-9K drivers do the same with that big ol' steam pipe they have on there.


- *In a Dog Fight arena (where fuel is decided more by
- you than the mission) know that less fuel will help
- your speed and maneuverability and more fuel will
- increase your gunnery accuracy. I like 50%.

Interesting... good tip. I never touch the fuel and leave it at default, whatever that is. I'll have to look next time.


- *Make the deadly stalls your friend. Learn to use
- them.

You mean use them or escape from them? And, is this correct: throttle down, rudder with spin and back stick. When slowing, opposite rudder, nose forward pick up speed and split. Seems to work well enough for me. It's been a while since I've gotten into a stall at all, much less one I couldn't recover from. Someone mentioned a planned stall to get someone off your six once. Not sure what the best method is for that.


- *Know which aircraft you can turn fight and which
- ones you can't.

You wouldn't happen to know of a chart that shows who's who in this regard, would you? I've been putting together a spreadsheet on some of the AC data on the IL2 site, but just out of curiosity.


- *When turn fighting some Nancy with trim-on-a-heymo
- tap your combat flaps on/off for a split second at
- the apex of your turn. This also works fighting
- against an opponent who has a slight turn advantage.

I almost never use flaps unless I'm trying touch down. This is good to know.
Q: What's a heymo? A Slider? I don't have a slider.


- *Turning absolute horizontal or absolute vertical
- doesn't generate as quick of a turn as in between
- the two.

I tend to go diagonal to the left (a Chandelle I guess?). Feels the smoothest to me so far. But I need to learn more ACM.


- *Learn to fly with little or no energy against an
- opponent with a major E advantage. (See vulching
- allowed server) With the P-39 you're more likely
- than in most fighters to end up in this type of
- situation. Even the best Energy saving strategies
- will eventually exhaust in this plane.

Yeah, I've been there all too often. I get plenty of this kind of practice >8) My gut feeling is to get out of there and build E when I get slow.


- *When you drop on an enemy's 6 use the MG's to wear
- him down. Use short bursts no longer than a half
- second. When he's worn down or if you have a clean
- shot initially use the kill shot (37mm).

But how do I stay there? That's the tricky part for me. I tend to get thrown off six easily or overshoot. If I come in too fast, I get a snapshot and fly on by, if I come in too slow, he splits and gets away. I ened to learn how to saddle up and stay there.


- *If you're ever vulched don't hit refly instead look
- around and get a fix on the vulcher. Wait till the
- right moment to spawn.

HA... good one. I can't picture myself ever vulching someone and haven't yet, although I have no problem with others doing it. I feel if it's in the game and it's not some hack, then it's legit. Whether it's dirty pool or not, now that's another discussion (that I don't want to be a part of). If I'm ever vulched, I'll just make it my business to track the vulture down and fill his *** with 37mm slugs >B)

There's more, but I'll add a new message later.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 02:48 PM
Korolov wrote:
- Biggest problem I get with the P-39: too much speed!
- Q-10 model mind you, but you'll want to keep the
- throttle at 80% and save the next 40% as your "panic
- button". Also keeps the engine cool. I recommend
- using the Q-10 model exclusively because the N-1s 30
- cals are basically extra weight against anything but
- 109s. Q-1 might be a good compromise, but the 50 cal
- gunpods don't have much ammo.

Heh... if the Q-10 has too much speed, I'd better stay in my N-1! I can barely keep her slow enough. Interesting about the guns though. I never thought extra guns would add enough weight to really effect performace. .30 cals are fairly ineffective then? And why not against 109s?

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 03:07 PM
ob_swe wrote:
- Your wify seems to be a sharpshooter! That was a
- clean PK .(= Pilot Kill) I Like saying smart things
- too, and then my wife aims and fires a short burst
- and my screen goes black.
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Yes, after the kill shot my slow death sounding like;

When the.....
What the.....
How the.....

Ugh..... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

We're looking into options to liquidate that debt.
How much do you think I can get for my arm?

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif




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XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 03:11 PM
BpGemini wrote:
--
- We're looking into options to liquidate that debt.
- How much do you think I can get for my arm?

I'll give you my wife for it!

Just let me know ......

"We make war that we may live in peace."

Aristotle

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 03:24 PM
Blind-SC- wrote:
-
- Korolov wrote:
-- Biggest problem I get with the P-39: too much speed!
-- Q-10 model mind you, but you'll want to keep the
-- throttle at 80% and save the next 40% as your "panic
-- button". Also keeps the engine cool. I recommend
-- using the Q-10 model exclusively because the N-1s 30
-- cals are basically extra weight against anything but
-- 109s. Q-1 might be a good compromise, but the 50 cal
-- gunpods don't have much ammo.
-
- Heh... if the Q-10 has too much speed, I'd better
- stay in my N-1! I can barely keep her slow enough.
- Interesting about the guns though. I never thought
- extra guns would add enough weight to really effect
- performace. .30 cals are fairly ineffective then?
- And why not against 109s?


I like the N1 and the Q1 the best. I rarely fly the Q10.
If you know what you're up against then you can chose the best version for the task.
For example;
N1: Bomber intercept (Including IL-2s and P-47s), Early year and/or sluggish fighters (most FW-190s).
Q1: In between.
Q10: Yak-3s, La-7s

I prefer the N1 versus just about everything and the Q1 against the late war aircraft (Yak3, La-7).

I find that the added weight from the extra guns on the P-39 N1 is like the fuel I mentioned. I find 50% fuel with extra ammo selected on the N1 is just about right for me. For others it might be 25% fuel to make up for the added weight of the extra guns and ammo.

I find the Machine Guns to be very effective as long as you don't expect too much. If you expect to take everything down with your MGs then you may end up disappointed. Using them to wear the bogey down (put holes in his wings, create fuel leak, ect.) is plenty enough effectiveness. Concentrate on learning the 37mm for your kills.



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XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 03:26 PM
rhett69 wrote:
-
- BpGemini wrote:
---
-- We're looking into options to liquidate that debt.
-- How much do you think I can get for my arm?
-
-
- I'll give you my wife for it!
-
- Just let me know ......



Oh no you're not making off with my arm that easily buddy!

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XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 04:05 PM
BpGemini wrote:
- I find that the added weight from the extra guns on
- the P-39 N1 is like the fuel I mentioned. I find 50%
- fuel with extra ammo selected on the N1 is just
- about right for me. For others it might be 25% fuel
- to make up for the added weight of the extra guns
- and ammo.

And I bet even 25% fuel lasts a decent amount of time too, no? On a DF server, have you ever stayed alive long enough to run out at 25%? And let's say you get a few kills... what do you do then? Do you need to land to get some points or something? Not that I really care about points, but I'm curious.

- I find the Machine Guns to be very effective as long
- as you don't expect too much.

Yeah, just nip at him, slowing him down...

michapma
07-25-2003, 04:20 PM
Blind-SC- wrote:
- I know this is an
- E-Fighter, but

So are all fighters. All fighter aircraft use energy tactics.

As far as ground attack, the P-39 is like a watered-down FW 190. It is a fighter that can carry a bomb and has good armament for hitting soft-skinned vehicles—it can even take out aircraft and light tanks on the ground with the cannon. It keeps its energy better than the FW and you should use a lot of vertical maneuvers when making repeating passes. If you know you are going on a ground-attack mission, set your convergence for something more like 200&ndash;300m, for the cannon as well as MGs.

However, the P-39 was not historically a ground-attack aircraft, it was a ground-support aircraft.

Mike

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Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
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XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 05:43 PM
Blind-SC- wrote:
- BpGemini wrote:
-- *Make the deadly stalls your friend. Learn to use
-- them.
-
- You mean use them or escape from them? And, is this
- correct: throttle down, rudder with spin and back
- stick. When slowing, opposite rudder, nose forward
- pick up speed and split. Seems to work well enough
- for me. It's been a while since I've gotten into a
- stall at all, much less one I couldn't recover from.
- Someone mentioned a planned stall to get someone off
- your six once. Not sure what the best method is for
- that.


Yes use them to your benefit. First you have to learn to rarely ever stall. Sounds like you've done that. Now stall only when you want to. An enemy close to your tail feathers can't follow you into a stall. With a lot of practice you'll be able to control the stall in a way that you can pull out of the stall directly on the enemies 6. I made an offline track for someone in the community and one person posted it for download on their squad website. I don't remember who it was. The offline track that I made was kind of cheesy (IMO) since it was against AI BF-109s. An online track is a much better example but they are all too big to be e-mailed to anyone. Not to mention sorting through hours of action to see one little thing would be time consuming. With that said the offline one shows the basic idea behind it even though it's not the same exact maneuver as online.



Blind-SC- wrote:
- BpGemini wrote:
-- *Know which aircraft you can turn fight and which
-- ones you can't.
-
- You wouldn't happen to know of a chart that shows
- who's who in this regard, would you? I've been
- putting together a spreadsheet on some of the AC
- data on the IL2 site, but just out of curiosity.


I could probably make one, but it would only help a little. The best way to know is in the fight. You have to factor in the pilots ability. You wouldn't want to turn fight an I-16 obviously, but I have before simply because the online pilot wasn't very good with the plane. You might think you can turn fight some Yaks, but the pilot may use the plane to it's best ability and force an alternative of tactical choices. With a little practice you'll get a good idea of who you're up against right away. In the beginning it may take a pass or two or three.



Blind-SC- wrote:
- BpGemini wrote:
-- *When turn fighting some Nancy with trim-on-a-heymo
-- tap your combat flaps on/off for a split second at
-- the apex of your turn. This also works fighting
-- against an opponent who has a slight turn advantage.
-
- I almost never use flaps unless I'm trying touch
- down. This is good to know.
- Q: What's a heymo? A Slider? I don't have a slider.


For example; your throttle is most likely attached to a slider. Some Nancy's like to attach trim to their slider so they can make 'bat turns' unrealistically. They never bothered to learn how to REALLY turn fight with their plane so they continue using exploits. The good thing is their easily beatable by the guys whom use real fight tactics because they learn all the variables. The other good thing is that 'bat turns' don't seem to be such a problem in FB as they were in IL-2, at least as far as I know. I don't use trim for those reasons (bat turns) and haven't tested it in FB. (Heymo = remove the 'ey' and replace with 'o' /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif )



Blind-SC- wrote:
- BpGemini wrote:
-- *When you drop on an enemy's 6 use the MG's to wear
-- him down. Use short bursts no longer than a half
-- second. When he's worn down or if you have a clean
-- shot initially use the kill shot (37mm).
-
- But how do I stay there? That's the tricky part for
- me. I tend to get thrown off six easily or
- overshoot. If I come in too fast, I get a snapshot
- and fly on by, if I come in too slow, he splits and
- gets away. I ened to learn how to saddle up and stay
- there.


That's just plain practice. Learning to match someone move for move is a start. That includes matching speeds. After you learn to match and anticipate moves then you can start cutting the angles and countering anticipated moves. Of course this is turn fighting. In B&Z you'll never want to slow down just get better at aiming.


Arrrrgh, our IT guy has been in here working on the internet, so it's been down for the last couple of hours.


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XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 06:07 PM
Blind-SC- wrote:
- And I bet even 25% fuel lasts a decent amount of
- time too, no? On a DF server, have you ever stayed
- alive long enough to run out at 25%? And let's say
- you get a few kills... what do you do then? Do you
- need to land to get some points or something? Not
- that I really care about points, but I'm curious.


I've never run out on a short Dog Fight map unless I have a fuel leak. You'll tend to either run out of ammo or die before you run out of fuel. I like 50% for the added stability in the gun platform.

After you've fought for a while you can land at your leisure, whether it's to rearm or collect points for any kills. Then you just hit refly and you're ready to go again.


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XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 06:24 PM
Damn, Gem... you're like a fountain of P-39 knowledge. Thanks! Are there a lot of BP's flying the Cobra?

BpGemini wrote:
- For example; your throttle is most likely attached
- to a slider. Some Nancy's like to attach trim to
- their slider so they can make 'bat turns'
- unrealistically.

I see what you mean. Well, I use a TM Afterburner II with my throttle on my throttle http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and I have no slider. I don't know how to do a bat turn and I don't think I want to!

-- But how do I stay there? That's the tricky part for
-- me.
-
- That's just plain practice. Learning to match
- someone move for move is a start. That includes
- matching speeds. After you learn to match and
- anticipate moves then you can start cutting the
- angles and countering anticipated moves. Of course
- this is turn fighting. In B&Z you'll never want to
- slow down just get better at aiming.

Gotcha... I'm thinking I may go on some servers and just try to tail people without firing, jsut to make them crazy and see how long I stay on their ***. Maybe even spray some lead across the bow to keep 'em jumping >8)

- Arrrrgh, our IT guy has been in here working on the
- internet, so it's been down for the last couple of
- hours.

I'm an IT guy. In case you didn't know... we're all inherently evil >B)

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 07:58 PM
Blind-SC- wrote:
- Damn, Gem... you're like a fountain of P-39
- knowledge. Thanks! Are there a lot of BP's flying
- the Cobra?


You're welcome.
Off the top of my head, the dedicated P-39 Pig Pilots are;
SmokeJaguar
Hittson (Hitts)
Junk
Moscow
Volski
Most likely I've forgot a few.
Some of these guys are dedicated to more than one bird. I know that SmokeJaguar, Hittson, and myself have all been dedicated to the P-39 since early on in the original IL-2. Junk has really been getting addicted to her as of late and Moscow and Volski use to fly her quite a bit in the original but since have possiblly found other birds to fly.



Blind-SC- wrote:
- I'm an IT guy. In case you didn't know... we're all
- inherently evil >B)


Our IT guy is pretty cool. He holds the immense weight and burden of having the masses angry at him on days like this.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



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