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norton1974
03-28-2009, 03:13 PM
Usually if i bounce someone online and miss it takes about 15 seconds for the e/a to turn the tables on me. so i set up the qmb with 4 unarmed e/a at ace level and practice staying behind and gunnery at the same time.
Is this the best way to practice? or is there a better way?
I also try shoting down my wingman too after telling him to rejoin.
I am new to online and i was suprised at how bad i was after flying offine for a couple years. I never learned the hard evasive tactics that you guys are so good at.
Spits vs 109s is the only server ive flown on so far as i fly either 109 or spit.
Thanks for any advice!

TS_Sancho
03-28-2009, 03:42 PM
Hey Norton, If you havent already download and read this

http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/inpursuit.pdf (http://web.comhem.se/%7Eu85627360/inpursuit.pdf)

Also try Darts tutorials, he is a great teacher and really knows his stuff

http://www.darts-page.com/

See you in Spits/109's

Xiolablu3
03-28-2009, 03:52 PM
HI Norton, you have really jumped in right at the deep end!

Spits vs 109's has the very hardest settings of any online server, and also its pilots have been practicing for years and years.

Perhaps try a server with easier settings at first, such as Skies of Valour, Ukdedicated2, or even SKies of Fire and UKded1 if you are finding things a bit tough at first.

Dont be surprised that you didnt do very well flying on Sv109's for the very first time.

norton1974
03-28-2009, 04:33 PM
I have read in pursuit and all the other guides.
I like the full real settings even though it makes the learning curve tougher. And youre right about the experienced pilots at spits vs 109s there are some good ones there.

Xiolablu3
03-28-2009, 04:45 PM
Then get yourself on teamspeak so that you can communicate with your team, that will help you a lot.

norton1974
03-28-2009, 04:59 PM
Ok i will try to get in ts next time i play.

danjama
03-28-2009, 05:24 PM
Hello mate, the best advice i can offer is practice practice practice! Forget about QMB (unless its for gunnery practice). Also, i would recommend NOT PARTICIPATING in close in dogfights at all. Bounce your enemy, and before they can even encounter, recover some altitude.

Remember, altitude>energy>life.

TS is important, but half the time nobody wants to help you anyway. So just keep throwing yourself into the deepend and practice online alot. One day you will find you have got pretty good without even realising it.

Also have a good method of tracking your enemy. An enemy you cant see is the most dangerous.

norton1974
03-28-2009, 07:45 PM
Ive had Track ir for about a year now and although i lose sight of the e/a sometimes when it blends in with ground objects i rarely get taken by surprise.
There was an A20 getting attacked by a 109 so i took after the 109, i closed to firing range, about 200 meters or so, i fired and only did minor damage. I had small E advantage by this time and felt if i ran he would catch me so i tried to follow his turns so as to finish the job, big mistake on my part, i was in a spitfire by the way.
This is the type situation where the tactics ive used offine dont work online at all, i would just break off if i were offline.

TgD Thunderbolt56
03-28-2009, 08:19 PM
The advice you've been given is sound. TrackIR and TS are practically requirements for online...especially if you're new to the full real online crowd.

You need to also have zoom view, wide view and normal view mapped for quick use while in battle. Not requirements, but a good idea nonetheless.

Also, until you get good at getting accurate strikes on your initial bounce, you should apply the assassin's mantra: sneak in close, hit hard and lethally and zoom back up to reassess. If you miss...dive out and run to safety. Whether that's to a nearby friendly that KNOWS you're coming, friendly turf, or all the way to your base...it doesn't matter.

The smooth moves of a deadly aerial online acrobat will only come with experience.

So, to reiterate:

1. Get on teamspeak and make your presence known, but ALWAYS be as brief as possible giving only relevant information. You can read on the whole brevity code here: http://simhq.com/_air/air_008a.html If there are more than two people on, blabbermouths quickly become intolerable.

2. Try to fly with someone (preferably someone you're on comms with) as much as possible.

3. Be prepared to hit "refly" early and often and don't let it get to you. Everyone started the same way.



Easy enough...right? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

jayhall0315
03-29-2009, 12:31 AM
As much as I respect some of the other guy's advice here (and I did what they suggest too when I started with HL as well) I would have to respectfully disagree. Learning how to come in hot, strike, bounce someone and then dive away is all well and good but many times it will not be enough (yes, even in a team setting).

You must still know how to handle your own aircraft up close and personal, one on one, mano e mano, for several minutes if need be with a single or multiple enemy.

Much like Morpheus in the Matrix movie when he offered the red or blue pills and said, "I cannot explain the Matrix in full detail, you must see it for yourself". No one can 'explain' dogfighting to you. The only way to 'get it' is to go out and get your a$$ whipped .... alot. And having teamates nearby who can swoop in and help to save it, will only prolong the learning process that much longer, as paradoxically as it sounds.

To get good at defending yourself against enemies, especially good ones, you need to do one thing:

Face a boatload of bad *** pilots up close and personal and watch the amazing tactics and exhibitions of 3D thought that they display.

Only when you have thoroughly faced dozens of top pilots and have seen high level tactics up close and in your face, can you get an idea of what to do to negate or even take the advantage when you see those tactics again.

The critical question then becomes, Who are the 'good ones' and where do I go to meet them ?

There is currently a new organization within the Hyperlobby community who are attempting to classify and list 'Master' level fliers. This is primarily being done so that guys like yourself will have some folks to seek out to help train them for up close dogfighting as you are inquiring about. You can find the Master's List at the Mission 4 Today website. You will find two or three Masters on that list that despite very high levels of combat ability, can and do enjoy helping new guys. Seek them out and they will teach you much like Yoda and Luke. Also, check out the flier [^]X32Wright on Hyperlobby as he is a good starting point and has a wealth of knowledge and loves to converse with and help new guys.

Hope this helps ya - Jay

Viper2005_
03-29-2009, 01:03 AM
The best advice I can give is "Don't miss!".

Dogfights are what happen when bounces fail.

Learning to dogfight is a bit like learning how to fall off a bike without hurting yourself. Whilst it's a nice skill to have, it's better not to fall off in the first place.

Of course, if you're on the wrong end of the bounce then a dogfight is "less bad" than being shot down. But if you had good SA then you wouldn't have been bounced in the first place, so the above argument still applies.

As for tactics, IME the concept of tactics in a fight is slightly optimistic.

When you've got lots of space then you can be genuinely tactical, or even strategic.

When you get into a multi-bandit furball then tactics go out of the window because you don't have enough SA to even fully understand the situation, let alone to then plan what you're going to do next.

Therefore, the "tactics" of the furball come down to a rather conservative "bluffer's guide". You end up spending about 3/4 of your time with your head behind you getting ready to go defensive - which is why the historical strike rate in furballs has always been much much lower than in clean bounces.

Yet another reason to avoid dogfighting.

Of course, if you see a nice big furball then you can always blast through it for an opportunistic kill; just don't waste your energy trying too hard!

jayhall0315
03-29-2009, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:

.... Dogfights are what happen when bounces fail. ....



Yes I would agree with this as pertains to full real (and real life as well), which is what you seem to want to try your hand at Norton. Just remember on anything less than full real, the idea of bounce is nullified especially on open cockpit servers with icons that point the direction to approaching enemies. No such thing as bounce there, so its all dogfighting.

Viper2005_
03-29-2009, 03:11 AM
I agree up to a point.

With the little arrows it's rather harder to make a clean bounce, but they still happen because people still run out of SA eventually - it just tends to take a more complex scenario to make it happen.

Equally, when you do get into a dogfight with the little arrows in play it tends to be somewhat different from the sort of dogfights you see in a full switch server.

It tends to take place at lower altitude, with lower energy and with far less energetic conservatism. People rarely attempt to disengage, even in the rare instances when they have the energy to do so.

You also tend to find that the vast majority of people are flying with light fuel loads, since they have no intention of flying home; there's hardly a bomb in sight.

So you see rather more in the way of aircraft performance on display.

The different objectives of the pilots involved means that you see a very different mix of aeroplanes than you would expect on a full switch server.

So really I'd say it's a different game altogether.

It's a good way to learn BFM though. Personally I'm much better at full switch, so my advice tends to be biased towards avoiding all that "TopGun" stuff as much as possible, achieving the mission objectives and coming home in time for tea and medals.

rnzoli
03-29-2009, 03:39 AM
Originally posted by norton1974:
I had small E advantage by this time and felt if i ran he would catch me so i tried to follow his turns so as to finish the job, big mistake on my part, i was in a spitfire by the way.
Having only small E advantage is the worst situation, too little to run, too much to follow the other, especially if the other aircraft is lighter than yours (e.g., less fuel on board?).

So my short advice: if you decide to commit to a close up and personal dogfight, you must work hard on the throttle and the rudders also.

You can also post a recorded track about the fight, and we can probably point out exactly the moments, when you lost it. You lose a dogfight not when you get shot down, but when you make the first mistakes.

jamesblonde1979
03-29-2009, 03:43 AM
Not many people would ever consider using the words 'tactics' and 'dogfight' in the same sentence. Dogfights are what happen when tactics fail.

Dogfights come down to one thing, opportunism. You need to be able to assess a lot of factors and from within that mess take your best option.

My tips for the unfortunate pilot who finds himself in a furbal would be:

Categorize your threats and focus your situational awareness on those threats that have the highest priority. ie, instead of looking for targets try not to become one.

DONT FLY STRAIGHT AND LEVEL FOR MORE THAN 10 SECONDS

Don't fixate on any one enemy. Line up and take a shot if you can then get out. ONE BURST ONLY

Never follow an enemy down.

If you think your tail is clear then CHECK IT AGAIN.

Sorry I cant tell you any magic dodges or moves because you will have to come up with those on the spot. Dogfighting is like being in a free-way pile up, you just do the best you can.

norton1974
03-29-2009, 10:21 AM
I have learned a lot from getting shot down, i can recognise a very skilled pilot a lot sooner now than when in started. I also recognise a pilot who is at my skill level.
I do try not to fire unless the e/a fills my gun sight, and i usually do hit but dont always do enough damage.
I am surprised at how many people dive down and then pull the throttle back to stay behind me, i now they are close when i can hear their engine barely turning.

megalopsuche
03-29-2009, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by norton1974:
I like the full real settings even though it makes the learning curve tougher.

Yes, but just because it's called "full real" doesn't mean it best approximates real aerial combat. Any server with some kind of icons will do a better job at approximating the visual capability of a real pilot.

Second, a lot of the advice you're receiving here is only good for flying timidly and never learning to actually fight. If you want to be good at air combat, I mean "how did he do that???" good, then you will have to put up with dying a lot in order to learn what works and what doesn't. The guys who only attack when at an advantage, who only bounce and then run away when their target resists, typically can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag when things don't go their way.

Jayhall is the one you should listen to:

"Much like Morpheus in the Matrix movie when he offered the red or blue pills and said, "I cannot explain the Matrix in full detail, you must see it for yourself". No one can 'explain' dogfighting to you. The only way to 'get it' is to go out and get your a$$ whipped .... alot. And having teamates nearby who can swoop in and help to save it, will only prolong the learning process that much longer, as paradoxically as it sounds."

Ignore everything else.

rnzoli
03-29-2009, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by norton1974:
I do try not to fire unless the e/a fills my gun sight, and i usually do hit but dont always do enough damage. You should fire from your convergence range. If you get much closer than your convergence, especially with wing-mounted guns!, you might nicely "surround" your target without doing any serious damage. I have just seen a nice photo of a P-40 gun test - the photo is taken about 50 meters from the nose of the aircraft and the tracers all go wide of course, no harm to the camera. This is because the convergence point is way behind the camera.

rnzoli
03-29-2009, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
Any server with some kind of icons will do a better job at approximating the visual capability of a real pilot. This horse has been beaten to death to gazillion times, and this is not true. Icons do compensate for monitor resolution, etc., but they also overcompensate. So the question is whether you want to err on this side or that side of the simulation. If you don't agree, just think about the numerous friendly fire incidents in the memoirs, which do never happen if you have any kind of icons on.

megalopsuche
03-29-2009, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by megalopsuche:
Any server with some kind of icons will do a better job at approximating the visual capability of a real pilot. This horse has been beaten to death to gazillion times, and this is not true. Icons do compensate for monitor resolution, etc., but they also overcompensate. So the question is whether you want to err on this side or that side of the simulation. If you don't agree, just think about the numerous friendly fire incidents in the memoirs, which do never happen if you have any kind of icons on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't say they were perfect, I said they were approximate, i.e. having icons is closer to reality than no icons. Yes, you miss out on friendly fire incidents and mis-identification, but you gain the ability to see an aircraft that is only 1.5km away. The latter is far more important for simulating air-combat.

The only dead-horse beating is done by those who say no-icons is more realistic. They are wrong and refuse to admit it because they are scared of their opponents being able to see them before they dive in at 400mph, miss their attack, and then run away.

rnzoli
03-29-2009, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by megalopsuche:
Any server with some kind of icons will do a better job at approximating the visual capability of a real pilot. This horse has been beaten to death to gazillion times, and this is not true. Icons do compensate for monitor resolution, etc., but they also overcompensate. So the question is whether you want to err on this side or that side of the simulation. If you don't agree, just think about the numerous friendly fire incidents in the memoirs, which do never happen if you have any kind of icons on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't say they were perfect, I said they approximate, i.e. having icons is closer to reality than no icons. Yes, you miss out on friendly fire incidents and mis-identification, but you gain the ability to see an aircraft that is only 1.5km away. The latter is far more important for simulating air-combat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Again, it depends on what aspect you want to put the emphasis on. For example, I can put emphasis on seeing what the guncams recorded in real life. In which guncam footage do you see floating letters above the aircraft? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The only dead-horse beating is done by those who say no-icons is more realistic. Continue beating this horse my friend, again it depends on what aspect of realism you want to put your emphasis on. Don't assume that your own selection is the best, there are different views. One thing is for 100% sure: without icons, it is more difficult, and you need to double-check friend or foe just like real pilots had to do.

They are wrong and refuse to admit it because they are scared of their opponents being able to see them before they dive in at 400mph, miss their attack, and then run away. Funny, lot of real pilots speak about being bounced so suddenly, they could hardly evade. Clostermann for example. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If you want to debate this further open a new thread about this, I just wanted to point out here, that this is a controvertial issue, therefore no such simple conclusion can be made what you wrote. In your opinion yes, but there are plenty of different opinions on this subject, nothing to do with "being scared" or anything like this.

Xiolablu3
03-29-2009, 12:13 PM
Listen to Rnzoli, he is wise http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

norton1974
03-29-2009, 12:18 PM
My preference is no icons i like trying to manage the dots and identify the planes.

Aaron_GT
03-29-2009, 12:25 PM
The downside of no icons is that it is probably harder to identify aircraft than it was in real life as the resolution of monitors is relatively poor. On the other hand icons probably err in the other direction. There's probably no ideal solution until we all have HDTV standard stereo goggles and 360 head tracking.

Back when I was in a squadron we tried to get round problems with identifying squadmates in no icon servers by using colour coded tails and wingtips. In theory you should use serial numbers but that assumes you always pick the same location in a coop mission line up, which might be fairer, but hard to see on a video screen in combat.

TS_Sancho
03-29-2009, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by norton1974:
My preference is no icons i like trying to manage the dots and identify the planes.

With practice you will be amazed how well you can differentiate between friend and foe without icons.Situational awareness is the key.I dont care for even limited icons as 90% of the time I already have an idea whether the bogie is friend or foe and the cartoonish icons really distract from the immersion of the game.
A good fighter pilot is a hunter and an assassin pure and simple. The idea that you need to purposley enter into angles fights rather than pursuing solid energy tactics is silly. Trust me, a long time before you get any good at "the bounce" you will have made every mistake in the book and will have plenty of experience at turning contests as a result. A succesfull mission in the full switch servers is the one where you bring your plane home in one piece first and foremost. Purposley engaging the enemy when you are a disadvantage just to get the practice of getting shot down doesnt do anything to enhance your piloting skills other than getting really good at hitting the refly button.
I have to second with Xiolablu, on this issue Rnzoli and Viper are spot on. Oswald Boelcke's golden rules apply just as much to success in this sim as they did at the very beginning of air combat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicta_Boelcke

Stiletto-
03-29-2009, 01:47 PM
If you have a large monitor and have the gpu power to run at above HD resolutions, ID'ing planes isnt really a problem.. You can always identify planes before those "limited icons" pop up on servers that have that, making them totally useless.

I would say the biggest way to identify planes regaurdless of what your hardware setup is, is by colors.. If you are on a server where skin downloads are turned off, just press S to see what kind of planes are flying on the server and know what the default skin colors are. Flying an olive drab La5-FN? You know if it has a yellow under the nose and on the tail and the rest is green and gray, its probably going to be a BF-109 G6 Late.

Some aircraft you can't miss regaurdless of color.. Planes like the P-38 with its twin engines and booms stand out like there is a spotlight on them.

TX-EcoDragon
03-29-2009, 06:23 PM
For the most part I think you've gotten sound advice.

Just remember that no matter the settings, the aircraft you fly, or the style of combat you employ that there can be no shortcuts. . .you will need to practice, and you may as well practice in the style in which you prefer to fly.

On a full switch server with lots of pilots flying, especially in aircraft with lots of blind spots, a wingman is a wise idea. If you can find some experienced pilots to help you learn the ropes, even one training session will go a long way to help instill effective tactics.

Also remember that being surrounded by 30 aircraft, keeping track of your wingman and ensuring that heís never threatened (and he is ideally doing the same for you) is surely one of the hardest things to do. This is part of the reason this sim is rewarding to pilots who have flown it for so many years. . .there is always room for improvement, and always something new to learn.

Feel free to stop by www.txsquadron.com (http://www.txsquadron.com) or the TX-OC3 dedicated servers and weíll be happy to help get you squared away. You can also find many TUSA and TX members on Spits vs 109s coms. . .most any of them will be happy to help. In any case, donít be shy, let people know you are new and looking for a wingman and Iím sure youíll get one, just keep in mind that public coms in a big dogfight server isn't the best place to get instruction . . .in those instances coms brevity is the order of the day, so don't mistake that for people being unfriendly.

megalopsuche
03-29-2009, 06:32 PM
Sure, values differ from person to person, and so by definition icons are not going to satisfy everyone. But, my claim already had a relativistic clause embedded in it, which you ignored: I said that icons are best for simulating *air-combat.* If you don't like air-combat, i.e. you like the anonymity of no-icons and don't like your opponents to put up resistance, then you will find that no-icons fulfill your values better.

megalopsuche
03-29-2009, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
Purposley engaging the enemy when you are a disadvantage just to get the practice of getting shot down doesnt do anything to enhance your piloting skills other than getting really good at hitting the refly button.


You could not be more wrong. This is terrible advice. Some of the best virtual pilots I have ever seen have K/D ratios of around .75-2.5 because they consistently test themselves in very tough situations. In the past, I've had K/D ratios of 15:1 or more, but have been unable to beat guys in a fair fight who have K/D ratios that you would probably laugh at.

ImMoreBetter
03-29-2009, 08:12 PM
Yes, but just because it's called "full real" doesn't mean it best approximates real aerial combat. Any server with some kind of icons will do a better job at approximating the visual capability of a real pilot.

The debate over icons vs no icons is probably as old as the game itself.

I respectfully disagree with this. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif

I do agree that values are the main factor. Some people fly to fight, others fly for flight.

Now, I have only recently 'dedicated' myself to closed cockpit, no icon servers.
I have not had any problem keeping track of my enemy in a dogfight. I use a hatswitch, I'm one of those poor souls that can't get used to a TrackIR. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Nor have I had a problem seeing and identifying enemies before losing any chance to react. In fact, I've been caught off guard less than I ever had with icons on.
Also, I never have misjudged my enemies direction of travel, or practical differences in closing or relative speed.
Finally, I have never misidentified an aircraft as enemy or friendly. I may have second guessed myself a few times, but I was fairly confident in my initial decision. A second look confirmed that I was right.

I am not saying your opinion is wrong.
I do believe that the points you made are legitimate.

What I am saying, is that I don't think the disadvantages of no icons are as great as they seem on paper. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I advocate that newbies should start with icons on, it is much easier to learn the concepts of a dogfight. Build up your understanding and basic skills first. Move on to the no icon servers later, where critical pieces of information about the fight must be figured out on your own.


Originally posted by megalopsuche:
Second, a lot of the advice you're receiving here is only good for flying timidly and never learning to actually fight. If you want to be good at air combat, I mean "how did he do that???" good, then you will have to put up with dying a lot in order to learn what works and what doesn't. The guys who only attack when at an advantage, who only bounce and then run away when their target resists, typically can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag when things don't go their way.

I definitely agree with this, however.

We do have the leisurely advantage of a refly button. As far as I know, no one has ever been ungrateful about it.

No one will ever learn without stepping outside of their safety box.

K_Freddie
03-30-2009, 12:22 AM
Back to the original topic..
norton1974:
The way I learn't to DF real close is first of all get to know my favourite plane - FW190. This meant flying it 99.999999% of the time, or whenever a map allowed it.

To get to know this plane I'd (offline at 100% settings) take it lo-n-slo, and with no enemies, I'd practice all sorts of crazy things. At first I crashed a lot, but as I got to know the plane, I started to do things they'd only dream about, and survive.

Then the next trick was to do offline (4 vs 1) against 'ace AI' planes like the Yak3, Spits, P51s and the rest. After this it was down to serious online flying - a new learning curve, but I was 'well established' to either win or survive.

After all this Tactics must be developed, and only now, does reading all those books start to help.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

jamesblonde1979
03-30-2009, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by TS_Sancho:

A good fighter pilot is a hunter and an assassin pure and simple.

+1

To strike without exposing oneself to danger.

rnzoli
03-30-2009, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
But, my claim already had a relativistic clause embedded in it, which you ignored: I said that icons are best for simulating *air-combat.* If you don't like air-combat, Your statement monopolizes the term "air-combat". What do you think so many people do on full switch servers if not "air combat" - sight-seeing tours or what? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Or did you want to say "air-quake"? (Oh no, this was maliciious, sorry.)

Again, let's leave this subject to rest, if you think you were misunderstood, just edit your original post.

megalopsuche
03-30-2009, 09:15 AM
No, I dislike the "air-quake" servers, mostly because it's an aircraft mono-culture and I enjoy the historical matchups the sim has to offer. Some of the more reputable servers are not immune from bad behavior either, e.g. shoulder shooting, kill stealing, guys who taxi onto the runway as you're about to touch down, etc. But the air-quake guys should not be totally despised because they appreciate fighting for the sake of fighting, and nothing else. That's what a lot of the non-quakers seem to have lost... they think their K/D ratio actually measures progress or skill; they do not engage co-altitude bandits because they are more concerned with landing than seeing if they can out-fly the other guy. You see, I'm not saying that everyone should climb into 5 or 6 high bandits, that would be dumb and wouldn't teach you much. The point will always be to kill the other guy and not let him kill you, but too many weight this principle out of balance against learning ACM, *aggressive* BnZ tactics, and how to force an overshoot.

If I'm flying a historically approximate scenario with mission objectives, in a squad, and against others who are doing the same, then I fly to live. Re-enactment can be a lot of fun and is probably the pinnacle of online play for most of us. But behaving like it's a re-enactment in a laissez-faire arena environment defeats the whole point of a more relaxed place for combat.

Xiolablu3
03-30-2009, 04:15 PM
I understand your points, mega, but isnt that precisely the kind of play that makes things unrealistic?

I mean not valuing your online 'life' very much and wading into a fight regardless?

Isn't that precisly what a real pilot would NOT do? A real pilot would think nothing of bugging out if nothing is at stake except his aircraft/life and he felt he was in a bad position.

Isnt what you have described is pretty unrealistic behaviour. (dogfighting the enemy regardless).

WHat do you do when flying the Fw190? Do you still enter dogfights with most any enemies that you encounter? Surely not....

norton1974
03-30-2009, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
Back to the original topic..
norton1974:
The way I learn't to DF real close is first of all get to know my favourite plane - FW190. This meant flying it 99.999999% of the time, or whenever a map allowed it.

To get to know this plane I'd (offline at 100% settings) take it lo-n-slo, and with no enemies, I'd practice all sorts of crazy things. At first I crashed a lot, but as I got to know the plane, I started to do things they'd only dream about, and survive.

Then the next trick was to do offline (4 vs 1) against 'ace AI' planes like the Yak3, Spits, P51s and the rest. After this it was down to serious online flying - a new learning curve, but I was 'well established' to either win or survive.

After all this Tactics must be developed, and only now, does reading all those books start to help.
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this is very helpfull, thanks, i do primally fly the 109 so will stay with it. I will try the low and slow flying.
The 4 vs 1 ai ace is very tough for me still, how do most of you fare in this scenario? I can usauly get one or two before they get me.
I was wondering when all the books and tactics ive read were going to translate into success.

megalopsuche
03-30-2009, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
WHat do you do when flying the Fw190? Do you still enter dogfights with most any enemies that you encounter? Surely not....

If I can get the bandit isolated from his friends, I will fight co-altitude or from a disadvantage in the 190 (though I'm only mediocre in it), even against Spitfires. Those times that I shoot down a Spitfire that started with an advantage are "sweeter than honey." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you try it, you will realize that a huge portion of virtual pilots have no notion of throttle management, and it's quite easy to force them to overshoot for a snap shot opportunity. Half of this is surprise: people don't expect you to fight in a 190 and make more mistakes than they would attacking a plane with a good furballing reputation. But you will never shoot down a Spitfire from a position of disadvantage until you try it.

I agree that this approach is not "realistic," it accepts virtual death and nearly asks for it. But what I learned is that the best pilots I've ever encountered died a lot, didn't sweat dying, and could beat the pants off someone who typically did their best to maintain a good K/D ratio...even from a position of disadvantage and in a high wingloading aircraft.

I would only rate myself as an "above average" virtual pilot. Even though I can maintain an impressive K/D ratio with smart flying, I've had my butt handed to me too many times to maintain any illusions about my true ability. It was quite humbling to see that the guy I couldn't beat in a fair fight had a K/D ratio of .75, while there were plenty of pilots with 5:1 ratios that I could beat easily. That was a light-bulb moment, no doubt about it.

I hope this sheds light on my perspective. Ultimately, having fun is more important than anything... no matter what anyone tells you. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

K_Freddie
03-31-2009, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by norton1974:
The 4 vs 1 ai ace is very tough for me still, how do most of you fare in this scenario? I can usauly get one or two before they get me.

Nail them all every time.
IF you set 1 single ace plane in four flights, you'll have equivalent to 4 individual AI's. This setup helps you build your situational awareness (SA) and also 'twists your head off your shoulders'.

Doing the lo-n-slo thing, teaches you to fly your plane on the edge without making mistakes. If you make a mistake you 'touch the ground' very quickly.

As an example, I learn't to fly the FW190 in the stall zone, purely with rudder only. In this particular zone rudder is more effective (and stable) than aerolons. Unless your opponent has trained himself the same way he will find it extremely difficult to follow you (even in a YAK3), and most will stall out.

Every a/c has their sweet zones, and the ME109 and FW190 have incredible stability when lo-n-slo. Anybody can fly fast, but it takes a bit of practise to 'slow it up a bit'
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megalopsuche
03-31-2009, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by norton1974:
The 4 vs 1 ai ace is very tough for me still, how do most of you fare in this scenario? I can usauly get one or two before they get me.

Nail them all every time.
IF you set 1 single ace plane in four flights, you'll have equivalent to 4 individual AI's. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have always had the 4 Ace AI in the same flight, but now that you mention it having them in different flights would be better. They tend to fly "welded wing" otherwise and not use their full potential; AI mod is no help here.

Whether or not I can kill all 4 depends on the aircraft types, usually. If I put the AI in something like the P-51 or P-38, I can kill two or three and end up chasing the last one forever in a spiral climb up to 9km. If I only get 2 before they get into rocket-assisted spiral climb mode, then I eventually take a fuel hit or some other kind of damage avoiding their BnZ attacks. If the AI are A6M5s, F6Fs, Spit Vs or something comparable i.e. slow, then I can often get them all.

Xiolablu3
04-02-2009, 08:06 AM
4x Spitfire VIII or IX vs any Fw190A is extrememly difficult for me.


I can handle 18 boost Spit IX's online in a Anton, if I use the right tactic, but not 4xAce 18 boost Spit IX's. They just dont give up the chase like human pilots those AI!

norton1974
04-02-2009, 09:31 AM
I am having some luck with 109f4 vs 2 vet spitvb set as two flights but against 4 i am still having problems.

For all the AI problems they do coordinate well and leave me very little time to set up shots.

K_Freddie
04-02-2009, 11:04 AM
It takes a bit of time, but the idea is to take snap shots, and not linger on one target for more than about 5 seconds.

Your objective is to avoid been hit, and take the snap-shots whenever the opportunity arises. After a few circles, loops, etc... large gaps will start to appear in their attacks (The same happens with human pilots), and you can use these gaps to then concentrate on the nearest victim.

idonno
04-02-2009, 02:57 PM
The best advise has yet to be given, and that is to get some one-on-one training from someone who has been doing this for a while.

I offer my help.

K_Freddie
04-02-2009, 04:29 PM
I went through my IL2 online movies, and put this lot together.
I enjoy 'flying' on the edge, so to speak, and when a 'comrade' made a movie, seen in the first section of this clip, I was intrigued how the P47 pulled off this move.
Trusting Olegs modelling and 'AI perfection', so began my quest to emulate it. I started with the methods i described in my previous posts, and came very close to 'nirvana'.

The result of all my 'self-training' is shown in the last 3 sections on this On the edge (16MB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/SnapIt.avi) clip
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norton1974
04-04-2009, 02:40 PM
I had my best results last nite online. After practicing with all of the advice you have given me.

I was able to shoot down 2 stukas and 3 109s.That was the good news, the bad news is that i also got my first friendly kill, and stole a kill also. I didnt actually shot the friendly aircraft but as we passed he must have just hit me as i didnt even now until later.

I felt bad about stealing the kill, i was watching a p39 tangle with a 109 and i was trying to follow the p39 and cover him when he broke off the 109, the 109 flew right thru my gunsite and i fired, some hits on the 109 and then i saw the pilot was already bailed out. So i was credited with the kill.

So i had my best nite and also my worst nite at the same time. I will see how i do tonight as ive noticed that saturday nites are tough.

Also want to say that getting kills is not how i judge weather im improving, but rather my overall ability to judge situations and opponents positions.

rnzoli
04-05-2009, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by norton1974:
Also want to say that getting kills is not how i judge weather im improving, but rather my overall ability to judge situations and opponents positions. Which is really wise. Many people experience big ups and downs in the own ability, but this is because they think once they get good kills in a row, it should stay that way.

But in reality, your opponents will vary to a great degree. There will always be times when you go againt (relatively) rookies and suddenly aces.

So I agree with you, the most important thing is to understand the entire combat situation and making the right decisions. My toughest decisions are about disengaging, or not engaging at all, and working on better opportunities instead (within the possibilities of the mission goals). Kill scores depend on the opportunities, but understanding what you're doing and why is only up to you! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif