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View Full Version : A question about gunsights, in-game and in real life.



Woke_Up_Dead
07-06-2009, 06:45 PM
What are the advantages of a reflector sight over an older ring and bead sight? The see-through reflector sight won't obscure the target like the metal ring and/or bead will, but there have to be more advantages than just that. I'm talking about the reflector sights found in 99% of the planes in the game, not the gyro sights that the late-war Mustangs have.

Also, most of the reflector sights in game have some sort or knob or dial right next to them, but their use is not modeled in-game (unless there is some control that I am not aware of and have not assigned to a key). What would those dials do in real life?

danjama
07-06-2009, 06:50 PM
I believe the reflectors could be setup for different size targets http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

BillSwagger
07-06-2009, 06:55 PM
Their main advantage was it lets the pilot know where the site is even if their head isn't exactly aligned with it. In order to get a proper bead, they need to look at the appropriate angle to see the entire site. That way they would know that when looking through the site the bead should go where the site is aimed.
On older ring and bead sight, if your head wasnt exactly aligned where you first calibrated it, then your shot could be off.

Those knobs are probably used for calibration, but thats something we don't need to toy with in the game.

TinyTim
07-06-2009, 06:55 PM
Firstly, the focus of the aiming pipper in a real gunsight is in an infinity. This means that the pilot doesn't need to refocus from the sight to target (like he needs to do with ring and bead - if you look at the target, the ring/bead will be blurry, and vice versa. Not so with reflector sight). This is obviously absent from the game as it can't be modelled (focus is in the same plane, as everything, the sight and the target, is in the plane of the monitor).

Secondly, with ring and bead, you need to position your eye into a specific spot to align it with ring and bead. This is not needed with reflector sight - you have an inch or two (the width of the sight really) of freedom of movement, and the pipper will stay in the same direction. (you can see this nicely with 3 DOF.)

Thirdly, sight is illuminated which can be of great help in certain visual circumstances (night etc...).

I'm sure experts around here will explain it better.

WTE_Galway
07-06-2009, 07:10 PM
even if your head is wobbling about the cross hairs stay on target.

here is a video ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blem3FlkaMc

Xiolablu3
07-07-2009, 02:23 PM
Whereever you head is, with a reflector sight your guns ar on target.

With a metal ring sight if you head is not dead straight then the guns are not sighted properly.

I find gunsights facsinating.

A large increase in accuracy was attained by using the Ferranti Gyro Gunsight (K14 in US use) once it was in large scale service.

The earlier mk1 model was not so succesful as the pilot had to look through a 'tube' which made it difficult to use.

However with the MkII version where there was no tube/scope, great accuracy was attained. You only have to read reports from the pilots using them to see how useful they were.

STENKA_69.GIAP
07-08-2009, 04:46 AM
most of the reflector sights in game have some sort or knob or dial right next to them, but their use is not modeled in-game (unless there is some control that I am not aware of and have not assigned to a key). What would those dials do in real life?

You could normaly adjust the brightness of the reflector. As conditions are darker outside you reduce the brightness. Some reflector sights also had adjustment to the size which you would put in corresponding target wingspan.

SeaFireLIV
07-10-2009, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
even if your head is wobbling about the cross hairs stay on target.

here is a video ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blem3FlkaMc

Excellent demonstration there!

Woke_Up_Dead
07-10-2009, 12:32 PM
Thanks for the replies guys, that is a cool little clip too.

I was initially wondering if there was an advantage to aiming with the gun-sight in cockpit-on mode as opposed to wonder-woman view. But it seems that the real-life advantage of the sight staying on target even when your head moves doesn't really translate in game, since the computer screen is only two-dimensional.

Ba5tard5word
07-10-2009, 01:34 PM
Yeah I think there is something missing because the sights and cockpit are 2D rather than 3D, especially with the German and Japanese sights that are set to the right--I think you would see the whole crosshairs with your right eye but you can't model that in game.

Seems to me the sights are mainly meant to give you a visual reminder of the direction your bullets will go when you're in maneuvers. You also have to use guesses and experience to know where your bullets will go, but you'd need to rely on those even more if you were using fixed sights.

Xiolablu3
07-10-2009, 02:22 PM
This clip shows how the sight stays on target whereever your head is :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXsVg8F91t8&NR=1

DKoor
07-10-2009, 02:57 PM
Interesting clip, thanks for sharing... it is clear that the target isn't at the exact same position all the time... it moves a bit but not much.
I think although somewhat different (fixed head) IL-2 simulates this fantastically.

VF-17_Jolly
07-10-2009, 04:00 PM
Also, most of the reflector sights in game have some sort or knob or dial right next to them, but their use is not modeled in-game (unless there is some control that I am not aware of and have not assigned to a key). What would those dials do in real life

The Dials are used to adjust the ring size of the sight to give you ranging cues, ie if the wings of the figher you are chasing touches the edges of the sight he is at a set range

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/POLISH_PILOT/7.jpg

Woke_Up_Dead
07-10-2009, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by VF-17_Jolly:

The Dials are used to adjust the ring size of the sight to give you ranging ques, ie if the wings of the figher you are chasing touches the edges of the sight he is at a set range

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/POLISH_PILOT/7.jpg

That would be useful to have in the game, too bad it wasn't included except for that gyro sight on the Mustangs.

Waldo.Pepper
07-10-2009, 04:22 PM
This is for the K-14-Gunsight. I extracted this section from a larger manual. Some may like it.

http://rapidshare.com/files/25...14-Gunsight.pdf.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/254351687/K-14-Gunsight.pdf.html)

M_Gunz
07-10-2009, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VF-17_Jolly:

The Dials are used to adjust the ring size of the sight to give you ranging ques, ie if the wings of the figher you are chasing touches the edges of the sight he is at a set range

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/POLISH_PILOT/7.jpg

That would be useful to have in the game, too bad it wasn't included except for that gyro sight on the Mustangs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

P-51 was introduced with AEP, the 3rd generation of IL2 (IL2-FB-AEP) and the average PC was capable of more. But still in the
production-patch-upgrade cycle during FB2.x they did update some of the older models so yes it would have been nice for that too!

We are still lucky to get what we did. Even luckier when SoW arrives. All lucky people here.

Wildnoob
07-10-2009, 06:10 PM
I can't get the K-14 gunsigth to work in IL2 (couldn't download the manual posted by Waldo.Pepper at momment, will try in another computer).

for level shoots it's perfect, but it's great advantage in deflection. wat I need to do, place it over the target and fire?

I do that, but my rounds never hit the plane. the manual says to track the target for at least 2 seconds, but seems to be a absurd for me (ok, I'm a n00b), as that way I work better with a conventional reflector one. I know the magnific edge of a gyro gunsigth, but can't put it to work in IL2.

any tips on how I must use it for deflection shoots folks?

Lurch1962
08-01-2009, 10:03 PM
In a nutshell, a reflector gun sight removes the effect of parallax. It does this, as already noted, by projecting the reticle at or near optical infinity.

A sight having a larger collimating lens will allow:

- more of the reticle to be seen from a given viewing distance, and
- a larger degree of head movement before the reticle goes out of view.

Note the neat vide-- linked to above--of the Japanese type 98 sight. Two things were clearly apparent:

1) Because the plane model was located at a *much* closer distance than would a real plane, there was a small amount of parallax error. This resulted in the sight picture moving slightly as the viewpoint wandered laterally.

2) The size of the visible portion of the projected reticle was circular and exactly equal to the angular width (diameter) of the collimating lens. In IL-2, many of the reticles are not constrained by this inviolable fact, resulting in the reticle unrealistically fully filling the (often rectangular) reflector plate. A modder who goes by the nickname "Nonwonderdog" has done great work in addressing this issue.


By the way. Gun sights are extremely simple affairs. I've made up what are functionally identical sights for use with astronomical telescopes. The "ingredients":

- lamp
- reticle pattern
- collimating lens
- reflector glass

The only critical dimension for removal of parallax is the separation between reticle and collimator--it must equal the lens' focal length.

Art-J
08-02-2009, 04:26 AM
Originally posted by Wildnoob:
I can't get the K-14 gunsigth to work in IL2 (couldn't download the manual posted by Waldo.Pepper at momment, will try in another computer).

for level shoots it's perfect, but it's great advantage in deflection. wat I need to do, place it over the target and fire?

I do that, but my rounds never hit the plane. the manual says to track the target for at least 2 seconds, but seems to be a absurd for me (ok, I'm a n00b), as that way I work better with a conventional reflector one. I know the magnific edge of a gyro gunsigth, but can't put it to work in IL2.

any tips on how I must use it for deflection shoots folks?

As I understand it, basically yes, place it over and fire, but first make sure that: a) the sight "distance" is preset accordingly to your guns convergence; b) the ring diameter is preset to roughly match the wingspan of the plane you're going to shoot at, and as a result... c) wait with shooting until target's wingspan matches the ring diameter.

All and all, it requires some time and getting used to, and If you're more comfortable and efficient with using classic reflector sight mode, that's OK, stick with it. At that experience level, gyro will not give you some spectacular advantage anyway.

Cheers - Art

Jaws2002
08-02-2009, 09:24 AM
The biggest advantages of collimated gunsights are
- the ability to keep a steady aim even when your head is moving.
-significantly faster target acquisition, because you don't have to align precisely four points in space in order to aim. In a ring and bead sight, like with the iron sights on a rifle you have to align your eye, with the rear sight, with the front sight and then place everything on the target. Because your rear sight and front sight are relatively close together in relation to the target, you have to align them perfectly to get the true line of sight.
In a collimated gunsight, the dot in the middle of your sight, that is projected at infinity, becomes your front sight, and your whole reflector glass becomes your rear sight. This way your front sight is practically ON the target and all you have to do is look at it through any point in the reflector glass.

The speed of acquiring targets, while on the move, made this sights ideal for plane installation, where your head is always moving inside the cockpit.
Half a century later the technology caught up, and holographic sights, became small, strong and cheap enough, to be installed on many combat rifles. At close combat ranges, fast target acquisition is crucial. Most modern armies are introducing them in mass.

Here's a video of an EOTech sight.:

http://video.google.com/videop...DYGdD5lQfgmIVs&hl=en (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6171484737767746207&ei=-ah1SsDYGdD5lQfgmIVs&hl=en)

http://www.gunshopfinder.com/Eotech/eotech552_2.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:Pj90Dh72zwaawM:http://www.theshootersbox.com/store/images/optics/ultradot_panav.jpg
http://www.aimpoint.com/cache/ttf/0ee9d2ecc0ee93b50c.jpg
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/fnp-45doctersight.gif