PDA

View Full Version : What Tanks and Artillary used at el alamein?



thefruitbat
08-10-2008, 03:27 PM
I'm currently doing a copule of map templates concerning el alamein and also tobruk, and want to know what equipment was used that we have in FMB

I'm guessing on the German side that its mainly mk IV panzers, but what type, e's, f's, f2's or j's? Did they have mk III's as well? Halftracks as well.

For anti tank guns, the pak 38 and of course 88's.

For the British, Matildas, Valentines, and Stuarts. Don't really know what else to use vehecles wise, plus don't know what artillary or anti tank weapons to use.

Any help app.

cheers fruitbat

thefruitbat
08-10-2008, 03:27 PM
I'm currently doing a copule of map templates concerning el alamein and also tobruk, and want to know what equipment was used that we have in FMB

I'm guessing on the German side that its mainly mk IV panzers, but what type, e's, f's, f2's or j's? Did they have mk III's as well? Halftracks as well.

For anti tank guns, the pak 38 and of course 88's.

For the British, Matildas, Valentines, and Stuarts. Don't really know what else to use vehecles wise, plus don't know what artillary or anti tank weapons to use.

Any help app.

cheers fruitbat

NagaSadow84
08-10-2008, 04:13 PM
German tank strength (23.10.1942)
Typ Total(Operational)

21. Pz.Div.
Pz.Rgt. 5
_Pz.Kpfw. II 19(18)
_Pz.Kpfw. III lg 43(43)
_Pz.Kpfw. III kz 53(43)
_Pz.Kpfw. IV lg 15(15)
_Pz.Kpfw. IV kz 7(6)
_Pz.Bef.Wg. III 6(3)
Pz.Jg.Abt. 39
_Marder III (7.62cm) 18(?)
_5cm Pak 38 17(?)
s.IG-Kp.(mot.) 708
_15cm sIG33 (Sf) Pz.Kpfw. I B 6(?)
Art.Rgt.(mot.) 155
_10.5cm leFH 18 24(?)
_15cm sFH 18 12(?)
_15cm sFH 13/1 (Sf) auf GsWg LrS(f) 11(?)
I./Flak-Rgt.(mot.) 18
_2cm Flak 24(?)
_8.8cm Flak 8(?)

15. Pz.Div.
Pz.Rgt. 8
_Pz.Kpfw. II 14(12)
_Pz.Kpfw. III lg 44(43)
_Pz.Kpfw. III kz 43(38)
_Pz.Kpfw. IV lg 15(15)
_Pz.Kpfw. IV kz 3(2)
_Pz.Bef.Wg. III 2(1)
Pz.Jg.Abt. 33
_Marder III (7.62cm) 16(?)
_5cm Pak 38 12(?)
Art.Rgt.(mot.) 33
_10.5cm leFH 18 24(?)
_10.5cm sK 17 4(?)
_15cm sFH 18 8(?)
_15cm sFH 13/1 (Sf) auf GsWg LrS(f) 8(?)
I./Flak-Rgt.(mot.) 33
_2cm Flak 24(?)
_8.8cm Flak 8(?)

15. Pz.Div. had various m.SPW.(Sd.Kfz.251) and le.SPW.(Sd.Kfz.250), 21. Pz.Div. probably only m.SPW.
The strength reports didn't report the Ausf., they only reported kz (kurz=short), lg (lang=long) or caliber (5cm etc.). Therefore:
Pz.Kpfw. III kz = Ausf. F/G/H/early J
Pz.Kpfw. III lg = late J/L/M
Pz.Kpfw. IV kz = A/B/C/D/E/F
Pz.Kpfw. IV lg = G/H/J

fabianfred
08-10-2008, 05:54 PM
You need the new tank Pack mod

it has M3 Lee/grant; Vickers MkVI; Crusader

and there were plenty of the M3 75mm GMC used in the desert too..

M2A1 105mm gun is similar to the British 25-pdr

and plenty of bofors guns too ...they have a very long range in the game and will open fire on anything within range.... giving the sight of tracers flying around

A few matildas might have still been around...but mostly outclassed by the long gunned Pzkfw III and IV

WTE_Galway
08-10-2008, 06:14 PM
For the German's the list by NagaSadow84 gives you the details. But basically a 50/50 mix of short and long 50mm Pz.kpfw III and for transport Opel trucks for the bulk of the Germans. Add in a few Sd.Kfz.250/251 halftracks and a few Kubelwagon and it will not be far wrong. The 88's in the desert where often fired without being dismounted but thats a bit hard to model.

jarink
08-10-2008, 06:20 PM
The M4 Sherman also made it's debut for the British at the battle of El Alamein.

ElAurens
08-10-2008, 06:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jarink:
The M4 Sherman also made it's debut for the British at the battle of El Alamein. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And it came as a bit of a shock to the Germans, as they had never faced a tank in the west that was roughly their equal before.

Yes, the Matilda was well armoured, but it was dreadfully slow and under gunned. The Lee/Grant was mechanically reliable (as were all the US tanks, especially in comparison to say, the Valentine), but it had a very tall profile which made it an easy target in vast open areas of the desert. The Valentine was good, when it ran, which was not often or for very long.

La7_brook
08-10-2008, 08:06 PM
Sherman AkA Zippo one stike and they light up every time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

WTE_Galway
08-10-2008, 08:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by La7_brook:
Sherman AkA Zippo one stike and they light up every time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One does have to wonder what possessed people to run a tank on petrol instead of diesel ... but then again the Germans did the same thing with the Panther. It had a wee bit more armor though.

As medium tanks go it was pretty good, on par with the Pz.Kpfw. IV and T34 though lacking the better penetrating ammo of the Germans and Russians. It needed to get a lot closer to do any damage.

Overall it has an undeservedly poor reputation, mostly because it was pitted against Tigers and Panthers ... much heavier tanks.

jarink
08-10-2008, 09:14 PM
The Sherman also had something that most other tanks lacked... a working gyrostabilizer. I'm not sure if the ones at El Alamein had them, though.

The Sherman's 75mm medium velocity gun was also more than adequate against the armor of Mk III and Mk IV tanks it faced in N. Africa. (Yes, I know there were Tigers in Tunisia, but there were very few of them employed.)

The US 75mm gun also had something almost totally lacking from other British tanks - a good HE round. This was very important when facing Axis AT guns and infantry.

luftluuver
08-10-2008, 09:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by La7_brook:
Sherman AkA Zippo one stike and they light up every time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One does have to wonder what possessed people to run a tank on petrol instead of diesel ... but then again the Germans did the same thing with the Panther. It had a wee bit more armor though.

As medium tanks go it was pretty good, on par with the Pz.Kpfw. IV and T34 though lacking the better penetrating ammo of the Germans and Russians. It needed to get a lot closer to do any damage.

Overall it has an undeservedly poor reputation, mostly because it was pitted against Tigers and Panthers ... much heavier tanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Afaik ALL German tanks ran on petrol.
Btw, some Shermans had diesel engines, with most going to the Russians.
The T-34/76 had almost useless armour ammo.
The Pz.Kpfw IV only when it got the long barrel 75mm.

JtD
08-10-2008, 10:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NagaSadow84:
Pz.Kpfw. III kz = Ausf. F/G/H/early J
Pz.Kpfw. III lg = late J/L/M
Pz.Kpfw. IV kz = A/B/C/D/E/F
Pz.Kpfw. IV lg = G/H/J </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very informative post, NagaSadow, thanks. I'd like to add to the part I quoted, that the PzIVF2 also is a lg type, as it is the first PzIV to receive the long 75mm gun.
Pz.Bef.Wg. III is command vehicle that could or could not have a cannon. In case it had none, it was sometimes equipped with a dummy cannon so it wouldn't be so easy to identify.

WTE_Galway
08-10-2008, 10:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luftluuver:

Afaik ALL German tanks ran on petrol.
Btw, some Shermans had diesel engines, with most going to the Russians.
The T-34/76 had almost useless armour ammo.
The Pz.Kpfw IV only when it got the long barrel 75mm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting never knew that. So why does the Panther have a reputation of being far easier to set alight then other german tanks ?

NagaSadow84
08-10-2008, 11:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NagaSadow84:
Pz.Kpfw. III kz = Ausf. F/G/H/early J
Pz.Kpfw. III lg = late J/L/M
Pz.Kpfw. IV kz = A/B/C/D/E/F
Pz.Kpfw. IV lg = G/H/J </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very informative post, NagaSadow, thanks. I'd like to add to the part I quoted, that the PzIVF2 also is a lg type, as it is the first PzIV to receive the long 75mm gun.
Pz.Bef.Wg. III is command vehicle that could or could not have a cannon. In case it had none, it was sometimes equipped with a dummy cannon so it wouldn't be so easy to identify. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf. F2 and Ausf. G are one and the same. F2 was just a temporary designation used between 21.03.1942 and 05.06.1942:

13.01.1942: 7./B.W.-Umbau
03.03.1942: Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.F-Umbau
21.03.1942: Ausf.F2 (7./B.W.Umbau)
22.05.1942: Pz.Kpfw.IV (7.5 cm Kw.K.40) (Sd.Kfz.161) 7./B.W., Ausf.F2)
05.06.1942: 8./B.W., (Ausf.G)
01.07.1942: PzKpfw.IV Ausf.G

Umbau = rebuild
B.W. (Begleitwagen) = escort vehicle

All those designations referred to the same production-series.

Chris0382
08-11-2008, 03:53 AM
The Sherman's were a nicely mass produced clockwork running tank that was weker and more vunerable to its heavy tank counterparts. It wasn't until the Pershing came out that had the proper suspension the Sherman should have had that America had a serious tank.

The designers of the Sherman refused to use another designers suspension do to problems with ego and not wanting another designer to tell them what to do.

thefruitbat
08-11-2008, 04:32 AM
Thanks alot guys, really helpful info, especially NagaSadow84 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I shall get busy building...

cheers fruitbat

Chris0382
08-11-2008, 04:44 AM
Best of luck with that map fruitbat; looks like you into some nice historical mission work. Hope it comes out well.

Blutarski2004
08-11-2008, 06:42 AM
Based upon the daily strength return of the 15th Panzer Division for 23 October 1942, the mix of tanks was as follows -

12 - Pzkpfw II
38 - Pzkpfw III
43 - Pzkpfw III Special
2 - Pzkpfw IV
15 - Pzkpfw IV Special


Other major weapons possessed by 15th Panzer Division on the same date as follows -

70 - 50mm Pak
8 - 88mm Flak
4 - 100mm K17
24 - 100mm howitzers (probably 105mm)
8 - 150mm howitzers
4 x 150mm heavy infantry guns
5 x 88mm field guns (captured British)
4 x 57mm AT guns (captured British)
16 x 76.2mm Sfl (Diana) (Ru guns on SP mounts)
8 x 150mm howitzer Sfl (SP guns)
41 x misc Italian guns


For what it's worth ...

thefruitbat
08-11-2008, 08:24 AM
Ok, slight change of plan, taking advantage of a new map http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I now thinking of doing a seige of tobruk scenario, using

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/thefruitbat1/grab0000q.jpg

and in particular taking advantage of the ready made defenses

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/thefruitbat1/grab0001q.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/thefruitbat1/grab0002q.jpg

which go all the way around tobruk!

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/thefruitbat1/grab0003q.jpg

I'm guessing nearly all the stuff is the same except for the shermans, as only a couple of months before,

cheers fruitbat

joeap
08-11-2008, 10:16 AM
Looks like you are hard at work, ummm would you consider using some of the "older" maps as well?