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View Full Version : Okay, Am I cheating or what? Carrier takeoff.



LilHorse
11-24-2004, 01:10 PM
I was looking at the thread dealing with launching fully loaded Corsairs and I remembered I had a question about carrier launches unanswered.

I have no problems taking off because I run my engine up to 100% while chocks are still in place and give it time to rev all the way up. Then I give the chocks-away, come off my breaks and I take off like a shot. I had no problems with a SBD with three bombs and full fuel the other night.

So is this proper procedure? Could the chocks really be pulled away like that if the a/c is straining against them?

JG5_Scorpius
11-24-2004, 01:48 PM
No that would not be possible, but neither would running the engine at full power with a tail dragger without something holding down the tail.

Scorpius

heywooood
11-24-2004, 01:49 PM
I believe the chocks were used to reduce the stress on the pilots' legs...the crew would place the planes on the deck and chock the wheels..the pilots would climb in and go through preflight...then start engines.
With the chocks in place, they could do all this and not have to be standing on the brakes the whole time. Then start engines and wait for orders...now stand on the brakes..run the engines up full...signal 'Chocks away' ..release brakes and roll down the deck.

as for 'holdin down the tail' .... full back on the stick will hold her down until you are ready to roll..

MrMoonlight
11-24-2004, 01:56 PM
I'm not completely familiar with the exact takeoff procedures for the SBD, but I would think what you are doing wouldn't normally be possible. Your engine is producing a tremendous amount of torque at full power and max RPM.

If you pull the chocks out at full power, I would think the torque would send you over the right side after a short distance. It seems to me you wouldn't have enough speed at that point for the rudder to be anywhere near effective enough to counter the torque (you obviously need a certain degree of airflow over the rudder for it to become effective). I've noticed that the rudders of some of the aircraft in the sim become effective at a very low speed, which may or may not be a bug in the flight modeling. Perhaps this is why you are able to do what you're doing.

I'm not claiming to be an expert on carrier launches...just going by my real life experiences as a pilot in high performance aircraft. Also, in California a few years back, I actually witnessed an inexperienced P-51 pilot in his brand new toy veer violently off the runway by doing pretty much what you described...holding the brakes while giving full takeoff power. Upon brake release, he basically just started skidding off to the right and went right off the runway into the weeds...by the time he came to a stop, he'd done about a 240 degree turn on the ground.

heywooood
11-24-2004, 01:58 PM
well - the boat is usually making between 25-35 knots during takeoff and thats into the prevailing wind as a rule...so

MrMoonlight
11-24-2004, 02:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
well - the boat is usually making between 25-35 knots during takeoff and thats into the prevailing wind as a rule...so <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Valid point. Hadn't considered that. Add to that a little help from the prop wash and it might be doable.

Actually, I mistyped in my message above. The plane would be pulled to the left (the Mustang went left, too) I had "right rudder" on the brain while I was typing (ya know, kick right to counter the torque). http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

stansdds
11-24-2004, 02:16 PM
I doubt it, I think real aircraft had better brakes. Watch some video of Corsairs taking off and you will see the brakes will hold the plane and the tailwheel will actually begin to lift from the deck. It is at this point the pilot would release the brakes.

LilHorse
11-24-2004, 02:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrMoonlight:
I'm not completely familiar with the exact takeoff procedures for the SBD, but I would think what you are doing wouldn't normally be possible. Your engine is producing a tremendous amount of torque at full power and max RPM.

If you pull the chocks out at full power, I would think the torque would send you over the right side after a short distance. It seems to me you wouldn't have enough speed at that point for the rudder to be anywhere near effective enough to counter the torque (you obviously need a certain degree of airflow over the rudder for it to become effective). I've noticed that the rudders of some of the aircraft in the sim become effective at a very low speed, which may or may not be a bug in the flight modeling. Perhaps this is why you are able to do what you're doing.

I'm not claiming to be an expert on carrier launches...just going by my real life experiences as a pilot in high performance aircraft. Also, in California a few years back, I actually witnessed an inexperienced P-51 pilot in his brand new toy veer violently off the runway by doing pretty much what you described...holding the brakes while giving full takeoff power. Upon brake release, he basically just started skidding off to the right and went right off the runway into the weeds...by the time he came to a stop, he'd done about a 240 degree turn on the ground. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I'd think if you were going to swerve it'd be to the left and require lots of right rudder to counter. If you're going to launch from a carrier there's no way you could do it with a smooth rolling run up. There just isn't enough length. So, standing on the breaks or standing on the breaks and having the chocks in place would be the only way to do it. And, as was pointed out, having the carrier pointed into the wind helps.

If I recall correctly, I remember a story about pilots in fully laden P-47s in the PTO needing to stand on the breaks until the power of the engine started moving it even with them standing on 'em. Then stepping off the breaks and still needing all of the runway to get airborne.

Anyway, the training mission in PF says to stand on the breaks and run the engine up to 100% then release for takeoff. I'm just wondering if keeping the chocks in place was actually done. Guess I'll have to look at that training mission again.

In the mean time it'd be nice if somebody who's a naval aviation freak could tell us the SOP for launch.

heywooood
11-24-2004, 02:18 PM
I have no firsthand experience in this either..only what I have read. I am sure that a Mustang or a Corsair with that kind of tourque would have different proceedures for carrier takeoff than an SBD would though...probably less than full power or some kind of power runup after brake release would be the rule.

What high performance planes have you had the pleasure to fly, MR Moonlight?

LilHorse
11-24-2004, 02:43 PM
Boy, sometimes I'm glad I DL old warbird training films. I just watched one about the Corsair. The instructions for takeoff from the carrier deck were 20 to 30 degrees flaps, stand on the breaks, run engine up to full power, keep stick back to avoid tail lift and digging the prop into the deck (they actually show the tail bouncing up and down a little while the plane is standing still). Have 6 degrees right rudder, 6 degrees right aileron, and one degree up elevator dialed in. Release the breaks and takeoff. No chocks in place.

LOL! Guess I'll have to practice keeping it still and taking off sans chocks. Thanks for the responses.

MrMoonlight
11-24-2004, 02:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
Actually, I'd think if you were going to swerve it'd be to the left and require lots of right rudder to counter... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are correct. You obviously missed the follow-up post to my original post above.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by heywooood:
What high performance planes have you had the pleasure to fly, MR Moonlight? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fly the Pilatus PC-12 and Beech King Air 200 for a company, but I also have about 300 hours total in the AT-6 Texan, T-28 Trojan, T-34 Mentor and Chinese built Yaks. I hope one day to get into the cockpit of a warbird fighter such as the P-51.

Fliger747
11-24-2004, 03:00 PM
Indeed the chocks feature is not ralistic, but is a gameplay compromise, mainy due to the lack of wind over the deck in most situations in the game. In my home made missions I have the carriers steaming at about 30 knots to make the operations more realistic. In that scenario, rudder authority is available from the start. Locking the tailwheel and holding the tail down as best as is posible at the begining of the takeoff run was the normal procedure till some airspeed (not deck speed) was aquired.

Chocks were esential for warmup and checks, such as magnetos and cycling the prop. Keep the cowl flaps full open for all ground ops!

LilHorse
11-24-2004, 03:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrMoonlight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
Actually, I'd think if you were going to swerve it'd be to the left and require lots of right rudder to counter... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are correct. You obviously missed the follow-up post to my original post above.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by heywooood:
What high performance planes have you had the pleasure to fly, MR Moonlight? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fly the Pilatus PC-12 and Beech King Air 200 for a company, but I also have about 300 hours total in the AT-6 Texan, T-28 Trojan, T-34 Mentor and Chinese built Yaks. I hope one day to get into the cockpit of a warbird fighter such as the P-51. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I was typing while you were posting.

Anyway, cool planes you've gotten to fly. I love the Texan. And I've heard the Trojan is very powerful. Sounds like fun. Some guys just make the smart career choices. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LilHorse
11-24-2004, 03:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fliger747:
Indeed the chocks feature is not ralistic, but is a gameplay compromise, mainy due to the lack of wind over the deck in most situations in the game. In my home made missions I have the carriers steaming at about 30 knots to make the operations more realistic. In that scenario, rudder authority is available from the start. Locking the tailwheel and holding the tail down as best as is posible at the begining of the takeoff run was the normal procedure till some airspeed (not deck speed) was aquired.

Chocks were esential for warmup and checks, such as magnetos and cycling the prop. Keep the cowl flaps full open for all ground ops! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that for all carrier launches in the game the carrier is pointed into the wind and provides the needed wind over the deck. If you look at the speedbar you see an airspeed indicated while just sitting there.

Buckaroo12
11-24-2004, 03:30 PM
I don't think headwinds are modelled at all in this game, so any direction the carrier is steaming is pretty well into the wind!!

SimplyUnreal
11-24-2004, 04:05 PM
Hey LilHorse,

Where could I find those "old warbird training films"? Sounds like interesting content to watch.

eddiemac0
11-24-2004, 04:15 PM
SimplyUnreal:
look up zeno's warbirds. They've got wartime Air Force and Navy training videos. You need real-player to watch them and they download as you view. Each one is about 20 minutes (However, none of the videos I have seen have carrier procedures, if anyone knows where those are, that'd be great to know too!)

Fliger747
11-24-2004, 06:47 PM
No "winds" at all in the game. As noted any wind over the deck is from carrier speed, which I why I have e'm steaming pretty fast 'at home'. In FS9 there are some carriers, which are in actuality static, but you can tune up the winds....

There is a reason why the carrier static trainer is provided, as this is what you are stuck with in some scenarios.

A circular approach to landing is quite a different experience with proper wind over the deck. Quite fun actually, you can see how the LSO could be kept in view pretty well.

heywooood
11-24-2004, 09:49 PM
Boy I'm glad you download the old training films too, LilHorse...

and Mr.Moonlight - the T28 Trojan is s'posed to be a pretty fun airplane.
http://www.warbirdalley.com/images/CrashWilliamsflyinghisT-28B.jpg

I think it has all the best qualities of a prop driven warbird, eh?

Fliger747
11-25-2004, 03:22 PM
The T-28 IS (Clintonian emphasis) A neat plane. There are a couple of ones in Alaska where I live, including two which were used by the State Forestry Dept. with IR cameras to map fire hotspots. A couple of my buddies went through pilot training using the T-28.

If you like the sound of radials, the fire bombers of your plied the skies over my house till recently and guy has a Navy S2.

Asgeir_Strips
11-27-2004, 01:04 PM
I have read in a magazine called Flight Journal, a F4U corsair Special edition, That a F4U-4 Corsair pilot, who was about to Carrier qualify, didn't use chocks. He told that he stood on the toe brakes until he had checked that everything was ready to go before take off after his first trap. And also he didn use full power ('bout 54 inches of manifold pressure on the F4U-4) because then the tail will raise, even though he had the control stick in his chest, and also he didn't dare to salute the Deck Launch officer with his right hand because he was frightened that the tail might have come up. IMHO i think that the pilots (That were the next to takeoff) applied ca. 85% power, and then released the brakes, and when they reached the "island" they applied full power and rudder to counter the tourqe the engine was generating.

Philipscdrw
11-27-2004, 02:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
and Mr.Moonlight - the T28 Trojan is s'posed to be a pretty fun airplane.

I think it has all the best qualities of a prop driven warbird, eh? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except for the guns, and a canopy that isn't the size of a lifeboat on the Titanic... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

All I get to fly are Puchatz or Bocian gliders, product of Poland, and with a power-to-weight ratio of 0.

heywooood
11-27-2004, 07:49 PM
T28 has a radial engine, great visibility all around, decent speed, and is capable of any aerobatic manoever...couple of wing mounted .50's would be nice, but you cant have everything.

Fliger...the CDF keeps a couple of S2 Trackers over at the Fallbrook airport here in So.Cal. during that time of year...they make great tankers.

heywooood
11-27-2004, 07:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Asgeir_Strips:
I have read in a magazine called Flight Journal, a F4U corsair Special edition, That a F4U-4 Corsair pilot, who was about to Carrier qualify, didn't use chocks. He told that he stood on the toe brakes until he had checked that everything was ready to go before take off after his first trap. And also he didn use full power ('bout 54 inches of manifold pressure on the F4U-4) because then the tail will raise, even though he had the control stick in his chest, and also he didn't dare to salute the Deck Launch officer with his right hand because he was frightened that the tail might have come up. IMHO i think that the pilots (That were the next to takeoff) applied ca. 85% power, and then released the brakes, and when they reached the "island" they applied full power and rudder to counter the tourqe the engine was generating. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

_____________________________________________

F4U-4 is a beast compared with the earlier versions we have...

effte
11-29-2004, 01:19 AM
Winds are modelled, albeit only at lower altitudes. With worsening weather, you get winds as well.

Unfortunately, there's no way of telling in which direction they blow, except for visually comparing your ground track and heading.