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View Full Version : La5/7 Engine Overheating ??????????????



XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 12:35 PM
In the object viewer the data for the La5/7 series indicates that these planes have a 10 minute boost. I take that to mean that forsazh can be engaged for 10 minutes without engine overheating/damage effects.
In tests I have done with the La7 at sea level, the engine overheats at between 3:12 min and 3:37 min on forsazh power and if you continue to keep forsazh engaged after that overheating has occurred the result will be engine damage at between 5:40 min and 6:00 min.
I notice in the data given for the La5/7 planes in the advanced manual on the cd, that it states that the radial engine 'can easily overheat in combat, especially when using boost'.
Is the data on this in the object viewer incorrect? How long could these planes maintain full power in real life?
The stated 10 minute boost is not achievable in the game at the moment and in fact if you left forsazh power on for that period of time the engine would fail completely.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 12:35 PM
In the object viewer the data for the La5/7 series indicates that these planes have a 10 minute boost. I take that to mean that forsazh can be engaged for 10 minutes without engine overheating/damage effects.
In tests I have done with the La7 at sea level, the engine overheats at between 3:12 min and 3:37 min on forsazh power and if you continue to keep forsazh engaged after that overheating has occurred the result will be engine damage at between 5:40 min and 6:00 min.
I notice in the data given for the La5/7 planes in the advanced manual on the cd, that it states that the radial engine 'can easily overheat in combat, especially when using boost'.
Is the data on this in the object viewer incorrect? How long could these planes maintain full power in real life?
The stated 10 minute boost is not achievable in the game at the moment and in fact if you left forsazh power on for that period of time the engine would fail completely.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 12:45 PM
La5FN had only 2 minutes of "WEP". La7 is supose to have 10 minutes. But not in all the cases, al situations.

WEP is 110% of engine power.
Forzak is constant 2500 RPM.

Radial engines NEED air flow to cold down. The engine overheat depends of your SPEED. more speed = more cold.

A radial engine can't go full WEP and climbing, for instance. Because of the slow speed and low air flow = poor cooling.

IMHO there is some problems with the cooling and the overheatings, and so on. But, i think this is to want TOO MUCH from a 50 euros game.

http://asakiyumemishi.com/fw190B.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:38 PM
Gunkan wrote:
- La5FN had only 2 minutes of "WEP". La7 is supose to
- have 10 minutes. But not in all the cases, al
- situations.
-
- WEP is 110% of engine power.
- Forzak is constant 2500 RPM.
-
- Radial engines NEED air flow to cold down. The
- engine overheat depends of your SPEED. more speed =
- more cold.
-
- A radial engine can't go full WEP and climbing, for
- instance. Because of the slow speed and low air flow
- = poor cooling.
-
- IMHO there is some problems with the cooling and the
- overheatings, and so on. But, i think this is to
- want TOO MUCH from a 50 euros game.
-
http://asakiyumemishi.com/fw190B.jpg
-


Yes I do realise that air-cooled engines get more cooling at higher speeds and reduced cooling in a climb.
The fact remains that the engine in the La7 will break if you leave it on boost for 10 minutes.
And about me wanting too much from a 50 euros game. I thought the reason we loved this game was its adherence to actual data. If the climb rates of your favourite Fw190 series were way off the data in the object viewer (as they were with FB v1.0), you'd be the first to kick up a fuss about it.







Message Edited on 08/18/0301:39PM by WooHooToYou

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:55 PM
Try to repeat the test this way:
- Keep engine RPM, by reducing % of propeller's pitch, at about max power (don't remember how many RPM, just look on the manual on CD#2).
- Fly leveled at high speed and at 5000-6000 m (compressor at 2 and 80% mixture.
- Engage Forszah only at >500 km/h.
Then let me know, please!!!

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 06:33 PM
Cippacometa wrote:
- Try to repeat the test this way:
-- Keep engine RPM, by reducing % of propeller's pitch, at about max power (don't remember how many RPM, just look on the manual on CD#2).
-- Fly leveled at high speed and at 5000-6000 m (compressor at 2 and 80% mixture.
-- Engage Forszah only at >500 km/h.
- Then let me know, please!!!
-
-


So when oleg puts 10 minute boost in the object viewer, you have to go to 5000-6000m to get it?
Doesn't sound right to me.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 06:45 PM
Was Oleg wrong all this time? The La's could always go 10 min on Wep without overheating. Now they can't. All the time in IL2 Oleg said Wep was right on the La's.


btw..He modeled the late La5FN, so it does have a 10 min Wep.This has been talked to death already.

If being air cooled is the problem. Then the A series Fw190 is wrong too. It can go forever on boost, as long as you don't close the rad completely. In the La7, it will overheat even if the rad isn't closed. Something is wrong.

25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 06:54 PM
Hehehe, so you guys don't like the 109 cooling system? We like yours /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Roy Baty
IV/JG51 M√¬∂lders

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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 06:57 PM
My cooling system is on the 190../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

25th_Buzz
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http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:00 PM
Erholte N√¬∂sheltung (ah how do you write it) is supposed to work for 20 mins without overheating .. and it works. So what? MW-50 is different, overheats faster..

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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 08:10 PM
i dont see why your asking and why your even using it. Your airplane can currently out run anything in the game even with out that.

P4-2.4Gig
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So he tells me, "I ban the Me262 cause its turn rate is over modeled and it dosnt stall"... Then he takes off from his base in a Hurricane.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 08:20 PM
No it can't.

25th_Buzz
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<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 08:34 PM
Yes it can.. LA5FN is faster than FW-190 A5 and BF109 G6 on 43, (I had no trouble keeping FW-190s and 109 G6s bechind my back on a 1943 server in my LA5FN..and LA-7 is faster at low altitudes (below 5k) than any late war German planes. Including the Dora.


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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 08:39 PM
You better do some testing. Fly the La's with no Wep, and all the others with Wep, and see which is faster.

25th_Buzz
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<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 09:01 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- You better do some testing. Fly the La's with no
- Wep, and all the others with Wep, and see which is
- faster.
-
- 25th_Buzz
I can attest to that as well. I can easily catch La's with ease in the right circumstances. Even if they try and run I can at the very least stay with them and at best catch them and give them a good run for their money.

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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 09:04 PM
Here's a quote translated from the original La-5(F)pilot's instruction manual (Nov,13,1942) page 18:

=====
In order to reach a maximum speed when enemy is encountered, the following steps are necessary:
1. Close the mixture corrector.
2. Above 3500 m, supercharger should be set to 2nd stage.
3. Full throttle (2400rpm)
4. Close canopy for a 10km/h increase in speed.
5. Close cowl flaps and oil radiator (opening them reduces
the maximum speed by 30-35 km/h)
6. Engage forsazh (WEP). Forsazh can be used continuosly
for 5 minutes.
7. Temperatures should be:
No higher than 215 C for cylinder heads
No higher than 125 C for oil
=====

And here's another quote from the original pilot's instruction manual, this time it's a La-5FN (July,14,1943)
page 16-17:

=====
In order to reach a maximum speed when enemy is encountered, the following steps are necessary:
a. Close canopy for a 15-18 km/h increase in speed.
b. Close cowl flaps and oil radiator to get a 45-50km/h
increase in speed and decrease the time necessary to
make a complete turn by 2 seconds.
c. Check the tailwheel position. If it didn't retract
completely, briefly set the gear lever to "retract"
position. If the tailwheel is not retracted, the speed
is reduced by 8-10km/h
d. Briefly set the flaps lever to "up" position. When flaps
are not retracted firmly and got loose slightly during
the flight due to the airflow suction effect in flight,
the speed is reduced by 18-20 km/h.
e. Engage forsazh (WEP), Manifold pressure - 1180 mm,
engine - 2500rpm. Continuous forsazh can be engaged for
5 minutes.
Using a high manifold pressure setting (1180mm against
1000 nominal) ensures a speed increase by 30-35 km/h.
=====

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 09:23 PM
FPS_Stierlitz wrote:
- Here's a quote translated from the original
- La-5(F)pilot's instruction manual (Nov,13,1942) page
- 18:
-
- =====
- In order to reach a maximum speed when enemy is
- encountered, the following steps are necessary:
- 1. Close the mixture corrector.
-
- 2. Above 3500 m, supercharger should be set to 2nd
- stage.
-
- 3. Full throttle (2400rpm)
-
- 4. Close canopy for a 10km/h increase in speed.
-
- 5. Close cowl flaps and oil radiator (opening them
- reduces
-
- the maximum speed by 30-35 km/h)
-
- 6. Engage forsazh (WEP). Forsazh can be used
- continuosly
-
- for 5 minutes.
-
- 7. Temperatures should be:
-
- No higher than 215 C for cylinder heads
-
- No higher than 125 C for oil
-
- =====
-
- And here's another quote from the original pilot's
- instruction manual, this time it's a La-5FN
- (July,14,1943)
- page 16-17:
-
- =====
- In order to reach a maximum speed when enemy is
- encountered, the following steps are necessary:
- a. Close canopy for a 15-18 km/h increase in speed.
-
- b. Close cowl flaps and oil radiator to get a
- 45-50km/h
-
- increase in speed and decrease the time
- necessary to
-
- make a complete turn by 2 seconds.
-
- c. Check the tailwheel position. If it didn't
- retract
-
- completely, briefly set the gear lever to
- "retract"
-
- position. If the tailwheel is not retracted, the
- speed
-
- is reduced by 8-10km/h
-
- d. Briefly set the flaps lever to "up" position.
- When flaps
-
- are not retracted firmly and got loose slightly
- during
-
- the flight due to the airflow suction effect in
- flight,
-
- the speed is reduced by 18-20 km/h.
-
- e. Engage forsazh (WEP), Manifold pressure - 1180
- mm,
-
- engine - 2500rpm. Continuous forsazh can be
- engaged for
-
- 5 minutes.
-
- Using a high manifold pressure setting (1180mm
- against
-
- 1000 nominal) ensures a speed increase by 30-35
- km/h.
-
- =====
-


Well a 5 minute boost would be an improvement on what we have at the moment.
I don't suppose anyone's got a translation of a La7 handbook?

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 09:14 AM
WooHooToYou wrote:
- So when oleg puts 10 minute boost in the object
- viewer, you have to go to 5000-6000m to get it?
- Doesn't sound right to me.
-
At too low altitude, in real life, the air pressure is higher. THus, opening full throttle (110%) means very high manifold pressure that can damage and overheat the engine. If you read through technical stuff of WWII planes, most of the "overboost" system (call them WEP, Forszah, MW-50, Water Injecion or whatsoever) were recommended NOT to be engaged at low altitude due to this kind of problems.
Maybe 5-6000 m it's too much (just the altitude to get max speed), but if you need Forzsah to overclimb or pursue someone, starting let's say from 1000 m, you'll overheat quickly the engine since your speed is low while climbing and there's not enough air to cool the engine, which is working at its maximum. That's in RL, and it seems working also in FB.
Moreover, I've noticed that in winter maps engines stay cool for longer when overboosted. You should check this also...

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 06:03 PM
Cippacometa wrote:
-
- WooHooToYou wrote:
-- So when oleg puts 10 minute boost in the object
-- viewer, you have to go to 5000-6000m to get it?
-- Doesn't sound right to me.
--
- At too low altitude, in real life, the air pressure
- is higher. THus, opening full throttle (110%) means
- very high manifold pressure that can damage and
- overheat the engine. If you read through technical
- stuff of WWII planes, most of the "overboost" system
- (call them WEP, Forszah, MW-50, Water Injecion or
- whatsoever) were recommended NOT to be engaged at
- low altitude due to this kind of problems.
- Maybe 5-6000 m it's too much (just the altitude to
- get max speed), but if you need Forzsah to overclimb
- or pursue someone, starting let's say from 1000 m,
- you'll overheat quickly the engine since your speed
- is low while climbing and there's not enough air to
- cool the engine, which is working at its maximum.
- That's in RL, and it seems working also in FB.
- Moreover, I've noticed that in winter maps engines
- stay cool for longer when overboosted. You should
- check this also...
-
-



I've been doing some 'research' on the forsazh boost facility on the La5/7 series. Power boost facilities of the forsazh type only provide a power boost at low to medium altitudes where the air is relatively dense. If the pilot increases altitude with forsazh enabled it's power-boosting affect will decrease as the air density decreases. After a certain altitude the forsazh system will provide no additional power boost at all. The system is meant to be used at low to medium altitudes, as its power boosting effect starts to diminish at about 2000m and has no effect by the time about 3000m is reached. So saying that you need to go to higher altitudes to avoid overheating within the 10 minute boost period is not a correct solution as the forsazh system doesn't work up there. It is there to provide boost at altitudes like 1000m.

The handbook translation provided by FPS_Stierlitz tells the pilots to use booted power for no more than 5 minutes. As all pilot manuals have a safety margin incorporated in the maximum time you can run an engine at full power, it's not inconceivable that you would have been able to run the engine at full boost for up to 10 minutes. Also as the Ash-82FN was being constantly developed at the time, it's not inconceivable that the power boost facility would have been enhanced on later La5FN's and the La7's (later La5FN's were in production at the same time as La7's, so would have benefited from any engine improvements made for the La7).

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 07:00 PM
WooHooToYou wrote:
-- I've been doing some 'research' on the forsazh boost
- facility on the La5/7 series. Power boost facilities
- of the forsazh type only provide a power boost at
- low to medium altitudes where the air is relatively
- dense. If the pilot increases altitude with forsazh
- enabled it's power-boosting affect will decrease as
- the air density decreases. After a certain altitude
- the forsazh system will provide no additional power
- boost at all.

That's interesting.
But in what does Forzsah consist exactly? Increased turbocharged air flow (did La5FN/7 engines have a turbocharger??)? Injection of water or whatsoever? Or just pushing the engine's RPM and/or power above nominal limits?
Can you tell me the sites where you got your infos? (I'm a lazy guy!!!!).
BTW, thanks all for the interesting discussion!

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 10:07 PM
Vipez- wrote:
- Erholte N√¬∂sheltung (ah how do you write it) is
- supposed to work for 20 mins without overheating ..

"Erh√¬∂hte Notleistung" = (literally) increased emergency power

GreyBeast_P39