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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 07:37 PM
what do u htink is the worst portaril of the me 109 in a movie, i mean they used another plane to replace it and it looks horible, i think the worst is in the movie von ryan's express they have cessnas i htink painted yellow and a tail wheel put on then to look like me 109s and they fire rockets which the me 109 didnt do i thin, what do u think is the worst and if u have a pic show it

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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 07:37 PM
what do u htink is the worst portaril of the me 109 in a movie, i mean they used another plane to replace it and it looks horible, i think the worst is in the movie von ryan's express they have cessnas i htink painted yellow and a tail wheel put on then to look like me 109s and they fire rockets which the me 109 didnt do i thin, what do u think is the worst and if u have a pic show it

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src=http://www.pioneeraero.co.nz/La_703%202.jpg </img> </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 07:40 PM
In an old movie "Fighter squadron" (i think it was) the germans flew P-51 D's the americans used P-47's /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 09:49 PM
Nah, the worst looking Me 109 that was also used in a movie is the one the spanish built after WWII. They did rape the beautiful lines of a nice bird with that british engine.

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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 09:58 PM
I think the weird contraptions in James Bond would cualify /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Also the strange planes used in The Longest Day would fall under "bogged up ME109s".

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 12:35 AM
The worst are also the most commonly seen: Those Spanish b*stardizations of the 109...YeCCCHH!! I agree that they destroyed a beautiful airframe's Classic design! For movies, I don't understand why they can't build a "shell", sort of like the "Kit" cars emulating classic sports cars...

Of course, it is all becoming a moot point... Movie quality graphics are becoming so good that we won't be able to tell the difference in a few years, and then we should see Amazing historically correct aircraft,IF hollywood does its research...in the "PearlHarborSucks" movie, they had Green-painted Army(?) Zeros rather than the correct carrier launched White-painted ones, unless I am mistaken about the Historical facts, which is possible /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ))

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 01:43 AM
Aw c'mon. The Spanish 109s don't look right, I agree, but there are worse example out there. Like the Pilatus from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.


http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/nightschpanker/pilatus.jpg




It's only funny til someone loses an eye....then it's hilarious

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 02:23 AM
LOL, that plane in the post above mine, is that an early Microsoft plane?

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 02:49 AM
Saw a movie where they used an bf108 for a bf109

IT"S Bf109 not Me-109 BTW!

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 02:55 AM
The planes in The Last Crusade were never said to be 109's, but the Spanish Ha-1111's in both Memphis Belle and Battle of Britain (a Great movie none-the-less) are clearly ment to be 109's

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 02:56 AM
Those Spanish Buchons seem to be used in about every movie when a 109 is required regardless of the date in the war (in Memphis Belle set in 1943, Luftwaffe pilots are still flying Emil look a likes). The best one by far is the one already mentioned in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade followed closely by those Spanish 109s in the Battle of Britain /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif ) Oh well, I can't blame the filmakers for using them. After all, a fake 109 is better than no 109 at all. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 03:01 AM
Bf/Me...it's an old arguement. I think that it was decided that they were interchangeable, depending on when they were manufactured.

BTW What was the aircraft that Donald Pleasance started for James Garner in The Great Escape? It's been years since I saw that movie.

It's only funny til someone loses an eye....then it's hilarious


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Message Edited on 07/29/0307:04PM by Dubbo2

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 03:03 AM
Unfortunately there are very, very few flying 109's left, and I don't think the owners want to risk them for a special effect.

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 03:08 AM
saw a list somewhere of planes hollyood had used in movies to represent warbirds

all sorts of stuff .. Beechcraft Bonanzas substituting for Mosquitos .. things like that

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 04:54 AM
The WORST thing I have ever seen, was useing REAL Bf-109's to represent FW-190's !!!

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 06:58 AM
This is all from memory, so correct me if I'm wrong. 4 hours of maths lectures have screwed with my mind.

The main reason the Spanish 109's were used in the Battle of Britain movie was that at the time of filming, they were still in service (not sure if it was front line) with the Spanish Air Force, (as was the He-111?) and thus readily available. I think if you look in the credits at the end there is a special thank you to the Spanish Air Force.

/me puts on the flame ******ant suit in case I'm wrong /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 07:31 AM
Dubbo2 wrote:
- BTW What was the aircraft that Donald Pleasance
- started for James Garner in The Great Escape? It's
- been years since I saw that movie.
-

I think that it was a Bf108, but I'm not completely sure... But that plane was never intended to be a 109.

Great movie, however. Sad that Pleasance didn't make it. They were so near... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 10:22 AM
Here's the Pilatus again :

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/slow-gold/ferte/Pilatus.jpg

Definitely not a 109 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 10:31 AM
Dunno about worst Me109, but I remember watching some Pacific War movie, Midway or something. Anyway, the Americans and the Japanese were duking it out in the sky for the final battle, and suddenly a clip appears of an Me109 crashing into the sea next to what appears to be the White cliffs of Dover! I couldn't believe my eyes.

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fluke39
07-30-2003, 11:01 AM
i bet half the time the worst ones are the ones that you arn't aware have bneen substituted for 109's cause they're completely nothing even remotely like 109's.

i have to disagreee with the buchon 109's too - if anything there probably the closest substitution

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 11:56 AM
They seem to use a lot of Messerschmitt Bf 108 Taufins. A light plane, built before and after the war.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 12:55 PM
I am note positive but, I think the plane that is being refered to is incorrectly identified as the "Pilatus". I could be wrone.

I believe it is the Arado 96 a german trainer. The german AT-6; ha ha. It was equiped with a single forward firing machine gun mounted on side of fuselage for target practice. Also, it had a gun camera mounted above this gun for filming results.

The Second Fighter Pilot School, located in Magdeburge Germany 1943 were assigned these planes.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 01:09 PM
Both Pilatus and Ar 96 are correct.
The Pilatus PC-2 is nothing but a license build Ar 96
But this plane is certainly a Pilatus, since there are no flyable original Ar 96 right now. There is one under restoration in Germany, and Flugwerk will build new ones (for those who want something german but cant afford an Fw 190)
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 04:20 PM
The H-1112 Bouchon is one fugly substitute for a real 109. But as mentioned computer generated effects are getting so good you won't have to worry about this in the future.

One of the best examples of this is from a movie called "Captain Corrielli's Mandolin". It's a forgetable movie except for one scene where a squadron of Stukas are flying in formation (all comp. generated) and they look very real.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 04:59 PM
Llama_Croft wrote:
- Dunno about worst Me109, but I remember watching
- some Pacific War movie, Midway or something. Anyway,
- the Americans and the Japanese were duking it out in
- the sky for the final battle, and suddenly a clip
- appears of an Me109 crashing into the sea next to
- what appears to be the White cliffs of Dover! I
- couldn't believe my eyes.
-

uuh, yea, once I also saw an Pacific War movie.

the "hero" started his attack with a dive,
during this dive he changed not less than eight times the plane (fighter and bombers from navy to airforce) and attacked more then 5 different tartgets the same time (tanker, frighter, destroyer, ...) with MGs, cannons, rockets and bombs.

realy a true hero! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 06:34 PM
My vote goes to the Bf108 they used in "The Longest Day" largely because of the hype they made about using a "real German planes" in the publicity. Yep, a Bf108 is German, and a Messerschmitt, but it's a fighter only if a Cessna 152 is a Mustang. The Spanish planes in Battle of Britain were at least fighters and looked like Bf109's from the cockpit back (and are the best we can hope for without CGI graphics). The Pilatus in "Last Crusade" also looked nice and pre-war, even if it wasn't a Messerschmitt (and anyway, you don't go to Raiders of the Lost Ark for historical accuracy (What was that flying wing in the first one anyway?) As for P-51's as Bf-109s, I doubt if the moviemakers tried to claim they were after authenticity in that one.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 06:43 PM
zoomar wrote:
- My vote goes to the Bf108 they used in "The Longest
- Day" largely because of the hype they made about
- using a "real German planes" in the publicity. Yep,
- a Bf108 is German, and a Messerschmitt, but it's a
- fighter only if a Cessna 152 is a Mustang.

In the book "The Longest Day" Josef Priller flew a FW 190 not a 109 along with his wingman without sustaining a single hit! Then again, an airworthy 190 is even more rare than an airworthy 109.



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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 06:52 PM
Absolutely right MackZ. This is why we can only wish they'll stop using real planes at all and switch to computer graphics.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 07:06 PM
In "Empire of the Sun" are the P-51s real?
I'm guessing the Zeros were cgi?

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 07:56 PM
No, those were Radio Controlled airplanes in Empire of the Sun (for most of the scenes at least).

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 10:01 PM
In older movies it's understandable that substitutes are used for aircraft no longer flying. But in new movies the computer graphics should be able to put any aircraft anywhere. No excuse any longer for stupid looking substitutions.

"Nothing difficult is ever easy"

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 10:17 PM
Even in one of my all time favorite movies Saving Private Ryan the P-51D's dont have bombs on them or anything resembling bombs, they flew overhead with nothing but a big explosion would happen afterwards. Midway is an ok movie, they just show alot of collected video for 90% of the battling.

Even in "We Were Soldiers" they have like 30 choppers one seen, then like only 6 the next. Just watch it when they first take off to go to the battle in the very begining, they randomly add more.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 10:43 PM
the thing is, nowadays it's probably easier to find a huey and a phantom then it is to find a working 109.

I'm a crappy pilot, but one hell of a shot.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 11:46 PM
LEaving aside the movie bit, the Worst Bf109 was the post war version built in Czeckoslovkia powered by the Junkers Jumo called the Avia C199 I think. It was also flown by the Israelis. By all accounts it was a real beast of an aircraft

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 02:13 AM
I really liked the Stukas in Enemy at the Gate. What were the really big bombers that overfly the city while Vassily and that female sniper are in the building? He-111s?



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XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:08 AM
I think the bombers were He111s (there was one crashed in the square that they hid behind when they first ran into Koenig) The wreck on the ground though raised some interesting questions.

How did it belly-in there given there was no approach path?

It also had a fairly funky door configuration.

As for Empire of the Sun, there is a great documentary on the DVD. Seems they used real P51s and Zeroes interspersed with 1/3 scale RC models. (These were supposed to be the largest model aircraft ever used in a film - retracting gear, bomb releases, working lights..they even built a B29 model. Although they didn't mention what size engines they used, they did mention that they used motorcycle engines)

The Zeroes in that film seemed to be somewhat bulkier, with shorter gear than what I picture them with. Is this a difference between land-based and carrier-based Zeroes?

It's only funny til someone loses an eye....then it's hilarious


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Epilogue:
Thanks to the following post, all is now clear re the Zeroes in Empire.....they were the modified Texans. Pretty good job too.

Message Edited on 07/31/0312:13AM by Dubbo2

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 07:50 AM
The best job of faking a/c that no longer existed is in "Tora, Tora, Tora". All the Japanese planes are AT-6's. Some were stretched to match the correct dimensions and all were fabricated into very good copies. The movie's director's narration talks about it.

Discussions about how some scenes were botched and couldn't be reshot and what actually ended up in the movie is interesting as well. The familar shot of the P-40 skidding into the gas truck is one of the luckiest, but most dangerous mistakes ever captured on film.