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View Full Version : P-47. I pulled out (gradually) of dive at 990kmh, is this the fastest? I have a track



Mysticpuma2003
05-09-2005, 06:58 AM
Guys, online last night, in a dogfight, came booming in from alt, the plane was kicking like a mule from the speed stress, but I needed to pull out of the dive. Fully expecting something to fall off, I was suprised (even though I temporarily blacked out), to get away unscathed from this 990k/mh (may have been faster but screen went black) speed dive.

But is this the fastest anyone has ever done without damage. I'm just curious, cheers, Puma.

ImpStarDuece
05-09-2005, 07:21 AM
Was this TAS or IAS?

If it's IAS then thats hard to beat, if it's TAS then I have pulled the P-47 out of dives over 1000 kmph, mostly doing some stress and dive testing vs late model LW birds offline.

You just have to be very, very gentle, apply a little trim, get that nose off the vertical and then easy the it up. Just don't pull much elevator/alieron deflection and 900-1000kph pull outs are possible 9/10 times.

jessi1
05-09-2005, 07:53 AM
Puma could you post the track, would like to see it, thanks

robban75
05-09-2005, 11:17 AM
The P-47 starts losing parts at around 1010km/h IAS. I have a track where I make two dives reaching 1000km/h IAS.

RAF92_Moser
05-09-2005, 02:33 PM
Well, I didn't get it in kilometers an hour, but I got the D-27 to 530 knots, and it exploded at that speed. I originally climbed to 43000 ft, trying to test an altitude ceiling, then got the dive, before it exploded at around 30000 ft.

mynameisroland
05-09-2005, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Mysticpuma2003:
Guys, online last night, in a dogfight, came booming in from alt, the plane was kicking like a mule from the speed stress, but I needed to pull out of the dive. Fully expecting something to fall off, I was suprised (even though I temporarily blacked out), to get away unscathed from this 990k/mh (may have been faster but screen went black) speed dive.

But is this the fastest anyone has ever done without damage. I'm just curious, cheers, Puma.


Hi Mysticpuma on UKD on the bulge red map I dove from 6000m down on a Spitfire at around 3000m after one pass I levelled off through a cloud at 1050 kmh intact with no control loss and just a little juddering. Its really easy to go over 900kmh in a D9.

Rgr

Boemher

Copperhead310th
05-09-2005, 10:35 PM
what i find so hysterical is that i've had
Ki-84b's follow through these same dives.
Simply impossible. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

LeadSpitter_
05-09-2005, 11:47 PM
hey robban i was wondering if you have udpspeed enabled on your computer offline for G's

I have the program but havent used it in along time.

I wanted to know how many G's the mustang is ripping off its wings, I have many tracks of it happening at 560kmph without blackout.

190 109k4 ta152 me262 past 800 im able to snap the wing off from G's not the aircrafts max divespeed before parts break off with fast movement but always have a slight blackout circle.

I heard they all have the same g limit when they pop off which i dont agree with but can be wrong.

Basically past 560-600 in the mustang you have to be more gentle on the elevator then a 109k4 having slight compressibility which really takes away the better high speed elevator authority.

109k4 190 ta152 me262 you have no fear of the wing snapping off from fast stick movement and combat flaps unless pre trimming at 800kmph+

Im just wondering what G numbers its happening at for the couple ac that can pop off wings from G's

Vipez-
05-10-2005, 03:47 AM
L$, you won't loose wings in K-4, because of its exteremely poor elevators in the game. You (atleast i can't) simply can't pull enough Gs to loose wings in K-4 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif , no matter how much i use the trim or pull my stick http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

FW-190, TA-152, they loose wings after 600 kmh ias.. we must be playing different versions (again)..
I do not know about me262 though

Mysticpuma2003
05-10-2005, 07:36 AM
Sorry I don't know what the difference is between IAS and TAS, but if you let me know, I'll let you know!

Jessi, when I get home later this evening I'll put the track up.

I don't intend trying to beat this record (for me) because I just couldn't get an angle on the plane I was chasing without, at the back of mind, the thought that I may lose an elevator and then become a sitting duck for someone else.....all be it, a very fast one!

avimimus
05-10-2005, 08:09 AM
There are several reports of P-47 pilots going super-sonic and surviving.

Non confirmed of course, but it could well be true.

robban75
05-10-2005, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
hey robban i was wondering if you have udpspeed enabled on your computer offline for G's

I have the program but havent used it in along time.

I wanted to know how many G's the mustang is ripping off its wings, I have many tracks of it happening at 560kmph without blackout.

190 109k4 ta152 me262 past 800 im able to snap the wing off from G's not the aircrafts max divespeed before parts break off with fast movement but always have a slight blackout circle.

I heard they all have the same g limit when they pop off which i dont agree with but can be wrong.

Basically past 560-600 in the mustang you have to be more gentle on the elevator then a 109k4 having slight compressibility which really takes away the better high speed elevator authority.

109k4 190 ta152 me262 you have no fear of the wing snapping off from fast stick movement and combat flaps unless pre trimming at 800kmph+

Im just wondering what G numbers its happening at for the couple ac that can pop off wings from G's

No I don't. But the P-51's wing will snap of because of its high instantaneous turn rate ability. The Fw 190 used to have the same light elevators, but that has changed. It's still very light compared to Bf 109, Yak and La's(not La-7) but its instantaneous turn rate isn't in the same league as the Mustangs, nor is any other plane(in the game). Right now it seems to be too good, because it's so easy to pull too high G's in it. One has to be really careful with the input.
The same thing can be said about the Fw 190's roll rate. It was supposed to have light ailerons, but I bet you one had to move the stick more than 2 degrees to get 160/deg sec roll rate in real life. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Taylortony
05-10-2005, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Mysticpuma2003:
Sorry I don't know what the difference is between IAS and TAS, but if you let me know, I'll let you know!

Jessi, when I get home later this evening I'll put the track up.

I don't intend trying to beat this record (for me) because I just couldn't get an angle on the plane I was chasing without, at the back of mind, the thought that I may lose an elevator and then become a sitting duck for someone else.....all be it, a very fast one!

IAS Indicated Airspeed is what the plane is doing

TAS True Airspeed is what the plane is actually doing moving over the ground.

IE because of the curvature of the earth at altitude it varies the higher you get hence TAS

Read your indicated airspeed (IAS) on your airspeed indicator. Read your altitude above Mean Sea Level (MSL) on your altimeter, based on the proper altimeter setting. Mathematically increase your indicated airspeed (IAS) by 2% per thousand feet of altitude to obtain the true airspeed (TAS).

RxMan
05-10-2005, 02:02 PM
I think the difference has more to do with air density and air temp. than the curvature of the earth.

JoachimvMayern
05-10-2005, 02:17 PM
The higher the altitude, the less air. At very high altitudes, the wind resistance drops substantially. Given the same amount of power, an aircraft will travel at different speeds at different altitudes.

BigKahuna_GS
05-10-2005, 02:28 PM
avimimus posted Tue May 10 2005 07:09
There are several reports of P-47 pilots going super-sonic and surviving.
Non confirmed of course, but it could well be true.



No WW2 propeller driven aircraft ever broke the speed barrier. The tips of the propeller blades themselves would come apart upon reaching mach 1, let alone the airframe. Same could be said for the 262 as requards to breaking the sound barrier-- it never happened.


The problem is not the P47s terminal dive speed but how long it takes to get there. The P47s dive acceleration is off. There is no historical seperation during the dive until terminal dive speed is reached.

That goes against dive tests with a captured 190 during a 7,000ft dive from 10,000 ft to 3,000ft. The P47 caught and passed the 190 at a much greater speed and angle of pull out at the 3,000ft mark. The P47 during this dive does not reach terminal dive speed.

Or during the vertical Figure 8 manuever. Where by the P47 utilizing it's faster dive acceleration and greater energy retention in the vertical is able to get on the 190 tail. Never during the manuever does the P47 reach terminal dive speed.

Right now the 109K4 and the 109G10 have relatively the same dive and even greater dive acceleration than the P47D-27 until termianl dive speed is reached. By that time the P47 is shot down or heavily damaged. Unless you have alot of air below you, you will be able to get away by diving from the 109K4/G10--historically inaccurate.


The following is the USAAF test report from a comparison between a Fw190A5 (I believe this was an A5/U8 as it shows no outer wing Cannon or cowling Mg) and a P-47D-4. The A-5 had its two inner wing Cannon removed and equivalent weights substituted. The FW190 was described: "...as in exceptionally good condition for a captured airplane, and developed 42 inches manifold pressure on takeoff." The P-47 was equipped with Water Injection but no paddle blade propeller.

The tests were done between S.L. and 15,000ft. The pilot of the P-47 had 200 hours in P-40's and 5 hours in the P-47. The FW190 Pilot had 300 hours in twin engine, 500 hours in single engine and 5 hours in the FW190. Four separate flights of one hour each were conducted. All speeds were in IAS.


Part of the test-----

3) Diving

(a) 10,000-3,000ft, starting at 250mph diving at an angle of 65 degrees with constant throttle setting. The Fw190 pulled away rapidly at the beginning, but the P-47 passed it at 3,000ft with a much greater speed and had a decidedly better angle of pull out.


However it was found the P-47 could get on the tail of the Fw190 by making a figure 8 in a vertical plane. In this maneuver, the P-47 , which was being pursued by the Fw190 in level flight attempted to execute as series of climbs, slow turns, and dives which would end up with the positions reversed and the P-47 on the tail of the FW190. The maneuver started with a a steep climbing turn to near stalling point, followed by a falloff and fast dive which ended in a pullout and fast climbing sweep which again carried the plane up to the stall and fall off point. The P-47 built up more speed in the dive than the FW190 with the result that the Thunderbolt also climbed faster than the FW190 and also higher. The P-47 pilot merely waited for the FW190 to reach its stalling point below him and turned very neatly on the tail of the falling away FW190. With its much greater diving acceleration, the P-47 soon caught the FW190 in the second dive of his maneuver.


Robert Johnson 56th FG did this many times.


___

BigKahuna_GS
05-10-2005, 02:33 PM
S!



you will NOT be able to get away by diving from the 109K4/G10--historically inaccurate.(with P47)


Left an important word out (not).



__

Mysticpuma2003
05-11-2005, 03:34 AM
Here is the track, just jump to F1 view or leave inflight messages on to see the speed.

Make sure you right click and "save target as", then just choose the records folder in IL2 directory.

http://www.aqqm31.dsl.pipex.com/990.ntrk

Vipez-
05-11-2005, 11:30 AM
Jug is not the only plane having maybe slightly undermodelled diving acceleration.. (though we have plenty of overmodelled ones, like Spits and LA7) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif