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View Full Version : [SPOILER] So, What happened when Al Mualim....... in AC1?



johnnyhayek
09-22-2011, 08:17 AM
There is one thing I never understood in AC1. Al Mualim stabbed Altair in the stomach after he broke the tenets of the creed. After that, Altair is alive, standing right in front of Al Mualim's desk. All that Al Mualim said is "You saw what I wanted you to see, and you slept the sleep of the dead" or something along those lines. So, I never understood what happened there? Why is Altair alive? Why does he wake up standing in front of a desk? Does it have something to do with the Apple?

luckyto
09-22-2011, 08:24 AM
Wow, coincidence, hrmm, I just posted a youtube edit of that sequence. I've been watching repeatedly for a week. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...t=SP397833FF64F4AA5E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbJjejQFGKo&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=SP397833FF64F4AA5E)

My thought is that the knife was poisoned with some kind of sleeping potion/mix. That's what I always imagined. The Old Man on the Mountain stabs Altair in a place that Maulim knew shouldn't kill him, and I'm thinking that he blacks out from the poison.

But it could be the Apple. Never thought about that, though I didn't think Altair was affected by the Apple much. But what is the "sleep of the dead"? Sounds like ancient folk medicine to me.

johnnyhayek
09-22-2011, 08:46 AM
You have good points. I don't know why this scene suddenly appeared in my head. It kinda made me wonder. It's been 2 years since I've played AC1.

RzaRecta357
09-22-2011, 08:57 AM
I've always just assumed that it was some sort of heart slowing poison on the blade. But then again, he did have the apple. He can make people see whatever he wants.

Vice8641
09-22-2011, 09:15 AM
I replayed the game a while ago, and I'm not exactly sure why, but I'm positive that there's a line Al Mualim says that immediately made me realise that he used the Apple to create an illusion. I'll try to find it.

What I'm more curious about is how Ezio recovered from the TWO stabs he took. I guess the one from Checco Orsi is understandable, since he blacks out and wakes up at Caterina's house - she probably mended his wounds and, Ezio being a descendant of TWCB, he recovered even faster than usual from it.
But the stab from Rodrigo Borgia puzzles me. He just gets up like nothing happened and proceeds to engage in a fist fight with the pope. xD There's nothing at the beginning of Brotherhood either that would explain it. I suppose it was a vision created by the apple as well? :/

But then again, shouldn't descendants of TWCB be immune to the mind control abilities of the Apple? Argh, so confusing! :P

johnnyhayek
09-22-2011, 09:26 AM
Don't forget that Ezio also took 3 gun shots when Monterrigioni was attacked and still got up and fought. Though he passed out on his way to Rome.

SteelCity999
09-22-2011, 09:37 AM
*** Spoilers may be ahead ***

So maybe the Apple is acting like a transmitter. Al Mualim wanted Altair to see homself get stabbed as an illusion much like the illusion of multiple Al Mualims at the end of the game.

Rodrigo Borgia thought about killing Ezio so thats what appeared to happen but did't in reality.

So maybe we can also say that maybe Desmond just thinks he stabs Lucy but really doesn't. He lapses into a coma because he thinks he did. Nobody ever said that Lucy is dead. Nobody else seems to have died either.

The Apple is all about illusion so who knows...

johnnyhayek
09-22-2011, 09:41 AM
You know, we can probably connect what happened between Al Mualim and Altair, with what happened between Desmond and Lucy at the end of ACB.

Will_Lucky
09-22-2011, 11:25 AM
Illusions, Al Mualim showed Altair exactly what he wanted him to see.

I've also seen a theory that Ezio showed Rodrigo stabbing him in order to think he was incapacitated and would lead him to the vault hence his ability to continue and fight the Pope.

Poodle_of_Doom
09-22-2011, 11:54 AM
As it pertains to Ezio, there may be a more subtle physiological reason to all this. It's actually a fact that if you have more muscle mass, your body produces more blood cells to accommodate this. More blood means more nutrients, and oxygen, which in turn means a higher metabolism. All this means that one would be less susceptible to blood loss, cell damage, and shock.

The only thing left to consider is all the running around, and fighting that Ezio does. This could explain why Ezio, with his adrenaline pumping, could be stabbed, and act like nothing happened, or be stabbed a couple of times, and shot, and still live.

LightRey
09-22-2011, 12:05 PM
People, it was the apple. Simple as that.

luckyto
09-22-2011, 12:10 PM
Why call it "sleep of the dead"? And he's not holding the Apple.

LightRey
09-22-2011, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by luckyto:
Why call it "sleep of the dead"? And he's not holding the Apple.
He's not holding the apple because he's already finished.

there's no poison in the world that can make someone control the hallucinations of their victim. The only thing Al Mualim had that could even come close to the kind of control he had over Alta´r was the apple.

luckyto
09-22-2011, 12:17 PM
All it did was put him to sleep. Maulim gave him a lecture in front of everyone, stabs him and Altair blacks out. No complex illusion. Just a simple drug and poof*** unconscious for days.

Al Mualim also states later that he could not control Altair like the "others." But he can force him to go into a coma?

albertwesker22
09-22-2011, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
People, it was the apple. Simple as that.

I thought Altair was immune to the mind controlling effects of the Apple.

LightRey
09-22-2011, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by luckyto:
All it did was put him to sleep. Maulim gave him a lecture in front of everyone, stabs him and Altair blacks out. No complex illusion. Just a simple drug and poof*** unconscious for days.

Al Mualim also states later that he could not control Altair like the "others." But he can force him to go into a coma?
Alta´r didn't have any stab wound after he woke up. And no, you can't stab someone like that and only a little later he wakes up and walks around like nothing happened.

Alta´r's immune to the mind control, not the illusions.

Windrius
09-22-2011, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by luckyto:
Al Mualim also states later that he could not control Altair like the "others." But he can force him to go into a coma?

He can't CONTROL him, but he can still create some illusions(the final battle between Altair and Al Mualim is enough proof I think). Maybe it all happened in a few seconds without Altair realising it.

blazefp
09-22-2011, 12:28 PM
He wasn't immune till the last part of the game. He learned to "see beyond the illusion".

This part you'r talking about was just an illusion created by Al Mualim with the apple so that Altair would follow his orders after that.

This was already discussed in many threads, this is the only logical explanation

luckyto
09-22-2011, 12:30 PM
Did he not have a stab wound? I don't remember that. Even being an illusion? How do you force someone to physically black out? There's no DNA record from that point on, so he must have lost complete consciousness.

LightRey
09-22-2011, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by blazefp:
He wasn't immune till the last part of the game. He learned to "see beyond the illusion".

This part you'r talking about was just an illusion created by Al Mualim with the apple so that Altair would follow his orders after that.

This was already discussed in many threads, this is the only logical explanation
Exactly. Also, Alta´r was only confirmed to be immune to the mind control after Al Mualim attempted to use the apple on him when he showed it to him in his study (I think it was sequence 4 or 5).

Will_Lucky
09-22-2011, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
Alta´r's immune to the mind control, not the illusions.

Precisely, he isn't completely immune to the effects of the Apple, the final battle and the way Al Mualim/Rodrigo hold both Altair and Ezio in place is proof to of this if they were completely immune the final battles would have been an easy matter for them.

LightRey
09-22-2011, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Will_Lucky:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
Alta´r's immune to the mind control, not the illusions.

Precisely, he isn't completely immune to the effects of the Apple, the final battle and the way Al Mualim/Rodrigo hold both Altair and Ezio in place is proof to of this if they were completely immune the final battles would have been an easy matter for them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Indeed. Both of them used invisibility and Al Mualim also did things like making Ezio's opponents in the battle look like the 9 Templars he'd killed.

Dieinthedark
09-23-2011, 04:42 PM
Altair was stabbed because there was blood. As far as how it works, I gave up trying to decide. I eventually settled on it was just part of making the story mysterious. Either that or Ubi couldn't think of anything either.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

blazefp
09-23-2011, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Dieinthedark:
Altair was stabbed because there was blood.

??? So in a supposed hallucination if someone bleeds means it isn't a hallucination? I don't get your logic.

LightRey
09-23-2011, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by blazefp:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dieinthedark:
Altair was stabbed because there was blood.

??? So in a supposed hallucination if someone bleeds means it isn't a hallucination? I don't get your logic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
yeah, that doesn't make any sense at all. Besides, there was no blood afterwards (during his talk with Al Mualim about him "sleeping the sleep of the dead" etc. Not to mention his movement wasn't impaired at all.

Dieinthedark
09-23-2011, 05:05 PM
I mean when you're viewing the memory and Al Mualim stabs Altair, there is blood. Are you saying that whole speech he gave about everyone dying being altairs fault was part of the hallucination?

LightRey
09-23-2011, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by Dieinthedark:
I mean when you're viewing the memory and Al Mualim stabs Altair, there is blood. Are you saying that whole speech he gave about everyone dying being altairs fault was part of the hallucination?
Of course. The whole thing was an hallucination.

Dieinthedark
09-23-2011, 05:11 PM
From when to when? The attack on the village, the rescue, the counter-attack and the stabing? I'm not sure what you mean.

LightRey
09-23-2011, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Dieinthedark:
From when to when? The attack on the village, the rescue, the counter-attack and the stabing? I'm not sure what you mean.
The whole speech about how he'd broken the tenets right up to his execution.

Dieinthedark
09-23-2011, 05:19 PM
Ok, well I'm not disagreeing but why would just that part be a hallucination? Or are you just given possibilities?

blazefp
09-23-2011, 05:21 PM
I'm not sure now and because it's the Assassins we are talking about I don't know if this makes sense but the people in the background also looked kinda zombies. No expressions, seeing a great assassin that has already saved the creed at least once, with 17 years old, being stabbed by Al Mualim just because he was arrogant. Idk but I think that if that was a real thing, people would react more.
Besides, after that event, no one talks about it. It's incredible how the grand master of the Assassins stabs the great Assassin Altair in front of everyone and then, in the next day, he's fine again, walking among everyone else and with a mission in hands.

Just to ensure the point

LightRey
09-23-2011, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Dieinthedark:
Ok, well I'm not disagreeing but why would just that part be a hallucination? Or are you just given possibilities?
Because for one, Al Mualim wanted to teach Alta´r a lesson, but he needed him alive. The whole attack was obviously not part of the illusion since it was caused directly because of what happened in Solomon's temple, not to mention that the battle had consequences later on in the game, because the Templar forces had been crippled. I'm also quite sure that there's a memory fast-forward right before the part I'm saying is the illusion and the sequence ends after that part.

Dieinthedark
09-23-2011, 05:23 PM
Yeah, and the very first part when Desmond tries to synch with Altair. Altair is in the courtyard where the final battle is and I assure you, those people have no faces whatsoever. Kinda strange!

LightRey
09-23-2011, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Dieinthedark:
Yeah, and the very first part when Desmond tries to synch with Altair. Altair is in the courtyard where the final battle is and I assure you, those people have no faces whatsoever. Kinda strange!
That is because they were trying to synch Desmond with the final sequence in AC1 and it didn't work well, causing stuff to become scrambled. It failed, resulting in Desmond having to go through a series of memories leading up to the memory they wanted to get to, so that he'd be able to synchronize better with Alta´r and would be able to access the memory.

Dieinthedark
09-23-2011, 05:35 PM
Yeah, I guess that doesn't really make sense or pertain to this discussion.

rileypoole1234
09-23-2011, 07:08 PM
I honestly thought he stabbed him, but being extremely tough and well trained, he was able to live through it. Ezio was shot, and he was fine, also after passing out. Ezio was actually also stabbed, but i'm not sure if you should count that because he had Altair's unbreakable armour on.

Jexx21
09-23-2011, 08:07 PM
Altiar was stabbed in the liver. Ezio was shot in the shoulder.

Big difference.

rileypoole1234
09-23-2011, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Jexx21:
Altiar was stabbed in the liver. Ezio was shot in the shoulder.

Big difference.

It's not like being shot doesn't hurt mate. Ezio was also barely hit with a cannonball in Spain. I think Ezio has actually stabbed twice instead of once.

SleezeRocker
09-23-2011, 10:55 PM
Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale Kouloun Mumkine.

Blind2Society
09-24-2011, 12:16 AM
Is this debate still raging? Al Mualim said what happened. He never stabbed Altair, he used the apple to create an illusion. He mentioned (possibly in the same conversion) that this is what the apple does, it creates illusions and things such as 'the Red Sea was never parted'.

Sleeze check the request thread for your sig.

CRUDFACE
09-24-2011, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Blind2Society:
Is this debate still raging? Al Mualim said what happened. He never stabbed Altair, he used the apple to create an illusion. He mentioned (possibly in the same conversion) that this is what the apple does, it creates illusions and things such as 'the Red Sea was never parted'.

Sleeze check the request thread for your sig.

He said what the apple does, but never says that he outright created an illusion to do so to him. Plus it seems that Altair can see when he uses the apple. Kind of like the final boss battle. You see him using the apple, THEN the illusions show up. even then Altair can see through them using Eagle vision.

Ezio was shot once, stabbed twice and fell off a building. though there was frsh hay for him to fall on. Mmmm, hay.

@Lightrey: do you remember how long our conversation was on this...was like more than two pages...

Blind2Society
09-24-2011, 01:26 AM
Actually yes, yes he did. I believe his exact words were "you saw what I wanted you to see". If that isn't enough for you he most certainly implied it.

Also, they obviously couldn't show Al Mualim using the apple at that point of the game or the rest of the game would be ruined so...

CRUDFACE
09-24-2011, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by Blind2Society:
Actually yes, yes he did. I believe his exact words were "you saw what I wanted you to see". If that isn't enough for you he most certainly implied it.

Also, they obviously couldn't show Al Mualim using the apple at that point of the game or the rest of the game would be ruined so...

Indeed. I think he'd need eagle vision on to see through it. Just feels weird to me because people like Desmond and Altair alongside Ezio can't have their minds controlled so I thought that would reach to having illusions casts.

Well they can see through with a little more ability thrown in.

Blind2Society
09-24-2011, 01:34 AM
I think it had to do with Altair being young, naive, and easily influenced at the time.

RzaRecta357
09-24-2011, 03:09 AM
Exactly as Blind says.

He was arrogant and ignorant and not open minded like when Al Muahlim tries again in the study.


Like, people use that apple to part seas and to sneak soldiers in a giant horse. Jesus used it to fool people for 2012 years straight.

And you're saying that pretending to stab Altair with it is a big deal? :P

LightRey
09-24-2011, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by Blind2Society:
I think it had to do with Altair being young, naive, and easily influenced at the time.
I would think so too. Besides, Alta´r only seems able to see through (some) illusions when he's aware that they are illusions.

PM721998
02-26-2014, 01:49 AM
There is one thing I never understood in AC1. Al Mualim stabbed Altair in the stomach after he broke the tenets of the creed. After that, Altair is alive, standing right in front of Al Mualim's desk. All that Al Mualim said is "You saw what I wanted you to see, and you slept the sleep of the dead" or something along those lines. So, I never understood what happened there? Why is Altair alive? Why does he wake up standing in front of a desk? Does it have something to do with the Apple?
Al Mualim says it had to do with the apple. Altair hadn't gone on his Templar hunt yet, so his mind wasn't "opened", and he was susceptible to the Apple's illusions.

PM721998
02-26-2014, 01:54 AM
I replayed the game a while ago, and I'm not exactly sure why, but I'm positive that there's a line Al Mualim says that immediately made me realise that he used the Apple to create an illusion. I'll try to find it.

What I'm more curious about is how Ezio recovered from the TWO stabs he took. I guess the one from Checco Orsi is understandable, since he blacks out and wakes up at Caterina's house - she probably mended his wounds and, Ezio being a descendant of TWCB, he recovered even faster than usual from it.
But the stab from Rodrigo Borgia puzzles me. He just gets up like nothing happened and proceeds to engage in a fist fight with the pope. xD There's nothing at the beginning of Brotherhood either that would explain it. I suppose it was a vision created by the apple as well? :/

But then again, shouldn't descendants of TWCB be immune to the mind control abilities of the Apple? Argh, so confusing! :P

Ezio was wearing the Armor of Altair, so I doubt the wound went in deep enough to be deadly.

LoyalACFan
02-26-2014, 01:55 AM
4 z epic necroooo

Dome500
02-26-2014, 01:57 AM
4 z epic necroooo

Lol, just lol

I think that's even a forum-wide thread-necro record....

dbzk1999
02-26-2014, 04:01 AM
Al Mualim says it had to do with the apple. Altair hadn't gone on his Templar hunt yet, so his mind wasn't "opened", and he was susceptible to the Apple's illusions.
He still was immune to its effects
All this with a good TWCB DNA (clay desmond ezio Altair etc.) have immunity because
They lack a neuro transmitter that responds to the apple as a result of breeding between TWCB and humans

MustaviSadi
12-12-2015, 09:40 AM
Altair survived being stabbed by Al Mualim (Rashid-ad-Din Sinan) due to two reasons:

1. Adrenaline rush
2. Tough leather belt to protect his belly
3. Immunity to the Apple's mind-controling effects.

Also, Al Mualim may have used the Apple to make sure that Altair did not die, as the Apple can make imaginations and thoughts reality.

cawatrooper9
12-14-2015, 04:01 PM
Yeah, I think this sequence was just a very overt way of developing Mualim's more subtle characteristics- his manipulation and his apparent willingness to turn on his brothers.



I've also seen a theory that Ezio showed Rodrigo stabbing him in order to think he was incapacitated and would lead him to the vault hence his ability to continue and fight the Pope.
Possible, but doesn't Ezio mention being stabbed to Mario later? Why would he lie to his uncle, then?

Ureh
12-14-2015, 08:38 PM
Possible, but doesn't Ezio mention being stabbed to Mario later? Why would he lie to his uncle, then?

Yeah he mentioned being wounded by the Pope, once to Mario, when they were escaping the city and possibility another time in Monteriggioni (perhaps during the meeting).

That's a pretty old post though and Will hasn't signed in for a few months.

cawatrooper9
12-15-2015, 03:59 PM
That's a pretty old post though and Will hasn't signed in for a few months.

Ah, someone resurrected it and I didn't look at the date of what I was responding to. Oops!