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View Full Version : OT(?): Strafing in movies is still cartoonish



Lurch1962
02-08-2007, 06:38 PM
Lads,
Haven't yet seen "Letters From Iwo Jima" (nor Flags of our Fathers) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif , but the couple of times I did see the trailer for "Iwo" I was kind of surprised to see the usual treatment of aircraft strafing hits, in much the way it's been done for decades.

In the scene in question, a running Japanese soldier is cut down by the so-often-seen dual stream of bullets which are walking toward him in a tidily straight line, each ground hit appearing to be equally spaced to almost micrometric precision. Moreover, the dual bullet stream nicely straddles the poor guy, passing by on his left and right.

When "hit" he throws up his arms before falling (in reality does anyone flail his arms skyward when mortally wounded?), although clearly as represented no bullet could have struck him directly. With a Corsair doing the firing, it's not likely the rounds were explosive, so could it have been sand "shrapnel" cutting down the man? (He asks ironically.)

Just one example from the almost countless such instances to be found in the movies...

As all of us have observed in gun cam footage of strafing runs, rarely if ever does a bullet stream make ruler-straight lines across the ground. More common to see is something resembling a scattergun-like peppering of the area, or rapidly snaking impact patterns if the aircraft is maneuvering to any degree.

Lest you think this rambling will detract from my expected enjoyment of these two films of Eastwood's, fear not! They WILL occupy hallowed places in my growing WWII movie collection.

--Lurch--

SeaFireLIV
02-08-2007, 06:46 PM
I`m sure someone has real life gun cam of the strafing lines of aircraft gun fire on the ground, whether straight lines or a straggling zig-zag... Anyone?

I agree with your basic sentiments though.

Snodrvr
02-08-2007, 07:24 PM
I think movie makers probably have gotten in the habit of having two straigh lines to represent strafing because of technological limitations in the earlier days. In order to simulate bullet strikes and to be safe they used (and for the most part, still use) small little explosives (called squibs) covered in sand to simulate the bullets hitting the ground.

The easiest way to make it look as if a plane is strafing, is to have two or more sets of squibs layed out on an electrical circuit so that they all fire in sequence.

Trying to simulate the more random spray we see in gun cam footages using squibs wouldn't be worth the extra time and money it would take to simulate.

Treetop64
02-08-2007, 08:07 PM
Agree with your sentiment, Lurch. Though by now CG can do a lot about correcting hit patterns on the ground, as well as rendering a realistic effect of a man being struck by aircraft fire.

And Seafire; that is a most interesting piece of work in your sig. Looking at it one actually feels frightened for our hapless hero in the cockpit.

jarink
02-08-2007, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by Lurch1962:
In the scene in question, a running Japanese soldier is cut down by the so-often-seen dual stream of bullets which are walking toward him in a tidily straight line, each ground hit appearing to be equally spaced to almost micrometric precision. Moreover, the dual bullet stream nicely straddles the poor guy, passing by on his left and right.

If it wasn't done in this ridiculous fashion, 99% of the audience wouldn't know what it was.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

horseback
02-08-2007, 09:10 PM
Agreed with the earlier post. Movie 'strafing conventions' allow the audience to figure out what it was that killed the poor guy. A realistic portrayal of a human being being hit by multiple rounds of .50 would look a lot like someone tossed him into a blender at medium speed.

As for people throwing up their arms when killed, it happens sometime, but in this case it is again a theatrical convention, allowing an anonymous actor to display his dramatic 'chops'.

cheers

horseback

partic_3
02-08-2007, 11:19 PM
Good point about the realism. After all, they don't want to have to hose all that vomit out of the cinema after every session. Also, if people knew how ugly war really was, no-one would fight... and then where would we be?

Akronnick
02-08-2007, 11:27 PM
I'm gonna tell you guys a little secret about movies:


Everything you see on that screen is FAKE!!!!

WWSensei
02-09-2007, 06:27 AM
While the point is valid I don't sweat it. Compared to all the other non-historic, cliche'd and badly done war movie scenes the dual bullet stream is one of the least offensive abominations.

woofiedog
02-09-2007, 06:36 AM
I read the book when it came out a few years back... and really looking forward to seeing the movie.
But movies are movies... if you want a story from the book. You have too read the Book! LoL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Breeze147
02-09-2007, 06:43 AM
I would love to participate in this debate but I am afraid of being sent to detention again.

ploughman
02-09-2007, 07:00 AM
I was going to say, but someone beat me too it, that a realistic portrayal of someone getting hit by a stream of .50 cal rounds would have most of the theatre vomitting.

DuxCorvan
02-09-2007, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
I was going to say, but someone beat me too it, that a realistic portrayal of someone getting hit by a stream of .50 cal rounds would have most of the theatre vomitting.

Imagine a 30mm hit right on the back. Half body would explode like a mellon. The DVD would be placed in the shelves among the gore horror movies.

TheVoodooPriest
02-09-2007, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I`m sure someone has real life gun cam of the strafing lines of aircraft gun fire on the ground, whether straight lines or a straggling zig-zag... Anyone?

I agree with your basic sentiments though.

I just found THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se6rq8vean8).
It's a compilation of various gun-camera clips and besides aircombat shows some strafing especially at near the end. It really doesn't look like straight lines.

BaronUnderpants
02-09-2007, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by Lurch1962:
Lads,
Haven't yet seen "Letters From Iwo Jima" (nor Flags of our Fathers) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif , but the couple of times I did see the trailer for "Iwo" I was kind of surprised to see the usual treatment of aircraft strafing hits, in much the way it's been done for decades.

In the scene in question, a running Japanese soldier is cut down by the so-often-seen dual stream of bullets which are walking toward him in a tidily straight line, each ground hit appearing to be equally spaced to almost micrometric precision. Moreover, the dual bullet stream nicely straddles the poor guy, passing by on his left and right.

When "hit" he throws up his arms before falling (in reality does anyone flail his arms skyward when mortally wounded?), although clearly as represented no bullet could have struck him directly. With a Corsair doing the firing, it's not likely the rounds were explosive, so could it have been sand "shrapnel" cutting down the man? (He asks ironically.)

Just one example from the almost countless such instances to be found in the movies...

As all of us have observed in gun cam footage of strafing runs, rarely if ever does a bullet stream make ruler-straight lines across the ground. More common to see is something resembling a scattergun-like peppering of the area, or rapidly snaking impact patterns if the aircraft is maneuvering to any degree.

Lest you think this rambling will detract from my expected enjoyment of these two films of Eastwood's, fear not! They WILL occupy hallowed places in my growing WWII movie collection.

--Lurch--



Agree.

Why and how someone would strafe a singel soldier is another discussion altogheter. ( Havent seen the movie so maby there is a logical explenation )

Tater-SW-
02-09-2007, 09:28 AM
Yeah, they'd have to really think to realize that the pattern on the ground would be out of convergence, narroring to converence, then out again as the plane got closer. Add in dispersion, yawing of the plane (intentional and unintentional), and you simple see a beaten zone---particularly at the sum ROF of US planes with 6x50 firing.

Harry_M
02-09-2007, 10:10 AM
"Bridges at Toko-Ri" did it pretty well when the spads were strafing the Chi-Comms at the end, just a messy rolling cloud of dirt erupted around them (you would expect from 20MM).

SeaFireLIV
02-09-2007, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by TheVoodooPriest:
[QUOTE]
I just found THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se6rq8vean8).
It's a compilation of various gun-camera clips and besides aircombat shows some strafing especially at near the end. It really doesn't look like straight lines.


It clearly isn`t. It`s mostly a mash of tracers throwing up the earth all over the place whe it hits. It certainly isn`t neat straight lines. Interesting to note how the gun`s conversion point is over lapped before hitting the ground, spraying shot all over even more.

Thanks, TheVoodooPriest.

woofiedog
02-09-2007, 12:52 PM
TheVoodooPriest... Excellent find on the P-47 video clips.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/woofiedog/ScreenShot011.jpg

From republic p47 thunderbolt 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLVGsGIf5S8&mode=related&search=

Haigotron
02-09-2007, 03:00 PM
Everything you see on that screen is FAKE!!!!

BAN THIS MAN!

dugong
02-09-2007, 03:47 PM
Not hat at matters, but I thought it was against the Geneva Convention to fire .50's or larger at infantry? Or is the cutoff point at .50? If so, would that include aircraft guns?

I am not even sure when the Geneva Convention was drafted?

berg417448
02-09-2007, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by dugong:
Not hat at matters, but I thought it was against the Geneva Convention to fire .50's or larger at infantry? Or is the cutoff point at .50? If so, would that include aircraft guns?

I am not even sure when the Geneva Convention was drafted?


Sources I've checked say that this is a myth.

boxmike
02-09-2007, 04:20 PM
Cannot remember but there exist some movies with random hit pattern to the ground, say, more realistic.
What comes the linear puffs on the ground, I accepted them in 'McGyver' at '80s but 'Pearl Harbor' made them ridiculous. Reminds me of Russian MGs in IL-2, totally tie fighter stuff.

Rgds,
- box

RCAF_Irish_403
02-09-2007, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by dugong:
Not hat at matters, but I thought it was against the Geneva Convention to fire .50's or larger at infantry? Or is the cutoff point at .50? If so, would that include aircraft guns?

I am not even sure when the Geneva Convention was drafted?

not sure, but the ban on using AA guns against infantry might only apply to explosive ordinance http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Bo_Nidle
02-09-2007, 04:44 PM
originally posted by Jarink

If it wasn't done in this ridiculous fashion, 99% of the audience wouldn't know what it was.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif[/QUOTE]

There you have it!

For every one of us that knows something about it in the audience theres a theatre full that don't!

How often have you pointed out an error to others to be met with the response "Does it matter?" or "Dad, don't be so sad!"

Heathens! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

jarink
02-09-2007, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by Akronnick:
Everything you see on that screen is FAKE!!!!

You haven't heard about the movie "Factory Girl" with Sienna Miller, have you?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Report: Sienna Miller's 'Factory Girl' S*x Scenes the Real Thing (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,248969,00.html)

WarWolfe_1
02-09-2007, 06:18 PM
Real life is never real in movies....but then again sometimes real life could seem like a movie.

When watching a movie this is something to remeber.

Pickup a few books of oral histories and you will see what I mean.

Rjel
02-09-2007, 06:29 PM
I think the film FIGHTER SQUADRON pretty well captures the strafing effect. The movie itself is pretty lame, but the flying segments are good. The pictures here reportedly show former Eagle Sqd and 4thFG ace Lee Grover simulating a strafing run. During one strafing run, Grover was quoted as saying he flew in so low that the extras dove for cover too soon, blowing several hours worth of special effects work.

http://home.comcast.net/~rjelmiles/Fighter_Sqd_2.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rjelmiles/Fighter_Sqd_3.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rjelmiles/Fighter_Sqd_4.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rjelmiles/Fighter_Sqd_5.jpg

ploughman
02-09-2007, 06:32 PM
I dig the big effing swastika on the side of the wagon just to let teh viewers know who the bad guys are.

Very dusty, did anyone get hurt?

SeaFireLIV
02-10-2007, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
"Dad, don't be so sad!"

Heathens! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I know that!