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View Full Version : Dive and zoom. E-machines comparison..



robban75
01-07-2006, 05:33 AM
I did this test over Crimea. I started the dive at 3000m. I read the speed and time at every 500m passed. At 1500m I began the pull-up. I tried my best to reach the same level altitude for all planes. But it was close to impossible. So there are variations. Full fuel for all except the P-47 and P-51 which had 50% fuel. Default loadout and full power and boost.

Dive and climb angle 30 degrees.

Planes are.

Fw 190A-5, Fw 190D-9 '44, La-5FN, La-7, P-47D '44, P-51D20/NA and Spitfire MkVIII

Alt -- A-5 - D-9 - La5 - La7 - P47 - P51 - VIII

3000 - 303 - 303 - 303 - 303 - 303 - 303 - 303
2500 - 495 - 502 - 500 - 502 - 506 - 508 - 501
2000 - 616 - 626 - 622 - 628 - 625 - 629 - 618
1500 - 703 - 718 - 710 - 719 - 712 - 720 - 699
Level- 723 - 742 - 727 - 732 - 736 - 743 - 716
1500 - 651 - 675 - 665 - 678 - 662 - 677 - 636
2000 - 541 - 575 - 560 - 577 - 557 - 577 - 525
2500 - 429 - 476 - 448 - 470 - 453 - 474 - 416
3000 - 305 - 375 - 328 - 357 - 353 - 372 - 316
3250 - 250 - 328 - 266 - 304 - 307 - 319 - 276
3500 - N/A - 289 - N/A - 256 - 267 - 269 - N/A

Altitude(m) when level

A-5 - 1220
D-9 - 1240
La5 - 1270
La7 - 1290
P47 - 1240
P51 - 1240
VIII - 1250

Time at altitudes

Alt -- A-5 - D-9 - La5 - La7 - P47 - P51 - VIII

3000 -0:00 -0:00 -0:00 -0:00 -0:00 -0:00 -0:00
2500 -0:11 -0:10 -0:10 -0:11 -0:11 -0:11 -0:10
2000 -0:16 -0:16 -0:16 -0:16 -0:17 -0:16 -0:16
1500 -0:21 -0:21 -0:21 -0:21 -0:21 -0:21 -0:20
Level-0:26 -0:25 -0:25 -0:24 -0:25 -0:25 -0:24
1500 -0:30 -0:30 -0:29 -0:28 -0:30 -0:29 -0:30
2000 -0:36 -0:35 -0:34 -0:33 -0:36 -0:35 -0:36
2500 -0:44 -0:42 -0:42 -0:40 -0:43 -0:42 -0:44
3000 -0:55 -0:51 -0:51 -0:49 -0:52 -0:50 -0:54
3250 -1:03 -0:57 -0:58 -0:55 -0:58 -0:56 -1:02
3500 - N/A -1:04 - N/A -1:03 -1:06 -1:03 - N/A

Anybody interested in making charts? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Brain32
01-07-2006, 07:08 AM
Great work as usual http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

robban75
01-07-2006, 07:23 AM
Thanks Brain. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I will probably add some more planes, as well as making the test at different dive/climb angles. There are noticable differences between the planes as you can see. Correct or not, Oleg and staff has done one h-ll of a job! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

lbhskier37
01-07-2006, 09:25 AM
Spit VIII 190A is the most interesting comparison to me. Kinda puts numbers onto something most have known for a while about light planes.

Brain32
01-07-2006, 09:34 AM
I will probably add some more planes, as well as making the test at different dive/climb angles.

When you're at it could you please test SpitfireMkIXe HF, that one is a real killer...

Sturm_Williger
01-07-2006, 09:42 AM
Those numbers look a bit worrying - according to those tests, none of those planes could successfully dive away from any of the others.

I'm no expert, but shouldn't the Fw and P47 be better divers than the others ? They all look very close to me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Brain32
01-07-2006, 09:55 AM
Those numbers look a bit worrying - according to those tests, none of those planes could successfully dive away from any of the others.

Yes, but this is under test condicions, in combat you will extremely rare be in situation where you and your opponent are at exactly same E-state(speed/altitude) in adition to this fact you have to count in elevator authority and roll ability, so this numbers can change in combat this shows their diving/zooming capatibilities in same condicions and can help you to estimate in which situation you can get advantage and aproxx by how much http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif. I find it very usefull...

Hetzer_II
01-07-2006, 10:05 AM
Big question from school time..
Which one is falling faster? A light stone or a heavy stone?

a)without air
b)with air

And why whichone is falling faster in air?

cheers...

WWMaxGunz
01-07-2006, 10:06 AM
Look at the planes chosen. 190A-5 is the least of them all. That, La5FN and Spit VIII are
the oldest. WTH do people expect? Those things ain't spacecraft, they are WWII PROPS!

The real big difference between this series and others is that you don't have to fly well
in what came before. The older the sim, the more you were just pointing the plane and it
would go at the most efficient rate in that direction. The older the sim, the more 'Ace'
you automatically were. So we get a sim where the small things matter and the former sim
self-regarded aces are struggling, things don't work so well it must be a flaw.

In the real war a better pilot in a "lesser" plane could wax the other given an opening
which often enough he would create and the other would "help"... if he ever saw the other.

Read Bud Anderson's account of his closest/best dogfight against the 109's that bounced
his group of 4 P-51's. It ended after 2 zooms where the 109 pilot who was good still
blew E both times just before the zooms (don't miss that part) and the advantage of the
P-51 both times was very small and close. The real advantage was the piloting, Anderson
conserved speed better. Go look it up, I'm tired of typing links as I've never been able
to paste into an UBI forum window yet.

WWMaxGunz
01-07-2006, 10:11 AM
Hey Hetzer, just a joke I guess but to point out;

I take two balls of the same density but one is much smaller therefore lighter.
How do the terminal velocities compare?

The heavier should fall faster because it is bigger and has bigger Reynolds Number.
But no other reason as the densities are the same.

...........................

Now talk of same size balls with different densities and there is different. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

CMHQ_Rikimaru
01-07-2006, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Look at the planes chosen. 190A-5 is the least of them all. That, La5FN and Spit VIII are
the oldest.


HAHAHHAHAH La5FN is the oldest? Im sick of this what are u saying, u are blind, or u just cant understand that this game is russian simulator, not WWII simulator. There isnt much difference between A5, A6 and A9. But well, i hope Robban will make tests of them too, and u will shut up forever.

Hetzer_II
01-07-2006, 11:01 AM
y Hetzer, just a joke I guess but to point out;
...

Good joke.. that was exactly what i mean....

;-)

but how much the reynolds numbers would differ between a 47 and a 109 i.e. ?

robban75
01-07-2006, 03:41 PM
Same procedure.

Planes are.

Spitfire MkIXe HF, Yak-3, Yak-9U, P-38L(late), Bf 109K-4, Fw 190D-9 '45, Fw 190D-9 '44(50% fuel)

I had some problems with the P-38 because of the stiff elevator at the higher speeds. Therefore I used alot of trim which caused a rather rapid pull up(compared to the other planes at least). The pilot actually started to black out. Nevertheless, the P-38 proves to have excellent dive and zooming abilities.

Alt -- IXe - Y-3 - Y9U - P38 - K-4 - D-9 - D-9


3000 - 303 - 303 - 303 - 303 - 303 - 303 - 303
2500 - 500 - 503 - 508 - 515 - 518 - 499 - 504
2000 - 616 - 624 - 626 - 630 - 635 - 621 - 627
1500 - 696 - 713 - 715 - 718 - 718 - 713 - 718
Level - 701 - 735 - 733 - 721 - 731 - 740 - 738
1500 - 636 - 662 - 666 - 672 - 659 - 670 - 677
2000 - 524 - 556 - 563 - 568 - 556 - 569 - 576
2500 - 412 - 446 - 458 - 467 - 458 - 465 - 476
3000 - 309 - 338 - 354 - 369 - 370 - 365 - 379
3250 - 268 - 292 - 308 - 326 - 334 - 321 - 334
3500 - N/A - 252 - 272 - 288 - 305 - 282 - 297

Altitude(m) when level

IXe - 1280
Y-3 - 1230
Y9U - 1260
P38 - 1340
K-4 - 1230
D-9 - 1220('45 version)
D-9 - 1270('44 version 50 fuel)

Time at altitudes

Alt -- IXe - Y-3 - Y9U - P38 - K-4 - D-9 - D-9

3000 -0:00 -0:00 -0:00 -0:00 -0:00 -0:00 -0:00
2500 -0:10 -0:10 -0:10 -0:11 -0:11 -0:11 -0:11
2000 -0:16 -0:16 -0:16 -0:17 -0:16 -0:16 -0:16
1500 -0:20 -0:20 -0:20 -0:21 -0:20 -0:21 -0:21
Level-0:24 -0:24 -0:24 -0:24 -0:25 -0:25 -0:24
1500 -0:29 -0:28 -0:28 -0:26 -0:29 -0:29 -0:28
2000 -0:35 -0:34 -0:34 -0:32 -0:34 -0:35 -0:34
2500 -0:43 -0:41 -0:41 -0:39 -0:41 -0:42 -0:40
3000 -0:53 -0:51 -0:50 -0:48 -0:50 -0:51 -0:49
3250 -1:01 -0:57 -0:56 -0:53 -0:56 -0:57 -0:55
3500 - N/A -1:05 -1:03 -1:00 -1:02 -1:05 -1:02

WWMaxGunz
01-07-2006, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by CMHQ_Rikimaru:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Look at the planes chosen. 190A-5 is the least of them all. That, La5FN and Spit VIII are
the oldest.


HAHAHHAHAH La5FN is the oldest? Im sick of this what are u saying, u are blind, or u just cant understand that this game is russian simulator, not WWII simulator. There isnt much difference between A5, A6 and A9. But well, i hope Robban will make tests of them too, and u will shut up forever. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might have better English than some people from the US but you still need to learn more.
Last sentence begins with the word 'That' which refers to 190A-5 in previous sentence.
109A-5 is THE OLDEST of the bunch that I know of but those 3 are the oldest of the set as
a group -- depending on which model P-51 which maybe it should also be in oldest group.
That is oldest of those in Robbans test.

Not much difference between A-5 and A-9???? Right. You Is Sure.

robban75
01-07-2006, 04:37 PM
Slightly different procedure. I begin the dive at 400km/h instead of 300km/h.

Planes are the, Fw 190D-9 '44, P-51D20/NA(50% fuel) and La-7.

Alt -- D-9 - P51 - La7

3000 - 400 - 402 - 401
2500 - 572 - 574 - 570
2000 - 674 - 679 - 676
1500 - 756 - 760 - 754
Level - 767 - 783 - 774
1500 - 704 - 708 - 702
2000 - 605 - 609 - 602
2500 - 505 - 509 - 496
3000 - 404 - 406 - 386
3250 - 356 - 354 - 329
3500 - 312 - 300 - 277

Altitude(m) when level

D-9 - 1220
P51 - 1220
La7 - 1240

Time at altitudes

Alt -- D-9 - P51 - La7

3000 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01
2500 -0:10 -0:10 -0:10
2000 -0:15 -0:15 -0:15
1500 -0:20 -0:20 -0:20
Level-0:24 -0:24 -0:24
1500 -0:27 -0:28 -0:28
2000 -0:33 -0:34 -0:34
2500 -0:39 -0:40 -0:40
3000 -0:47 -0:48 -0:48
3250 -0:53 -0:53 -0:53
3500 -0:59 -0:59 -1:00

WWMaxGunz
01-07-2006, 04:49 PM
Robban, please start the dives at combat speeds for those planes.
300 kph starts definitely favor the higher thrust/weight planes which are ~generally~ lighter.

The test fits conditions that match the test. Too bad so many book stories don't tell all of
the conditions so we get complaints of those who think these dives are all dives, they seem
to know only the word dive and the names of planes or worse, it is Russian it must be slower.
And then I read of bias....

OldMan____
01-07-2006, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by robban75:
Slightly different procedure. I begin the dive at 400km/h instead of 300km/h.

Planes are the, Fw 190D-9 '44, P-51D20/NA(50% fuel) and La-7.

Alt -- D-9 - P51 - La7

3000 - 400 - 402 - 401
2500 - 572 - 574 - 570
2000 - 674 - 679 - 676
1500 - 756 - 760 - 754
Level - 767 - 783 - 774
1500 - 704 - 708 - 702
2000 - 605 - 609 - 602
2500 - 505 - 509 - 496
3000 - 404 - 406 - 386
3250 - 356 - 354 - 329
3500 - 312 - 300 - 277

Altitude(m) when level

D-9 - 1220
P51 - 1220
La7 - 1240

Time at altitudes

Alt -- D-9 - P51 - La7

3000 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01
2500 -0:10 -0:10 -0:10
2000 -0:15 -0:15 -0:15
1500 -0:20 -0:20 -0:20
Level-0:24 -0:24 -0:24
1500 -0:27 -0:28 -0:28
2000 -0:33 -0:34 -0:34
2500 -0:39 -0:40 -0:40
3000 -0:47 -0:48 -0:48
3250 -0:53 -0:53 -0:53
3500 -0:59 -0:59 -1:00

my god.. a test where the La7 looses!!!

The world is spinning around my head.....

faustnik
01-07-2006, 04:55 PM
My problem with this test is always dieciding where zoom climb ends and sustained climb begins.

robban75
01-07-2006, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Robban, please start the dives at combat speeds for those planes.
300 kph starts definitely favor the higher thrust/weight planes which are ~generally~ lighter.



In my last test I did increase the starting speed to 400km/h. I probably will try it at 500km/h as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

robban75
01-07-2006, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
My problem with this test is always dieciding where zoom climb ends and sustained climb begins.

For the D-9 and P-51, I'm guessing somewhere below 400km/h? Because that's were the D-9 starts to lose less speed compared to the P-51.

WWMaxGunz
01-07-2006, 05:18 PM
Sorry Robban but you are posting while I am typing and vice-versa. 400kph is good combat
speed when the planes have taken turns but not too far or are holding best sustained turn
speed in some cases.

I notice in the last one I see (D-9, P-51, La-7) that they all hit alts within one second
of each other despite varying speeds. Can the be following the same paths, dive angles?

robban75
01-07-2006, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Sorry Robban but you are posting while I am typing and vice-versa. 400kph is good combat
speed when the planes have taken turns but not too far or are holding best sustained turn
speed in some cases.

I notice in the last one I see (D-9, P-51, La-7) that they all hit alts within one second
of each other despite varying speeds. Can the be following the same paths, dive angles?

No problem! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I've tried to maintain a 30 degree dive and climb. Trimming the plane all the way down, and all the way up.

AKA_TAGERT
01-07-2006, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by robban75:
Anybody interested in making charts? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Sure, but I dont work from 2nd hand eye ball recorded notes, I only process the orginal track files.. So, Got Track? "

OldMan____
01-08-2006, 03:23 AM
One test that I, pingu and Ice made long time ago and I think is useful on this subject is. Make the maneuver with 3 planes at same time, one following the other (or at its side), so you can have areference to know if you pulled too much, too less etc...

CMHQ_Rikimaru
01-08-2006, 04:48 AM
Robban, could you make please tests of dive and climb zoom for A6,A8 and A9? I would really like to see difference between A5 and others.

robban75
01-08-2006, 05:57 AM
Starting speed 400km/h TAS.

Dive and climb angle 30 degrees.

Planes are.

Fw 190A-5, Fw 190A-9, Mustang III(50%fuel), P-47D '44(50%fuel), P-51B(50%fuel), P-63C(50%fuel) and Ta 152(50%fuel).

Alt -- A-5 - A-9 - III - P47 - P51 - P63 - 152

3000 - 400 - 400 - 400 - 400 - 400 - 400 - 400
2500 - 562 - 560 - 585 - 570 - 575 - 568 - 572
2000 - 665 - 665 - 692 - 671 - 677 - 673 - 673
1500 - 743 - 746 - 776 - 748 - 755 - 753 - 753
Level- 754 - 762 - 798 - 766 - 767 - 770 - 768
1500 - 684 - 684 - 734 - 690 - 704 - 705 - 699
2000 - 578 - 581 - 643 - 584 - 603 - 603 - 595
2500 - 468 - 471 - 551 - 481 - 501 - 499 - 493
3000 - 346 - 356 - 461 - 382 - 396 - 396 - 395
3250 - 287 - 298 - 414 - 334 - 344 - 347 - 350
3500 - N/A - N/A - 368 - 290 - 295 - 301 - 309
4000 - N/A - N/A - 277 - N/A - N/A - N/A - N/A

Altitude(m) when level

A-5 - 1260
A-9 - 1220
III - 1240
P47 - 1240
P51 - 1250
P63 - 1250
152 - 1240

Time at altitudes

Alt -- A-5 - A-9 - III - P47 - P51 - P63 - 152

3000 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01
2500 -0:09 -0:10 -0:10 -0:10 -0:11 -0:10 -0:09
2000 -0:14 -0:15 -0:14 -0:15 -0:16 -0:15 -0:14
1500 -0:19 -0:19 -0:19 -0:19 -0:20 -0:19 -0:19
Level-0:22 -0:23 -0:22 -0:23 -0:23 -0:23 -0:23
1500 -0:26 -0:27 -0:27 -0:27 -0:27 -0:27 -0:27
2000 -0:32 -0:33 -0:32 -0:33 -0:33 -0:32 -0:32
2500 -0:39 -0:40 -0:38 -0:40 -0:39 -0:39 -0:39
3000 -0:48 -0:49 -0:45 -0:48 -0:47 -0:47 -0:47
3250 -0:55 -0:56 -0:49 -0:54 -0:53 -0:52 -0:52
3500 - N/A - N/A -0:54 -1:00 -0:59 -0:58 -0:58
4000 - N/A - N/A -1:07 - N/A - N/A - N/A - N/A

robban75
01-08-2006, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by CMHQ_Rikimaru:
Robban, could you make please tests of dive and climb zoom for A6,A8 and A9? I would really like to see difference between A5 and others.

The A-5 and A-6 are identical in performance. Only the weapons differ. A-8 and A-9 are also quite similar, but not identical. The A-9 performs slightly better than the A-8.

Kocur_
01-08-2006, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by robban75:
Slightly different procedure. I begin the dive at 400km/h instead of 300km/h.

Planes are the, Fw 190D-9 '44, P-51D20/NA(50% fuel) and La-7.

Alt -- D-9 - P51 - La7

3000 - 400 - 402 - 401
2500 - 572 - 574 - 570
2000 - 674 - 679 - 676
1500 - 756 - 760 - 754
Level -767 - 783 - 774


Three planes of power in the same league and the only one with radial engine reaches similar to better speed in dive, where drag is the most important thing? How surprising...

Diablo310th
01-08-2006, 07:41 AM
something else very interesting is that the P-47D 44 is the slowest back to 3500m on the zoom climb. It's also almost the last in speed after 3000m in the pullup.

Brain32
01-08-2006, 10:17 AM
Hm, all this test clearly show the enormus "Blue" speed advantage, OMG how can "Red" even play like that...
Oleg quick, give them highly boosted versions of all planes even if they didn't exist, we need it to keep the game balanced http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif :

Mysha76
01-08-2006, 10:56 AM
seems to me, weight is not modeled good.
(inertia in climb after dive is not modeled as well...?)

it would be good to test planes with engines off, propeller pitch 0.

Danschnell
01-08-2006, 11:34 AM
Dive advantages are not modelled, and never have been. We'll have to wait for BOB for that I think.

robban75
01-08-2006, 11:36 AM
Starting speed 400km/h TAS.

Dive and climb angle 30 degrees.

Planes are.

Fw 190A-4, Bf 109G-2,La-5, La-5FN, P-40M, Spitfire MkVIII and Yak-3

Alt -- A-3 - G-2 - La5 - La5 - P40 - Spt - Yak

3000 - 400 - 400 - 400 - 400 - 400 - 400 - 400
2500 - 559 - 563 - 559 - 569 - 553 - 566 - 573
2000 - 659 - 659 - 658 - 671 - 644 - 664 - 673
1500 - 734 - 725 - 731 - 749 - 710 - 734 - 749
Level- 739 - 728 - 741 - 769 - 721 - 748 - 762
1500 - 668 - 651 - 666 - 691 - 630 - 660 - 693
2000 - 557 - 538 - 550 - 584 - 508 - 551 - 587
2500 - 439 - 426 - 433 - 474 - 380 - 440 - 479
3000 - 313 - 324 - 313 - 356 - 249 - 336 - 366
3250 - 254 - 283 - 255 - 295 - N/A - 290 - 315
3500 - N/A - 250 - N/A - N/A - N/A - 252 - 271

Altitude(m) when level

A-4 - 1260
G-2 - 1280
La5 - 1250
La5 - 1220
P40 - 1230
Spt - 1230
Yak - 1250

Time at altitudes

Alt -- A-3 - G-2 - La5 - La5 - P40 - Spt - Yak

3000 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01
2500 -0:10 -0:09 -0:09 -0:10 -0:10 -0:09 -0:11
2000 -0:15 -0:14 -0:14 -0:15 -0:15 -0:15 -0:15
1500 -0:19 -0:19 -0:19 -0:19 -0:20 -0:19 -0:20
Level-0:23 -0:23 -0:23 -0:23 -0:24 -0:22 -0:23
1500 -0:27 -0:27 -0:27 -0:28 -0:29 -0:28 -0:27
2000 -0:32 -0:33 -0:33 -0:33 -0:35 -0:33 -0:33
2500 -0:40 -0:41 -0:40 -0:40 -0:43 -0:41 -0:40
3000 -0:50 -0:51 -0:51 -0:49 -0:56 -0:50 -0:48
3250 -0:58 -0:57 -0:58 -0:55 - N/A -0:56 -0:54
3500 - N/A -1:05 - N/A - N/A - N/A -1:04 -1:01

robban75
01-08-2006, 11:43 AM
There are clear differences in dive and zoom performance between planes. There used to be no difference at all. I have no idea if the numbers are correct or not. IMO the Fw 190A series and P-47 doesn't seem to perform as good as they should.

Brain32
01-08-2006, 12:04 PM
Did anybody notice how La5FN kicks pretty much any plane on the list. Eats Spitfire for breakfast and asks for more http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

crazyivan1970
01-08-2006, 12:11 PM
Nice work as usualy robban... but i am curious, what`s the purpose of this post in ORR? I mean i would understand if you compared those numbers to RL ones.... and say they off, lets fix it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Not busting your chaps or anything... just reminding of the purpose of ORR http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers!

robban75
01-08-2006, 12:45 PM
Hi Ivan! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I've found that ORR is a better place to post in-game testings. I don't know why though. One reason I guess is because the thread will stay on top for longer. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The reason why I do these test is becaue people sometimes feel that their opponent did an impossible manouver, or caught them when they thought they were safe. I know I have been shot down many times when I thought I was safe. So naturally I was curious to find out why. Things change with every patch. And in 4.02 there seem to have been some major changes in the way planes build up energy in dives and sustain that energy when zooming up after the dive. The P-51 for example really shines in 4.02. In level flight its acceleration is poor, but if you dip the nose a few degrees below the horizon, man she goes!

I'm not saying what is correct or not. I let other people be the judge. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



Btw, here's another test. This time I used a shallower dive/climb angle of 15 degrees.

Fw 190D-9 '45 and P-51D20/NA(50%fuel).

Alt -- D-9 - P51

3000 - 400 - 400
2500 - 581 - 593
2000 - 681 - 694
1500 - 753 - 764
Level- 759 - 768
1500 - 726 - 735
2000 - 620 - 633
2500 - 528 - 545
3000 - 462 - 474
3250 - 438 - 445
3500 - 422 - 420
4000 - 410 - 380

Altitude(m) when level

D-9 - 1380
P51 - 1380

Time at altitudes

Alt -- D-9 - P51

3000 -0:01 -0:01
2500 -0:14 -0:16
2000 -0:24 -0:25
1500 -0:33 -0:34
Level-0:36 -0:37
1500 -0:40 -0:40
2000 -0:50 -0:51
2500 -1:03 -1:03
3000 -1:19 -1:18
3250 -1:29 -1:27
3500 -1:40 -1:36
4000 -2:03 -1:58

Unknown-Pilot
01-08-2006, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by robban75:
There are clear differences in dive and zoom performance between planes. There used to be no difference at all.

Maybe, but I'm not so sure.

Your overall test is about a standardized starting atlitude and speed, with standardized dive angles and procedures, followed by standardized pullout, climb angles, and procedures.

Ignoring the fact that a human at the stick means there will be variations no matter how much effort is put forth, I think you are looking at it at too high a scale factor.

Narrow the focus down some and look at the zoom phase - you're technically starting at different altitudes, and at different speeds.

They may well all be zooming the same, but when you introduce the speed and starting alt variations, it can mask the zoom similarity.

That isn't to say that dive and pullout aren't important factors, just looking at your one comment here in isolation.

Have you thought about isolating this a bit more? You could start at the same alt and speed, and just go into a climb. That would remove the speed and starting alt variations, leaving only induced drag and innate zoom characteristics.

Also, this is more tricky, but you could try to find a way to have each plane be at a given speed at a given alt, while already in a climb. IOW - dive to a certain speed/alt, then climb, and while in playback, wait for the speed to hit a certain point, say 400kph. Note the alt, and chart the progress. Then try to get the next plane to be in the same climb angle, at 400kph at the same alt (tricky as it would take experimentation to find the right starting alt, speed, and stick work to pull that off).

In that last case, you'd further isolate zoom performance by stripping away induced drag from AoA change.

robban75
01-08-2006, 01:42 PM
Hmm, that sounds very complicated. My tests aren't 100% perfect, but I do believe they give a close enough view on how planes behave compared to eachother. I remember a few years ago, when I first started to make dive comparisons in IL2, when all planes reached excactly the same speed at excactly the same altitude. This sim has come a long way since then. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Unknown-Pilot
01-08-2006, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by robban75:
Hmm, that sounds very complicated. My tests aren't 100% perfect, but I do believe they give a close enough view on how planes behave compared to eachother. I remember a few years ago, when I first started to make dive comparisons in IL2, when all planes reached excactly the same speed at excactly the same altitude. This sim has come a long way since then. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Agreed, it has come a long way.

And yes, that last idea I had is rather complicated indeed. But the one just prior to that would be simple enough. Use your starting config, and simply climb, cutting the dive out which in-turn eliminates the speed and starting alt variations.

Just a thought. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWMaxGunz
01-08-2006, 09:38 PM
Nose pitch is not flight path. Working with average speeds (over seconds) and seconds for
each step of 500m alt change it's easy to see that some planes are travelling shallower
than others down and up. Not the same dives and not the same distances travelled, but not
all too far apart either. No surprise as how many pilots of all sides have said that the
best planes were all very close in top speeds?

p1ngu666
01-08-2006, 10:00 PM
with fmb u might be able todo it, waypoint 1, say 1000metres, waypoint 2 3000metres, the plane will point up, or atleast sometimes...

lights can be put in the sky as markers/course too

notepad mission hackin best for doing that, and u can adust the start speed to anything, i think

AKA_TAGERT
01-08-2006, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
with fmb u might be able todo it, waypoint 1, say 1000metres, waypoint 2 3000metres, the plane will point up, or atleast sometimes...

lights can be put in the sky as markers/course too

notepad mission hackin best for doing that, and u can adust the start speed to anything, i think been there done that.

Here is a pic of my lights in the sky for the top speed test of the Ki61

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/NACA_RESULTS/ROC/402/KI61/TSTM_EXTERNAL.jpg

It is a BOX you fly through.. helps you so your not bouncing around between alt, and, for planes with no rudder trim it helps you apply just enough rudder to trim it out. Here is a pic from within the cockpit.

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/NACA_RESULTS/ROC/402/KI61/TSTM_COCKPIT.jpg

They are hard to see in these jpg's but when your actully flying they are very easy to see.

I also made the BOXES for dive test.. I can put them at any angle from any alt to any alt.

karost
01-08-2006, 11:11 PM
robban75 and friends , well that is a good work for this new years , I/we like to keep looking for this topic

S!

Bartolomeo_ita
01-08-2006, 11:18 PM
i love dora http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWMaxGunz
01-09-2006, 02:36 AM
Very handy tool there Tagert!

Bartolomeo_ita
01-09-2006, 03:42 AM
how can u see that speed value? es. 302km/h ...

my speed count increse by 10km/h to 10km/h

300, 310, 320, 330 :|

used instruments? :O

robban75
01-09-2006, 03:56 AM
Dive/climb angle of 15 degrees

P-38L Late(50%fuel), Fw 190A-5, Fw 190A-8, Fw 190A-9, P-47D '44(50%fuel), Bf 109G-10, Bf 109K-4 and Mustang III(50%fuel),

Alt -- P38 -- A-5 - A-8 - A-9 -- P47 - G10 - K-4 - III

3000 - 400 - 400 - 400 - 400 - 400 - 400 - 400 - 400
2500 - 587 - 568 - 571 - 574 - 582 - 591 - 601 - 607
2000 - 684 - 668 - 666 - 673 - 679 - 683 - 693 - 715
1500 - 745 - 735 - 733 - 743 - 740 - 740 - 747 - 787
Level- 740 - 735 - 735 - 748 - 747 - 740 - 743 - 799
1500 - 721 - 703 - 698 - 709 - 706 - 706 - 708 - 760
2000 - 610 - 589 - 583 - 601 - 592 - 591 - 597 - 668
2500 - 521 - 489 - 481 - 503 - 504 - 506 - 516 - 588
3000 - 458 - 408 - 408 - 423 - 441 - 450 - 467 - 526
3250 - 437 - 378 - 385 - 396 - 419 - 431 - 453 - 498
3500 - 421 - 357 - 369 - 378 - 404 - 421 - 445 - 475
4000 - 405 - 343 - 364 - 365 - 387 - 410 - 436 - 435

Altitude(m) when level

P38 - 1420
A-5 - 1400
A-8 - 1370
A-9 - 1380
P47 - 1370
G10 - 1400
K-4 - 1390
III - 1340

Time at altitudes

Alt -- P38 -- A-5 - A-8 - A-9 -- P47 - G10 - K-4 - III

3000 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01 -0:01
2500 -0:15 -0:15 -0:15 -0:15 -0:15 -0:15 -0:15 -0:15
2000 -0:24 -0:24 -0:24 -0:24 -0:24 -0:24 -0:24 -0:25
1500 -0:33 -0:33 -0:33 -0:32 -0:33 -0:32 -0:33 -0:33
Level-0:36 -0:36 -0:36 -0:35 -0:36 -0:35 -0:37 -0:37
1500 -0:38 -0:39 -0:40 -0:39 -0:39 -0:38 -0:40 -0:41
2000 -0:48 -0:50 -0:51 -0:50 -0:51 -0:50 -0:51 -0:51
2500 -1:02 -1:05 -1:06 -1:04 -1:05 -1:03 -1:05 -1:02
3000 -1:18 -1:25 -1:26 -1:24 -1:21 -1:20 -1:20 -1:16
3250 -1:27 -1:37 -1:38 -1:36 -1:31 -1:29 -1:29 -1:23
3500 -1:37 -1:50 -1:51 -1:48 -1:41 -1:38 -1:38 -1:31
4000 -2:00 -2:22 -2:20 -2:17 -2:03 -1:59 -1:57 -1:49

HayateAce
01-09-2006, 11:20 AM
Too much human error to mean anything.

Yes the La5/7 do it all better....it's a russkie sim ain't it?

crazyivan1970
01-09-2006, 11:35 AM
2 Things Hayate:

1) Your sig is too big
2) Stop trolling or i`ll help you.

The end.

Loki-PF
01-10-2006, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by robban75:

I had some problems with the P-38 because of the stiff elevator at the higher speeds. Therefore I used alot of trim which caused a rather rapid pull up(compared to the other planes at least). The pilot actually started to black out. Nevertheless, the P-38 proves to have excellent dive and zooming abilities.



Yeah... ahem... unless you actually want to point the nose of the thing *at* something whilst in that dive http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WWMaxGunz
01-13-2006, 08:55 PM
I've seen these dive tests and they are all push the nose down and dragrace dive.

And I read accounts in different theatres of in combat you roll over and dive.
I've seen that on film, btw, as have most of us. They don't always wait to get all the
way or even halfway over before bringing on the elevator.

Anyway, what kind of G's can those wings generate for a loop or turn? And upside-down
for as long as the roof is pointing down there's a lift vector that more than the thrust
competes or beats gravity as the biggest. Full lift down is not for long but you should
be able to get a huge start in a dive that way. If the nme is close and rolls even 1 or
2 seconds slower then he will pass over the place where you split-essed from, more range
between you and him to make up.

Tactics. Your lift and capacity to roll and apply it may be the most powerful force
you can command. Just make sure you have loads of air below you in any fast, heavy plane.

Diablo310th
01-14-2006, 07:18 AM
Robban....great job. these tests are proving waht I ahve noticed all along while flying my Jug. I can outdive most ac except the Dora and the G-10,14, K4. I can outzoom most all FW's but not 109's. Again..thanks. Great and useful info here.