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TC_Stele
06-29-2006, 11:41 AM
I've seen some guncam vids during dogfights in which the gears drop while taking gunfire. I wanted to know if this was a frequent occurrence and if it was something that happened, why it isn't modelled in the game?

VoteQuimby
06-29-2006, 11:55 AM
I think it is modeled on the P-38 IIRC in game

TgD Thunderbolt56
06-29-2006, 11:55 AM
It DEFINITELY happened IRL and, more specifically, with some models of FW's. I can't say why it's not modeled in this sim, but have seen it in a couple others.


TB

vocatx
06-29-2006, 12:01 PM
The gear would drop when a hydraulic line was severed, causing a pressure drop, thus releasing the gear. I would imagine the reason we don't see it in the sim is because the damage model is not that detailed. From what I've seen of BoB's modeling of aircraft structure, however, I would expect to see it there.

F19_Ob
06-29-2006, 12:27 PM
Also planes wich had the gearmechanism directly connected to wires could be in real trouble if the wire or wires were cut. For example, planes like the Russian I-16 and the american wildcat wich had to winch up or down the gear by hand.
Many I-16 pilots had pliers with them on flights to be able to cut the wires in emergensies so the gears would come down quickly.

SeaFireLIV
06-29-2006, 12:29 PM
I`ve seen the gear drop on an enemy plane sometimes in IL2. I suppose it could`ve been panic from the player pilot though hitting the wrong button.

justflyin
06-29-2006, 12:33 PM
The only time I've seen it is during intentional use by an online pilot while flying one of the USN types. I forget which one, but it wasn't a Corsair. The pilot stated it was historically accurate and helped increase his turning ability. I've never seen it again since.

As for hydraulic failure, it is modeled for some birds, especially the Ki-84. If you get back to base in a Ki-84 and your "G" key or whichever you have mappped for gear doesn't work, use the manual gear keys to lower your gear for landing. Neat feature. ;^)

Bobsqueek
06-29-2006, 12:51 PM
Apparently it was an urban myth with pilots that if you drop your gear it was as good as saying "I give up or I surrender" or something ot other.

msalama
06-29-2006, 12:55 PM
I`ve seen the gear drop on an enemy plane sometimes in IL2.

I've a dim recollection of seeing this happening to an AI bird as well, now that you mention it...

Not sure about this, though.

russ.nl
06-29-2006, 12:59 PM
I thought that all gear had some sort of locking mechanism both for gear up and down.
And isn't dropping gear also a last resord tactic when you are being shot up. Using it as an airbreak.

GH_Klingstroem
06-29-2006, 01:00 PM
Haha increased turning ability?!?! I liked that one! The only thing loweing ut gear does is to increase your form drag and increase your stallspeed! In no way does it increase turning ability!
Lowering flaps however will increase lift available but ALSO induced drag but for the first 10-15 degrees however increased lift is greater than drag and thats why combat flaps are not more than 10 degrees...
So pls no lowering of the undercarriage to turn better!!!

F19_Ob
06-29-2006, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Haha increased turning ability?!?! I liked that one! The only thing loweing ut gear does is to increase your form drag and increase your stallspeed! In no way does it increase turning ability!
Lowering flaps however will increase lift available but ALSO induced drag but for the first 10-15 degrees however increased lift is greater than drag and thats why combat flaps are not more than 10 degrees...
So pls no lowering of the undercarriage to turn better!!!

I've seen one related statement. The Finnish Fiat G50 pilot Olli Puhakka who was able to make an I-16 pilot overshoot all his turns wich were done in slow speeds due to a gear failure (gear kept coming down).
G50's usually couldn't outturn I-16's so easily.
Finally the red pilot descided to slow down to be able to turn inside the G50 pilots turns but as the I-16 becomes very flippy in slow speed turns (like ingame )it flipped and was unable to recover at the low altitude and crashed into ground.

I found the story:
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/puhak/puhak.htm

justflyin
06-29-2006, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Haha increased turning ability?!?! I liked that one! The only thing loweing ut gear does is to increase your form drag and increase your stallspeed! In no way does it increase turning ability!
Lowering flaps however will increase lift available but ALSO induced drag but for the first 10-15 degrees however increased lift is greater than drag and thats why combat flaps are not more than 10 degrees...
So pls no lowering of the undercarriage to turn better!!!

Well, it is what he said and I am only repeating it. I laughed to myself as well, but he did seem to turn tighter for that one instant. Maybe just a flaw in the game for that particular plane model. ;^)

As I stated above though, I haven't seen it since and I also tend to lean towards it creating much drag and only good for a quick slow-down.

IIRC, it was a BSS flyer and during the short time that HL was down and he was flying over on UBI. That's all I can remember without my log book in front of me.

Taylortony
06-29-2006, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by russ.nl:
I thought that all gear had some sort of locking mechanism both for gear up and down.
And isn't dropping gear also a last resord tactic when you are being shot up. Using it as an airbreak.


you are correct they have uplocks and downlocks, but the could easily be damaged when hit and the hydraulic lines severed...... the p51 sitting on the ground will drop its main doors over night as pressure bleeds away

Ob.Emann
06-29-2006, 02:45 PM
I have read somewhere that dropping the landing gear was also a sign of surrender, wherein the pursuing aircraft would then escort the surrendering aircraft back to base where the crew and aircraft would be interred.

I don't know the validity of this however.

stathem
06-29-2006, 03:12 PM
I've seen it said that Marseille wasn't averse to doing it in combat, whether to bleed speed or turn I don't know.

uglyohyeah
06-29-2006, 03:41 PM
I read an account, on this board I think, where a group of hurricanes dropped their gear and were able to form up with some Ju87's and attack them without being attacked by the escorting 109's. Apparently with it's hump backed appearance and the gear down it looked close enough to a stuka to get away with it.

Sorry, don't have any more info than that.

justflyin
06-29-2006, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by uglyohyeah:
I read an account, on this board I think, where a group of hurricanes dropped their gear and were able to form up with some Ju87's and attack them without being attacked by the escorting 109's. Apparently with it's hump backed appearance and the gear down it looked close enough to a stuka to get away with it.

Sorry, don't have any more info than that.

Ya know, even if that turned out to be some kind of myth, that is truly one cool idea and demonstrates the kind of ingenuity that helped Britain win the BoB. :^D

WTE_Galway
06-29-2006, 05:29 PM
it was apparently a very common thing in the he111 when it took damage

Xiolablu3
06-29-2006, 09:46 PM
I know there was an attack on a British Airfield by 3 Ju88's, they approached the airfield with their wheels down and the ploy worked, the whole airbase thought it was some lost British bombers landing to get fuel or similar.

As the planes came fully into view, they raised their wheels and dropped their bombs. It was a successful attack and they got away.

In all the hundreds of hours I have put in one this sim, I have never had my gear drop from damage during a fight.

I have however put it down by accident many , many times whilst trying to type into the chatbox, but not actually opening the chat window first! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Freelancer-1
06-29-2006, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by russ.nl:
I thought that all gear had some sort of locking mechanism both for gear up and down.
And isn't dropping gear also a last resord tactic when you are being shot up. Using it as an airbreak.

Not last resort. A valid tactic if done correctly.

If you are trying to get an opponent to overshoot, you can cut the throttle and pull back on the stick. This method, while it works, leaves you near stall and not pointed for a snap shot.

But if you just blip the gear out enough to grab some air and pull it back in you are in a much better firing position when he overshoots.

Try it, you might be suprised at how effective a tactic it can be.

Billy_DeLyon
06-29-2006, 11:43 PM
I read somewhere about how Japanese Zero pilots would get in formation with Vals and drop their gear. Then Allied fighters would be in for a nasty surprise, thinking they were attacking an unescorted flight of sitting ducks!

badatflyski
06-30-2006, 02:21 AM
Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
It DEFINITELY happened IRL and, more specifically, with some models of FW's. I can't say why it's not modeled in this sim, but have seen it in a couple others.


TB

if you talking about the FW190... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gifYOU ARE WRONG...cause it used to happend more on airplanes with hydraulical gear like the spit or the hurri than on airplanes with ELECTRICAL-Gear like the190 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

stathem
06-30-2006, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by badatflyski:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
It DEFINITELY happened IRL and, more specifically, with some models of FW's. I can't say why it's not modeled in this sim, but have seen it in a couple others.


TB

if you talking about the FW190... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gifYOU ARE WRONG...cause it used to happend more on airplanes with hydraulical gear like the spit or the hurri than on airplanes with ELECTRICAL-Gear like the190 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, I've definately seen guncam of FWs doing it; it maybe postulated that it is a result of hits in the electrical system and/or accumulators.

Xiolablu3
06-30-2006, 03:47 AM
Originally posted by badatflyski:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
It DEFINITELY happened IRL and, more specifically, with some models of FW's. I can't say why it's not modeled in this sim, but have seen it in a couple others.


TB

if you talking about the FW190... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gifYOU ARE WRONG...cause it used to happend more on airplanes with hydraulical gear like the spit or the hurri than on airplanes with ELECTRICAL-Gear like the190 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


No, YOU ARE WRONG (and a bit annoying) I have seen it on numerous guncam clips happening to FW190A's

In fact I have seen it on more 190's than any other plane (but htis might be coincidence. But am sure it happens on FW190's.

I am sure a few people will post the relevant clips once they find them.

Vrabac
06-30-2006, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
But if you just blip the gear out enough to grab some air and pull it back in you are in a much better firing position when he overshoots.

Try it, you might be suprised at how effective a tactic it can be.

I think that all planes with automatic gear down/up (meaning those that can press G) have a problem here, because you can't pull the gear back in until it comes out completly, and it takes a lot of time for both coming completly down and than up. Are you using manual command or G key?

BenQ-the-Hawk
06-30-2006, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I have however put it down by accident many , many times whilst trying to type into the chatbox, but not actually opening the chat window first! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

or shutting down the engine! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif

WWSensei
06-30-2006, 05:27 AM
It will happen in game---rarely. I know I've had it happen in a 109 (can't remember the model) and it defintely happens in the 110 on occasion. Int he 110 when it occurs you can crank down the other gear via manual cranks.

In the 5+ years I've played this sim I've only seen it happen maybe 4 or 5 times. Now, I've seen gear get shot off or fly off after being hit a lot more.

rnzoli
06-30-2006, 06:47 AM
not long ago, i made a low pass in a P-38 late model, skimmed the ground (bad piloting as usual http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif), prop struck ground on right engine, and when i bailed out, i was truly surprise to see that the nose gear was extended... (not the main gears).

TgD Thunderbolt56
06-30-2006, 06:50 AM
Also, on the reverse, I've had my landing gear damaged many times requiring manual manipulation when they wouldn't lower with the control lever.

To the above poster challenging the 'gear-drop' in the FW's. I have specific documentaion reporting it as a potential if damaged. I'll look for it, scan and post. Additionally, I'm not saying that it was only intrinsic to FW's. I'm just saying that in FW's it was a known issue.

TB

Freelancer-1
06-30-2006, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by Vrabac:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
But if you just blip the gear out enough to grab some air and pull it back in you are in a much better firing position when he overshoots.

Try it, you might be suprised at how effective a tactic it can be.

I think that all planes with automatic gear down/up (meaning those that can press G) have a problem here, because you can't pull the gear back in until it comes out completly, and it takes a lot of time for both coming completly down and than up. Are you using manual command or G key? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True enough, it's a tactic I usually end up using in an I-16 or the like with manual gear. These are the types of "cr@p planes" (though I think the I-16 is one sweet ride) where you need to think outside the box, tactics wise. Should have been clearer on that post http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

WOLFMondo
06-30-2006, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I`ve seen the gear drop on an enemy plane sometimes in IL2. I suppose it could`ve been panic from the player pilot though hitting the wrong button.

I'll always drop gear and flaps if I need to bail, just to loose the speed. Some guys do it I think to show they are 'defeated' but since theres no honour online theres no point.

I've never seen it done through damage though. Jammed gear is one thing but never seen it drop once bcause of battle damage.

SeaFireLIV
06-30-2006, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:

I'll always drop gear and flaps if I need to bail, just to loose the speed. Some guys do it I think to show they are 'defeated' but since theres no honour online theres no point.

I've never seen it done through damage though. Jammed gear is one thing but never seen it drop once bcause of battle damage.

In the early days, it was quite common to see pilots drop their gear as a sign of `surrender`, but, as with all things it soon began to get abused. Some would use it to get the bogey off his six then later come back and attack and I know that one guy used it regularly on the virtual wars campaign to survive every dogfight he got involved in. Soon as it looked like he was in trouble (someone on his six), it was `surrender` gears down.

I got tired of this and I`m glad it`s not used anymore.

polak5
07-01-2006, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by Bobsqueek:
Apparently it was an urban myth with pilots that if you drop your gear it was as good as saying "I give up or I surrender" or something ot other.

that is true also.

Daiichidoku
07-01-2006, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by BenQ-the-Hawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I have however put it down by accident many , many times whilst trying to type into the chatbox, but not actually opening the chat window first! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

or shutting down the engine! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


i map both my gear button and engine toggle to two buttons
gear: space G
engine I O

this way, if i DO acciendently type in chat, when my chat isnt up, i wont kill engine, lower gear, etc

several other of my keys are "dual mapped", to avoid accidental use of vital systems at critical times

just wish i could map P38s dive rec. flaps to separate keys,, instead of toggle them up/down on one key http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif