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Copperhead311th
06-02-2008, 11:42 AM
Again this is also important to something i'm working on. i had a copy of Booshers file on Lilya at one time but have since lost all that resaerch to a Hard Dive crash.

"In a Dance with Death" it says that she was last seen in a dog fight with four enemy fighters and dove away into the clouds and that was the last time she was seen.

So i'm wondering what LW units or were in the vacinty that day. may some of the LW experts historical aound here has an information on LW bases and operations for the summer of 43.

Also, If anyone sees Crazy Ivan, or Boosher. let em know i'm looking for them.
Or if Either one of you guys is reading this please pm me contact info for the both or you. i have some questions that i need answerd that you are both knowlagable on. thanks.

SeaFireLIV
06-02-2008, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:


"In a Dance with Death" it says that she was last seen in a dog fight with four enemy fighters and dove away into the clouds and that was the last time she was seen.

thanks.

Interesting. Does anyone have more info on this? 4 enemy fighters would be tough to take on.

na85
06-02-2008, 01:07 PM
If it helps to determine which units she might have faced, her remains were found buried under the wing of her downed Yak-1 near the town of Dmitriyevka in the late 70's.

TTU_Phoenix
06-02-2008, 02:56 PM
Actually, IIRC, she was found dead of a pistol wound. So there is evidence to suggest that she survived being shot down but was killed by vengeful Germans.

Wildnoob
06-02-2008, 03:31 PM
by the way, the number of female figther pilot's was relative small, isn't ?

at least in the army the numbers where quiet larger.

please, can someone provide more details ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI67EoCAtZQ

this video shows female aces. but, I read that only 2 female pilot's became aces in history. if this is correct, should be Lilya and... ?

if someone could confirm this, I'll express my gratitude.

SlickStick
06-02-2008, 03:37 PM
This might be a good starting place. There are some other links at the bottom of that page as well.

Female Aces of WWII (http://acesofww2.com/soviet/Women.htm)

F0_Dark_P
06-02-2008, 04:11 PM
The other ace was Katya Budanova.

here is a nice site.. http://wio.ru/aces/gal-f.htm

PBNA-Boosher
06-02-2008, 08:33 PM
There is no evidence as of now showing who killed Lilya Litvyak. She was on the Kursk/Orel front at the time with the 296 IAP. I'll send you a PM with my info.

KG66_Gog
06-03-2008, 03:51 AM
Luftwaffe pilots with kill claims on the Russian front for 1st of August 1943,

5/JG 3 Fw. Hans Gruenberg IL-2 Sturmovik
7/JG 3 Lt. Hans Schleef LaGG-3 or Yak-1
8/JG 3 Oblt. Emil Bitsch IL-2 Sturmovik mH
8/JG 3 Oblt. Emil Bitsch IL-2 Sturmovik mH
8/JG 3 Lt. Siegel IL-2 Sturmovik mH
8/JG 3 Uffz. Robert Meyer-Arend IL-2 Sturmovik
8/JG 3 Uffz. Robert Meyer-Arend IL-2 Sturmovik
I/JG 51 Maj. Erich Leie Yak-1
I/JG 51 Ofw. Anton Lindner IL-2 Sturmovik mH
1/JG 51 Fw. Oskar Romm IL-2 Sturmovik mH
1/JG 51 Fw. Oskar Romm IL-2 Sturmovik mH
1/JG 51 Fw. Moritz Franke IL-2 Sturmovik mH
1/JG 51 Fw. Moritz Franke IL-2 Sturmovik mH
1/JG 51 Uffz. Max Bernhardt IL-2 Sturmovik mH
2/JG 51 Ofw. Anton Lindner La-5 ("LaGG-5")
2/JG 51 Ofw. Anton Lindner IL-2 Sturmovik mH
3/JG 51 Lt. Heinrich Hoefemeier IL-2 Sturmovik mH
3/JG 51 Lt. Walther Wever IL-2 Sturmovik mH
3/JG 51 Ofw. Gerhard Foerster IL-2 Sturmovik mH
3/JG 51 Uffz. Jommes IL-2 Sturmovik mH
III/JG 51 Maj. Fritz Losigkeit LaGG-3
III/JG 51 Maj. Fritz Losigkeit LaGG-3
III/JG 51 Uffz. Josef Gabl LaGG-3
7/JG 51 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Weber LaGG-3
7/JG 51 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Weber La-5 ("LaGG-5")
7/JG 51 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Weber LaGG-3
7/JG 51 Uffz. Heinrich Dittlmann La-5 ("LaGG-5")
8/JG 51 Lt. Guenther Schack La-5 ("LaGG-5")
8/JG 51 Lt. Guenther Schack La-5 ("LaGG-5")
8/JG 51 Fw. Franz-Josef Zoufahl LaGG-3
8/JG 51 Uffz. August Mueller LaGG-3
8/JG 51 Uffz. August Mueller P-39 Airacobra
9/JG 51 Oblt. Maximilian Mayerl La-5 ("LaGG-5")
9/JG 51 Oblt. Hermann Luecke Yak-7
9/JG 51 Flg. Gabriel Tautscher LaGG-3
9/JG 51 Flg. Gabriel Tautscher LaGG-3
Stab/JG 52 Obstlt. Dietrich Hrabak IL-2 Sturmovik mH
Stab/JG 52 Obstlt. Dietrich Hrabak IL-2 Sturmovik mH
Stab/JG 52 Obstlt. Dietrich Hrabak IL-2 Sturmovik mH
Stab/JG 52 Obstlt. Dietrich Hrabak IL-2 Sturmovik mH
I/JG 52 Lt. Karl-Heinz Pluecker IL-2 Sturmovik mH
I/JG 52 Ofw. Karl Munz IL-2 Sturmovik mH
1/JG 52 Hptm. Josef Haiboeck IL-2 Sturmovik mH
1/JG 52 Fw. Hans-Georg Merkle Yak-1M
2/JG 52 Lt. Gustav Wiesmahr IL-2 Sturmovik mH
2/JG 52 Lt. Gustav Wiesmahr IL-2 Sturmovik mH
3/JG 52 Lt. Karl-Heinz Pluecker IL-2 Sturmovik mH
3/JG 52 Lt. Franz Schall IL-2 Sturmovik mH
3/JG 52 Ofw. Franz Woidich IL-2 Sturmovik
3/JG 52 Ofw. Franz Woidich IL-2 Sturmovik
6/JG 52 Lt. Guenther Kurz Boston
III/JG 52 Oblt. Rudolf Trepte LaGG
7/JG 52 Lt. Erich Hartmann La-5? ("LaGG")
7/JG 52 Lt. Erich Hartmann La-5? ("LaGG")
7/JG 52 Lt. Erich Hartmann LaGG
7/JG 52 Lt. Erich Hartmann LaGG
7/JG 52 Lt. Erich Hartmann LaGG
7/JG 52 Lt. Werner Puls IL-2 Sturmovik mH
8/JG 52 Lt. Hans Funcke LaGG
8/JG 52 Uffz. Gustav Ahlbrand LaGG
8/JG 52 Uffz. Manfred Maiwald LaGG
8/JG 52 Uffz. Kurt Rathmann LaGG
9/JG 52 Lt. Berthold Korts LaGG
Stab/JG 54 Uffz. Ulrich Wernitz La-5 ("LaGG-5")
1/JG 54 Lt. Gerhard Loos Yak-9
1/JG 54 Uffz. Hans Gruebert IL-2 Sturmovik
2/JG 54 Oblt. Hans Goetz La-5
2/JG 54 Ofw. Otto Kittel Yak-9
3/JG 54 Ofw. Fuchs IL-2 Sturmovik
3/JG 54 Uffz. Mayer P-39 Airacobra
3/JG 54 Uffz. Bruecher LaGG-3
3/JG 54 Uffz. Bruecher LaGG-3
5/JG 54 Lt. Emil Lang P-39 Airacobra
5/JG 54 Lt. Emil Lang P-39 Airacobra
5/JG 54 Lt. Emil Lang P-39 Airacobra
5/JG 54 Lt. Emil Lang Curtiss P-40
5/JG 54 Ofw. Xaver Mueller Curtiss P-40
5/JG 54 Fw. Bienecke Curtiss P-40
6/JG 54 Ofw. Heinrich Sterr La-5
6/JG 54 Ofw. Albin Wolf La-5
12/JG 54 Uffz. Helmut Grollmus LaGG-3
IV/NJG 5 Hptm. Prinz Heinrich zu Sayn-Wittgenstein R-5
IV/NJG 5 Hptm. Prinz Heinrich zu Sayn-Wittgenstein PS-84
IV/NJG 5 Hptm. Prinz Heinrich zu Sayn-Wittgenstein R-5
11/NJG 5 Fw. Georg Bargel DB-3

CzechTexan
06-03-2008, 05:58 AM
Originally posted by TTU_Phoenix:
Actually, IIRC, she was found dead of a pistol wound. So there is evidence to suggest that she survived being shot down but was killed by vengeful Germans.

If Litvak did die of a pistol shot then it is more than likely that it was self-inflicted. Female pilots knew what the consequences were of being captured by the Germans. In my reading of Lilya Litvak, her character was so strong that I believe she would not want to be captured and would rather die instead. I assume that her plane was damaged and forced to the ground where she took her own life.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/CzechTexan/AIRSHOWS/LilyaLitvak.jpg

Feathered_IV
06-03-2008, 06:33 AM
Interesting thread. I had no idea her body and crash site were found. Was there any forensic study of the site?

Worf101
06-03-2008, 06:33 AM
My god, what iron. There were giants then. Doers of great deeds. I never knew of her existence until this moment.

Da Worfster

(chit, I'm actually crying)

SeaFireLIV
06-03-2008, 06:43 AM
Some very interesting info. Amazing that we actually have details of every German claim on the very day.

I also reckon she would have shot herself. The pistol wound adds some credence to this. It was bad enough for a man captured on the Eastern Front, but a woman? It`s no surprise.

Thanks for the notes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Yakgirlgo.jpg

Feathered_IV
06-03-2008, 08:16 AM
I gues it is impossible to know what German units were in the area? While I shudder to think of her fate, had she been captured alive; it is worthy of note that in death, someone took the trouble to bury her and cover the spot with the aircraft's wing.

rnzoli
06-03-2008, 08:55 AM
http://www.redarmyonline.org/FI_Article_by_KJ_Cottam.html
it's quite controversial what happened - still a lot to research, I believe http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Feathered_IV
06-04-2008, 06:08 AM
With Litvak being such a highly motivated soldier, so much so that she would twice do a runner from hospital to return to her unit - seems unlikely she'd suddenly "run off with several German officers". That and the PoW sightings, followed by a post war life in Switzerland sound very tinfoil-hatted to me.

CzechTexan
06-04-2008, 06:30 AM
You also have to take into consideration that her boyfriend pilot was also killed a few weeks earlier which put her in a state of depression. Remarks from her fellow pilots say that after his death she seemed more fatalistic.

In my opinion of the German pilots, I think they considered Litvak a formidable foe who was killing their fellow pilots so something needed to be done. As the story goes, they set a trap for Litvak and ganged up on her.
I also think that whomever was credited with the kill probably would not want it publicized because there would surely be a big price on his head for killing "the White Rose of Stalingrad."

SeaFireLIV
06-04-2008, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by CzechTexan:


In my opinion of the German pilots, I think they considered Litvak a formidable foe who was killing their fellow pilots so something needed to be done. As the story goes, they set a trap for Litvak and ganged up on her.
I also think that whomever was credited with the kill probably would not want it publicized because there would surely be a big price on his head for killing "the White Rose of Stalingrad."

In this case, I think you`re going into the realm of fantasy now. She was such a threat that they specifically laid a trap for her?

How? They put an advert out saying, "Lots of juicy germans here, Litvak "?

And how would they know they had Litvak, among the other Russian planes? Was anyone else such a great threat that they did this? cos if this trapping thing is so successful, they should do it for every Ace Russian pilot.

Perhaps I`m missing something here, but unless I see documented proof I doubt this as true.

I also think the Germans would`ve been happy to announce that they took down another Russian Ace.

Feathered_IV
06-04-2008, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by CzechTexan:
You also have to take into consideration that her boyfriend pilot was also killed a few weeks earlier which put her in a state of depression. Remarks from her fellow pilots say that after his death she seemed more fatalistic.


Titillating as it may be, the glamourisation of Alieksiey Solomatin as Litvak's boyfriend is entirely false. Although if a movie is ever made, you can bet it will be a key feature....

Boosher
06-04-2008, 10:23 AM
There is particular first-hand evidence from Litvyak's mechanic saying that the two were close. So it is not entirely false, but it is romanticised and glamourized more than it should be.

Copperhead311th
06-04-2008, 11:40 AM
"Actually, IIRC, she was found dead of a pistol wound. So there is evidence to suggest that she survived being shot down but was killed by vengeful Germans."

I hadn't actually read that anywhere. Source please.
Of course this scenario leave open the possibilities that the gunshot wound was SELF inflicted, in order to keep from being captured.

Cog:
"Luftwaffe pilots with kill claims on the Russian front for 1st of August 1943"

Cog that's fantastic! That helps narrow it down a bit. What would be even more useful is to know the locations of those units that day. Or the base they were operating out of. Because we know where she was found, we know where she took off, from there it's just a simple matter of triangulation to locate the closes LW unit to body.

Seafire:
"In this case, I think you`re going into the realm of fantasy now. She was such a threat that they specifically laid a trap for her?

How? They put an advert out saying, "Lots of juicy germans here, Litvak "?

And how would they know they had Litvak, among the other Russian planes? Was anyone else such a great threat that they did this? cos if this trapping thing is so successful, they should do it for every Ace Russian pilot.

Perhaps I`m missing something here, but unless I see documented proof I doubt this as true.

I also think the Germans would`ve been happy to announce that they took down another Russian Ace. "

From the White Lily she had painted on both side of her Fuselage.
They didn't so much as lay a trap for her, as they did gang up on her once they final caught her with her guard down. Once they new it was her reports say that the Germans singled her out. The reports I've read say that was her 4th mission of the day. And she was exhausted. Some say it was 4 germans others say 8, and still others say it was 12. I'm taking the middle road on this one.

Boosher:
"There is particular first-hand evidence from Litvyak's mechanic saying that the two were close. So it is not entirely false, but it is romanticised and glamourized more than it should be."

Yep rgr rgr. Inna is a key character of this story. By her own account there were few other girls who where as close to Lilya as she was.



And worf I'm shocked your just now finding this story out bro. I had thought that most everyone around her knew at least a little something about it.

Boosher
06-04-2008, 11:56 AM
Hey Copperhead. I meant both Salomatin & Litvyak, but Inna and Lilya were very close too.

Copperhead311th
06-04-2008, 12:13 PM
Also whe was this mystiorus "Barron" she shot down from the "Richthofen Unit"?
Is there anything know about this man or what his identitty might be?

luftluuver
06-04-2008, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by KG66_Gog:
Luftwaffe pilots with kill claims on the Russian front for 1st of August 1943,
It can be narrowed down even further.
http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/tonywood.htm

see Eastern Front Vol 2. Jul to Dec 1943

In a Nowarra book he states that it was an a/c from JG54.

Emmes Schmidt in a report mentions a 'rather pretty girl'.

na85
06-05-2008, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by CzechTexan:
You also have to take into consideration that her boyfriend pilot was also killed a few weeks earlier which put her in a state of depression. Remarks from her fellow pilots say that after his death she seemed more fatalistic.

In my opinion of the German pilots, I think they considered Litvak a formidable foe who was killing their fellow pilots so something needed to be done. As the story goes, they set a trap for Litvak and ganged up on her.
I also think that whomever was credited with the kill probably would not want it publicized because there would surely be a big price on his head for killing "the White Rose of Stalingrad."

Farfetched. Firstly, "White Rose of Stalingrad" was a name given to her by the American media. Her nickname amongst her VVS friends was "Lily".

Secondly, she only had 12 kills. You'd think they'd be more interested in taking down, say, Kozhedub or Pokryskin.

Copperhead311th
06-05-2008, 09:15 AM
Ok so ASUMING that Lilya was fling a Yak-1 on August 1st 1943, and assuming that the kill was indeed reported (which I believe it was given to the fact that the Luftwaffe was notorious for over claiming).... Here are the most all the Yak-1 kills reported in the known records of the Luftwaffe on that day for the eastern front.

From Vol. 1

01.08.43 Maj. Erich Leie Stab I./JG 51 Yak-1 *53 446 at 2.000 m. 18.45 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 177

01.08.43 Fw. Hans-Jg Merkle 1./JG 52 Yak-1 *88 239 at 3.500 m. 14.35 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 551

I believe that is the strongest candidate in the vol. 1 records. As Lilya's mechanic Inna, clearly states that she had been escorting Il-2's when she was shot down.

02.08.43 Ofw. Werner Quast 4./JG 52 Yak-1 *76 821 at 2.000 m. 08.20 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Xk
02.08.43 Hptm. Gerhard Barkhorn 4./JG 52 Yak-1 *99 778 at 50 m. 08.00 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Xk
02.08.43 Hptm. Gerhard Barkhorn 4./JG 52 Yak-1 *88 292 at 1.000 m. 12.15 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Xk
02.08.43 Ltn. Walter Wolfrum 5./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. *88 261 at 50 m. 11.44 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: ASM
02.08.43 Fw. Otto Fnnekold 5./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. *88 621 at 200 m. 18.10 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 797

Now I'm also assuming that these are the Altitude and coordinates [b]<span class="ev_code_RED">53 446 at 2.000 m.</span>[\b] being reported as the kill. If so where on the map would the coordinates be? By placing the coordanates in map quest I'm getting this area.

http://map.web.mapquest.com/?e=9&GetMapDataDirect=Gme5diw%2cb%3a9u12%3b%40%24s1%2d1 00faa%26wr%26008adr%24n1%2d8glabx%26f%40shzal1%40b s16ra9%402n56%2an%26u72u%2c%24xuzr%3a%26%40%24%3ad a%402u672u%40r5%21y72u67%3a%26%4020g6%2ahoev17b%24 %3a94rn%3b6%24lyyv%3a94rn%3bur%3a5r7n9ztx%2601xlza s5%401a0f7gg%40bs16ra9%402suwrad%40t290yw%26aa50yt %3a94rwd6%24aqf1w%26az2u6%24n5672%26f72u%40rau6%24 ld67%3a9w72%210%2a%3agz7n%26%40&rnd=1915

Now here are the known candidates for that same day from vol. 2.

01.08.43 Maj. Erich Leie Stab I./JG 51 Yak-1 􀂅 53 446 at 2.000 m. 18.45 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 177
01.08.43 Fw. Hans-Jg Merkle 1./JG 52 Yak-1 􀂅 88 239 at 3.500 m. 14.35 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 551


now the question should be does any of those coordanates come anywhere close to where her body/plane were found near Dmitriyevka?
map of the area near Dmitriyevka:

http://map.web.mapquest.com/?e=9&GetMapDataDirect=Gme5diw%2cb%3a9u12%3b%40%24s9%2d8 whf1g%26wt%26hrblhf%24n1%2dzwqwr5%26f%400568sd%40b s16ra9%402n56%2an%26u72u%2c%24xuzr%3a%26%40%24%3ad u%40shf1w5%40ra%21fyx1f1%3a%26%4020g6%2ahoev17b%24 %3a94rn%3b6%24lyyv%3a94rn%3bur%3a5r7n9ztx%2601xlza s5%401a0f7gg%40bs16ra9%402suwrad%40t290yw%26aa50yt %3a94rwd6%24aqf1w%26az2u6%24n5672%26f72u%40rau6%24 ld67%3a9w72%210%2a%3agz7n%26%40&rnd=6371

csThor
06-05-2008, 10:40 AM
The coordinates refer the the Luftwaffe's fighter grid system, not direct geographical coordinates. Both examples you posted are far away from any areas the Wehrmacht ever reached in Russia.

Okay I found the map. I hope I'm reading this right and don't claim my words the be free of errors - IMO the location is missing the important major grid (35 Ost and 34 Ost in LW terms).

Maj. Erich Leie 53 446 at 2.000 m would translate into a location south-west of Orel halfway down to Dmitrovsk.

Fw. Hans-Jg Merkle 88 239 at 3.500 m would translate into "34 Ost" and a location on the Mius front north of the Sea of Azov.


02.08.43 Ofw. Werner Quast 4./JG 52 Yak-1 76 821 at 2.000 m. 08.20 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Xk
02.08.43 Hptm. Gerhard Barkhorn 4./JG 52 Yak-1 99 778 at 50 m. 08.00 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Xk
02.08.43 Hptm. Gerhard Barkhorn 4./JG 52 Yak-1 88 292 at 1.000 m. 12.15 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Xk
02.08.43 Ltn. Walter Wolfrum 5./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. 88 261 at 50 m. 11.44 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: ASM
02.08.43 Fw. Otto Fnnekold 5./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. 88 621 at 200 m. 18.10 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 797

All of these locations refer to the Mius Front or even the still-existing Kuban Bridgehead.


Actually I'm none the wiser now. It would help to know the Front 296.IAP was assigned to in August 1943 to narrow down locations. If she was near Orel it is extremely probable that the following german units could have claimed her:

Stab/JG 51
I./JG 51
III./JG 51
IV./JG 51
I./JG 54
II./JG 54
III./JG 52

But quite frankly I'm rubbing my crystal ball here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

TTU_Phoenix
06-05-2008, 11:05 AM
Copperhead, my source is the March 2002 issue of Aviation History, article "Russia's Women Top Guns".

Official Dispatch -"The 73rd GvIAP had three dogfights...the first took place between 10:40 and 11:50 a.m....Nine Yak-1s engaged 30 Ju-88s and 18 Me-109s at an altitude of 4,500 meters. Lityvak participated in it. Junior Lieutenant Lityvak and her wingman sergeant were attacked by four Me-10s. Lieutenant Anatoly Tabunov and Junior Lieutenant Ivan Borisenko say that Lityvak's plane was shot down by the Me-109s."

Report from Borisenko- "We detected a formation of Junkers 10 to 12 miles from the front lines at an altitude of 4,500 meters and engaged them over the Ukranian village of Dmitrievka. I saw Lityvak's Yak-1, No. 18, climbing steadily overhead to attack them from above. Suddenly two Messerschmitts turned on her and the next moment, plane 'one-eight' spun about several times, rocked dangerously from side to side, spat and belched lack smoke, and with the wings wobbling sickly, staggered into the clouds and disappeared. We searched for the plane in the following days, but all our efforts were in vain." So it appears that a pair of 109s shot her down near Dmitrievka.

The finding of the body- "On July 26, 1989, the inhabitants of Dmitrievka were digging up World WAr II-era trenches when they unearthed the wing of a Yak-1 and found a woman's remains beneath it. Her flight uniform and boots had rotted, but the leather helmet on her skull remained intact. In the forehead there was a dime-sized bullet hole. No identification papers were found, but the medical commission identified the remains as those of Lydia Lityvak. She was reinterred in Dmitrievka in mass grave No. 19. On May 5, 1990, Lityvak was awarded a long-overdue Gold Star by Mikhail Gorbachev. A monument was also erected in her honor at Krasny Luch, near Donetsk."

Choctaw111
06-05-2008, 11:09 AM
This is a good thread. I am learning more about her that I had known before.

waffen-79
06-05-2008, 11:13 AM
hmm... you don't put a bullet on your "forehead" to commit suicide

whom ever the remians were, was executed, IMO

Jaws2002
06-05-2008, 12:03 PM
Not necesarily. There are good chances to be hit in the forehead if you climb into a diving 109 or climb to engage a bomber.
Judjung from the report above she was most likely killed in the air.

b2spirita
06-05-2008, 02:47 PM
http://www.redarmyonline.org/FI_Article_by_KJ_Cottam.html

have you got this already?

Copperhead311th
06-05-2008, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
Not necesarily. There are good chances to be hit in the forehead if you climb into a diving 109 or climb to engage a bomber.
Judjung from the report above she was most likely killed in the air.

Not nessacaeraly. the report says she was found UNDER THE WING OF HER AIRCRAFT
Now the reports of Junior Lieutenant Ivan Borisenko match what her Mechanic Inna tels us in "a dance with death". she was found under the wing.
If she was killed in the air....how would she have gotten out of the cockpit and under the wing? a shot from a HMG from an aircraft hitter her in the fore head would have most likly killed her instantly. If that was the case some one removed her from the crashed plane. I find this scenerio highly unlikely. i.e. possible but not probible.

I would be more inclined to belive she crash landed, and climbed out committing suicide to avoid capture, or was drug out, wounded and unable to put up much of a fight, and exicuted on the spot.
Let us all remember that she was quite famouse and the germans knew of her well. which is why they singled her out in the engament. They weren't hunting her exclusivly, but it's my belive that she was a prime target on the luftwaffe's agenda once they had her cornerd with an advantige. And once they had her dead to rights they made an example of her.

JSG72
06-05-2008, 04:57 PM
Ok! Couple of beers and No references of Lilyas demise to hand.

But consider this.

It is established through Research,nowadays!

That Lilya was known to the American and Luftwaffe hierarchy.
Does that tell us. That every pilot or soldier on the ground new of her?

Perhaps not.(I didn't and I am a Luft fan. With hindsight!)

Supposing? She even crash landed and was alive. But within German lines. A group or an individual soldier may have confronted her and shot her on the spot. and on inspection saw that she was a Front line female pilot. (Something that didn't happen within the German Army/Luftwaffe at that time.) Therefore, they being ignorant of the fact that the VVs employed women as pilots.
And so perhaps may have been embarassed and hid the evidence under the wing. (Perhaps thinking that in the Maelstrom of war. It is just another downed enemy plane and will be looked upon as such by any passing Infantry/tank/recce column?)

It is not until formal I.D. is eventualy found and relayed to anyone that is aware of the significance. That the quest for the perpetrator begins?

And by this time that certain individual has been themselves a victim of War.

Just a thought?
And of course. Nothing that can be solved through recorded history. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

And that is where, many an unsolved case will end up. Another victim of War. Just because she has a name that you, recognise. Does not mean that you can trace every step made throughout her life?

An interesting thread. All the same http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

JadehawkII
06-05-2008, 05:54 PM
Howdy all,
I cant remember for the life of me, but I thought I heard in some article that Lilya did in fact crash land her Yak, but was shot by the advancing German troops.
After the Germans left the area, she was then buried under the left wing as was the custom at the time for fallen air warriors. Later in the war when the war front was far away in Western Europe, the airplane was salvaged and the salvage crew did not know there was a pilot buried there and that's supposedly how she ended up being lost for a period of time.

Take it for that's it's worth as I cannot find the actual article yet. I just hope this jars someone's mind and eventually the article will show up.

If I find it I'll post here again.

Halfen
06-05-2008, 09:41 PM
From what I have read She and 5 other Yaks had an altercation with 30Ju 88s and their 12 escorts.
This was on 01-August-1943. She did not survive.
At this time She carried a wound from a previous engagement from 16-July-1943.

Copperhead311th
06-06-2008, 08:11 AM
ok guys we're getting a little bit to deep into this. At this point all i'd like to do is to nail down which unit actually shot her down, and IF possible pinpoint a few possible canidate pilots from the unit who filed the claim. At the moment it looks in the records that it could have been JG 52 or JG54.

Also i'd still like to know the idenity of the Barron she shot down in 42. that would be a huge find in and of it's self.

remember: for my purposes, the information doesn't have to be factual.....just close.
The thing about writting a work of fiction that's based on historical fact is that a lot can be left up to the authors interpritation. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SabreF-86
05-25-2009, 09:13 PM
Ok, according to the maps I pulled up, the town she was found near is about 50km NW of Tambov, before you get to Micurinsk. Its NE of Voronehz about 30-40km so the second map isn't anywhere near where they say she was found.

As for her killing herself, I'd say its possible to avoid capture and rape. But if the shot was to the forehead as reported, I'd say no. She may have been dead at the stick, and the aircraft landed realtively softly, then someone pulled her out and left her buried under the wing. If the aircraft was salvaged they would have pulled the engine, intruments and guns. Maybe even the tube fuselage but I doubt they'd waste effort on a pair of splintered wooden wings. So that may be a viable possibility. Or she could have bellied in, and been overrun by the troops in the area. Shot while resisting capture? Buried by someone later? I doubt the German infantry would waste time on a burial.

Its is nice to know that she was eventually found and identified. Even that long after the war it would bring closure to her family.

Sabre

Heliopause
05-26-2009, 09:09 AM
The sources name the Russian time (zone) or the German time (zone)?

Boandlgramer
05-26-2009, 10:42 AM
Maybe this link would help you a little bit, Copperhead.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/...ghlight=Lilya+Litvak (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=15316&highlight=Lilya+Litvak)

Edit:
and this one:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/...99&highlight=Litvyak (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=1499&highlight=Litvyak)

na85
05-26-2009, 11:15 AM
Holy thread-dig, Batman.

danjama
05-26-2009, 04:13 PM
ibtl

Tully__
05-28-2009, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by danjama:
ibtl
Why would we lock it? It's nearly a year old but there's nothing wrong with it.

On the other hand, I'm tempted to give a week or two off to IBTL spammers ...... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Crash_Moses
05-28-2009, 08:27 AM
Holy history, Batman. As far as thread digging goes this one is a gem. Read the whole thing including the links. Gonna show it to my daughter as soon as she gets home from school.

S!

KIMURA
05-28-2009, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
ok guys we're getting a little bit to deep into this. At this point all i'd like to do is to nail down which unit actually shot her down, and IF possible pinpoint a few possible canidate pilots from the unit who filed the claim. At the moment it looks in the records that it could have been JG 52 or JG54.

Also i'd still like to know the idenity of the Barron she shot down in 42. that would be a huge find in and of it's self.

remember: for my purposes, the information doesn't have to be factual.....just close.
The thing about writting a work of fiction that's based on historical fact is that a lot can be left up to the authors interpritation. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I suggest also take account to other fighter types claimed by these Jagdgeschwaders on that day and not only running into the Yak-1 thing direction. Keep in mind that mis-ID of E/A was rather common in combat envireoment and under battle stress. So a LaGG-3 claim could also be Litvaks Yak-1.