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View Full Version : 4.08 F6F-3 Best ROC Supercharger Settings per Altitude



AKA_TAGERT
04-15-2007, 10:56 AM
The purpose of this test is to determine the best altitude(s) to switch the supercharger (SC). I did this test because while doing a F6F ROC I realized that the real world altitudes specified in the real world data (RWD) were NOT the best altitudes for the game. To determine what those altitudes are I had to do a test per SC setting. The F6F-3 has three different SC settings:

SC1 MAIN
SC2 AUXILIARY LO
SC3 AUXILIARY HI

The altitudes at which the ROCs cross over is the best in-game altitude to switch the SC.

The full report is at http://www.airwarfare.com (http://www.airwarfare.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=8092#8092)

Whirlin_merlin
04-16-2007, 05:09 AM
Cheers for this I had a feeling I was switching to SC2 to late (9000ft) and SC3 to early (15000ft). Based on my hazzy memory or the RW advice to pilots.

TY

Fireball_
04-16-2007, 01:15 PM
Appreciate your work on this. This supercharger stuff always gets me confused.

One question I've got. Your tests were done at 110% power, 60" MP. Would the results you got for switching the supercharger (5700 ft and 16,250 ft) would be different at other throttle/MP settings? Or are those altitudes the optimal switching altitudes regardless?

VMF-214_HaVoK
04-16-2007, 01:29 PM
Olegs readme says 8200 feet for stage two for all US aircraft. So you test proves better performance at 5700 feet?

I tried 5700 feet in the Corsair last night instead of 8200 feet. We was flying a coop and I easily pulled away from the rest of the flight. I back her down to 65% throttle and still maintained my distance. Perhaps the same is for the Corsair. If these test are accurate it could explain some performance issues people have complained about.

Thanks Tag.

S~

AKA_TAGERT
04-16-2007, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Fireball_:
Appreciate your work on this. This supercharger stuff always gets me confused.

One question I've got. Your tests were done at 110% power, 60" MP. Would the results you got for switching the supercharger (5700 ft and 16,250 ft) would be different at other throttle/MP settings? Or are those altitudes the optimal switching altitudes regardless? That is a good question!

To be honest, I don't know.. game wise that is. In the real world, I would expect that to be the case.. but as for the game I did not test for that so I don't know.

AKA_TAGERT
04-16-2007, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Olegs readme says 8200 feet for stage two for all US aircraft. So you test proves better performance at 5700 feet?
As Fireball pointed out.. when at 110% (60"MP). Not sure about other settings.. If I have time I will test that too.

On that note, also thinking about doing a prop pitch test too.. In that I hear guys sware up and down that the 'FEEL' a big difference in climbs by setting prop pitch to 85%.


Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
I tried 5700 feet in the Corsair last night instead of 8200 feet. We was flying a coop and I easily pulled away from the rest of the flight. I back her down to 65% throttle and still maintained my distance.
Really?

Thats cool! In that I was wondering if the PW 2800 engine model would be the same for all PW 2800 engines. Except for the P47 that where it a different setup that is automatically controled.


Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Perhaps the same is for the Corsair. If these test are accurate it could explain some performance issues people have complained about.
Maybe.. too early to tell just yet. Next thing is to see how it affects the top speeds.. but from what you saying it looks like it does?


Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Thanks Tag.
My pleasue! Glad to see some folks getting some use out of it! S!

VW-IceFire
04-16-2007, 03:06 PM
Thanks Tagert...if this applies to the Corsair as well then it'll be very important information for my next campaign and I'd like to include a very brief summary on the best altitudes to change the stages at.

AKA_TAGERT
04-17-2007, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Thanks Tagert...if this applies to the Corsair as well then it'll be very important information for my next campaign and I'd like to include a very brief summary on the best altitudes to change the stages at. NP my pleasure! Ill try and do the same test for the F4u this weekend, but first I have to finish up the Bf-109K-4 ROC test analysis I am putting togther to send to Oleg. Which F4u would you guys like to see tested first?

Pollack2006
04-17-2007, 08:00 AM
Nice work on the supercharger tests, i've generally used my ears to gauge when to shift up or down but i's good to have real figures. Also, as far as i'm aware all Corsairs/F4U have identical FMs.

JG53Frankyboy
04-17-2007, 08:00 AM
unfortuntly the planemanual ist often very old/incorrect in the shift altitudes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

i mostly looking first in the il2 compare to watch at what alts the speedcurves have their bend. than i double check it in the game - looking after the engine revs.

and il2compare is having the first bend for the F4U at around 1800m , ~5900feet.

AKA_TAGERT
04-17-2007, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
unfortuntly the planemanual ist often very old/incorrect in the shift altitudes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

i mostly looking first in the il2 compare to watch at what alts the speedcurves have their bend. than i double check it in the game - looking after the engine revs.

and il2compare is having the first bend for the F4U at around 1800m , ~5900feet. That is a good point!

In that IL2C uses the AI to fly the planes.. and it's make since that the AI would know what are the best 'game' settings to shift at!

Interesting that they shift at ~5900 and my test found that ~5700.. Where are both different than the real world data altitudes.

So, IL2C would be very handy to find these points! That and IL2C has allready done all the tests!

So maybe Ill switch my focus to prop pitch settings.. In that we don't know what effect those have, or what the AI used. Too bad IL2C did not record the prop pitch settings the AI used. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

JG53Frankyboy
04-17-2007, 08:33 AM
about prop ptich, something that gave me a "surprise" last times:
flying a Fw190D-9'44 on manual prop, pitch set at 0% with 110% throttle, Boost engaged..........

and i thought before it should fall out of the sky with these setting - man what was i wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

AKA_TAGERT
04-17-2007, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
about prop ptich, something that gave me a "surprise" last times:
flying a Fw190D-9'44 on manual prop, pitch set at 0% with 110% throttle, Boost engaged..........

and i thought before it should fall out of the sky with these setting - man what was i wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Really?
Ill have to take a look at that! Sounds like a variation of the old 109 prop pithc cheat? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

VW-IceFire
04-17-2007, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Thanks Tagert...if this applies to the Corsair as well then it'll be very important information for my next campaign and I'd like to include a very brief summary on the best altitudes to change the stages at. NP my pleasure! Ill try and do the same test for the F4u this weekend, but first I have to finish up the Bf-109K-4 ROC test analysis I am putting togther to send to Oleg. Which F4u would you guys like to see tested first? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
In theory all of the Corsairs are identical as far as engine is concerned. I think even the Corsair Mark I (F4U-1) is the same even when it shouldn't be.

The two most used versions are the F4U-1C and 1D...those two might hold the most usefulness but I would suspect that your test should show virtually the same values.

OMK_Hand
04-18-2007, 02:12 PM
Hi AKA_TAGERT.

Just out of interest, these are the given climb power settings in a copy of F6F notes.

For a high power climb:

Cowl 1/3 open
S.L to 7,000': Neutral blower, 2700 rpm, maintain 52.5" mp up to full throttle (100%), 130 Knots IAS.
7,000' to 22,000': Low blower, 2550 rpm, maintain 49.5" mp up to full throttle, 130 Knots IAS.
22,000' and above: High blower, 2550 rpm, maintain 49.5" mp up to full throttle, 130 knots IAS.

For a cruise climb (much more sedate):
Cowl closed
S.L to 12,000': Neutral blower, 2250 rpm, maintain 34" mp up to full throttle (100%), 145 Knots IAS (˜clean'. 140 with tanks)
12,000' to 25,000': Low blower, 2100 rpm, maintain 34" mp up to full throttle, 145 knots IAS.
25,000' and above: High blower, 2050 rpm, maintain 34" mp up to full throttle, 135 knots IAS.

These numbers are certainly achievable in the game, with no overheating evident in either case. In real life there's more than one approximate altitude for Blower shifting evident. In the game, the relationships seem to be constant across these power settings.

This is interesting also, given as a ˜rule for cruising':

Use no more than 34" mp, up to full throttle. Use rpm to govern speed.
In Neutral blower, no more than 2250 rpm
In Low blower, no more than 2150 rpm
In High blower, no more than 2050 rpm
No lower than 1300 rpm in all blower settings.

It's different for the F4U.

Just for information.

Viper2005_
04-18-2007, 02:58 PM
It might be interesting to investigate the best altitude to change gears in level speed runs; they should be higher because of ram effect. The gauges certainly imply that this is the case, but are they telling the truth?

Needless to say this is a general thing; it applies to any other a/c you might want to test.

AKA_TAGERT
04-18-2007, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by OMK_Hand:
Hi AKA_TAGERT.

Just out of interest, these are the given climb power settings in a copy of F6F notes.

For a high power climb:

Cowl 1/3 open
S.L to 7,000': Neutral blower, 2700 rpm, maintain 52.5" mp up to full throttle (100%), 130 Knots IAS.
7,000' to 22,000': Low blower, 2550 rpm, maintain 49.5" mp up to full throttle, 130 Knots IAS.
22,000' and above: High blower, 2550 rpm, maintain 49.5" mp up to full throttle, 130 knots IAS.

For a cruise climb (much more sedate):
Cowl closed
S.L to 12,000': Neutral blower, 2250 rpm, maintain 34" mp up to full throttle (100%), 145 Knots IAS (˜clean'. 140 with tanks)
12,000' to 25,000': Low blower, 2100 rpm, maintain 34" mp up to full throttle, 145 knots IAS.
25,000' and above: High blower, 2050 rpm, maintain 34" mp up to full throttle, 135 knots IAS.

These numbers are certainly achievable in the game, with no overheating evident in either case.
That data looks to be on pare with the RWD over at M. Williams sight for those MP settings


Originally posted by OMK_Hand:
In real life there's more than one approximate altitude for Blower shifting evident.
Roger, in that there is more than one power setting. But from what I understand thus far there is only one best setting per power setting. Just to be clear, the test I did was for the 60"MP case. I picked that one in that appears to be the MAX power setting allowed in the game. That and most simmers tend to run around at full power most of the time! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Originally posted by OMK_Hand:
In the game, the relationships seem to be constant across these power settings.
Not sure about that yet.. I have only tested it at one power setting. I could run it at MIL (100%) to see if the cross overs in points in alt change ingame for different power settings.


Originally posted by OMK_Hand:
This is interesting also, given as a ˜rule for cruising':

Use no more than 34" mp, up to full throttle. Use rpm to govern speed.
In Neutral blower, no more than 2250 rpm
In Low blower, no more than 2150 rpm
In High blower, no more than 2050 rpm
No lower than 1300 rpm in all blower settings.
Cool! Say if you like F6F info you should check out M. Williams sight! He has alot of good data on the F6F!


Originally posted by OMK_Hand:
It's different for the F4U.

Just for information.
Different? As in altitudes to switch the SC, for real or sim?

MAILMAN------
04-18-2007, 07:44 PM
With the Wildcat, Corsair and Hellcat I happen to fly at normal power settings (2550 RPM and the appropriate MAP for the altitude and blower setting) unless I am taking off or in combat. I feel this gives me some extra time (lower temperatures) before the overheat warning comes up operating at max power in combat.

My understanding is that with a constant speed propeller, like most American Aircraft used, Prop control sets a specific RPM and the throttle as it is advanced and ******ed actually causes the pitch of the propeller blades to change automatically in order to maintain the set RPM.

For the American Planes such as the Wildcat, Hellcat & Corsair does the prop pitch that we map in the game act as a prop control that we use to set a specific RPM and does the throttle actually change the pitch of the blades automatically to maintain that RPM as we advance and ****** the throttle?

In these three aircraft maximum Horse Power is achieved with 2700 RPM (100% Prop Pitch Setting in the game) and maximun MAP (110% Throttle setting in the game) in Neutral Blower / Supercharger at Sea Level for Takeoff. Anything less than 100% RPM gives you less HP therefore less than top speed. This should hold true through all altitudes if the game's prop pitch control for American Aircraft controls RPM and not the actual pitch of the propeller blades.

So the question that must be answered is:

Does the Prop Pitch control that we map in the game serve as a manual prop pitch control on planes that had it and does it set the RPM on aircraft that have constant speed propellers whose blade pitch is controlled by the throttle?

OMK_Hand
04-19-2007, 02:27 AM
Pilot's Manual
The Chance Vought F4U Corsair
US Models F4U-1, FG-1, F3A-1
British Corsair I, II, III

Military power climb:
2700 rpm 125 knots
S.L. to 1,700': 52.5" Neutral blower
1,700' to 5,500': Full Throttle. Shift to Low blower when mp drops to 45"
5,500' to 16,000': 53" Low blower
16,000' to 18,000': Full Throttle. Shift to High blower when mp drops to 50"
18,000' to 21,000': 53" High blower

Normal climb:
2550 rpm 125 knots
S.L. to 5,500': 44" Neutral blower
5,500' to 7,000': Full Throttle. Shift to Low blower when mp drops to 41.5"
7,000' to 16,500': 49.5" Low blower
16,500' to 18,000': Full Throttle. Shift to High blower when mp drops to 47"
18,000' to 22,000': 49.5" High blower

The F6F source is:
Pilots Handbook of Flight Instructions for Navy models
F6F-3, F6F-3N, F6F-5, F6F-5N

MAILMAN------
04-19-2007, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by OMK_Hand:
Pilot's Manual
The Chance Vought F4U Corsair
US Models F4U-1, FG-1, F3A-1
British Corsair I, II, III

Military power climb:
2700 rpm 125 knots
S.L. to 1,700': 52.5" Neutral blower
1,700' to 5,500': Full Throttle. Shift to Low blower when mp drops to 45"
5,500' to 16,000': 53" Low blower
16,000' to 18,000': Full Throttle. Shift to High blower when mp drops to 50"
18,000' to 21,000': 53" High blower

Normal climb:
2550 rpm 125 knots
S.L. to 5,500': 44" Neutral blower
5,500' to 7,000': Full Throttle. Shift to Low blower when mp drops to 41.5"
7,000' to 16,500': 49.5" Low blower
16,500' to 18,000': Full Throttle. Shift to High blower when mp drops to 47"
18,000' to 22,000': 49.5" High blower

The F6F source is:
Pilots Handbook of Flight Instructions for Navy models
F6F-3, F6F-3N, F6F-5, F6F-5N

Go to Zeno's Warbird site. Select the film for the F4U-1 Corsair {Need Real Player to view) which is free. It is a training film from starting to takeoff to landing. This F4U-1 had the P & W R-2800-8 engine with no water injection.
In the film takeoff / military power is prop control set for 2700 RPM and MAP at 52.5" and a climb rate of 3000 feet per minute in neutral blower and cowl flaps 2/3 open. This could be maintained for a maximum of 5 minutes. After 5 minutes normal power was to be used, 2550 RPM and 44" MAP and a climb rate of 2000 feet per minute in neutral blower and cowl flaps open 2/3. In a normal power climb the blower was shifted from neutral to low at 8000 feet, RPM is 2550, MAP is 48" and continue to climb at 2000 FPM. At 13,500 Feet the blower was shifted to High, RPM is 2550 RPM, MAP is 49.5" and continue to climb at 2000 FPM. This inromation is directly out of that film. There is a similar film for hte F6F-3 (which states that the flaps had only two positions by the way.)

-HH-Quazi
04-19-2007, 06:04 AM
I just want to say "Thank You Tagert!" for taking the time to do this testing.

Just out of curiosity, I will ask a m8 that flew F6F's in WWII if he can remember at what altitudes he would engage the 2nd & 3rd stage SC. I think he started out in F6F-3's & finished in F6F-5's. He also flew the Corsair at times. Not sure which model(s) though.

I will post back in this thread when I get any answers from him. It will be interesting to see either how close, or how far away these ac in RL are to these ac in our virtual IL-2 skies.

Thanks again Tagert sir!

AKA_TAGERT
04-19-2007, 07:53 AM
My Pleasure!

Glad to see so many folks getting some use out of it!

OMK_Hand
04-19-2007, 12:20 PM
Hi MAILMAN------

"Go to Zeno's Warbird site. Select the film for the F4U-1 Corsair {Need Real Player to view) which is free. It is a training film from starting to takeoff to landing. This F4U-1 had the P & W R-2800-8 engine with no water injection...... This inromation is directly out of that film. There is a similar film for hte F6F-3 (which states that the flaps had only two positions by the way.)"

I have those films. The manuals are included on the disks when you buy from Zeno. It's interesting, differences between the training film and the notes.