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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 02:07 PM
Hey guys and gals...

I saw some of you recommending Fighter Combat by Robert Shaw.

On Amazon.co.uk though, there are 2 books by Robert Shaw Fighter Combat: Tactics and Manuevers and Fighter Combat: The Art and Science of Air-to-Air Combar.

Which one is the one to get?!?

Thanks
-Si

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 02:07 PM
Hey guys and gals...

I saw some of you recommending Fighter Combat by Robert Shaw.

On Amazon.co.uk though, there are 2 books by Robert Shaw Fighter Combat: Tactics and Manuevers and Fighter Combat: The Art and Science of Air-to-Air Combar.

Which one is the one to get?!?

Thanks
-Si

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 02:12 PM
Both without doubt.

Fighter Combat Air Tactics and Manuevering was his orginal from around 1985 or so. I'm going to order the newer one today now that you mention it primarily based on the strength of his first work.

After reading it however, I warn you that you will never respect the movie Top Gun again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif




TX-Zen
Black 6
TX Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM only)


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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 02:22 PM
Thanks TX-Zen!

I can't afford both though, and looking at Amazons Dates they were both published the same year.

I guess I wont go wrong with the tactics and maneuvering book will I?


-Si

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 02:42 PM
If it is just for FB then I would advise you to think twice. There is a lot of free material out there on squad sites. Also Much of Shaw's book is (understandably) geared towards jets. I would suggest you read Mark Shot's E-book 'Shoot to Kill' which is free. Fighter combat is an interesting read if you don't mind spending the money but as i said there is heaps and heaps of sites with good
WWII combat tactics that are more relivent to the way the game works.

Just much humble opinion of course.


<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 02:51 PM
Shaw's main strength is that he explains the mechanics and part of the physics behind WHY planes do certain things and then combines them with real life examples of theory turned practical.

If you want to get to the root cause of tactics, this is the book to get. It is about the science of how energy works and where to apply it and that is why it is so valuable.

I agree also with looking for specific books on the tactics employed by WW2 props, always a good idea to read read and then read some more. But Shaw's work should not be underestimated...it is the principles of air to air combat themselves that he describes and once you understand the foundation he lays out, specific tactics used throughout history make more sense.

DKP:
Thanks for the shoot to kill recommendation, I'll try and find a link to check it out.

TX-Zen
Black 6
TX Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM only)


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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 02:57 PM
Heres a site with the link

http://www.fubarsquad.com/tips5.html


<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 03:12 PM
DKP wrote:
- Heres a site with the link
-



Many thanks DKP, S~



TX-Zen
Black 6
TX Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM only)


http://www.txsquadron.com/uploaded/tx-zen/Zensig2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 03:18 PM
It's a great book (Fighter Combat = Tactics and Manouvering) but i doubt it will help a great deal when it comes to flying FB.

When you're engaged against an enemy then the situation is very fluid. No diagrams can hope to demonstrate the myriad tiny factors that are often the difference between a kill and a killing. Mini-stalls, flap usage, dummies and the old fave "pull-as-hard-as-possible-into-an-emergency-snap-stall" are only a few of the factors to deal with or employ when up in the virtual skies. Words or pictures will never convey these subtleties.

It is fun, though, going through the book after a sweaty session and discovering you were unconsciously using tactics demonstrated on the pages before you.

So, a great book in it's own right but be careful not to live by it.


Lixma,

Blitzpig.

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 04:00 PM
Aye, but the subtle aspect of the book is that it teaches you the theory to make it more likely you will be in the most advantageous position before the fight begins. Much of what he says is about the preplanning and pre engagement decisions a pilot has to make because you are right, once the battle is joined it's usually too fluid to calculate according to his diagrams.





TX-Zen
Black 6
TX Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM only)


http://www.txsquadron.com/uploaded/tx-zen/Zensig2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 04:11 PM
Another worth reading is "Long Reach", a survey of ~2 dozen fighter pilots (P-38, P-47, P-51) focussing on the tactics used against the LW.

Osprey has published these notes in "VIII Fighter Command at War" ISBN1-85532-907-7


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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 04:14 PM
It is news to me to see that there is another book by Robert Shaw on the subject. Thanks for the reference.

Fighter Combat is a very good source for information concerning Fighter Combat and it includes many specific references to WWII fighter combat.

If I had to pick only one book on the subject of WWII fighter combat my choice is Fighter Combat by Robert Shaw

Then again I don't have The Art and Science of Air-to-Air Combat.



JG14_Josf

JG14_Josf

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 04:21 PM
TX-Zen wrote:
- Aye, but the subtle aspect of the book is that it
- teaches you the theory to make it more likely you
- will be in the most advantageous position before the
- fight begins. Much of what he says is about the
- preplanning and pre engagement decisions a pilot has
- to make

I do completely agree with TX-Zen here. It really depends the level of interest by the reader. If you are after a couple of quick fast tips on how to stay alive in FB and shoot down a couple of baddies then go else where. But...if like Tx-Zen says, you are interested in the science of combat then it makes a good read. He cleverly displays this in each tactic showing one aircraft better at vertical maneuvers and the other a turn fighter. For me this is something I like to do in FB (Energy fight).


<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 04:30 PM
A few guys in our squad (myself included) have this book Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering. The strongest aspects in relation to FB and flight sims is in the 2V1 scenarios. it details the approach, setup and possibilities in dealing with a lone bandit (even a good one /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

I've got several hundred books in my aviation library, but only picked this one up at the suggestion of Sammie. It's a good read either way if you're interested in air to air combat.



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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 04:31 PM
HEY! Don't believe the people that say this book will not be applicable to FB. BULL$HIT! Just skip the parts having to do with missles. The rest of the book discusses many things that are fundamental to ALL air-to-air combat, i.e. energy, angles, flight path separation, gunnery, guns defense, scissors, yo-yos, team tactics (VERY good section here; read it and you'll see what I mean), dissimilar aircraft engagements, etc. etc. etc.

I bet some of the people that disparage it haven't even read it. Reading this book is the single most important thing you can do to improve you chances in the air.

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 04:33 PM
Bronco_Nagurski wrote:
- HEY! Don't believe the people that say this book
- will not be applicable to FB. BULL$HIT! Just skip
- the parts having to do with missles. The rest of the
- book discusses many things that are fundamental to
- ALL air-to-air combat, i.e. energy, angles, flight
- path separation, gunnery, guns defense, scissors,
- yo-yos, team tactics (VERY good section here; read
- it and you'll see what I mean), dissimilar aircraft
- engagements, etc. etc. etc.
-
- I bet some of the people that disparage it haven't
- even read it. Reading this book is the single most
- important thing you can do to improve you chances in
- the air.
-
-

Nobody said this book is not applicable to FB




<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 04:34 PM
Your reading comprehension is lacking then.

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 04:37 PM
Bronco_Nagurski wrote:

"... Reading this book is the single most
important thing you can do to improve you chances in
the air."


Well, this and a 3 Ghz processor, a Gig of RAM and a blistering fast vid card don't hurt either! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif








http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 04:41 PM
LMAO


Show me one line here that says this book WILL NOT be applicable.

The closest is one person who doubts it will be MUCH use but then goes on to say how he was amused that he found himself using tactics.

I suggest you calm down a bit before you get all upset.


<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 09:24 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Another worth reading is "Long Reach", a survey of
- ~2 dozen fighter pilots (P-38, P-47, P-51) focussing
- on the tactics used against the LW.
-
- Osprey has published these notes in "VIII Fighter
- Command at War" ISBN1-85532-907-7

Hey thanks for the tip milomorai, I had seen this book before, but since a mustang was on the cover I just thought it was another mustang mania book. I didnt know they had stuff in there concerning 47s and 38s too. thank you for the enlightenment.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 04:39 AM
Hey DK, calm down yourself. There are several references that advise against reading the book.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 05:19 AM
Gentlemen,

We have a pretty constructive thread going here, lets not let it dissolve into any negative BS shall we?

To all concerned my recommendation is to let any perceived issue slide, it's not important who started it or who is right or wrong. We as a community spend too much time bickering over details rather than using that same energy to do something constructive.

A forum has it's own rules of E fighting, as do most things in life...take a minute to consider how you want to spend your E in the first place....something useful or something useless?

I say to stay on topic, share your knowledge and let it benefit those who are interested in learning more.

TX-Zen
Black 6
TX Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM only)


http://www.txsquadron.com/uploaded/tx-zen/Zensig2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 07:17 AM
To get back on message let me add this...

I've been simming for almost seven years and learned much from actual experience (i.e. going up and getting waxed by more experienced folks) but I must say no single thing has enhanced my flying more than reading Shaw's book.

Without being shrill or disrespectful, I must strongly disagree with the poster who stated Shaw wasn't relevant to FB. The majority of Shaw's anecdotes are from WW2, from Robert Johnson's mock dogfight (where he bested a Spit while flying a Jug) to John Godfrey's narrow escape from a FW D9 in his P-51B.

More importantly, the theories and tactics he imparts are TIMELESS. When interviewed after downing the infamous Viet Namese Ace, Colonel Tomb, F4 Ace Duke Cunningham said the lessons he learned at the Naval Fighter Weapons School, which enabled him to prevail, were direct descendents of the concepts WW1 aces like Boelke, Immelman and Von Richtofen employed.

Indeed, the only areas not immediately germane to FB are those that deal with all aspect missiles, though I must say many of the ideas about jinking missiles translate into defeating certain types of adversaries -- you'll have to read Shaw to understand what I mean.

A final caveat...

Don't expect to read Shaw and become a stud overnight. You must read his book. Then fly. Then revisit the book, pick a particular topic and study it and try to employ it -- out of plane jinks, yo-yos, defensive and offensive barrel rolls, diving extensions, pitchbacks, two circle versus on circle fights and when to emply them, vertical fighting, etc. The list is endless.

Over time what you'll find is as you fly, you will recoginize certain "mental pictures" and know the appropriate moves/tactics to deal with them. You won't even think about them, you'll just find yourself doing it. That's the really fun part, when the concepts sink in, you emply them and see they actually work.

It's one thing to fly by the seat of one's pants and win, quite another to stack the odds heavily in your favor and know why you won.

As others have stated, there are no "magic bullets" -- indeed, Shaw freely admits this in his book -- only training, dedication, and skill that comes from experience mixed with courage and passion. But if you're serious about becoming a better virtual pilot, read his book. Again and again. It's worth it.

Fight to fly. Fly to fight. Fight to win.

Purity is possible, if you turn your life into a line of poetry written with a splash of blood. -- Yukio Mishima.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 07:15 PM
I was pleasantly surprised how relevant 'Fighter Combat'is to WW2 air combat. In my ignorance I had assumed that modern jet combat was all fire and forget missile stuff, but Shaw spends a great deal of time on guns fighting, he draws extensively on WW2 experience and shows how the basic principles of air to air combat remain fundamentally the same. I freely confess I found a lot of it quite hard to follow, but the text is leavened with some lovely touches of anecdote and black fighter pilot humour. A great book.