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zebulon64
02-15-2007, 11:43 AM
A FW190 AI out climbs and out runs a YAK9

A YAK9 AI out climbs and out runs a FW190

If you fly a YAK9 at high speed no way to follow a FW190 AI in a tight turn.

If you fly a FW190 and get chased by a YAK9 at high speed - make a tight turn and for sure the YAK turns better and sure you go down in flames.

What a stupid programming is this...???

Cajun76
02-15-2007, 11:52 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Which model of Focke Wulf?

zebulon64
02-15-2007, 11:56 AM
FW190 A5

arjisme
02-15-2007, 12:01 PM
I think his point was that you can take two planes and whichever one the AI flies, it will outperform the one you fly. One reason this happens is the AI is perfect at managing its plane.

DKoor
02-15-2007, 12:13 PM
Ai is laughable in historical context, all right.
You certainly can't fly your plane to it's historical strength vs. Ai.
It got grotesque in few later patches.

Almost all contemporary fighters will outclimb you, even if you should have advantage in RoC.

It's quite easily to check it out.

Try for instance ridiculous fight like you in FW-190D vs. 4xI-153 or something like that. You start with initial advantage.

knightflyte
02-15-2007, 12:17 PM
It's been pretty well documented (much to my chagrin) that AI cheats. AI as it stands now with today's technology is not advanced far enough to handle dogfighting as a human would. So it has to cheat by being able to outclimb or not have to worry about complex engine management etc.

It's the ONLY area of this sim I abhor. It's frustrating to use tactics that you know are historically accurate and not be able to use as an advantage like you would in real life.

I'm REALLY hoping that BoB can at least come to terms with better trade offs to simulate AI behaviour.

Sure, ground details are nice. Pretty skins and cockpits will dazzle, but if AI cheats in BoB like it has to now I know I'll be severely dissappointed.

I'd rather have a decent AI routine (even if it just simulated AI) than individual spokes and suspension in a tank.

zebulon64
02-15-2007, 12:18 PM
That than is a " the computer is alway the winner" programming since there is no info whatsoever how to fly a certain plane to its full potential.

To figure that out yourself can take you years - I doubt anyone normal of mind has the patience .

DKoor
02-15-2007, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by zebulon64:
That than is a " the computer is alway the winner" programming since there is no info whatsoever how to fly a certain plane to its full potential.

To figure that out yourself can take you years - I doubt anyone normal of mind has the patience . I bolded the line - you got that wrong.

To figure it out it takes let's say a month or two max.

But takes years to learn a winner tactic... if that can be learned at all.

I saw literally hundreds of players, some of whom were exceptional in this game and all those exceptionals had one thing shared; excellent tactic.
Because they will never let you to beat them, they will only allow you to draw the fight, and only if you got everything right.
How?
Because they wont start the fight if they are in disadvantage, and they will only start with advantage.

If you like the game stick with it, play online if you don't like Ai.

p-11.cAce
02-15-2007, 12:27 PM
The AI does not "cheat" - it uses a simplified FM so it does not take a $7000+ uber-computer to run the sim http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I agree with knightflyte in that I would rather BoB look like the current sim but offer superior AI, procedural, and dynamic campaign options than have the same sim dressed up with a lot of eyecandy.

Cajun76
02-15-2007, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by ar****e:
I think his point was that you can take two planes and whichever one the AI flies, it will outperform the one you fly. <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">One reason this happens is the AI is perfect at managing its plane.</span>

Bingo! It takes time and patience, but it can be done. Faster fighters can dictate the fight. Don't bleed speed to make impossible shots with faster fighters.

If your slower, feint by breaking off, keeping your energy up, and make the other plane lose alt and\or energy to get to you. Then use your better maneuverability against him.

You can use the same tactics you use agianst a human player, but you have to increase the margins over the AI vs the Humans.

Cajun76
02-15-2007, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by zebulon64:
That than is a " the computer is alway the winner" programming since there is no info whatsoever how to fly a certain plane to its full potential.

To figure that out yourself can take you years - I doubt anyone normal of mind has the patience .

One way to learn is fly with a squad. Another is to read accounts of how various a/c matched up. Also, finding a plane you like and then dedicating to that type will help you learn how to use your best strengths to exploit the other planes biggest weaknesses.

bazzaah2
02-15-2007, 12:44 PM
AI is always perfectly trimmed, never has to worry about its engine overheating, has perfect SA and is immune to the effects of gravity.

The AI in this game is why I don't do campaigns any more.

I'm going to pay close attention to reviews of AI before I buy BOB.

Chris0382
02-15-2007, 12:54 PM
Ive noticed my Tempest getting outdone by the AI 109's

Haigotron
02-15-2007, 12:58 PM
Did Kasparov complain when he lost to big blue? nay...i believe we can all bow down to the mighty AI of il2 1946

ploughman
02-15-2007, 01:02 PM
Big blue didn't show up with four queens.

PBNA-Boosher
02-15-2007, 01:08 PM
Um.. wasn't it Deep Blue?

ploughman
02-15-2007, 01:16 PM
Oh Christ, I do hope that wasn't a freudian slip. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Marcel_Albert
02-15-2007, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by knightflyte:
It's been pretty well documented (much to my chagrin) that AI cheats. AI as it stands now with today's technology is not advanced far enough to handle dogfighting as a human would. So it has to cheat by being able to outclimb or not have to worry about complex engine management etc.

It's the ONLY area of this sim I abhor. It's frustrating to use tactics that you know are historically accurate and not be able to use as an advantage like you would in real life.

I'm REALLY hoping that BoB can at least come to terms with better trade offs to simulate AI behaviour.

Sure, ground details are nice. Pretty skins and cockpits will dazzle, but if AI cheats in BoB like it has to now I know I'll be severely dissappointed.

I'd rather have a decent AI routine (even if it just simulated AI) than individual spokes and suspension in a tank.

i fully agree , good post , the AI is one of the few things ( with the engine sounds) that could greatly benefit the immersion offline for Il-2 , if they were improved .


Currently , our AI is 5 years old , and even though it was something great 4-5 years ago , today it's getting seriously outdated , at such a point that i completely stopped playng offline because sometimes it's really ridiculous .
Well to be fair , you get the best and most fun and immersion out of this Awesome sim when you play it online .

But what i noticed is that when you play offline , you rarely can outrun the AI because the Ai always adapt to the aircraft you have , if you have a P-51 or P-40 , the AI will still outrun you by a small margin . Also , the AI doesn't know how to turn tight , you can outturn the AI Spitfire at low speed with a P-51 for instance , so to conclude , it's much easier against AI to take low speed manoeuvrable planes like I-16 , Spits , P-40 etc... rather than planes relying on speed , because whathever the plane you will take , the AI will still catch you or go slightly faster , so better take a slower plane but more manoeuvrable since the AI is so poor in tactics and low speed dogfights . well that is what i noticed .

Overall , the AI cheats a lot now , morethan ever before , especially when they are in veteran and ace level ( even UFO couldn't do some things they do , like decelerating from 600 to 250 kph in record time like if they had a pair of powerful airbrakes , making insane zooms/chandelles at the top of their climb or diving at 900kph with a Zero and close in on you on the deck while you are with a Hellcat at max speed and rad closed , no black outs , cloud visibility etc.. )

But at the same time , Oleg cannot make an AI that is in the same conditions as us virtual pilots , otherwise , we would need a supercomputer to run it at more than 20fps .

What i hope is that in BoB , the AI wil not trespass its plane limits in speed , climb and dive , and that the AI will be limited in G limit and night/cloud visibility , i think that would be much better . And i also hope that the AI will work better together and be tactically smarter .

But i doubt that Oleg will change the AI for Il-2 , they are now working exclusively on BoB , and the only thing to fix that AI problem is to play online and to avoid offline as much as possible except for testing , well that's what i do , otherwise i don't have fun and get disappointed by the lack of realism of the AI opponents .

Old_Canuck
02-15-2007, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by zebulon64:
That than is a " the computer is alway the winner" programming since there is no info whatsoever how to fly a certain plane to its full potential.

To figure that out yourself can take you years - I doubt anyone normal of mind has the patience .

Been trying to figure it out for years http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Still trying but it gets more enjoyable as more gets added to the knowledge base .. no-one has ever accused me of being "normal."

ploughman
02-15-2007, 02:03 PM
This is AI new to me.

QMB. Me in a Ki-61 Otsu,1943 AI in a F4F-4, 1942 and I didn't even touch him, shot at him but not really close, and yet he bailed...! He hit the silk.

& I was not credited with the kill. Me no touchy him.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

venny1962
02-15-2007, 02:27 PM
hey all <S!> i've been flyin IL2 for about a month now. (great sim BTW) before i fly online i like to practice offline for a while. i start with 1 vs 1, me in a 109g6r6 against a spit9 with icons off. although the ai has eternal E & impeccable aim he very rarely gets me. (only if i lose vis) i'm always able to manuver onto the ai's 6. i eventually kill it or run out out of ammo (i'm a bad shot!) 1 vs 2 the #2 ai just follows the #1. u have to watch it though sometimes the #2 breaks from the #1 & if you follow thw #2 the #1 will get u but not the other way around. the #2 won't attack untill the #1 is dead! 1 vs 3 is a real challenge!! i sometimes come out on top. what i'm tryin to say is that the ai offline is good practice even though they don't play by the rules!

Marcel_Albert
02-15-2007, 02:32 PM
Yea exactly , that 's why i said in my post that i hope that the AI will work better together in BoB , cause like you said , when they are 2 , only the leader is really offensive as the AI wingman just follow the leader until he dies which is not realistic and should be improved , especially in the situations where you are alone against 2 AI , they should use their numerical superiority .

knightflyte
02-15-2007, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ar****e:
I think his point was that you can take two planes and whichever one the AI flies, it will outperform the one you fly. <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">One reason this happens is the AI is perfect at managing its plane.</span>

Bingo! It takes time and patience, but it can be done. Faster fighters can dictate the fight. Don't bleed speed to make impossible shots with faster fighters.

If your slower, feint by breaking off, keeping your energy up, and make the other plane lose alt and\or energy to get to you. Then use your better maneuverability against him.

You can use the same tactics you use agianst a human player, but you have to increase the margins over the AI vs the Humans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I'd have no problem with the AI being so good at engine managememnt et al IF when I turn off CEM and overheating I'd have the same advantage....or that we'd be even. (I prefer the 'realism' of managing my engine though)

In the grand sceme of things THIS IS STILL a very fun sim, but I do get frustrated as primarily an off line player. I still manage my share of kills and completed missions.

I can boom n zoom with bombers with little problem. It's when I employ that tactic against an all seeing/ perfect energy managing and CEM fighter that I find disheartening.

Also as mentioned the AI is five years old....longer if you include development time. Most computers were probably P II or III with 500MHzs core speeds. The type of game this developed into has also changed. From a ground pounder into a 'be all end all' with almost every scenario included.

So I do cut the game some slack....and still have fun as mentioned.

I DO hope for the best with BoB.

With dual core procs and 2 - 4 Gig memory and video cards that have multitudes of bandwidth here now, I think a superior AI has a better opportunity to develop.

SeaFireLIV
02-15-2007, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Marcel_Albert:
Yea exactly , that 's why i said in my post that i hope that the AI will work better together in BoB , cause like you said , when they are 2 , only the leader is really offensive as the AI wingman just follow the leader until he dies which is not realistic and should be improved , especially in the situations where you are alone against 2 AI , they should use their numerical superiority .

Actually, many Leaders ORDERED their wingman to stick on their six no matter what, which many did, even to the detriment of being shot down.

Read up on it.

sukebeboy
02-15-2007, 04:18 PM
I don't see how anyone can defend the AI in IL2. It's laughably bad and the AI is NOT flying the plane to its full potential. Instead it flies in a completely predictable pattern. A few head on passes followed by corkscrewing barrel rolls until it's outnumbered and then a slow right hand climb to the stratosphere EVERY SINGLE TIME. Oh what fun! Crank acceleration to 8X and climb for 20 minutes, shoot down plane, land, repeat.

It's a farce. To those that claim that it's impossible to have AI without a $7,000 computer. That's a false argument. Look at BOB II. The AI, while nowhere near perfect, is far superior to IL2.

Marcel_Albert
02-15-2007, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Actually, many Leaders ORDERED their wingman to stick on their six no matter what, which many did, even to the detriment of being shot down.
Read up on it.

Of course mate that is an evidence .

but in 2 vs 1 situations ? that's what i was speaking about .

When you have clear numerical superiority , it is foolish not to use it , they did in real life , there's tons of reading about it too (ie : many cases among group kills/shared victories ) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WWSensei
02-15-2007, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by sukebeboy:
I don't see how anyone can defend the AI in IL2. It's laughably bad and the AI is NOT flying the plane to its full potential. Instead it flies in a completely predictable pattern. A few head on passes followed by corkscrewing barrel rolls until it's outnumbered and then a slow right hand climb to the stratosphere EVERY SINGLE TIME. Oh what fun! Crank acceleration to 8X and climb for 20 minutes, shoot down plane, land, repeat.

It's a farce. To those that claim that it's impossible to have AI without a $7,000 computer. That's a false argument. Look at BOB II. The AI, while nowhere near perfect, is far superior to IL2.

Agree that the AI in IL2 is ridiculously easy. It only has about 6-8 routines and they are pretty constant. Occasionally, if I get massively outnumbered my SA isn't good enough and one sneaks up on me.

As for BoB II, I'd disagree that it is superior. It's different but suffers the same repetitiveness issue. Then again, I may not have experienced fully since BoB II crashes to desktop so often on me I simply quit bothering to try and fly it anymore. It's a coaster for me now, however the BoB movie it came with is excellent!

XyZspineZyX
02-15-2007, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by zebulon64:

What a stupid programming is this...???

Yes, I know you're a better programmer but hey, you won't release your combat flight sim to the community, so we are stuck with this bad one

venny1962
02-15-2007, 05:26 PM
it's still great practice for situation awareness, merging, aiming, multiple cons vs 1 & defending the b & z!

R_Target
02-15-2007, 06:30 PM
The one that bugs me is the bandit that ignores my wingman (who's right in front of him) to shoot at me. And the jink/Split S at convergence range.

DKoor
02-16-2007, 12:13 AM
From experience in fighter vs. fighter combat I have I can tell that for instance with FW-190D9 you'll do a good job vs. pretty much any regular Ai (like Yak-9, Tempest), because of the insane top speed of that fighter... plus it is quite easy to obtain & maintain that speed.
Ai doesn't have answer to that.

And the one other thing; Ai can't stand that you have greater E than "him", so if you outclimb it (doesn't matter of you are slower too) he will try to match your climb... only if distance becomes too great he'll give up, and you can bnz him to death.

What I'm saying here is that Ai without energy is a turkey shot it doesn't matter what skill level it is on. You just get to it's six and you can usually blow him to pieces in the first pass because Ai likely wont react 'cos you have great approach speed. Even if he does his dance just park on it's six, no worries he wont try to outturn you even if it's FW-190 vs. Spitfire fight.

Main difference between rookie and ace Ai is that Ai will manage his energy state a lot better. Better sharpshooter? That doesn't worry me much either, I know how to evade Ai burst.
Only in quite rare cases they'll decide to follow your turn on the deck and that is where you are most likely going to get hit unless you outturn him hard which isn't always possible.

Charos
02-16-2007, 12:43 AM
Here's a quick test you can try:

Set up a QMB with a FW190 (a plane that runs fairly hot).

Set up any opponent and as soon as you enter the mission hit Auto pilot.

Now watch the Engine temperature gauge as the AI fire walls it around the sky.

This is one reason they can do what they do.


Another reason is they dont have to see IE: (Use the windscreen) to track a shot - you can also see this by useing the FW190 as above.

They can hide a shot out of view for over 5 seconds and still get all rounds on target.

SeaFireLIV
02-16-2007, 01:14 AM
I wasn`t going to bother, but it`s time for my own rant in defence of `AI` and reason.

This `idiotic AI` claims is not `idiotic AI` at all, but just how AI Routine is PROGRAMMED.

I think you guys forget that AI is not actually AI. There`s no such thing (outside of a military science research facility if even that) as artificial Intelligence. It`s PROGRAMMED ROUTINES.

This is why you will eventually recognise recurring tactics from the aircraft and other `AI` entities. WE see and we remember and we learn and this is why `AI` in IL2 seems so rubbish. AI can only follow a set routine, set PATTERNS. Someone else even said that Bobwov `AI` is still rubbish because he can still see set `routines` that the AI is pulling. AI can`t `see`, `learn` or remember a zillion moves to keep you off track.

And that`s the whole point. What do you expect? There`s only SO much it can hold in its hard drive or CPU. A simple CPU or dual core or quad core to take on the most complex organism in the universe? The brain? With its ability to reason, remember, figure everything without hardly realising it? Even to the point of berating a mechanical device as not being as smart or realistic as itself??

Perhaps in the year 2050 when the fighter pilot true `AI` hands your butt to you on a plate, lands next to you after you`ve bailed and hands you a detailed description of how it beat you using Human real-world WWII tactics leaving you no room for excuses and laughs in your face before taking off into the sky, then you may have your `AI`.


And you`ll probably switch the computer off in disgust and whine that AI is too smart!

Charos
02-16-2007, 01:52 AM
If the AI has worked out how to hack the game engine so that its plane engine doesnt overheat and it has 360 Deg view - I would say there really
damn crafty little buggers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

PikeBishop
02-16-2007, 05:32 AM
Dear All,
Tell me, did the initiator of this post carry out tests as a 1-on-1 scenario, because I must admit that I don't really see a problem with the AI "cheating".
Consider a situation where the enemy AI is attacking one of your AI friends.......so you come up behind him and take him out as he is trying to take your friend out. As I see it no amount of "pulling extra 'g'" or "zooming up extra high" is going to give him the chance to get away, unless he see's you and breaks away well in advance.....then it does not matter anyway and you position yourself for another attack....WITH LOADS OF PATIENCE! If you have TIR then you can still keep your eye on him even if at that time he seems to be getting away from you. If he gets away and gets round behind you I find that even on ACE you can still get him to overshoot with a good scissors move. It will be great if the AI in BoB can be notched up even more as I find the AI in IL-2 quite challenging even with the odd upside down moves they sometimes make........no real complaints really and it's great fun too.
Best regards,
SLP

p-11.cAce
02-16-2007, 06:02 AM
I wasn`t going to bother, but it`s time for my own rant in defence of `AI` and reason.

This `idiotic AI` claims is not `idiotic AI` at all, but just how AI Routine is PROGRAMMED.

I think you guys forget that AI is not actually AI. There`s no such thing (outside of a military science research facility if even that) as artificial Intelligence. It`s PROGRAMMED ROUTINES.

This is why you will eventually recognise recurring tactics from the aircraft and other `AI` entities. WE see and we remember and we learn and this is why `AI` in IL2 seems so rubbish. AI can only follow a set routine, set PATTERNS. Someone else even said that Bobwov `AI` is still rubbish because he can still see set `routines` that the AI is pulling. AI can`t `see`, `learn` or remember a zillion moves to keep you off track.

And that`s the whole point. What do you expect? There`s only SO much it can hold in its hard drive or CPU. A simple CPU or dual core or quad core to take on the most complex organism in the universe? The brain? With its ability to reason, remember, figure everything without hardly realising it? Even to the point of berating a mechanical device as not being as smart or realistic as itself??

Perhaps in the year 2050 when the fighter pilot true `AI` hands your butt to you on a plate, lands next to you after you`ve bailed and hands you a detailed description of how it beat you using Human real-world WWII tactics leaving you no room for excuses and laughs in your face before taking off into the sky, then you may have your `AI`.


And you`ll probably switch the computer off in disgust and whine that AI is too smart!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

rnzoli
02-16-2007, 07:28 AM
By the way, this thread sucks without tracks. I have been flying FW190 A5 against I-16s, or F4Fs against Zeros, and while I notice that their flight envelope is noticeably larger than that of human players, I never saw outright cheating like no gravity climbs, or exceeding terminal speeds.

A lot depends on AI skills as well - I think rookies and average pilots are okay, veterans get difficulty to catch and hit, aces shoot with laser-guided bullets.

Another factor is AI co-operation in multi-party engagements, e.g, you alone against 4xAI, you in a fast ride, AI in slow ride. I was amazed to see that they will sense that you got a faster plane, so one pair will remain on your level, while the other pair goes away and climbs in the vinicity - then they come back and catch you with their speed advantage, while you work on the lower pair. I don't think this behaviour is cheating, and losing against 4 veteran or ace AI pilots is kind of historically correct http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

stalkervision
02-16-2007, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by sukebeboy:
I don't see how anyone can defend the AI in IL2. It's laughably bad and the AI is NOT flying the plane to its full potential. Instead it flies in a completely predictable pattern. A few head on passes followed by corkscrewing barrel rolls until it's outnumbered and then a slow right hand climb to the stratosphere EVERY SINGLE TIME. Oh what fun! Crank acceleration to 8X and climb for 20 minutes, shoot down plane, land, repeat.

It's a farce. To those that claim that it's impossible to have AI without a $7,000 computer. That's a false argument. Look at BOB II. The AI, while nowhere near perfect, is far superior to IL2.

Bob2's ai ia absolutely superior to il-2 I have to agree. Why can't il-2 have that? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

btw BoB 2 patch 2.5 makes it even better by far..

For those who don't use Bob 2 as a coaster because their system is so screwed up.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WWSensei
02-16-2007, 08:33 AM
I also prefer to see tracks when people complain about why a fight is lost. For my own squad I know some are surprised by the number of mistakes and opportunities they missed during the review.

For example, in QMB, if you fly straight toward the enemy for a head-on, or nearly head-on merge you start out lowering your chances at victory by 50%---yet in 90% or more of the tracks I review for people that exactly the first thing they do.

Tactics and pilot actions have far more to do with the outcome of a fight than the FM or the AI.

SeaFireLIV
02-16-2007, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by WWSensei:
I also prefer to see tracks when people complain about why a fight is lost. For my own squad I know some are surprised by the number of mistakes and opportunities they missed during the review.

For example, in QMB, if you fly straight toward the enemy for a head-on, or nearly head-on merge you start out lowering your chances at victory by 50%---yet in 90% or more of the tracks I review for people that exactly the first thing they do.

Tactics and pilot actions have far more to do with the outcome of a fight than the FM or the AI.

Very true, it was another point I was considering mentioning also. I think many AI complaints are more `I got beat by AI, it can`t be- it cheats!` frustration, rather than any real AI study and checking tracks/observation and checking THEIR own mistakes. Of course, they could not possibly be at fault since they can fly every plane perfectly!

The AI can`t answer back with a counter point to reveal the truth of the sortie. No tracks provided. The AI becomes a convenient whipping board.

I`m not saying there aren`t faults with AI, but I suspect that this thread starter should be more vexed about his own flying ability in different planes than the AI.

zebulon64
02-16-2007, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I wasn`t going to bother, but it`s time for my own rant in defence of `AI` and reason.

This `idiotic AI` claims is not `idiotic AI` at all, but just how AI Routine is PROGRAMMED.

I think you guys forget that AI is not actually AI. There`s no such thing (outside of a military science research facility if even that) as artificial Intelligence. It`s PROGRAMMED ROUTINES.

This is why you will eventually recognise recurring tactics from the aircraft and other `AI` entities. WE see and we remember and we learn and this is why `AI` in IL2 seems so rubbish. AI can only follow a set routine, set PATTERNS. Someone else even said that Bobwov `AI` is still rubbish because he can still see set `routines` that the AI is pulling. AI can`t `see`, `learn` or remember a zillion moves to keep you off track.

And that`s the whole point. What do you expect? There`s only SO much it can hold in its hard drive or CPU. A simple CPU or dual core or quad core to take on the most complex organism in the universe? The brain? With its ability to reason, remember, figure everything without hardly realising it? Even to the point of berating a mechanical device as not being as smart or realistic as itself??

Perhaps in the year 2050 when the fighter pilot true `AI` hands your butt to you on a plate, lands next to you after you`ve bailed and hands you a detailed description of how it beat you using Human real-world WWII tactics leaving you no room for excuses and laughs in your face before taking off into the sky, then you may have your `AI`.


And you`ll probably switch the computer off in disgust and whine that AI is too smart!


Its NOT about losing against a AI - its about the AI been able to fly a plane in such a way that no human player can fly.

Try it yourself with the example I gave. Try turn tight in a YAK 9 at 480-500km/h

..and let the AI do the same - I gues you will wonder how he did it...

Fine with me that it is a routine - but it doesn't need to have a super computer to programm in a way that a AI sticks to capabilities that a human has. Fine with me that there are limitations... - but some are soooo unreal and in my oppinion just a progrmammers choice. What could be so hard to tell a programm in a routine that it can't turn as tight at 500Km/h while the human input does not allow you to do the same tight turn?? That's just one condition to add to a routine..... etc... etc..

stalkervision
02-16-2007, 09:05 AM
If this can't be fixed I propose we at least be able to have a patch that allows us to do similiar things to level the playing field. Call it the UFO patch 1.0 With it we will be able to magically increase our climb rates 20,000 ft a second and turn at 50 g's and 400 mph.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

rnzoli
02-16-2007, 09:40 AM
IL-2 1946 includes all those options and can be selected in the difficulty settings. You can turn off overheating to fly like a spaceship and also turn off blackout/redout effects. Moreover, you can turn off cockpit to see everywhere and enable padlock onto enemy to simulate 6th sense (or 7th).

horseback
02-16-2007, 10:09 AM
I can live with the 'magic' qualities of the AI aircraft (well, most of the time), but it does irk me that the Rookies fly awfully well for guys who were often (in the early war) barely trained, and shouldn't be capable of that kind of energy management.

I have to fly a given patch version's single aircraft type for several hours (over the course of weeks) to begin to approach this skill level, and I still haven't mastered that hiding-behind-the-Player's-canopy-framing-while-doing-slow-rolls trick after almost five years, and don't get me started about the ai gunners...

cheers

horseback

p-11.cAce
02-16-2007, 10:13 AM
I don't know about the rest of you but the BoBIIfanbois with 5 total posts in which they tell us why IL2 is inferior to BoB are starting to drive me a bit nuts http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

ICDP
02-16-2007, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
I don't know about the rest of you but the BoBIIfanbois with 5 total posts in which they tell us why IL2 is inferior to BoB are starting to drive me a bit nuts http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

I don't know about the rest of you but the IL2 defenders who insist that IL2 couldn't possibly be **** at anything are starting to drive me nuts. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Seriously, the reason people post that BoBII AI is better than IL2 AI is because it is true. The AI in IL2 sucks and the AI in BoBII doesn't, or have you tried to level bomb recently in IL2?. The excuse that decent AI isn't possible with todays hardware is complete rubbish. Try to understand that IL2 is not the best at everything.

fighter_966
02-16-2007, 10:29 AM
In earlier thread I was ranting How my ai squadron commander got his position to lead squadron in nil experience in front ( By looking his stats)Well I shot him down in one mission: I was chaseing one bogey with my Kaczmarek when this so called Squadron leader took his whole Squadron and tried stupid 90degrees angleshots... Resulting in one moment that his plane was between me an my target ...and Boom !!I also got the bogey Btw.
My squad leader surname was Vozz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif so be warned http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
he cant fly or lead squadron http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

-HH-Quazi
02-16-2007, 11:08 AM
I've seen old timers post here with only a handful of posts even though they had been a member of the forums for well over two years. So be careful of bringing post counts into anything, or labeling those that would rather read than post anything less than what they are.

My take is this. Yes, the AI sucs a biggun. So what? Fly online. HEHE Just cutting up. I know. You guys are right. I do wish they could be programmed to fly more like a human pilot. And their ac be subject to the very same forces as ours. But it is not this way. Does it take away from the sim? Yes it does. But does it make it any less of a sim than it was last week. No it doesn't. We have what we have. The finest WWII combat flight sim ever created.

WWSensei
02-16-2007, 11:33 AM
Just to clarify. I'm not saying the AI doesn't have problems. That's just it, I find the AI so predictable and bad at fighting that fighting them is nearly laughable. If the weak AI, cheating or not, is consistently beating you the fault is entirely in how you are fighting because the AI, even on ACE level is pretty easy to defeat.

As for BOBII AI, I found it different but eventually just as routine. But then again BoBII crashed to desktop on me so much I may not have gotten to experience the full AI.

p-11.cAce
02-16-2007, 12:35 PM
As for BOBII AI, I found it different but eventually just as routine. But then again BoBII crashed to desktop on me so much I may not have gotten to experience the full AI.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif My point is Shockwave has forums too (if you can manage to get registered) - but if Ubi wants to pay to have other products promoted on its forums who am I to say otherwise? I'm well aware post counts are ultimatly meaningless - I lost my original forum account after too long an absence in 2003-2005 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif