PDA

View Full Version : I come in PEACE!! *holds out IL2 sim fan badge*



aeyroch
02-17-2007, 04:17 PM
OK... here's my question. I have been flying in IL2 for a long time and have always regarded the sim as the best WWII sim with respect to FM to date.

Recently my friend had me install and tryout WWII Online. Trust me I knwo how many of you hate the FM in this game but hear me out.

Right away I felt like I was flying an oversensitive and poorly modeled sim. SO I did some test one specific test to compare IL2 to WWII Online. I took a SpitV at an entry speed of 200MPH IAS and banked hard left 360 degrees and recorded my times.

in WWII i could finish my turn in about 11 seconds avg. (seemingly unrealistic) in IL2 I completed my turn in around 17 seconds (seemingly more realistic).

After gathering my data I did the dumb thing and posted my arguement that WWII's FM is unrealistic on THEIR forums. I got met with immature comments by many including one of the "PRODUCERS" of the game. I expected this, God forbid I damage the integrity of such a complicated game which uses the most technologically advanced algarithms to track ballistics in game... but then someone posted a turn chart for the Spit. (very ambiguous chart I'll admit but a chart nontheless)
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i66/Aeyroch/spit109turn.gif
looking at the chart it says the spit (version unknown) can turn at 12K ft at 200MPH in about 15seconds...

Up I went in WWII Online again to retest at the chartered alt. and was still able to turn at around 11-13 seconds. Still a bit faster than this chart but is this chart even correct? I have not tested 12K in IL2 but at 1000m I was only able to turn around in 17 seconds. That time should increase with alt in IL2 as in RL so I can only think that at 12K it would take close to 20 seconds to turn... Nearly double WWIIO and longer than the chart depicts...

Any thoughts guys?

Sorry for the pic size.. it's more legible if you save it and open it (thank photobucket for small size)

Also I'd like to know why so many do not like WWII's FMing

MEGILE
02-17-2007, 04:37 PM
Can you link to the WW2OL forum thread? I've never ventured onto those forums, but I wouldn't mind dishing out some, you is 100% wrong on those guys.

Airmail109
02-17-2007, 04:47 PM
Lets Invade!!!!!!!!!

http://forums.battlegroundeurope.com/index.php

Enthor1
02-17-2007, 04:51 PM
My thoughts: Like we do not have enough charts around here vis a vis IL2, now we get them from other games??

or: Why bring your other game issues here, why not hash it out over there?

or: Where is your chart proving so many do not like WWII's FMing and how did you reach that conclusion?

VW-IceFire
02-17-2007, 04:51 PM
That chart...although it doesn't list the information...might be about the 109E and Spitfire Mark I or Mark II. I'll have to see what I have for turn times on the Mark V. Generally the numbers for the V, IX, and XIV are in the 19 through 21 seconds range if memory serves. Need charts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

aeyroch
02-17-2007, 04:52 PM
My name on there is Bliv...
You'll have to register to even access the thread I think.

http://forums.battlegroundeurope.com/showthread.php?t=151330

aeyroch
02-17-2007, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Enthor1:
My thoughts: Like we do not have enough charts around here vis a vis IL2, now we get them from other games??

or: Why bring your other game issues here, why not hash it out over there?

or: Where is your chart proving so many do not like WWII's FMing and how did you reach that conclusion?

Thats my point I'm not sure WHICH game's issue it is that's why I'm bringing it up. Because like most that fly and post here for IL2 we want the best FMing possible. I dont need charts to claim that many on here do not like the FM in WWII Online. Simply reading some of the threads that have been brought up about that game on this site is enough to come to a reasonable conclusion that most people that have flown in both games prefer IL2's FM to WWIIO (including me).

Perhaps you dont mind posting your charts here so that I may see where IL2 fans are coming from on this discussion. They have a chart showing 200MPH 15 seconds at 12K for a SpitMKI. Funny enough there MKV flies the exact same as their MKI and turns at a faster rate than what even THEIR chart shows. Do you have one that states MKV turn rates? acording to your statements... you do. Please post

WB_Outlaw
02-17-2007, 05:38 PM
WW-II Online is really bad IMO. If you want an aerial MMOG go for Aces High. It's much better and can be very immersive although the last time I had an account there was basically no infantry capability.

--Outlaw.

carguy_
02-17-2007, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
Can you link to the WW2OL forum thread? I've never ventured onto those forums, but I wouldn't mind dishing out some, you is 100% wrong on those guys.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


I`m volunteering for the invasion. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

XyZspineZyX
02-17-2007, 06:09 PM
All that does is make us look like a pack of pompous asses

WTE_Mauler
02-17-2007, 06:17 PM
Well guys you should really compare apples to apples and seeing as though WW2Online has no other apples I reckon you shouldn't bother http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

And for those that will undoubtedly take the above the wrong way I'll elaborate a little.

WW2Online cannot by any stretch of the imagination do the same amount of computing for flight models as a dedicated flight sim. Even Aces high is down right bleak compared to WW2Oline with respect to content and the Genre!
WW2Online models a woppin load more then just flight models. The game is about 650MB installed so draw your own conclusions there. From this it achieves a pretty fun time and fairly realistic combat if played in that vain.

S!
WTE_Mauler.

MEGILE
02-17-2007, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by BBB462cid:
All that does is make us look like a pack of pompous asses

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

To elaborate.

I've played WW2OL. I liked it... I go back every year or so to see how it has developed.

However I've heard several comments that the dev team don't take too kindly to criticism on flight models.

I just want to see it first hand.

Unfortunatly however it appears they were expecting me. Registration has been disabled on the forums http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

aeyroch
02-17-2007, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Mauler:
Well guys you should really compare apples to apples and seeing as though WW2Online has no other apples I reckon you shouldn't bother http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

And for those that will undoubtedly take the above the wrong way I'll elaborate a little.

WW2Online cannot by any stretch of the imagination do the same amount of computing for flight models as a dedicated flight sim. Even Aces high is down right bleak compared to WW2Oline with respect to content and the Genre!
WW2Online models a woppin load more then just flight models. The game is about 650MB installed so draw your own conclusions there. From this it achieves a pretty fun time and fairly realistic combat if played in that vain.

S!
WTE_Mauler.

See heres the thing... I'm not making this a war between games here, so no one tkae this the wrong way. Everyone on their side of the fence claims their FM's ARE better than IL2, as everyone on our side says IL2 has better FMing. They have provided charts and statistics proving why there FM react the way they do (still in my opinion VERY fast) All I have ever seen here in IL2's defense is we are a full blown Flight Sim not an MMO so we have better and more realistic FMing...

The friend that introduced me to WWIIOnline is also a pilot and he is of the belief that their FMs are far more realistic and that CRS uses extremely complex calculations for ballistics... to the point that their copmuters can calcualte a bomb blast breaking into 247 shrapnel pieces and which direction each shrapnel piece flies and if a piece hits how deep into the armor fo the tank ti will go and what damage it will cause due to location... Liikewise they claim that they track single bullets and can calculate depending on angle of impact where the bullet will ricochet and whether or not it hits your plane's wing at a tangent causing an elongated tear in the wing (causing poorer flight stability than if the bullet impacts at a sharper angle ie.90 degrees)

All of this sounds way to complex for ANY game let along an MMO. Can anyone tell me if this is true?

FritzGryphon
02-17-2007, 06:40 PM
Liikewise they claim that they track single bullets and can calculate depending on angle of impact where the bullet will ricochet and whether or not it hits your plane's wing at a tangent causing an elongated tear in the wing (causing poorer flight stability than if the bullet impacts at a sharper angle ie.90 degrees)


I can believe that the system is that complex, after all, IL-2 works in similar ways.

But they completely botch the implimentation of this technology. I played WWII:OL for a few days, and was horrified at every turn by the damage modeling.

In all my flying as a fighter and wandering around as a flak gun, I scored 4 20mm cannon hits against aircraft. I got 4 Hawk75 kills with these 4 hits; just one hit per kill. Total BS.

Then there's tanks being gutted by machine guns, and infantry that proved invicible against all I could hit them with. In all, the game is a mess, whatever system they're using.

I met up with an enemy infantryman once, and we both started unloading at each other. I'm talking ranges from 10m to wrestling distance. We unloaded all our rifle ammo into (and I mean into) each other. Then we emptied our pistol ammo into each other. Then we started knifing each other. Then we just sorta danced around jumping gaily together, because we both realized how stupid this war was.

I don't know if they have miraculously fixed the game since I tried it, but I got the impression of everything in the war being modeled, yet nothing actually worked. Everything was uniformly bad, from weapon model to flight model to drive model, and even basic stability and horrendous lag.

The game basically consists of you wandering around in a foggy dreamworld (the draw distance is extremely short), dying randomly, and shooting at things that either don't take damage, or disappear into thin air.

aeyroch
02-17-2007, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Liikewise they claim that they track single bullets and can calculate depending on angle of impact where the bullet will ricochet and whether or not it hits your plane's wing at a tangent causing an elongated tear in the wing (causing poorer flight stability than if the bullet impacts at a sharper angle ie.90 degrees)


I can believe that the system is that complex, after all, IL-2 works in similar ways.

But they completely botch the implimentation of this technology. I played WWII:OL for a few days, and was horrified at every turn by the damage modeling.

In all my flying as a fighter and wandering around as a flak gun, I scored 4 20mm cannon hits against aircraft. I got 4 Hawk75 kills with these 4 hits; just one hit per kill. Total BS.

Then there's tanks being gutted by machine guns, and infantry that proved invicible against all I could hit them with. In all, the game is a mess, whatever system they're using.

I met up with an enemy infantryman once, and we both started unloading at each other. I'm talking ranges from 10m to wrestling distance. We unloaded all our rifle ammo into (and I mean into) each other. Then we emptied our pistol ammo into each other. Then we started knifing each other. Then we just sorta danced around jumping gaily together, because we both realized how stupid this war was. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, I never experienced anything that outrageous when I dablle din the ground warfare... was that an early build of the game?

FritzGryphon
02-17-2007, 06:49 PM
I'm not sure. There was Bf-110, 109, Spits and Hawks. Halifax.

SeaFireLIV
02-17-2007, 06:52 PM
Got chart?

oh yes, you have.

Seriously though, I also think this makes us look needlessly pompous. What are we doing here? Running over to say `Our sim is historically more accurate than yours by a few seconds`?

Really, get a life, m8.

FritzGryphon
02-17-2007, 06:54 PM
If it does, it does. I would just like those hours back.

And to even compare it to actual infantry/tank/aircraft sims is not a fair one at all.

Not at all to say that it's a terrible game or they're not trying, but the sheer amount of content requires such large compromises to quality and accuracy. I mean, a 2KM draw distance on a flight sim? I can't even see the ground most of the time. Icons default to on, even for aircraft. You see what I mean.

We all have a responsibility to warn people of bad experience, lest they waste their own time, or worse, money.

aeyroch
02-17-2007, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Got chart?

oh yes, you have.

Seriously though, I also think this makes us look needlessly pompous. What are we doing here? Running over to say `Our sim is historically more accurate than yours by a few seconds`?

Really, get a life, m8.
First off, I'll assume you are talking to me. If you read my initial post on their forums you'd see there was no pompous tone to it. anyone that has read and thinks so needs to grow up and realize some flight sim fans (ie. ME) like to have intelligent and respectful conversations about why "you" think "your" flight sim is better than the others. "you" and "your" are meant generically.

That being said, please do not tell me to get a life.

Von_Rat
02-18-2007, 01:39 AM
hmmm,,,, i don't think you can even read any of the actual ww2ol game discussion forums unless you have a paid up account.

as for the fm, i see nobodys mentioned that ww2ol planes all have a ridicolously low stall speed.

all that aside i must say as a currently active ww2ol player i find the ground game very good. its the best ww2 tank sim ive found so far. infrantry play isnt up to red orchestra standards, but you can still have alot of fun playing infrantry.

the longest campaign ever fought in the games history is just now ending, it lasted 100 real life days. allies fought their way to german border, but then the tiger was introduced in the campaign, and the long push to the channel began. i had a blast.

its a very hard game for newcomers. if you don't have someone to show you around, you'll be lucky to even find a battle. and when you do you'll die alot. after awhile though you;ll be the one doing the killing.

weird things can happen in the game, but i never had the issues that some here are describing, and ive been playing for years.

aeyroch
02-18-2007, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
hmmm,,,, i don't think you can even read any of the actual ww2ol game discussion forums unless you have a paid up account.

as for the fm, i see nobodys mentioned that ww2ol planes all have a ridicolously low stall speed.

all that aside i must say as a currently active ww2ol player i find the ground game very good. its the best ww2 tank sim ive found so far. infrantry play isnt up to red orchestra standards, but you can still have alot of fun playing infrantry.

the longest campaign ever fought in the games history is just now ending, it lasted 100 real life days. allies fought their way to german border, but then the tiger was introduced in the campaign, and the long push to the channel began. i had a blast.

its a very hard game for newcomers. if you don't have someone to show you around, you'll be lucky to even find a battle. and when you do you'll die alot. after awhile though you;ll be the one doing the killing.

weird things can happen in the game, but i never had the issues that some here are describing, and ive been playing for years.
So Von Rat as a dedicated WWIIO player and I'm guessing you fly IL2 as well, I'm sure you've noticed the VAST difference in FMing between games. I understand WWII isnt just about the FM and there is a MUCH bigger picture, but based on WWII devs claiming they use so many different equations to model flight, ballistics, and physics in game which game do you believe does the better job?

Feel free to PM me if you'd rather not voice your opinion out loud lol. I love what WWIIO has and is trying to achieve but i'm finding it hard to enjoy myself cause in the back of my head I'm thinking (this just isn't realistic)

MEGILE
02-18-2007, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
hmmm,,,, i don't think you can even read any of the actual ww2ol game discussion forums unless you have a paid up account.

as for the fm, i see nobodys mentioned that ww2ol planes all have a ridicolously low stall speed.

all that aside i must say as a currently active ww2ol player i find the ground game very good. its the best ww2 tank sim ive found so far. infrantry play isnt up to red orchestra standards, but you can still have alot of fun playing infrantry.

the longest campaign ever fought in the games history is just now ending, it lasted 100 real life days. allies fought their way to german border, but then the tiger was introduced in the campaign, and the long push to the channel began. i had a blast.

its a very hard game for newcomers. if you don't have someone to show you around, you'll be lucky to even find a battle. and when you do you'll die alot. after awhile though you;ll be the one doing the killing.

weird things can happen in the game, but i never had the issues that some here are describing, and ive been playing for years.

They have a tiger now? hehe dam.. what rank in the WM do you have to be?
I may have to check that out

The best thing about the infantry game is probably a coordinated para drop on a small town. Cool as hell

sukebeboy
02-18-2007, 08:32 AM
If you are going to raid the WWII Online forums, here are a few articles you might want to have a gander at before preparing to cap their CPs.

http://www.simhq.com/_air9/air_282a.html

http://pcgames.gwn.com/articles/article.php/id/860/p/1/...e_to_Sim-Gaming.html (http://pcgames.gwn.com/articles/article.php/id/860/p/1/title/How_to_Make_the_Transition_from_Arcade_to_Sim-Gaming.html)

Breeze147
02-18-2007, 08:37 AM
Cool!! Graphs!! One of Dart's Commandments for starting an FM Flame War!!

Von_Rat
02-18-2007, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by aeyroch:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
hmmm,,,, i don't think you can even read any of the actual ww2ol game discussion forums unless you have a paid up account.

as for the fm, i see nobodys mentioned that ww2ol planes all have a ridicolously low stall speed.

all that aside i must say as a currently active ww2ol player i find the ground game very good. its the best ww2 tank sim ive found so far. infrantry play isnt up to red orchestra standards, but you can still have alot of fun playing infrantry.

the longest campaign ever fought in the games history is just now ending, it lasted 100 real life days. allies fought their way to german border, but then the tiger was introduced in the campaign, and the long push to the channel began. i had a blast.

its a very hard game for newcomers. if you don't have someone to show you around, you'll be lucky to even find a battle. and when you do you'll die alot. after awhile though you;ll be the one doing the killing.

weird things can happen in the game, but i never had the issues that some here are describing, and ive been playing for years.
So Von Rat as a dedicated WWIIO player and I'm guessing you fly IL2 as well, I'm sure you've noticed the VAST difference in FMing between games. I understand WWII isnt just about the FM and there is a MUCH bigger picture, but based on WWII devs claiming they use so many different equations to model flight, ballistics, and physics in game which game do you believe does the better job?

Feel free to PM me if you'd rather not voice your opinion out loud lol. I love what WWIIO has and is trying to achieve but i'm finding it hard to enjoy myself cause in the back of my head I'm thinking (this just isn't realistic) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

of course il2 fm is much better.

i don't care how many equations they use in fm, if the end product is wrong,,its wrong. i already used the example of stall speeds being waaay off.

even the devs admit they cant do as good a job as il2, because theyre not a dedicated flight sim.

as a ground game its pretty good, thats what i usually play. i only fly in the air to support the ground guys in desparate situations, because quite frankly i have a hard time tolerating their wacky fms.

Von_Rat
02-18-2007, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
hmmm,,,, i don't think you can even read any of the actual ww2ol game discussion forums unless you have a paid up account.

as for the fm, i see nobodys mentioned that ww2ol planes all have a ridicolously low stall speed.

all that aside i must say as a currently active ww2ol player i find the ground game very good. its the best ww2 tank sim ive found so far. infrantry play isnt up to red orchestra standards, but you can still have alot of fun playing infrantry.

the longest campaign ever fought in the games history is just now ending, it lasted 100 real life days. allies fought their way to german border, but then the tiger was introduced in the campaign, and the long push to the channel began. i had a blast.

its a very hard game for newcomers. if you don't have someone to show you around, you'll be lucky to even find a battle. and when you do you'll die alot. after awhile though you;ll be the one doing the killing.

weird things can happen in the game, but i never had the issues that some here are describing, and ive been playing for years.

They have a tiger now? hehe dam.. what rank in the WM do you have to be?
I may have to check that out

The best thing about the infantry game is probably a coordinated para drop on a small town. Cool as hell </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i think you have to be a lt. but im not sure because the have restructured the ranks.

you kinda missed the boat on tiger. i beleive the map will be reset today, so its back to 1940 equipment. it'll be a couple weeks or so before tigers back in. of course this would give you a chance to rank up so that when it does come in you can use one.

warning theres only 3 tigers per ab, so if you want one you have to be lucky or drive one from a rear town. yesterday i drove one from a rather far rear town, and got picked off from behind as soon as a got there,,,doh.

sukebeboy
02-18-2007, 05:59 PM
I think WWII Online does some things better in the air game than IL2. I think level bombing is more of a challenge in WWIIOL. The ability to have individual players crew each station is a lot of fun too.

CAF96th_Sillyak
02-18-2007, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by BBB462cid:
All that does is make us look like a pack of pompous asses

and your point?

aeyroch
02-18-2007, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by sukebeboy:
I think WWII Online does some things better in the air game than IL2. I think level bombing is more of a challenge in WWIIOL. The ability to have individual players crew each station is a lot of fun too.

Still blows my mind why this has never been implemented in IL2 (i.e. player1=pilot player2=bombadier) hopefully SoW:BoB will have this incorporated...

PFflyer
02-19-2007, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by aeyroch:

in WWII i could finish my turn in about 11 seconds avg. (seemingly unrealistic) in IL2 I completed my turn in around 17 seconds (seemingly more realistic).



Sure here are my thoughts:

Why do you think the results that YOU get flying these tests mean anything at all? You can take 12 different "gamers" like yourself, have them fly the same test you did, and you will get 12 different results. Some of them will be slower than you, so faster, and some with more experience flying WWII online will reverse your results.

So your whole thread really means nothing, and nothing meaningful will come out of it. Like most threads on this forum talking about the characteristics about the aircraft, it is a bunch of close-minded subjective garbage.

rnzoli
02-19-2007, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by aeyroch:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sukebeboy:
I think WWII Online does some things better in the air game than IL2. I think level bombing is more of a challenge in WWIIOL. The ability to have individual players crew each station is a lot of fun too.

Still blows my mind why this has never been implemented in IL2 (i.e. player1=pilot player2=bombadier) hopefully SoW:BoB will have this incorporated... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have some excellent news for you. Try the co-operative game mode of IL-2 and see that several people can occupy various seats in a bomber at the same time. That seems to be what you want.

BGs_Ricky
02-19-2007, 09:24 AM
Yes playing as a crew in a multi-station bomber is possible in coops, but still only the pilot can take the bombardier seat...

rnzoli
02-19-2007, 12:40 PM
That's interesting, thanks, didn't know that.

Xiolablu3
02-19-2007, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by PFflyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aeyroch:

in WWII i could finish my turn in about 11 seconds avg. (seemingly unrealistic) in IL2 I completed my turn in around 17 seconds (seemingly more realistic).



Sure here are my thoughts:

Why do you think the results that YOU get flying these tests mean anything at all? You can take 12 different "gamers" like yourself, have them fly the same test you did, and you will get 12 different results. Some of them will be slower than you, so faster, and some with more experience flying WWII online will reverse your results.

So your whole thread really means nothing, and nothing meaningful will come out of it. Like most threads on this forum talking about the characteristics about the aircraft, it is a bunch of close-minded subjective garbage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

^ With the prime garbage coming form this guy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Really, if you feel like you do, why not just not post here? In fact not even visit here? After all, we only post useless cr*p. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

aeyroch
02-19-2007, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
That's interesting, thanks, didn't know that.

Yeah sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I know in coop other players can occupy gunner positions but bombardier was what I was refering to.

aeyroch
02-19-2007, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PFflyer:
So your whole thread really means nothing, and nothing meaningful will come out of it. Like most threads on this forum talking about the characteristics about the aircraft, it is a bunch of close-minded subjective garbage.

^ With the prime garbage coming form this guy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Really, if you feel like you do, why not just not post here? In fact not even visit here? After all, we only post useless cr*p. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL thanks for the heads up!

foxfire1941
02-20-2007, 02:58 PM
WWIIOL,

I've been there. They got my monthly dues for about 6 months, then IL-2 came out. Never looked back, & never going back. I hated the planes FM and the lousy graphics.