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tigertalon
05-04-2007, 05:44 PM
I decided to take a closer look at this family of fighters (which I pretty much ignored up to now - save the Yak-9U). Was trying them online for last couple of weeks with various sucsess - the middle war versions that is, ones before Yak3/9U). I seemed to do best in a Yak9 or Yak1b (versus opponents like G2/G6/A4). Yak1b also has a slight advantage because of rocket option, usefull versus bombers.

ElAurens
05-04-2007, 09:25 PM
The 9D is a very good all-rounder. I suspect it may be the best modeled Russian aircraft.

BillyTheKid_22
05-04-2007, 10:09 PM
Yak -9D is very GOOD!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PBNA-Boosher
05-04-2007, 10:48 PM
I fly Yaks quite a lot. They're beautiful planes with lovely performance. If I can offer any advice it's "watch that ball." That should be true for any aircraft, but if you keep the ball in the center you can out-turn nearly anything in the sky. Occasionally I would try to slip a little bit, but push it too hard and you'll produce disastrous results. That rudder, though, can save your life in a Yak. Use it, overuse it in combat turns.

But the Yak isn't only a turning plane. Its speed is decent for the conflict. Maneuvering fights don't do much for you above 400 kph. If you go above that, you should attempt to limit yourself so you can keep the fight on your terms. Force the 109 to be slow. and turn. If you see him pulling out those slats you know you've got him, then again, watch out for the G-2 and F-4, as they're near in turn performance to you. Against them be smart, watch the skies and look for your performance. Make sure you keep the fight on your terms.

My personal favorite Yak is the 1b. I love its turn performance, I love the speed, the feel of it. I love the early-warishness about it. I love the sense of calm I get from it, even in combat. It's helped me a lot through this series. I often don't even go for combat in it, sometimes I set the time to 7 PM and take low level flights on in the Kuban.

Do not exceed 670 kph if you can help it. The Yaks don't like high speed, especially in dives. Barrel roll when diving to slow yourself down if necessary. Use maneuvering to your advantage.

NEVER fly the Yak-9B. It's unbalanced and was almost never used escept in trials. You're better of fusing the IL2. The Yak is not a ground attack aircraft, don't try to make it one. When flying against bombers, especially in a Yak-1, NEVER take the rockets. If you get jumped you're less maneuverable with those rocket rails. Use the bombs if necessary.

The Yak-9 itself is of better quality construction than the Yak-1, and to be perfectly honest - The Yak-9D was, historically, a DOG. Pilots usually relegated it to newer pilots. the added fuel tanks degraded performance and made it, literally, an unlit torch just begging to be set aflame.

Again with that NS-37, I would be careful. Take the ShVAK. It's more than effective against bombers and you have more ammo for it. Pretty generally, the 37mm is overkill. 20mm's to the wing root on most fighters and bombers would do it.

Enjoy your Yak, it's a beutiful airplane.

EDIT: I forgot about the Yak-7B PF, that plane's a BEAST!!! It's armament is also beastly. The Yak-7's were originally trainer planes. Used properly they school German aircraft quite well. They are a bit heavier but can pull the same maneuvers. I don't know, though. I'm sticking with my Yak-1b!

DuxCorvan
05-05-2007, 04:45 AM
As a yak expert, I always take my yaks to the best grassy plates.
http://www.centcols.org/voyages/tibet_by_bike/shepherd.jpg
http://users.mcsi.net/carlene/YAKS.jpg

tigertalon
05-05-2007, 05:02 AM
Ty Boosher, good advices!

Yeah, I noted myself that keeping her rudder trimmed is imperative during maneouvering. That's for every plane, even more so in Yaks. Like walking on a rope, but once you master it you can turn really really tight.

Whenever I fly heavy cannon equpped plane (M/K/T) I never use cannon and machinegun at the same time. Even on ShVAK equipped Yaks I I rarely squeeze both triggers, only when it is impossible to miss and even then not always as a single weapon is more than enough to put the enemy out of action most of the times. Actually I even prefer the USB over ShVAK and would trade nose mounted ShVAK with 120 rpg for USB with 200 rpg gladly.

Yeah, I stay away from D version as well, it's easier to set its wings aflame due to larger fueltanks and it seems less maneouverable than 1B/9, yet still it's performance seems to be the best of all yaks in question here (with comparable fuel load that is of course - Yak-9 with 75% should be compared with Yak-9D with 50%).

Compared to La series, Yaks have significantly better dive characteristics (still inferior to german counterparts) which enable it to stay with a diving 109/190 for long enough to get a firing solution with that sniper UBS. Yaks also have better alt performance than comparable La series.

Yak-7B_PF seems to be lagging behind either 1B or 9/9D considering performance, however it is the only yak in question that carries two UBS guns in the cowling plus a ShVAK through prop hub - best firepower of them all IMO.

Tested them for sealevel speed (note, that's the speed I manage to reach and maintain for extended periods of time - fiddling with prop pitch it's possible to temporarily -for a few seconds- increase speed for as much as 4 or 5 kph).

Crimea, noon, 100% fuel, default loadout.

Yak-7B_PF:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/TigerTalon/SeaLevelSpeed_Yak-7B_PF.jpg


Yak-1B:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/TigerTalon/SeaLevelSpeed_Yak-1B.jpg


Yak-9:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/TigerTalon/SeaLevelSpeed_Yak-9.jpg


Yak-9D:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/TigerTalon/SeaLevelSpeed_Yak-9D.jpg


Yak-9M:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/TigerTalon/SeaLevelSpeed_Yak-9M.jpg


Yak-9T:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/TigerTalon/SeaLevelSpeed_Yak-9T.jpg


Yak-9K:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/TigerTalon/SeaLevelSpeed_Yak-9K.jpg

(forgive me crappy graphics, it's all my old radeon is able to spit out)

PBNA-Boosher
05-05-2007, 10:13 AM
Your instinct about the guns is correct. The Yak's armament doesn't give you a lot of ammo. Most models just have 1 UBS and one ShVAK. They are all certainly enough to bring down anything, but you've got to be careful. I use my MG to line up shots in quick bursts. Once I'm in on the kill zone I use the cannon in quick shots as well. I never lay down a burst more than 1/4 to 1/2 a second unless absolutely necessary. I also only fire when my firing position is absolutely sure. The exception to this rule is bomber escort. It was common (and effective online) for Yak escorts to use some of their ammunition to fire barriers across the noses of attacking Luft aircraft.

That UBS is definitely one of the best MG's in game and I agree with you, I'd rather have two, but there are situations when the ShVAK comes in extremely handy. There was one time where I was scissoring with a particularly good 109 pilot. I was able to get MG shots on his plane but never anywhere that would have crippled it and I couldn't concentrate the damage in one spot. We were both low and slow. I saw his slats pop out in a turn, circled inside him and gave a blast with the ShVAK. He blew up in my face.

BTW - if you're ever up against the 109E-7/Z, watch out. It flames easily but blows quick.

BuzzU
05-05-2007, 11:59 AM
That 1b speed seems kind of fast.

JtD
05-05-2007, 12:10 PM
Late 1942: The Yak-9 and Yak-1b are very close overall, I prefer the 9 because it looks a bit better and has an armoured windshield. I think it can also go a tad faster in a dive. The 7bPF is also a contemporary of the 2 and probably the worst of all 3.

Mid 1943: The Yak-9D has acceptable performance, don't take much fuel since it carries a lot. If you don't, you get a very decent dogfighter below 4km that is just a little unstable (for my taste) and somewhat underarmed. Good plane.

Mid 1943: My choice is the Yak-9T, because of the cannon. With that thing, I finally have a Yak with enough firepower. It also seems to handle a bit nicer than the other models, but this might be placebo.

Mid 1944: The Yak-9M is a true 1944 design, up against at least G-6late, G-14, A-6 & A-8. It is not competitive in that environment. Basically I prefer a chute over a 9M if put against contemporaries.

The Yak-9K is pretty much like a 9T, only that it didn't see remotely as much service and also is a 1944 plane. Slightly worse performer. Still, it is the plane in which I scored 30 kills within a good minute. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ForkTailedDevil
05-05-2007, 12:10 PM
Thanks for the tips I have really fallen for the Yak-9 series. I think I even like them more than the La series planes.

VW-IceFire
05-05-2007, 12:44 PM
Between the Yak-1B and the Yak-9 I'll pick the Yak-9 as the Yak-1B's performance deteriorates more quickly with altitude. BuzzU said the Yak-1B seems a little fast and its a little hotrod under 500m but if you get above that the Yak-9 passes it and keeps going for quite a while.

My next choice is the Yak-9T with the impressive cannon and higher speed than the Yak-9D.

The Yak-9M is the best of the lot overall in the early 1944 range of Yak's. Its really just the most refined of all of the models and it offers you both 20mm and 37mm options.

PapaG39
05-05-2007, 01:46 PM
I like all of the Yaks, but I rarely fly them because of the gray sun screen in the gun sights. against the sky is's O.K., but against the ground I can't see the target. There seems to be no way to get that gray behind the sight to disappear (as in the
German/Japanese acft), and I know that even the Russians didn't fly at night with sun screen covering their gunsights. The Russian acft with the grayed gunsights has always been a bug-a-boo with me... I hate it!

TheGozr
05-05-2007, 02:42 PM
The Yak9M was just the yak9 later lines perfectioned . Yak9M was called yak9 for example.
It's very important to understand that only Speed doesn't make a plane good fighters the yak in RL accelerated very fast and this was a great tool for fights.
The Yak9 is a descent of the yak7 for sure but also it touk a lot from the yak1 late serie.
I can also say that many things in the yaks touk a lot from thechnology of the french Arsenals aircrafts and Hispano-Suiza engines.
Anyway Yaks are simple great aircrafts.
They were the best.

"Normandie-Niemen" server have a lots of them. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BillyTheKid_22
05-05-2007, 03:23 PM
www.airpages.ru/eng/index.html (http://www.airpages.ru/eng/index.html)


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DKoor
05-05-2007, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
is there any other way besides stopwatch estimation to check fuel? AFAIK no. Someone once said that Yak has fuel gauge on wings (of course nicely visible in REAL Yaks) - how true is that I don't know. Few types (3/9U) have fuel indicator, but most do not.
Perhaps Gozr may shed some light on this.
TT check PM.

mandrill7
05-05-2007, 03:33 PM
I'm currently writing some missions for the Yak-1B featuring the Battle of the Kuban in April-May 1943. The campaign will probably mix in missions typical of both the Frontal and Naval arms of the VVS, including ship and convoy escorts and escorting Bostons and Pe-2's on anti-shipping strikes, as well as inland escorts and intercepts.

Major fighter adversaries historically would be G-2's.

With any luck - and a little persistence on my part - campaign should be finished in about a month's time.

mandrill7
05-05-2007, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
Mid 1944: The Yak-9M is a true 1944 design, up against at least G-6late, G-14, A-6 & A-8. It is not competitive in that environment. Basically I prefer a chute over a 9M if put against contemporaries. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

G-14 only came on stream in fall 1944, at which time luckier Russian units were already flying the Yak-3 and La-7. Yak-3 can compete very nicely with A-8's and G-14's at low altitude.

Anyone have any opinions re flying the LaGG-3 Series 66 against early 1943 comptetition? The Series 66 was refined and lightened and seems to have similar performance statistics to the contemporary Yaks.

JtD
05-06-2007, 01:06 AM
The Yak-9M is absolutely contemporary with the Yak-3 and just a tad earlier than the 9u. It was being used until the very end of the war. "Luckier" Soviet units would get a 9M so they wouldn't need to fly 2 year old 1b models anymore.

So, what they were facing were mainly 109 G cleared for 1.42 ata boost which we don't have in game with performance pretty similar to the G-14 and 190 A-8 and F-8. Plus a few older models. And half a year later, when the 9M saw their most widespread use, it would go up against all the good late German designs, G-10, K-4, A-9, D-9, F-9.

The LaGG-3S66 is very close to the Yak's in performance and seems to handle a bit nicer. Overall it might be a tad better.

DKoor
05-06-2007, 01:33 AM
I found lack of dive capability with Yaks to be their weakest char.
In a blink of an eye your structure will crush, especially so if you are coming previously from flying the FW or other bnz dedicated plane.

Yak-9M Vs Yak-1B..... funny thing is that 1B has better performance from deck to 2k! Which is somewhat surprising.
2k - 5,5k 9M is superior (speed), after that again 1B is better.
But being superior from 0-2k makes 1B a better choice for IL-2 escort missions.
Of course Yak-3 excels much over both those types.....

Yak-9U being the best of the breed IMHO. It's better than any other Yak (speed wise) and not one comes close to its high alt (over 4k especially) performance.
Performance gap between the "U" and the rest is just huge.

D@m! Any Anton seeing Yak-9U in combat zone must run away like there's no tomorrow, because this thing climbs better, turns better, runs faster and has mean guns!
Dora can outrun the "U" but isn't wise to climb with one close on its tail. From 3k - 5k Dora is about 20km/h faster than "U" which doesn't guarantee a clear superiority.

tigertalon
05-06-2007, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
Yak-9U being the best of the breed IMHO. It's better than any other Yak (speed wise) and not one comes close to its high alt (over 4k especially) performance.
Performance gap between the "U" and the rest is just huge.

D@m! Any Anton seeing Yak-9U in combat zone must run away like there's no tomorrow, because this thing climbs better, turns better, runs faster and has mean guns!
Dora can outrun the "U" but isn't wise to climb with one close on its tail. From 3k - 5k Dora is about 20km/h faster than "U" which doesn't guarantee a clear superiority.

Yeah, I guess german pilots gave it a nicknames "Der russische Mustang" and "ein Monster" with a good reason. It also looks sexiest of all yaks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

mandrill7
05-06-2007, 07:34 AM
Yak and LaGG statistical tables:

http://wio.ru/tacftr/yak.htm

http://wio.ru/tacftr/lag.htm


I guess the explanation with the 9M is that the VVS was emphasizing numerical superiority. The LW was already heavily outnumbered by mid 44 on the Eastern Front. The Russians decided to keep producing a refined version of an obsolescent type in an effort to maximize numbers. Since the 9M has the same power plant and a similar airframe to a 1B, they have fairly similar performances. The 1B is a little lighter and has a smaller wing area IIRC.

The 7B-PF is slightly earlier than the 1B and 9 - late summer 1942, as opposed to winter 42-43. It's heavier in structure and because of the extra UBS in the nose and so slower. The 9 replaced a lot of the Yak-7's internal wood framework with aluminum and shed the extra HMG to improve speed and maneuvrability.

I wrote a Kurland campaign for the Yak-3 last fall. The Germans were flying A-8's and G-14's on the Ostfront at Xmas 1944. No Doras and possibly just a few G-10's on a trial basis. The Home Front and Westfront got the best model LW fighters and the Ostfront got the leftovers.

The only Doras which would ever fly against the VVS would be around Berlin in spring 45 when the 2 fronts had pretty much collapsed into one.

Rammjaeger
05-06-2007, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
D@m! Any Anton seeing Yak-9U in combat zone must run away like there's no tomorrow

Like this?

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/3491/problem5jw4.th.jpg (http://img250.imageshack.us/my.php?image=problem5jw4.jpg)
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/7314/problem6xx6.th.jpg (http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=problem6xx6.jpg)
http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/2273/trouble2ua0.th.jpg (http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trouble2ua0.jpg)

OK, these aren't Yak-9Us, but the difference is not that great IMO. I could manage to escape in all cases by utilising the Fw-190's superior roll rate. Yaks also expend ammo fast. A human player would have probably killed me though.

TheGozr
05-06-2007, 09:09 AM
lets jump start it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://www.gozr.net/iocl/viewforum.php?f=35

FPSOLKOR
05-06-2007, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by mandrill7:
The only Doras which would ever fly against the VVS would be around Berlin in spring 45 when the 2 fronts had pretty much collapsed into one.

Not true. In reality SU managed to capture the Marienburg aircraft repair and producing facility, what allowed them to whack the already present Doras quite quickly without replacement for Germans. But there was a period of around 2-3 month when long-nosed FW were quite common in battle reports. Still, I cannot tell how many of those actually were in action against VVS. And one more thing - RL VVS La and Yak fighter pilots NEVER said that Doras were any better then Anton. By the end of 1944 they were potent, but not invincible enemy...

DKoor
05-06-2007, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Rammjaeger:
OK, these aren't Yak-9Us, but the difference is not that great IMO. I could manage to escape in all cases by utilising the Fw-190's superior roll rate. Yaks also expend ammo fast. "U" is vastly superior than any Anton.
It's faster and nothing will save you (except enemy poor gunnery) because you can't outmaneuver it either.
Only A9 has some chance below 1500m - to outrun Yak-9U.
Ai fights vs player cannot be taken into consideration about plane performances because Ai severely cheats.

A human player would have probably killed me though. Yes.... he probably would if he's a good player. Against someone less experienced you could probably get away.

alert_1
05-06-2007, 12:42 PM
All those Yaks with Klimov VK105 (1240hp max) was much better then poor german messers and wulfs - be sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

FPSOLKOR
05-06-2007, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by alert_1:
All those Yaks with Klimov VK105 (1240hp max) was much better then poor german messers and wulfs - be sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
Under certain conditions I-15bis is way better then B-52... Measuring the planes capabilities by single variable is a way to your defeat.

joeap
05-06-2007, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by alert_1:
All those Yaks with Klimov VK105 (1240hp max) was much better then poor german messers and wulfs - be sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Cajun76
05-06-2007, 02:17 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/cyak2.jpg

mandrill7
05-06-2007, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by alert_1:
All those Yaks with Klimov VK105 (1240hp max) was much better then poor german messers and wulfs - be sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

The 9U had a Klimov VK107. Not a 105. A lot more HP.

tigertalon
05-07-2007, 04:39 AM
Originally posted by BillyTheKid_22:
www.airpages.ru/eng/index.html (http://www.airpages.ru/eng/index.html)


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ty for the link Billy! Interesting reading about soviet opinion on captured 190D-9.

Brain32
05-07-2007, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alert_1:
All those Yaks with Klimov VK105 (1240hp max) was much better then poor german messers and wulfs - be sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Try to get the context this statement was made in, in reflection to the post before DKoor's and then roll your eyes if you want but I think you didn't get it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WTG alert_1 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

EDIT: As for the topic I use Yak9 until I either get Yak3 or Yak9u, I know Yak9D is faster below 3000m and all that, but plain Yak9 just feels nicer to fly

Kurfurst__
05-07-2007, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by mandrill7:
I wrote a Kurland campaign for the Yak-3 last fall. The Germans were flying A-8's and G-14's on the Ostfront at Xmas 1944. No Doras and possibly just a few G-10's on a trial basis. The Home Front and Westfront got the best model LW fighters and the Ostfront got the leftovers.

This is not quite true, by the end of 1944, the 109 production was mainly G-10s and K-4s, the older types being gradually withdrawn from the production line. The G-10 in particular was certainly not a rarity, even the small Hungarian and Italian air forces got plenty of those planes late in 1944 just as they arrived. Not sure about Kurland, but you should look up www.ww2.dk , which has the exact type breakdown for all Luftwaffe figher (and bomber etc.) units, as well as their bases.. it may take a little work to work out which unit was where and had what, but all the info is there..

There's a document for Luftlotte 6 on the Eastern Front, there are a lot of G-10 units there, as well as D-9s.

JtD
05-07-2007, 02:01 PM
Kurland was almost entirely FW territory. Just a few 109 there. A-6, A-8, A-9, F-8, F-9. By end of 1944, mostly A-8 and F-8. 109's were about as rare as the Yak-3.

Klemm.co
05-07-2007, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillyTheKid_22:
www.airpages.ru/eng/index.html (http://www.airpages.ru/eng/index.html)


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ty for the link Billy! Interesting reading about soviet opinion on captured 190D-9. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Looks to me like that the russians had simply no idea how to fight properly in the D-9. Just look at the sentence "Initiating combat on a collision course. The Soviet fighter took a position for a rear-hemisphere attack after the third bank or the second combat turn."
That sentence really made me smile. Who in his right mind would be going into a true horizontal circling fight vs. a La anyway? That conclusion of the "total superiority of the domestic machine (La-5) because of its lower turning time" simply ridiculed the whole opinion of the Russians IMO.

faustnik
05-07-2007, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillyTheKid_22:
www.airpages.ru/eng/index.html (http://www.airpages.ru/eng/index.html)


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ty for the link Billy! Interesting reading about soviet opinion on captured 190D-9. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, thanks for that link!!!

It is really interesting to read the different opinions. This is an interesting look at the difficulties of intercepting the Fw190 Jabos:

German pilots employed engine reheat at low altitudes. It was determined here that the Focke-Wulf could deliver 582 km/h, i. e. neither the Yak-3 (the aircraft at the Air Forces Scientific Research Institute developed 567 km/h) nor the Yak-9U (575 km/h) could overtake them. Only the La-5 reached 612 km/h in augmented mode, but the speed margin was insufficient to reduce the range between the two aircraft to a distance permitting aimed fire.

Based on test results, the institute leadership issued recommendations: it is necessary to echelon the fighters in patrols at different altitudes. In this case, the mission of the pilots on the higher tiers would be to disrupt the bombing and to attack the enemy fighter escort, while the lower patrol aircraft, having the capability to overtake in a shallow dive, probably would be able to intercept the ground-attack aircraft themselves.



Interesting small note of the I-185 here too:

Only the experimental I-185 fighter could compete with the Bf 109G-2 in rate of climb

Sure seems like the I-185 should have entered production.

Daiichidoku
05-07-2007, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
Sure seems like the I-185 should have entered production.

couldnt perfect a comfortable throttle grip

FPSOLKOR
05-07-2007, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Klemm.co:

Looks to me like that the russians had simply no idea how to fight properly in the D-9. Just look at the sentence "Initiating combat on a collision course. The Soviet fighter took a position for a rear-hemisphere attack after the third bank or the second combat turn."
That sentence really made me smile. Who in his right mind would be going into a true horizontal circling fight vs. a La anyway? That conclusion of the "total superiority of the domestic machine (La-5) because of its lower turning time" simply ridiculed the whole opinion of the Russians IMO. This was not a trial to estimate the tactics validity, just the planes characteristics. But the main part in any combat plane is the brain of the pilot (how otherwise I-15bis pilots could kill Me-109F and G?).

TheGozr
05-07-2007, 04:04 PM
I have this motorcycle that can reach 200 MPH it's a 1200 cc because it's a monster of acceleration i will race it at the road course track. Than I will race the 600 cc race motorbikes that can reach 145 mph.. do you think i will win? If you can give a correct answer you probably will understand some facts about combats flights..

FPSOLKOR
05-07-2007, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
I have this motorcycle that can reach 200 MPH it's a 1200 cc because it's a monster of acceleration i will race it at the road course track. Than I will race the 600 cc race motorbikes that can reach 145 mph.. do you think i will win? If you can give a correct answer you probably will understand some facts about combats flights..
If you asked me, I will recomend reading this:

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pilots/kardopoltsev/kardopoltsev.htm


" Did you utilize mixed formations of La-7's and La-5? Wasn't it too difficult to have a wingman with lower-class plane?

No, no difference... I had La-7, Vasilii Troshin flew La-5... You see, we fought war, not raced. Speed is of course important, but smart head is an ultimate weapon.


This man made it through, so he knows what he says. Also you can read other interviews posted there... A reason to think.

TheGozr
05-07-2007, 04:39 PM
FPSOLKOR My answer to my post is : the 600 cc would win hands down.

FPSOLKOR
05-07-2007, 04:48 PM
No surprize, but the main point - war is not a race... It's a bit personal for me - since my point of view had severely shifted from idealistic (TV-News-Video version) to realistic after I saw war with my own eyes. Although not in aviation.

TheGozr
05-07-2007, 04:56 PM
Well same here the difference also is that I know the yak9's in RL ( and some others ).

Many have a very distorded or false believes about some planes. I don't argue anymore it make no point.

I just make my own

Btw many never flew in RL but something easy to understand is that imagine to do a Race cars simulator everyone basicly drive here now test a race car game and you will see how different from reality it is.. same with aviation.

FPSOLKOR
05-07-2007, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
Well same here the difference also is that I know the yak9's in RL ( and some others )..
Lucky SOB! I only sat once in I-15bis's cabin which used to be based at Rzhevka...

http://www.vzletim.ru/index.php?uid=std_get&uid_obj=fil...skiphtml_f=1&popup=1 (http://www.vzletim.ru/index.php?uid=std_get&uid_obj=file_48686894832835928814b4217caaf56b&skiphtml_f=1&popup=1)


Many have a very distorded or false believes about some planes. I don't argue anymore it make no point. .

I still try to preach... No success though. But it is a pleasure to talk to those who went through...


Btw many never flew in RL but something easy to understand is that imagine to do a Race cars simulator everyone basicly drive here now test a race car game and you will see how different from reality it is.. same with aviation.

I never played a race simulator and drive safely... Typical Volvo-driver... But I used to fly in RL in Yak-18t, An-2 and Yak-52 plus a couple of unknown to general public planes. Unluckily government closed small airports here so for a year I'm stuck on the ground...

mandrill7
05-07-2007, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mandrill7:
I wrote a Kurland campaign for the Yak-3 last fall. The Germans were flying A-8's and G-14's on the Ostfront at Xmas 1944. No Doras and possibly just a few G-10's on a trial basis. The Home Front and Westfront got the best model LW fighters and the Ostfront got the leftovers.

This is not quite true, by the end of 1944, the 109 production was mainly G-10s and K-4s, the older types being gradually withdrawn from the production line. The G-10 in particular was certainly not a rarity, even the small Hungarian and Italian air forces got plenty of those planes late in 1944 just as they arrived. Not sure about Kurland, but you should look up www.ww2.dk , which has the exact type breakdown for all Luftwaffe figher (and bomber etc.) units, as well as their bases.. it may take a little work to work out which unit was where and had what, but all the info is there..

There's a document for Luftlotte 6 on the Eastern Front, there are a lot of G-10 units there, as well as D-9s. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The web OOB I used (forget which one) was pretty explicit about JG51 - which was the formation in East Prussia/ Memel - having G14's. JG54 had 190A-8's.

FPSOLKOR
05-07-2007, 06:27 PM
You forgot SG-3 with F FWs...

TX-Gunslinger
05-07-2007, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by mandrill7:
The web OOB I used (forget which one) was pretty explicit about JG51 - which was the formation in East Prussia/ Memel - having G14's. JG54 had 190A-8's.

JG-54 had A9's in Kurland. Otto Kittel died in one.

By the way, I'm enjoying this thread very, very much. Great discussion.

S~

Gunny

JtD
05-08-2007, 08:39 AM
If you follow the website Kurfrst mentioned before, you will find that JG54 used A-4, A-5, A-6, A-7, A-8 and A-9 at the end of 1944. Now these would most likely have been adjusted to proper boost levels, so in game we would use A-8 and A-9.

mandrill7
05-08-2007, 04:06 PM
In fact, Kurfurst's website was the one I used in designing the campaign. JG51 flew 109G-14's. JG54 had a small # of A-9's, but the large majority of its a/c in late 44 were A-8's or earlier. And I put SG-3's F-8's in the campaign too.

JG52 flew G-14's. I'm not sure if JG3 were still an Ostfront unit at this time, but they indeed flew some G-10's. JG-3 were previously at the very southern end of the Ostfront, far away from Kurland.

In fact, I gave JG51 a flight of G-10's to fly in one of the later missions in the campaign. The Yak-3's still nailed them most of the time when I let the AI fight it out.

JtD
05-09-2007, 12:10 PM
No, JG 3 wasn't around in Kurland. No G-10 from there.

mynameisroland
05-09-2007, 05:27 PM
My favourite of the early Mid war Yaks is the Yak 9. It looks better than the Yak 1B, for me seems to overheat less (placebo ?), has a superior view from cockpit and a better gunsight - hugely important for cockpit locked servers imo - turns better and its performance is a bit better at higher altitudes.

What no one has said is that yes it can out turn Bf 109 F4s and G2s but not at low speeds. Infact Boosher is being slightly misleading when he says you know you have a Bf 109 beat when you see the slats deploy because in slat territory it turns and handles better. You have a faster rate of turn at mid range speeds like 340 km/h so in a sense you have to fight at a higher speed to be more manuverable. Its a mini energy fighter http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I love it but I wish it had triple the ammo count lol, getting 2 or 3 Fw 190 kills in a Yak is like getting 7 or 8 kills in a Fw imo.

BGs_Ricky
05-10-2007, 03:19 AM
Originally posted by mandrill7:
In fact, Kurfurst's website was the one I used in designing the campaign. JG51 flew 109G-14's. JG54 had a small # of A-9's, but the large majority of its a/c in late 44 were A-8's or earlier. And I put SG-3's F-8's in the campaign too.

JG52 flew G-14's. I'm not sure if JG3 were still an Ostfront unit at this time, but they indeed flew some G-10's. JG-3 were previously at the very southern end of the Ostfront, far away from Kurland.

In fact, I gave JG51 a flight of G-10's to fly in one of the later missions in the campaign. The Yak-3's still nailed them most of the time when I let the AI fight it out.

The Stabstaffel of JG 51 flew mainly FW on the eastern front from October 1942, when it was formed from 6/JG51 the only II gruppe staffel which converted to the FW and didn't go to the med. It received some Doras towards the end of the war.

AFAIK JG54's only Doras were the ones from III Gruppe in the west, I and II Gruppe on the Eastern Front only flew Antons to the end of the war (A-8's and 9's in the last months).

As for JG3, I gruppe went to the west in February '43, II and II Gruppen followed after Citadel.

tigertalon
05-10-2007, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
What no one has said is that yes it can out turn Bf 109 F4s and G2s but not at low speeds. Infact Boosher is being slightly misleading when he says you know you have a Bf 109 beat when you see the slats deploy because in slat territory it turns and handles better. You have a faster rate of turn at mid range speeds like 340 km/h so in a sense you have to fight at a higher speed to be more manuverable. Its a mini energy fighter http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hmmm, that's debatable. Yes, 109 can pull higher AoA, and it probably even has smaller turning circle at slow speeds. Still by my experience the "slat's out high AoA" regime slows it down so much that yak actually has better turn ratio despite havin larger turning circle which enables yak pilot to complete his larger circle sooner than 109, and actually get a firing solution.

Probably more than anywhere pilots skill would determine this contest.

mynameisroland
05-10-2007, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
What no one has said is that yes it can out turn Bf 109 F4s and G2s but not at low speeds. Infact Boosher is being slightly misleading when he says you know you have a Bf 109 beat when you see the slats deploy because in slat territory it turns and handles better. You have a faster rate of turn at mid range speeds like 340 km/h so in a sense you have to fight at a higher speed to be more manuverable. Its a mini energy fighter http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hmmm, that's debatable. Yes, 109 can pull higher AoA, and it probably even has smaller turning circle at slow speeds. Still by my experience the "slat's out high AoA" regime slows it down so much that yak actually has better turn ratio despite havin larger turning circle which enables yak pilot to complete his larger circle sooner than 109, and actually get a firing solution.

Probably more than anywhere pilots skill would determine this contest. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Were saying the same thing arent we?

Im trying to say that the Bf 109 has a slow speed turn advantage over the Yak and to overcome it in the Yak you have to be flying faster to get its best turn rate. If you get suckered in to a slow speed turn fight the Bf 109 will win.

Did you know that the Bf 109 can out turn the Hurricane at speeds in the 300km/h range?

Jaws2002
05-10-2007, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillyTheKid_22:
www.airpages.ru/eng/index.html (http://www.airpages.ru/eng/index.html)


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ty for the link Billy! Interesting reading about soviet opinion on captured 190D-9. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


"The high quality of the armored cockpit windshield and successful gun sight design supplemented the well-developed fire control system. In contrast to юте heavily armed domestic aircraft, sighting in on the target was not disrupted when all the guns were firing and the pilot virtually did not feel the recoil.""

They said nothing about the "BAR" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif Were they drunk or what? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

tigertalon
05-10-2007, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:

Were saying the same thing arent we?

Im trying to say that the Bf 109 has a slow speed turn advantage over the Yak and to overcome it in the Yak you have to be flying faster to get its best turn rate. If you get suckered in to a slow speed turn fight the Bf 109 will win.


Probably we are saying the same thing, I just wouldn't say booshers statement about slats was misleading, for (when in a yak) in a moment I see them pop out in a 109 that has no E advantage on me, I know I just gained substantial odds of nailing him because he just dumped some E due to "airbrake" effect of the slats.

On the other hand I believe that 109 stall speed is lower than the one of yak (because of slats), so it's impossible for the yak to slow down as much as 109 (without stalling). Let them both ride their corner speed, and yak will win (IMO).

It's interesting how cocky Bf109F/G pilots are when they encounter a Yak1B/9. Most of cases they behave like you are already dead (in my experience at least).

mynameisroland
05-10-2007, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:

Were saying the same thing arent we?

Im trying to say that the Bf 109 has a slow speed turn advantage over the Yak and to overcome it in the Yak you have to be flying faster to get its best turn rate. If you get suckered in to a slow speed turn fight the Bf 109 will win.


Probably we are saying the same thing, I just wouldn't say booshers statement about slats was misleading, for (when in a yak) in a moment I see them pop out in a 109 that has no E advantage on me, I know I just gained substantial odds of nailing him because he just dumped some E due to "airbrake" effect of the slats.

On the other hand I believe that 109 stall speed is lower than the one of yak (because of slats), so it's impossible for the yak to slow down as much as 109 (without stalling). Let them both ride their corner speed, and yak will win (IMO).

It's interesting how cocky Bf109F/G pilots are when they encounter a Yak1B/9. Most of cases they behave like you are already dead (in my experience at least). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my formative Yak years I got my *** handed to me on full real by an experiencd but average Bf 109 pilot. When I reviewed the fight I realised I was bleeding too much speed when turning allowing him to catch me, instead of turning at my own rate. I saw his slats popping and I too thought "great he's now going to get his comeuppance!" only to get shot down a few secs later.

So Booshers comments need to include the proviso that a Bf 109 at slat speed is good news providing that you are not at the same slow speed.