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Henkie_
09-24-2006, 12:56 PM
Is it that we only "need" trim so that we can let the joystick in the centerposition to fly handsfree?

I don't see the advantages of using trim in the game. As I understand it real pilots use trim to fight against the stickforces more easily? They use trim to not become tired quickly?

I never use trim in the game and I can fly for hours if I want without my arm getting tired. Even on long flights I don't want to fly handsfree anyway. (Well to be honest I only use rudder trim to put the ball in the center, but that's it. I put it once and forgetabout it, because it's undoable and not practical to keep looking at the ball.)

Even without using the (elevator and aileron) trims I do ok in the sim. So if I can play the sim without trim without any problems, what is trim adding? Is trim in the game going to make my plane fly faster, higher and with more acceleration? Is that what trim is for? Or is it going to make me turn faster?

And whatabout trimming during a dogfight? why would you need trim during aircombat in this game? And aileron trim? Who needs it? Who uses it?

So I would like to hear opinions of trim in this sim. who knows, maybe people can persuade me to use trim? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Thx http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MEGILE
09-24-2006, 12:59 PM
Centre the ball for better acceleration..less drag. Especially important for planes like the P-51 wihich will fly with the ball off center.

If you have an X45 rudder, its a pain to coordinate flight constantly while cruising.

p-11.cAce
09-24-2006, 01:16 PM
Elevator Trim in r/l (and sim) only reduces stick pressure as a secondary function - what you are really doing is adjusting "hands off" speed higher or lower. Hop in a plane (in sim) and settle it down at a set speed and altitude: note the amount of forward or a aft stick required to maintain that speed. Now adjust your elevator trim until there is no stick force required to maintain that speed and altitude. This is now your "trim speed" - if you increase speed you will have to apply fwd stick to maintain altitude and if you decrease speed you will have to apply aft stick.
Ok - what good does that do you? Well a whole lot of good actually http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Take landing for example - I like to fly approach in a Emil at 205; so I trim to that speed while setting up to land so I don't have to check my airspeed - if I keep having to push the stick to maintain my approach angle I know I'm going faster than 205, if I have to pull I know I'm slowing down. Same thing in a dogfight - I don't mind pushing so I trim around 250....if I suddenly don't have to push to keep the nose down I know I'm getting slow and approaching a stall.
In rl I really like to feel that stick pressure on approach...even though it would probably be safer to have to pull. I like to feel that the plane wants to fly and I am pushing it to the ground - trimmed the other direction it would feel like the plane wanted to dive but you were pulling it up.

VW-IceFire
09-24-2006, 01:23 PM
For me its the controllability at high speeds requiring less work from me for just holding the nose and trying to aim at the same time. Its also about keeping the plane stable and making it go faster. If its a Tempest...then the rudder trim is huge otherwise you'll be aiming off to the side trying to compensate for the changes in the sideslip during a high speed attack run.

PF_Coastie
09-24-2006, 02:09 PM
The biggest advantage for trim in this sim is for those that use Trim wheels or sliders. This way they can make those rediculous turns at high speeds that would otherwise be impossible.

There is no elevator needed on a 109 when you have trim on a slider. Trim alone will pull you out of a full speed 90 degree dive from less than 500 meters.

I wish Oleg would put the trim delay back. It is just assanine the way it is now.

DmdSeeker
09-24-2006, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
The biggest advantage for trim in this sim is for those that use Trim wheels or sliders. This way they can make those rediculous turns at high speeds that would otherwise be impossible.



There is no elevator needed on a 109 when you have trim on a slider. Trim alone will pull you out of a full speed 90 degree dive from less than 500 meters.

I wish Oleg would put the trim delay back. It is just assanine the way it is now.

I've never seen this online; and of course making a global setting would screw off liners as well. How do they do that with out blacking out?

Of course you can use trim in a dive; there's plenty of combat reports of pilots doing so; in many different plane models.

But the black out limit is the same; trim can't beat that.

FoolTrottel
09-24-2006, 03:42 PM
and I can fly for hours if I want without my arm getting tired

Try using a stick with Force Feedback http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Chuck_Older
09-24-2006, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
Is it that we only "need" trim so that we can let the joystick in the centerposition to fly handsfree?

I don't see the advantages of using trim in the game. As I understand it real pilots use trim to fight against the stickforces more easily? They use trim to not become tired quickly?

I never use trim in the game and I can fly for hours if I want without my arm getting tired. Even on long flights I don't want to fly handsfree anyway. (Well to be honest I only use rudder trim to put the ball in the center, but that's it. I put it once and forgetabout it, because it's undoable and not practical to keep looking at the ball.)

Even without using the (elevator and aileron) trims I do ok in the sim. So if I can play the sim without trim without any problems, what is trim adding? Is trim in the game going to make my plane fly faster, higher and with more acceleration? Is that what trim is for? Or is it going to make me turn faster?

And whatabout trimming during a dogfight? why would you need trim during aircombat in this game? And aileron trim? Who needs it? Who uses it?

So I would like to hear opinions of trim in this sim. who knows, maybe people can persuade me to use trim? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Thx http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

A couple questions...

1) Do you like to get all the performance out of your plane?

2) would you like to catch who you're chasing?

3) do you surrender advantages to your opponents for fun?

and of course

4) <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">do you like to hit what you aim at?</span>


Here is the latest in a line of horrid bmp learning aids, designed by yours truly

In this diagram, the yellow line is your direction of travel. The red lines are your bullet streams, and the blue ball is your target (naturally, the word "stright" is supposed to be "straight" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/trim.jpg


Flying in a sideslip has it's uses, but not when you're aiming. Centering the ball is very important for several things. Sure, you can force the plane to fly where you want...but try following a heading for 20 minutes with no trim http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Trimming up your plane also allows you to put more bullets into your targets. When the ball is centered, your gunsight is a very useful tool. When it's not, the gunsight does not frame where your bullets will hit, as you are in constant deflection to your target, even though it feels as if you're flying stright ahead

WWMaxGunz
09-24-2006, 04:24 PM
Try flying with pitch untrimmed and deciding you need maximal roll. So what do you do?
You move your stick all the way over to one side, right? All the way over to one side
=is= also at forward-back center on every stick I've seen as the things move in a circle
despite the boxes that calibration routines show.
So your stick is all the way to the side and the plane is running where you need to hold
nose down to fly level then what kind of roll will you get? What kind of roll rate?

Throw slip into that and if you're unaware of any of those then 5 out of 10 simmers with
experience in sims where it never mattered decides there's things wrong with the sim.

As Oleg pointed out to a post I made in 2002, you can't hold the stick as steady as when
it is trimmed so you won't get the full speed. Our desktop joysticks are simply too short.

Couple that with force-based stick interface we have and sensitivity sliders on curve and
you get that trim is crucial.

If you're going into a fight and know you're going to be slowing down then yeah, trim a
eight or dozen or so taps of nose up as you go into that first turn or better yet, think
ahead and avoid the whole e-blowing slowdown if you can. Your aim will be better as the
nose will tend to bob less when you're trying to find the right amount of stick pull and
it's not close to center where you may have sensitive stick set but instead you are pulling
into the region sliders have more response for less pull -- if the plane is still changing
speed then you will end up overcorrecting up and down, what is called pilot induced
oscillation (PIO). Sorry but it is part result of joystick, part sim, and part pilot of
which the effect also happens not so easily but well known in real flying where the term
comes from. Yeah, PIO is not a simmism.

WWMaxGunz
09-24-2006, 04:35 PM
Chuck you have the right idea but the wrong diagram.

The target will always be where the sight points. The blue ball is target?
On the left pic the blue ball should be inside where the red lines meet and it should have
an arrow pointing straight ahead to where the red lines meet.
On the right had pic it should be inside where the red lines meet but it should have arrow
pointing straight ahead (up) to not where the red lines meet.

EDIT: Oh I make a boo-boo. That is not totally exact. Really also the red lines have
arrow or on the right side pic the meeting point shifts "up" in to show effect of sideways
movement on the shots themselves imparted by motion sideways to aim by the plane in slip.

Error in aim from slip will be Tan of slip angle x range of shot if both planes move at
the same speed. In BnZ with high closure it will be less, you can shoot just as bad from
greater range! Well... not... YOU, Chuck... but someone who doesn't rudder the ball to
center. And I do trim but keep the ball centered as much/often as I can with rudder.
Besides, 109's and some others have no rudder trim. Some day, I get those pedals!

Henkie_
09-24-2006, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
Centre the ball for better acceleration..less drag. Especially important for planes like the P-51 wihich will fly with the ball off center.

If you have an X45 rudder, its a pain to coordinate flight constantly while cruising.

Yes I do rudder trim to center the ball, but I do that only for cruising. I center the ball for max. power and then leave it there.

Do you adjust rudder trim during aircombat also? Or during turns?

Henkie_
09-24-2006, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
Elevator Trim in r/l (and sim) only reduces stick pressure as a secondary function - what you are really doing is adjusting "hands off" speed higher or lower. Hop in a plane (in sim) and settle it down at a set speed and altitude: note the amount of forward or a aft stick required to maintain that speed. Now adjust your elevator trim until there is no stick force required to maintain that speed and altitude. This is now your "trim speed" - if you increase speed you will have to apply fwd stick to maintain altitude and if you decrease speed you will have to apply aft stick.
Ok - what good does that do you? Well a whole lot of good actually http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Take landing for example - I like to fly approach in a Emil at 205; so I trim to that speed while setting up to land so I don't have to check my airspeed - if I keep having to push the stick to maintain my approach angle I know I'm going faster than 205, if I have to pull I know I'm slowing down. Same thing in a dogfight - I don't mind pushing so I trim around 250....if I suddenly don't have to push to keep the nose down I know I'm getting slow and approaching a stall.
In rl I really like to feel that stick pressure on approach...even though it would probably be safer to have to pull. I like to feel that the plane wants to fly and I am pushing it to the ground - trimmed the other direction it would feel like the plane wanted to dive but you were pulling it up.

Ok, so you adjust trim for a certain speed?
But are you talking about elevator and rudder trim only? Or also about aileron trim?

Henkie_
09-24-2006, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by FoolTrottel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and I can fly for hours if I want without my arm getting tired

Try using a stick with Force Feedback http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use a FFB stick http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Only without the FFB effects and without centering. I decided that without centering I could play a lot longer without my arms getting tired. But more importantly, I can push the stick where it must be without having to fight that centering force.

Henkie_
09-24-2006, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:

A couple questions...

1) Do you like to get all the performance out of your plane?

2) would you like to catch who you're chasing?

3) do you surrender advantages to your opponents for fun?

and of course

4) <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">do you like to hit what you aim at?</span>


Here is the latest in a line of horrid bmp learning aids, designed by yours truly

In this diagram, the yellow line is your direction of travel. The red lines are your bullet streams, and the blue ball is your target (naturally, the word "stright" is supposed to be "straight" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/trim.jpg


Flying in a sideslip has it's uses, but not when you're aiming. Centering the ball is very important for several things. Sure, you can force the plane to fly where you want...but try following a heading for 20 minutes with no trim http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Trimming up your plane also allows you to put more bullets into your targets. When the ball is centered, your gunsight is a very useful tool. When it's not, the gunsight does not frame where your bullets will hit, as you are in constant deflection to your target, even though it feels as if you're flying stright ahead

Ok first, I already wrote that I use the rudder trim, but I only use it for long flight cruising and not for anything else. I set the rudder trim once and don't touch it anymore.

and to answer your questions:

1. yes in general I want max. performance but I make some compromises because I can't watch the ball every second during a dogfight. Sometimes it's more important to watch the bandit. In a real plane I would, because you can really feel the stickforces or if the plane is sideslipping, but in the sim we can not feel it.

The only force we feel in the game is the centering force. We don't feel the stickforces.
So if you can't feel the stickforces, how can you trim good?

2. Ofcourse I want to catch the plane that I am chasing. So yes for that I would center the ball. But if I am in an I16 (no trim) trying to catch a 109G2, then I will let the bullets do the catching. I simply don't/can not watch the ball when shooting.

3. I never felt any disadvantage for not using trim (aileron or elevator and rudder for centering the ball for cruise). The advantage it gives me for not using those trims constantly, is that I can let others worry about it. I have more attention for the bandit(s). Up to now I have always done ok playing the game without trim.

4. Yes I like to hit what I aim at. But like I wrote before, while or before shooting I usually have no time to watch the ball anyway. Are you saying that you watch the ball almost constantly?

And thx for the picture http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Xiolablu3
09-24-2006, 11:46 PM
Hi, I hardly ever trim either. NEVER rudder or Aileron.

SOmetimes elevator, but not constantly, only when being chased and I want max speed without interference from my stick slowing me down.

I just got used to compensating with the stick like you.

fordfan25
09-24-2006, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by DmdSeeker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
The biggest advantage for trim in this sim is for those that use Trim wheels or sliders. This way they can make those rediculous turns at high speeds that would otherwise be impossible.



There is no elevator needed on a 109 when you have trim on a slider. Trim alone will pull you out of a full speed 90 degree dive from less than 500 meters.

I wish Oleg would put the trim delay back. It is just assanine the way it is now.

I've never seen this online; and of course making a global setting would screw off liners as well. How do they do that with out blacking out?

Of course you can use trim in a dive; there's plenty of combat reports of pilots doing so; in many different plane models.

But the black out limit is the same; trim can't beat that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I have seen it. 109's can make harder turns at higher speeds than say a p-51 with out blacking out or loseing a wing if useing above stated methode. its a BS cheat/exploit. IMHO

Henkie_
09-24-2006, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Try flying with pitch untrimmed and deciding you need maximal roll. So what do you do?
You move your stick all the way over to one side, right? All the way over to one side
=is= also at forward-back center on every stick I've seen as the things move in a circle
despite the boxes that calibration routines show.
So your stick is all the way to the side and the plane is running where you need to hold
nose down to fly level then what kind of roll will you get? What kind of roll rate?

Throw slip into that and if you're unaware of any of those then 5 out of 10 simmers with
experience in sims where it never mattered decides there's things wrong with the sim.

As Oleg pointed out to a post I made in 2002, you can't hold the stick as steady as when
it is trimmed so you won't get the full speed. Our desktop joysticks are simply too short.

Couple that with force-based stick interface we have and sensitivity sliders on curve and
you get that trim is crucial.

If you're going into a fight and know you're going to be slowing down then yeah, trim a
eight or dozen or so taps of nose up as you go into that first turn or better yet, think
ahead and avoid the whole e-blowing slowdown if you can. Your aim will be better as the
nose will tend to bob less when you're trying to find the right amount of stick pull and
it's not close to center where you may have sensitive stick set but instead you are pulling
into the region sliders have more response for less pull -- if the plane is still changing
speed then you will end up overcorrecting up and down, what is called pilot induced
oscillation (PIO). Sorry but it is part result of joystick, part sim, and part pilot of
which the effect also happens not so easily but well known in real flying where the term
comes from. Yeah, PIO is not a simmism.

I don't understand what you are saying in the first lines?

And why 8 or a dozen taps nose up trim, and not 4 or 25? What I mean is how can you tell how much trim you need when you are going in a turn?
You can't feel the stickforces that you must trim away. You can only feel the centering force. And that centering force is different on all joysticks and not even a function of airspeed.

The centering force is always the same when the plane is stopped on the runway or when flying at 700kph. But I guess the stickforce is not the same only we can not feel that stickforce.

I have the sensitivity sliders all on 100% but I don't have any trouble of PIO without trimming, so from that point of view I don't see why I would need trim?

BfHeFwMe
09-24-2006, 11:57 PM
There's some really funky things going on with the simplistic trim system in the sim. For instance you can trim your stall speeds lower, and trim has a dramatic effect on stall control ability long before you reach speeds where you begin to lose control movement due to force.

Easily demonstrated by taking off in any plane and holding the stick full back, try it without and with trimming the elevator back. It should relieve forces, not increase control input rates and lower stalls at any speed.

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
The biggest advantage for trim in this sim is for those that use Trim wheels or sliders. This way they can make those rediculous turns at high speeds that would otherwise be impossible.

There is no elevator needed on a 109 when you have trim on a slider. Trim alone will pull you out of a full speed 90 degree dive from less than 500 meters.

I wish Oleg would put the trim delay back. It is just assanine the way it is now.

Do you mean you can fly with trim alone?

That sounds not right.

A fast turn at high speed will cause blackout yes? And I would think that trim would help by pulling out of a fast dive, so is it wrong?

TheGozr
09-25-2006, 12:37 AM
Is that you Oleg ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

F19_Ob
09-25-2006, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
Is it that we only "need" trim so that we can let the joystick in the centerposition to fly handsfree?

I don't see the advantages of using trim in the game. As I understand it real pilots use trim to fight against the stickforces more easily? They use trim to not become tired quickly?

I never use trim in the game and I can fly for hours if I want without my arm getting tired. )



Well without using trim in the sim most planes gets a rising nose as speed increases and in some it becomes impossible to aim well because the plane works against your movements, wich is just unnessessary.

Flying with battle damage can be very difficult and trim may save the day in helping a flippy bird keep straight when going in for a rough landing.
Trim can stop unvoluntery rolling to some degree in a situation where turning is nessesary (evasion for example).
Turning hard and being forced to use ailereons to stop the rolling motion when damaged will often result in a flip or spin because the roll may dramatically and rapidly increase.

I've made too many landings with ailerons and elevators out, wich have left me with flaps and rudder. In those situations I'm glad if my rudder has trim. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

in real life flying without trim could become quite tiresome (as u mentioned) after a couple of hours in high speed, and especially after 5-6 hours as fo p-51 pilots.
Trim was also very useful in formationflying and and helped to stop veering and thus disturbing the formation.

Viper2005_
09-25-2006, 01:29 AM
IRL I trim my glider so that I can take my hand off the stick & eat lunch...

In game I tim my Fw-190 so that I can take a walk to the fridge in the kitchen and obtain chilled refreshments with every expectation of returning to find my aeroplane still flying. Trim is important!

In the good old days I also used to fly on the trimmers if the main control circuits were damaged. Since most aeroplanes with trim tabs use different cables for trim, this was quite realistic, and allowed me to save a fair few aircraft after the loss of my elevator control cables (and sometimes ailerons or rudder too...)

Trim is useful. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Treetop64
09-25-2006, 01:40 AM
Henkie, trim is important, but how and when you apply it wholly depends on many, many variables in flight, and also whether your are in a tactical situation or merely cruising. Futhermore, which trim axis you have available depends on which aircraft you are flying.

Many of the axis machines featured trim adjustment for the pitch axis only (A6M series, Bf109 series, etc.), while many allied machines - particularly the American planes - can adjust the trim in the pitch, yaw, and roll axis.

In short, the trim is there to reduce the physical workload of flying the crate for the pilot. For example, if you are in a long range cruising situation, you want to apply the minimum amount of your own energy to the stick and rudder to keep the craft straight and level in flight. You do that by "trimming" the aircraft, and an aircraft properly trimmed will fly itself straight and level. Same goes for takeoff, climb, and approach and landing; you will use different trim settings for each of these phases in flight.

All of this is because while the machine is flying at different speeds and attitudes, different levels of aerodynamic forces will act on the surfaces of the aircraft while it's moving through the air. Piston engines will also impose gyroscopic forces on the machine while it's operating, and you will need to adjust trim (rudder trim, if it's available on the aircraft you're flying) further to compensate for it.

However, please keep in mind that trim is used only as a subtle adjustment to the flight controls - not as a substitute to the controls - to make it easier and less tiring for the pilot to keep the machine pointed to where he wants it to go. This has much more of an impact in real life than it does in the sim, as one can quite literally become tired out from flying an aircraft over a considerable distance without trim. Moreover, trim becomes very handy if you've suffered damage that severely alters the flight characteristics of your aircraft. If you've been hit, and find that now your machine want to roll strongly to the left, you can adjust aileron trim to counter the adverse roll you're experincing, instead of forever applying stick pressure to counter the roll. But this will only apply if the machine you're flying is equipped with aileron trim.

As with many things in this sim, the best way to learn how it all works is to simply dive in and learn the old-fashined way. It is only with continued practice that you will learn the importance of trim and how to use it. Once you think you got the basic jist of trimming an aircraft, jump into a Polikarpov I-16 and feel how different it is to fly an aircraft that has absolutely no trim adjustment at all! History references universally note the difficulties pilots faced with flying this particular type specifically because it offered no trim adjustments for the pilots, and simply keeping the crate straight and level was a tiring exercise for them.

Good luck, and have fun!

WOLFMondo
09-25-2006, 02:00 AM
If you don't trim some planes they fly in a constant side slip. The Tempest being the worst culprit.

SeaFireLIV
09-25-2006, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
Is it that we only "need" trim so that we can let the joystick in the centerposition to fly handsfree?

I don't see the advantages of using trim in the game.
Thx http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I`m surprised to hear you say that, henkie considering you`re an EAFer. I used to think the same a long time ago, but I find it invaluable not only for level flight or climb, etc, but also in aiming and dogfighting. Often, that little extra trim at a crucial moment makes a difference in whether I outturn, or just reach a shot via deflection on a target for a kill.

R_Target
09-25-2006, 07:24 AM
I only use aileron trim when one of the wings is all shot up. Depending on the plane, I use the other two frequently to constantly

p-11.cAce
09-25-2006, 07:59 AM
Ok, so you adjust trim for a certain speed?
But are you talking about elevator and rudder trim only? Or also about aileron trim?

You have to adjust all axis of trim depending on your speed - if you trim elevator for zero stick force at 300 knots and you speed up to 310 you will enter a climb, slow and you will begin to dive. Rudder trim to the left at 300 for zero rudder pressure and speed up to 310 and you will yaw left, slow and you will yaw right. Aileron trim to the left at 300 and speed up, you will roll left, slow and you will roll right. The point is that any trim point only works at one discreet speed value. In rl I work the elevator trim in my glider constantly - if I want to speed through sink I trim down so I get zero stick force at 100 knots...enter a thermal and I crank up the trim so the stick has zero pressure at 58 knots or so.

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by F19_Ob:
Well without using trim in the sim most planes gets a rising nose as speed increases and in some it becomes impossible to aim well because the plane works against your movements, wich is just unnessessary.

Flying with battle damage can be very difficult and trim may save the day in helping a flippy bird keep straight when going in for a rough landing.
Trim can stop unvoluntery rolling to some degree in a situation where turning is nessesary (evasion for example).
Turning hard and being forced to use ailereons to stop the rolling motion when damaged will often result in a flip or spin because the roll may dramatically and rapidly increase.

I've made too many landings with ailerons and elevators out, wich have left me with flaps and rudder. In those situations I'm glad if my rudder has trim. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

in real life flying without trim could become quite tiresome (as u mentioned) after a couple of hours in high speed, and especially after 5-6 hours as fo p-51 pilots.
Trim was also very useful in formationflying and and helped to stop veering and thus disturbing the formation.

If the planes nose rises and I don't want it to rise, I just adjust the nose back with the stick, not with trim. It's not any trouble at all really. I don't find it impossible to aim at all never using trim.

And I didn't know that pilots used trim to aim either?

Involuntary rolling I stop with ailerons. It costs no trouble also to do that without trim.

About battle damage, I once had my elevators shot but to land I used the throttle to control descent. No elevator trim nescessary.

I agree that in real life flying trimming must be needed. But that is my point, even if trim is modelled in the game (we) at least I, can play fine without it.

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
IRL I trim my glider so that I can take my hand off the stick & eat lunch...

In game I tim my Fw-190 so that I can take a walk to the fridge in the kitchen and obtain chilled refreshments with every expectation of returning to find my aeroplane still flying. Trim is important!

In the good old days I also used to fly on the trimmers if the main control circuits were damaged. Since most aeroplanes with trim tabs use different cables for trim, this was quite realistic, and allowed me to save a fair few aircraft after the loss of my elevator control cables (and sometimes ailerons or rudder too...)

Trim is useful. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If I want I can do the same that you do with the FW190, but without trim http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif So for me trim is not important to do the same that you do with trim.

About the battle damage, I think I will give aileron trim a try when my one of my ailerons are gone. But I think I never even used aileron trim once so far.

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
If you don't trim some planes they fly in a constant side slip. The Tempest being the worst culprit.

Are you talking about rudder trim? That I will use to center the ball, but that's about it.

waffen-79
09-25-2006, 10:15 AM
for me, elevator trim is a MUST, I don't care for rudder or aileron trims

Chuck_Older
09-25-2006, 10:16 AM
Well it seems you have answered your own question, Henkie. You realise why there's a need for trim and you do use it. If you can see where rudder trim might be needed, and then you consider that yaw is only one of three axes on a plane, then you can see for yourself why trim is useful

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie_:
Is it that we only "need" trim so that we can let the joystick in the centerposition to fly handsfree?

I don't see the advantages of using trim in the game.
Thx http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I`m surprised to hear you say that, henkie considering you`re an EAFer. I used to think the same a long time ago, but I find it invaluable not only for level flight or climb, etc, but also in aiming and dogfighting. Often, that little extra trim at a crucial moment makes a difference in whether I outturn, or just reach a shot via deflection on a target for a kill. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see why I as a member of EAF has anything to do with using trim or not. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I can just say that I never saw the use for trim for what it was intended to do. Not before or after I joined EAF. (Only exception is for rudder trim that I use to center the ball ofcourse)

I would use trim if I can feel the stickforces. But I can't feel them. Nobody can feel the stickforces in the game.

What some people here do is trim away the centering force, but that is very different from the stickforces that are dependant on the airspeed.

Trimming in a dogfight? what is that supposed to help? Will it make you turn faster? Did you find that out by trying or can you provide tracks or tests to prove it?

As I understood about trim, it was not for turning at all, only to relieve the stickforces.
So basically what I am asking is, how can we know the real stickforces? Because imo we don't know them. We only know/feel the stick centering force.

But on my stick I turned off the centering force, so in my case I can't feel the centering force, nor the stickforce. So that is why I really see no need for using trim (except for rudder trim), because I can feel neither the center force nor the stickforce.

Chuck_Older
09-25-2006, 10:28 AM
Well like I've said, trimming at any time, dogfight or not, will help to improve your accuracy

Do what you want, don't trim. I'm gonna, and I hits what I aims at http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SeaFireLIV
09-25-2006, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Henkie_:


Trimming in a dogfight? what is that supposed to help? Will it make you turn faster? Did you find that out by trying or can you provide tracks or tests to prove it?

.

Really? It helps quite a lot and can give that very slight edge. If you expect me to provide tracks to prove it then it`s not happening cos there`s a better way. maybe you don`t realise it yet, but I`m also an EAF member and if you want I can show you (much easier than making tracks). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 11:24 AM
Trimming to increase gunnery accuracy?

I never knew that trim in a real plane or simplane was used to improve accuracy?

The accuracy for me depends on the steadiness of the stickhand, not with trim. I also aim and hit at what I shoot at, without any problems without trim.

Chuck_Older
09-25-2006, 11:39 AM
Seems to me you don't want help, you want to defend your system of no trim against all comers. As far as accuracy goes, it's no great mental leap- if your fore and aft axis is in line with your direction of flight, you have zero deflection to a target in your gunsights. I gave you diagram for this, you know? It's not hard to understand that if you are yawed 1* to the left, then you are automatically putting a 1* deflection into your shots. They taught this to US pilots- center your ball. That's why it's on some of the gunsights. Ever notice? Anyway, you already said you use trim, so what's the beef? Sounds like you just want to argue

Do what you like, no skin off my nose. I'm glad you're such a good sim pilot

F6_Ace
09-25-2006, 11:44 AM
You need trim because, if you didn't have it, RayBanJockey wouldn't have existed.

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 12:51 PM
Who is Raybanjocky?

@Chuck_Older:

I am not looking for help, just trying to discuss what trim must do in a real plane and what it does in the simplanes in FB. It looks that there is some difference that is all. I want to know what people use trim for in the game.

You say that it increases accuracy and others say that they will turn faster in the dogfight.

I am only saying that I never knew that trim in real planes was used for that as well, for accuracy or to turn faster. (i am talking about elevator and aileron trim - for rudder trim it was always clear to me that the ball must be trimmed to the center)

Maybe the ww2 pilot veterans use trim for more accuracy or better turning, but I don't know that. I only know that pilots use trim to relieve the stickforce that's the only thing I understood of it.

But we as simpilots can not feel that stickforce. So how can you trim away something that you can not even feel? That is I guess my main question about trim. We only feel the center force or for those with FFB the FFB force. The only thing we can see in FB is the slipball (for rudder trim)

It's like I see now that some use trim for other things than what I always thought trim is for originally. I don't say it's good or bad, but I have some questions about the validity of trim in the game.

In a real plane there's no question that you must trim. But in the game..I am not convinced it is nescessary.

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie_:


Trimming in a dogfight? what is that supposed to help? Will it make you turn faster? Did you find that out by trying or can you provide tracks or tests to prove it?

.

Really? It helps quite a lot and can give that very slight edge. If you expect me to provide tracks to prove it then it`s not happening cos there`s a better way. maybe you don`t realise it yet, but I`m also an EAF member and if you want I can show you (much easier than making tracks). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are an EAF member? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Sorry, but who then? I must look again good on the roster?

TheGozr
09-25-2006, 12:59 PM
Fly more, spend some time flying you'll get your answer by yourself. Think about it a bit more. and think why they need to releave pressure on the stick ? and why the stick have pressure?
Why do you aligned your wheels on your car, motorcycle or bike if you cannot find an answer then you will need serious help until then fly and fly and think.

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 01:08 PM
Think some more about it yourself too? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I don't know what kind of joystick you use? Maybe one that goes back to the center when you let it go?

That is the centering force of the stick, not to be confused with the stickforce.

A joystick like that will have pressure on it to return to center when the airplane is sitting still on the runway and will have that same pressure when travelling 700kph.

But stickforce in a real plane is not like that. It will be very high at high speeds and very low at low speeds.

I am only questioning the need for trim in this game.

TheGozr
09-25-2006, 01:12 PM
Well i think a lots about it when flying and i am far to be confused, unlike you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Now answer me this question:
Why do you aligned your wheels on your car, motorcycle or bike ?

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 01:24 PM
do you mean that pilots in real airplanes use trim to align their wings? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TheGozr
09-25-2006, 01:27 PM
Answer the question plz .
To your question yes basicly.

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Treetop64:
In short, the trim is there to reduce the physical workload of flying the crate for the pilot. For example, if you are in a long range cruising situation, you want to apply the minimum amount of your own energy to the stick and rudder to keep the craft straight and level in flight. You do that by "trimming" the aircraft, and an aircraft properly trimmed will fly itself straight and level. Same goes for takeoff, climb, and approach and landing; you will use different trim settings for each of these phases in flight.

....

Good luck, and have fun!

Gozr, here you have a good description of what trim is for in real airplanes.

Treetop, good post about the working and nescessity of trim in real airplanes. Thx http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifThat is exactly what I thought trim was for.

But in my case I don't get tired of holding the stick in 1 place even on long flights to fly straight and level. In my case, there is no physical workload to hold the stick for level and straight flying. I have no centering force nor forcefeedback force. And the simulated stickforce, well I can't feel that one.

But thx for your comments, you too good luck and have fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TheGozr
09-25-2006, 01:36 PM
SO answer my question.

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 01:41 PM
it's already answered: Trim is not to align wings of planes it's to...


"reduce the physical workload of flying the crate for the pilot"

That is what trim is for: to reduce the physical workload of flying the crate.

So basically what I am asking is, if in my case, I have no physical workload of flying the crate in the game, then what need is there to reduce the physical workload?

TheGozr
09-25-2006, 01:43 PM
Why do you align your wheels on your car ?

WWMaxGunz
09-25-2006, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Try flying with pitch untrimmed and deciding you need maximal roll. So what do you do?
You move your stick all the way over to one side, right? All the way over to one side
=is= also at forward-back center on every stick I've seen as the things move in a circle
despite the boxes that calibration routines show.
So your stick is all the way to the side and the plane is running where you need to hold
nose down to fly level then what kind of roll will you get? What kind of roll rate?

Throw slip into that and if you're unaware of any of those then 5 out of 10 simmers with
experience in sims where it never mattered decides there's things wrong with the sim.

As Oleg pointed out to a post I made in 2002, you can't hold the stick as steady as when
it is trimmed so you won't get the full speed. Our desktop joysticks are simply too short.

Couple that with force-based stick interface we have and sensitivity sliders on curve and
you get that trim is crucial.

If you're going into a fight and know you're going to be slowing down then yeah, trim a
eight or dozen or so taps of nose up as you go into that first turn or better yet, think
ahead and avoid the whole e-blowing slowdown if you can. Your aim will be better as the
nose will tend to bob less when you're trying to find the right amount of stick pull and
it's not close to center where you may have sensitive stick set but instead you are pulling
into the region sliders have more response for less pull -- if the plane is still changing
speed then you will end up overcorrecting up and down, what is called pilot induced
oscillation (PIO). Sorry but it is part result of joystick, part sim, and part pilot of
which the effect also happens not so easily but well known in real flying where the term
comes from. Yeah, PIO is not a simmism.

I don't understand what you are saying in the first lines? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you know all about force-based stick interface then skip the next two paragraphs.

First understand that your joystick position is not directly where the control stick in the
3D cockpit moves to. Indirectly yes, directly no. As in real moving planes the trim moves
where the stick will be hands off. And yes you can fly a plane with trim alone if you have
all controls trimmable but you won't be able to do anything quicker than slow that way. It
is real that can be done. The trim adjusts forces and the stick will move hands off when
trim is changed, I promise you.
In IL2 series your joystick is set up for feel, not position. It commands how much strength
the pilot pulls or pushes on the controls, not where the pilot moves the controls to. The
sliders are adjustments to that force only. So what your joystick center position is, is
wherever the trim has centered the control stick. Hands off on your joystick is hands off
on the controls. Trim moves the control stick zero force position and your joystick tells
the pilot to apply force to wherever that trimmed position is.

So we go back to the above. You are flying along fast and holding the nose down with your
joystick. The pilot is pushing forward on the controls. Now you want to roll as hard and
fast as possible so you move your joystick all the way to one side. With most joysticks
when you do that, 'all the way to one side' physically forces the stick to be neutral in
the Y-axis (forward-back axis) because they move in a circle and the widest sideways points
are directly across the center from each other.
That position all the way to one side and Y-axis centered no longer holds the nose down. So
your roll also includes nose up since Y-axis at neutral is nose up compared to what you were
doing to fly level. In essence you end up with a sloppy barrel roll, sort of depending on
how far out of trim you were flying in the first place.
If you don't crank the stick hard over and have it slide against the physical ring then you
can get your side force without losing your nose down force but you won't get the maximum,
again with most sticks. I had a CH once where the stick was not circle-limited. The gymbal
was a slotted Y-axis roller with stick pivoted as X-axis inside the slot all inside a little
box with two buttons but very easy to move and very precise. I had that until 1998 when a
2 axis 2 button stick was no longer enough and since then they all force the stick to move
in circles. You know of one that doesn't and has decent HOTAS please let me know!


And why 8 or a dozen taps nose up trim, and not 4 or 25? What I mean is how can you tell how much trim you need when you are going in a turn?
You can't feel the stickforces that you must trim away. You can only feel the centering force. And that centering force is different on all joysticks and not even a function of airspeed.

That is what you are supposed to be doing with the sliders. Adjusting the joystick so that
the springs (motors with FB sticks) give an analog to the strength-force you are inputting.
The feel should be proportional which to my mind says the sliders should be all the same
but when I look at Olegs' settings I see they get harder per distance joystick moves as it
is moved back and the harder is in a roughly linear fashion... perhaps to match his springs?

I wish I knew enough Russian to have a deeper discussion with him on just this subject because
it is and has been at the crux of many FM discussions since almost the start, back in 2002.

As for how many key taps? That's just experience and a guess depending on how much speed
I am going to lose or gain (say in a dive). 12 taps might cover under 100kph change to
some degree. Perhaps I would find myself needing more. I would rather need more than go
over, but that may just be me. I'm only trying to match where I think I'll end up in speed.

I have seen quotes here from German pilots who would crank in some trim going into a turn
knowing that upon exit they would be going slower. There is also on the web a chapter from
Bud Andersons' biography where he describes constant in combat use of trim on the P-51.
It was done by experienced pilots and it was part of the difference. A tired pilot is one
with less edge.


The centering force is always the same when the plane is stopped on the runway or when flying at 700kph. But I guess the stickforce is not the same only we can not feel that stickforce.

Don't go by stopped on the runway. That is one place where the hardware-simulation breaks
down. At least for non-FFB there is no solution and I suspect it would be complex for FFB
to get each different mechanism just so with weights and balance points and no backforces.


I have the sensitivity sliders all on 100% but I don't have any trouble of PIO without trimming, so from that point of view I don't see why I would need trim?

Yeah I know. That has been my solution since summer 2002. Maybe not all 100% though. I
did not lose as much speed flying maneuvers trim neutral with all 90's or left slider at
90 and going up 1 point each slider. But then I never made best speed or climb either so
I trimmed for steady flight and hit neutral to fight. It also made aiming better as I had
less nose bobbing but again not as good as if I trimmed to speed which is just as you say,
there is no feel of trim. It's not like real in the sense you hold the stick and turn the
wheel (or thumb the button) and you can feel the stick get lighter on your fingers. You
have to tap trim or move slider or dial and loosen up on your stick just fast enough to
hold the nose steady ---but--- given the hardware there are only few solutions at all and
none has all the elements of feel, position and trim.

Since 4.0 I have been using sliders in a line but not all the same. Right side at 100 but
each one going left at 3 or 4 or so less than the previous depending on axis. I also use
FILTER but no DEADZONE. If I need deadzone it is time to get a new stick or fix this one.
Filter smooths the moves and prevents digitization stutter (when stick position is on the
'edge' or very closely so between two values, it will oscillate between them and can be
seen on a digital display. The cheaper the circuit, the worse it is.) from affecting my
flight.

Sounds like you have most of the deal in hand but definitely use trim for all steady flight
regimes for efficiency. Know where the neutralize keys are. Screw with the sliders too.
When you roll, keep that stick forward or back just as far as you had it.

And for rudder... set the trim for speed but always try and keep the ball centered not by
trim (unless you are flying steady speed) but by the rudder. Flying with slip will throw
your aim off, blow your speed and energy and just as bad will stall you quicker and force
you into a spin every time since spin requires +both+ stall and slip. Without slip, stall
will only force the plane to fall. Of course if you stall bad enough and nose it up far
enough you will not be able to keep from slipping....

The slip is the worst and since 4.0 we don't have that sort of auto-rudder many noticed.
Those who never did really, really miss it though!

WWMaxGunz
09-25-2006, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
Involuntary rolling I stop with ailerons. It costs no trouble also to do that without trim.

Almost all of the time you should correct that with rudder. Check the ball or in Spitfires
check the slip indicator way down on the lower right panel. If it's in slip then it is also
probably got some roll due to slip-roll coupling. Fixing with side stick leaves you in slip
which least effect is you are slower.

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 02:08 PM
Thx WWMaxGunz http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif,

For now, you look to be the only one really understanding what I mean.

BTW I didn't know that part about the force based stick interface. I always thought the position of the joystick was exactly the position of the virtual stick with all sliders at 100%.

At least that is what I see in the calibration window. But didn't know about that force based stick interface. It was new for me so thx for the explanation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Where did you learn this?

WWMaxGunz
09-25-2006, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
I don't know what kind of joystick you use? Maybe one that goes back to the center when you let it go?

That is the centering force of the stick, not to be confused with the stickforce.

A joystick like that will have pressure on it to return to center when the airplane is sitting still on the runway and will have that same pressure when travelling 700kph.

But stickforce in a real plane is not like that. It will be very high at high speeds and very low at low speeds.

Really? I must have been hallucinating! In flight if I felt force on the column and let
go, the column would move to wherever it was trimmed for.

What kind of plane did you see different in?

And NO, I am NOT talking about sitting on the runway. You only get backforces in flight.

WWMaxGunz
09-25-2006, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
do you mean that pilots in real airplanes use trim to align their wings? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In any steady flight regime the answer is yes.

During short maneuvers the answer is no. Trim is not fast enough and can get you in trouble.

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie_:
Involuntary rolling I stop with ailerons. It costs no trouble also to do that without trim.

Almost all of the time you should correct that with rudder. Check the ball or in Spitfires
check the slip indicator way down on the lower right panel. If it's in slip then it is also
probably got some roll due to slip-roll coupling. Fixing with side stick leaves you in slip
which least effect is you are slower. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That may well be true, but I also must make compromises. And I think it's a reasonably good compromise also. There is not always the need to fly the most energy efficient flightpath all the time as well.

I mean, if I could watch the ball and the bandit at the same time, I would trim the rudder more. But unfortunately I must choose and since I can't feel the plane sideslipping, I will keep my eye on the bandit or threat most of the time instead of on the slipball. It's a pity that we must choose, but I must make the choice for keeping the eye on the bandit, forgetting about rudder trim in that moment even though I may fly slower.

Besides, in during violent maneuvers it's hard to keep the slipball still and centered as well. And I can only guess because I never tested or tried it, but somehow I expect the speed difference between flying coordinated or not, at least in FB would be marginal.

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie_:
I don't know what kind of joystick you use? Maybe one that goes back to the center when you let it go?

That is the centering force of the stick, not to be confused with the stickforce.

A joystick like that will have pressure on it to return to center when the airplane is sitting still on the runway and will have that same pressure when travelling 700kph.

But stickforce in a real plane is not like that. It will be very high at high speeds and very low at low speeds.

Really? I must have been hallucinating! In flight if I felt force on the column and let
go, the column would move to wherever it was trimmed for.

What kind of plane did you see different in?

And NO, I am NOT talking about sitting on the runway. You only get backforces in flight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry I mean to say what you wrote here only I can't say it so good in English http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif I mean that you only get stickforces in flight.

I don't know if the controls in a real airplane will center also like a joystick, but I think not.

All that I mean to say is that the backforce as you call it is a function of aircraftspeed and not a function of amount of stickdeflection (centering spring)

Treetop64
09-25-2006, 02:35 PM
Henkie, I think what TheGozr is saying is that if the wheels of a car are misaligned, the car will always want to pull in one direction or another, forcing the driver to forever apply a bit of opposite pressure on the steering wheel to keep the car going in the direction he wants it to go. If it were possible to actively adjust the alignement while driving to correct the handling of a car, then that would be the same as actively adjusting the trim to create the desired handling in an aircraft.

The focus is more about adjusting the plane's handling to fly the way you want it to, without having to constantly apply some opposite pressure on the controls themselves, just to point the machine in a certain direction which - at a minimum - can become quite annoying. This is not a focus on how much physical exertion it takes to actually fly the plane. Those are two complely different sets of dynamics that have their own place and relevance. Don't confuse the two.

Trim has a significant effect on the handling of the aircraft in the sim, Henkie, especially in cruising and in aiming while dogfighting. Again, become proficient in flying and shooting down what you're firing at, then compare the tasks in an aircraft that has trim adjustments (ie. P-47), and one that has none at all (ie. I-16), then come back and share your experinces.

WWMaxGunz
09-25-2006, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
Thx WWMaxGunz http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif,

For now, you look to be the only one really understanding what I mean.

BTW I didn't know that part about the force based stick interface. I always thought the position of the joystick was exactly the position of the virtual stick with all sliders at 100%.

At least that is what I see in the calibration window. But didn't know about that force based stick interface. It was new for me so thx for the explanation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Where did you learn this?

Learned it from Oleg-post in 2002 and worked out way more details and implications myself
through testing and observation. Fly offline just you with view moused so you can watch the
stick and a bit over the nose while you do simple steady flight regimes. Level flight,
climb, dive, sustained turns. Mess with the trim.

I also had a bit of a career programming/developing and interfacing was a sort of 'thing'
with me since 1980. Believe me when I say there are implications to the current system but
then there have been implications to every control interface of every PC sim ever made.
I've read from makers of two other realistic for their time sims who put an assitance factor
into their code just to try and make up for some of the unreality of the hardware and lack
of feel (IIRC in one it had to do with aircraft balance) but both were well done and what
they did was justified, not some kind of total crutch or cheat.

Interfacing is an ART and there's a lot of room for different kinds of art. The best thing
to do with any sim is to learn how the system works and approach it from there rather than
learn some way and jump into the sim expecting it to adapt. Whoever does the latter will
find things 'wrong' here and there without realizing they are using the sim wrong but it
only matters here and there. I learned finally in 98 to do that as a conscious effort which
for me was very late.

Calibration window is of course, force calibration.

Perhaps in a game readme or in the hard to read manuals there is something on the interface.

Just fly with the view down enough to see the stick, leave your FFB stick so it's flying
level and then wind in some pitch trim. Consider that your FFB stick position is as force
placed on the stick of the plane and that trim as in REAL does adjust where stick force
neutral will place the real controls.
Neutral force plus pilot force equals final position of the controls, AS REAL.
If you have flown anything different, please let me know!

WWMaxGunz
09-25-2006, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
That may well be true, but I also must make compromises. And I think it's a reasonably good compromise also. There is not always the need to fly the most energy efficient flightpath all the time as well.

I mean, if I could watch the ball and the bandit at the same time, I would trim the rudder more. But unfortunately I must choose and since I can't feel the plane sideslipping, I will keep my eye on the bandit or threat most of the time instead of on the slipball. It's a pity that we must choose, but I must make the choice for keeping the eye on the bandit, forgetting about rudder trim in that moment even though I may fly slower.

Besides, in during violent maneuvers it's hard to keep the slipball still and centered as well. And I can only guess because I never tested or tried it, but somehow I expect the speed difference between flying coordinated or not, at least in FB would be marginal.

Oh no. You don't want to use trim to keep the ball centered in a dogfight! Besides, how
you do that in planes with no rudder trim like the 109's?

You won't be perfect but with practice out of combat where you can watch the ball, you can
get to where you don't need to except now and then and still be close to very close just
by reflex.
And you NEED that if you're going to shoot straight and fly near the edge without losing
control and spinning out.

Far too many players don't train flying alone. They have 75% attention on something else,
usually the other guy so they miss learning good flying. The ones who learned and esp the
real pilots with real time just eat the others up in terms of performance. They had the
training and practice and they do more with the sim.

During violent maneuvers you are blowing E badly. I'd expect slip to cause a lot more loss
due to stalling but then even coordinated you can just pull too much stick and do that.
The difference is who would spin out sooner or at all. Someone who does fly coordinated
or nearly so and avoids crossing the line into stall though will probably get accused of
cheating by someone who does neither.

A LOT depends on how long you spend in those violent maneuvers, hard turns, etc. If the
people you fly with most all the time just rat-f__k around (DF dweeb mode) then you can
blow E and never know the difference. I have a hard time believing that SeaFire does tho!
In fact, I flat out CAN'T believe that SeaFire does that!

As for steady flight, your ability to put the stick in one spot and leave it there does
negate much of why the others need trim. Much but not all.

Look, be aware of not only the trim but the force-based aspect of the interface. When you
change speed and the backforce especially on pitch changes it does change the balance of
the plane. There is AOA not only of the main wings but also of the tail and speed of air
over both does change lift of both and does change center of lift. Really there is MUCH
to work out and learn and condition through practice and it differs between planes. Too
much really to type here but I try to give a head's up, these things matter more or less
depending on conditions of flight, plane, and what you might expect.

WWMaxGunz
09-25-2006, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie_:
I don't know what kind of joystick you use? Maybe one that goes back to the center when you let it go?

That is the centering force of the stick, not to be confused with the stickforce.

A joystick like that will have pressure on it to return to center when the airplane is sitting still on the runway and will have that same pressure when travelling 700kph.

But stickforce in a real plane is not like that. It will be very high at high speeds and very low at low speeds.

Really? I must have been hallucinating! In flight if I felt force on the column and let
go, the column would move to wherever it was trimmed for.

What kind of plane did you see different in?

And NO, I am NOT talking about sitting on the runway. You only get backforces in flight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry I mean to say what you wrote here only I can't say it so good in English http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif I mean that you only get stickforces in flight.

I don't know if the controls in a real airplane will center also like a joystick, but I think not.

All that I mean to say is that the backforce as you call it is a function of aircraftspeed and not a function of amount of stickdeflection (centering spring) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here you are not thinking through, but don't worry, you will (I hope).

Real plane if you let go of the stick when you can feel force on it (back force is control
surface force felt back through the linkages on the stick) then the stick will move to
wherever it is trimmed to. Neutral trim, it goes to design center. If the trim has been
moved then it will go to where it is trimmed to though even that is a force-force result
between trim and control surface but since the same air affects both... you see?

If I am flying along and pull the stick far back then the plane goes up until it runs down
the speed at least. If I let go of the stick then it moves itself back and eventually the
plane will stabilize where? To wherever I had it trimmed. It will fly along as before.

So wherever you position stick in IL2 series is relative to that trimmed position. And
since you like neutral trim you get that as a force. Go fast and watch the control stick
move but for a while it makes no big difference since faster air means less control makes
same effect. Not at or near the extremes though.

I think you have things to work out but your experience must increase or they mean nothing
to you. So... later!

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Treetop64:
Henkie, I think what TheGozr is saying is that if the wheels of a car are misaligned, the car will always want to pull in one direction or another, forcing the driver to forever apply a bit of opposite pressure on the steering wheel to keep the car going in the direction he wants it to go. If it were possible to actively adjust the alignement while driving to correct the handling of a car, then that would be the same as actively adjusting the trim to create the desired handling in an aircraft, thus reducing the workload for the pilot.

The is a focus on more of adjusting the plane's handling to fly the way you want it to, without having to constantly apply some opposite pressure on the controls themselves, just to point the machine in a certain direction which - at a minimum - can become quite annoying. This is not a focus on how much physical exertion it takes to actually fly the plane. Those are two complely different sets of dynamics that have their own place and relevance. Don't confuse the two.

Trim has a significant effect on the handling of the aircraft in the sim, Henkie, especially in cruising and in aiming while dogfighting. Again, become proficient in flying and shooting down what you're firing at, then compare the tasks in an aircraft that has trim adjustments (ie. P-47), and one that has none at all (ie. I-16), then come back and share your experinces.

Ok, if that is what Gozr means then I can tell him that even if I have to constantly push the joystick in 1 direction to fly in one direction, it costs me no trouble to do that.
I have zero joystickforce in any situation (high speed/zero speed and anything in between).
And the simulated stickforce that is dependant on airspeed I can't feel, so I would have no idea howmuch trim I will need to make that stickforce less.

And ok, if trim has a significant effect on handling in the sim, I haven't seen that effect yet because I always fly in neutral trim (only exception for rudder trim). What effect are you talking about exactly? (maybe I have an explanation for it further down)

I wouldn't know where to begin with trim, because as I said before I can't feel the stickforce to trim it away. To me it costs no trouble at all to put and hold the stick where I want it.

I mean, I play this sim since the IL2 days also and never had control troubles more than others with aiming and shooting.

What I read here in this thread is that a player trims for a certain speed and then remembers how man triminputs he needs where the plane can fly level and straight and with the stick in the center. (a lot of work!)

So he uses that e.g. for landing. He has trimmed for many different speeds and then remembers how much triminputs he needs for that certain speed. That is an approach I can understand. But it is not really trimming away the stickforce. It is using trim until the
stick can remain in the center for a certain speed to have the plane fly level and straight.

Now maybe a possible explanation for better handling with trim:

Some players use different sensitivities for the pitch/roll and rudder axis. Some use lower sensitivity near the center.

And I think that that is the reason why they find it more easy to control, their inputs have less impact near the center. And they use trim so that they can leave the stick closer to the center. But ofcourse this explanation about better handling is something that I can only guess.

In my case I have the sliders all on 100% so it doesn't matter for every deflection I get the same sensitivity. It's always the highest sensitivity, whether the stick is in the center or not. I play already like that since IL2 (without elevator/aileron trim) and have no big control problems.

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
And since you like neutral trim you get that as a force. Go fast and watch the control stick
move but for a while it makes no big difference since faster air means less control makes
same effect. Not at or near the extremes though.



I am not sure what exactly you mean... ?

Even if I go fast in a plane in FB and watch the control stick move in the cockpit, I don't get that as a force on my joystick?

Henkie_
09-25-2006, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Oh no. You don't want to use trim to keep the ball centered in a dogfight! Besides, how
you do that in planes with no rudder trim like the 109's?

You won't be perfect but with practice out of combat where you can watch the ball, you can
get to where you don't need to except now and then and still be close to very close just
by reflex.
And you NEED that if you're going to shoot straight and fly near the edge without losing
control and spinning out.

Far too many players don't train flying alone. They have 75% attention on something else,
usually the other guy so they miss learning good flying. The ones who learned and esp the
real pilots with real time just eat the others up in terms of performance. They had the
training and practice and they do more with the sim.

During violent maneuvers you are blowing E badly. I'd expect slip to cause a lot more loss
due to stalling but then even coordinated you can just pull too much stick and do that.
The difference is who would spin out sooner or at all. Someone who does fly coordinated
or nearly so and avoids crossing the line into stall though will probably get accused of
cheating by someone who does neither.

A LOT depends on how long you spend in those violent maneuvers, hard turns, etc. If the
people you fly with most all the time just rat-f__k around (DF dweeb mode) then you can
blow E and never know the difference. I have a hard time believing that SeaFire does tho!
In fact, I flat out CAN'T believe that SeaFire does that!

As for steady flight, your ability to put the stick in one spot and leave it there does
negate much of why the others need trim. Much but not all.

Look, be aware of not only the trim but the force-based aspect of the interface. When you
change speed and the backforce especially on pitch changes it does change the balance of
the plane. There is AOA not only of the main wings but also of the tail and speed of air
over both does change lift of both and does change center of lift. Really there is MUCH
to work out and learn and condition through practice and it differs between planes. Too
much really to type here but I try to give a head's up, these things matter more or less
depending on conditions of flight, plane, and what you might expect.

I guess if there is no rudder trim on planes like the 109,then pilots must use the normal rudder? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

For shooting, yes it's best to fly coordinated. But even if you're not far from the center, you can still shoot good.

And sometimes in a scissorfight it's nice if you can dump your energy quickly and let the other guy fly in front.

I agree that in a real plane there is trim nescessary. But in FB for me anyway I only use rudder trim and have been able to play without major problems like that since IL2. So can you understand me when I say that I am not so sure if trim is nescessary? or if I am missing much by flying in neutral trim?

WB_Outlaw
09-25-2006, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
I agree that in a real plane there is trim nescessary. But in FB for me anyway I only use rudder trim and have been able to play without major problems like that since IL2. So can you understand me when I say that I am not so sure if trim is nescessary? or if I am missing much by flying in neutral trim?

The trim tab simply moves the control surface just like the stick does so there will be no difference in performance between using the stick vs trim for keeping the aircraft from slipping.

Trim is no more "necessary" in a real aircraft than it is in the game (as long as your strength and endurance are up to the challenge). It only reduces stick forces (to zero hopefully). Now, if your stick/rudder has no center spring, then your stick forces are always zero. My stick has a center spring so to keep from having to lean on the stick/rudder all the time, I trim the aircraft to the desired attitude. That's all it's for, end of story.

Obviously you aren't going to see a need for trim b/c you have no stick forces. Also obviously, everyone that does have stick forces will see a need for trim.

There is nothing to argue about here.

--Outlaw.

WWMaxGunz
09-25-2006, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
And since you like neutral trim you get that as a force. Go fast and watch the control stick
move but for a while it makes no big difference since faster air means less control makes
same effect. Not at or near the extremes though.



I am not sure what exactly you mean... ?

Even if I go fast in a plane in FB and watch the control stick move in the cockpit, I don't get that as a force on my joystick? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You get it as force outcome on the controls which you can verify by seeing them move.
You set your stick up as a trick stick then fine but what you see should prove to you that
the interface is indeed force based and not 1:1 position.
Most of the time there is little consequence but don't let that blind you when there is
and then go blaming the flight model over what is between controls and your understanding.

WWMaxGunz
09-25-2006, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
I agree that in a real plane there is trim nescessary. But in FB for me anyway I only use rudder trim and have been able to play without major problems like that since IL2. So can you understand me when I say that I am not so sure if trim is nescessary? or if I am missing much by flying in neutral trim?

You can fly without it. You won't make best speed or climb however. And you won't know
until you use it under controlled conditions. It's the same with radiator control or prop
pitch or how much stick you pull for that matter as many players don't have a clue they are
in stall until they actually spin out. You can ignore much and as long as you compete with
people who are at the same level it won't matter.

Been with EAF long?

Philipscdrw
09-25-2006, 07:22 PM
I fly gliders sometimes. I hold the stick so the plane is flying at the right speed, and adjust the trim until the stick isn't pushing against my hand anymore. (With gliders, you normally fly with right hand on stick, and left hand on pitch-trim.) I fly in FB with exactly the same method.

Point the plane where you want it to point, then use the trimmer until you don't need to put force on the stick to keep the plane pointing that way.

Bearcat99
09-25-2006, 09:03 PM
Dont feed it and it wont grow.

Henkie_
09-26-2006, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
The trim tab simply moves the control surface just like the stick does so there will be no difference in performance between using the stick vs trim for keeping the aircraft from slipping.

Trim is no more "necessary" in a real aircraft than it is in the game (as long as your strength and endurance are up to the challenge). It only reduces stick forces (to zero hopefully). Now, if your stick/rudder has no center spring, then your stick forces are always zero. My stick has a center spring so to keep from having to lean on the stick/rudder all the time, I trim the aircraft to the desired attitude. That's all it's for, end of story.

Obviously you aren't going to see a need for trim b/c you have no stick forces. Also obviously, everyone that does have stick forces will see a need for trim.

There is nothing to argue about here.

--Outlaw.

Not entirely true.

The stickforces are not the same as the centering forces of the stick. They can not be the same because the stickforces depend on the airspeed. The centering forces (springforces) depend on the stickdeflection. i.e. the more you deflect your stick, the more force you will feel, but it has nothing to do with the stickforces that are simulated in the game, because you can't feel those forces.

That is the difference. Looks not like much difference but it's a principal difference.

Stickforces are modelled, but you can not feel them. The only time you see them is when you travel at very high speed an pull the joystick back to the max but the nose of the plane is not willing to come up.

Chuck_Older
09-26-2006, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Treetop64:
Henkie, I think what TheGozr is saying is that if the wheels of a car are misaligned, the car will always want to pull in one direction or another, forcing the driver to forever apply a bit of opposite pressure on the steering wheel to keep the car going in the direction he wants it to go. If it were possible to actively adjust the alignement while driving to correct the handling of a car, then that would be the same as actively adjusting the trim to create the desired handling in an aircraft, thus reducing the workload for the pilot.

The is a focus on more of adjusting the plane's handling to fly the way you want it to, without having to constantly apply some opposite pressure on the controls themselves, just to point the machine in a certain direction which - at a minimum - can become quite annoying. This is not a focus on how much physical exertion it takes to actually fly the plane. Those are two complely different sets of dynamics that have their own place and relevance. Don't confuse the two.

Trim has a significant effect on the handling of the aircraft in the sim, Henkie, especially in cruising and in aiming while dogfighting. Again, become proficient in flying and shooting down what you're firing at, then compare the tasks in an aircraft that has trim adjustments (ie. P-47), and one that has none at all (ie. I-16), then come back and share your experinces.

Ok, if that is what Gozr means then I can tell him that even if I have to constantly push the joystick in 1 direction to fly in one direction, it costs me no trouble to do that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you have a lot of misconceptions, and you just don't feel that anyone's input can be correct in light of your feelings


You take this example of a car, for example, and dismiss it as "no trouble"

Let's look at the car example a little bit, OK?

To you it may be "no trouble" to hold your sterring wheel at say, 10 o'clock position to go in a straight line. That's fine, you do not mind the effort

But what effect does it have on your performance in that car? You don't really think about this, you just look at your control input side, decide it's not a bother to you, and so therefore, it's not a thing that has an effect on anything but the vehicle's operator

Performance-wise, you are taking away from your potential in this case. Rolling resistance is a real thing. The way tires work to steer your car is that the carcass twists and in effect pulls the car to one side or the other. Did you know that? That tire twist is why you can steer so well?

In terms of stright line acceleration and ultimate top speed, the operator's effort is not really the problem. The problem is that you are, quite plainly, taking away from your performance output by attempting to make top speed with that car with the wheels out of alignment

If you and I have identical cars, we have identical reaction times, and are physically identical, and we drag race two identical cars, with the exception that your car's front wheels are out of alignment and my car's are perfectly aligned, then I will tend to beat you in a drag race. I have the advantage

You aren't looking very much past the operator's physical exertion in all of this. You need to look at what the machine is doing because of your inputs and why you're making those inputs

I've said it before, you use trim, I can't see your issues here. But you can fly the sim as you like, I just think you're dismissing an awful lot because you feel you have all the answers. In my opinion, you don't

Treetop64
09-26-2006, 05:57 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Dont feed it and it wont grow.

Yeah, no kiddin', huh... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The longer this goes on, the more I'm convinced this guy just wants to argue and have the last word.

That whole nasty thread on airplanes taking off from conveyers comes to mind...

-HH-Quazi
09-26-2006, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Dont feed it and it wont grow.

How can he stand anymore? As much relavent and viable information that has already been shared with this m8, he should be ready bust. I think he is just in it more now for arguments sake. He seems bright enough to grasp what these m8s, some of whom are real life pilots, are sharing with him. Yet he continues to be a non-believer. I guess he doesn't understand the difference between an arcade game and a flight simulation.

@ everyone trying to explain this to the OP:

Forget it.

LStarosta
09-26-2006, 06:15 AM
Hey Henkie, shove that flight stick up yer bum, and then you'll wish you had used trim. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WB_Outlaw
09-26-2006, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
Not entirely true.

The stickforces are not the same as the centering forces of the stick. They can not be the same because the stickforces depend on the airspeed. The centering forces (springforces) depend on the stickdeflection. i.e. the more you deflect your stick, the more force you will feel, but it has nothing to do with the stickforces that are simulated in the game, because you can't feel those forces.

That is the difference. Looks not like much difference but it's a principal difference.

Stickforces are modelled, but you can not feel them. The only time you see them is when you travel at very high speed an pull the joystick back to the max but the nose of the plane is not willing to come up.

I think we have a new raaaid.

Please point out where in my post I said the actual centering forces were identical, or even proportional to the virtual stick forces? All I said is that in game trim works exactly like real trim in that it reduces stick forces, both actual and virtual.

For example, with the in game trim I can trim the aircraft so that it flies straight and level without touching my X-52. I have just reduced my actual stick forces to zero. It doesn't matter that theX-52 forces are not identical or even proportional to the virtual stick forces. If I trim so that I only have to move my X-52 half the distance I did before, I have reduced my stick forces, just like I said.

Please learn English, and/or translate my post correctly, and/or actually read it before responding.

FEI, trimming an airplane will NOT "improve" performance in any way except insofar as it reduces stick/rudder forces. When you trim an aircraft, The trim tab DOES NOT supply the force required. The trim tab MOVES THE CONTROL SURFACE just like a force on the stick would do. In fact, if anything, a trim tab will DECREASE the performance versus moving the control stick because the trim tab produces aerodynamic forces opposite to what you want. For example, when you trim nose down, the trim tab moves UP. This forces the elevator to move down, but, the force from the trim tab wants to push the nose of the airplane UP a little bit. If you just used the stick to put the elevator in the right position, you would not have the nose up force from the trim tab, and thus less drag.

Note that this obviously only applies to aircraft that use a tab for trimming. Aircraft such as the 109 have adjustable horizontal stabalizers, not trim tabs.

--Outlaw.

WWMaxGunz
09-26-2006, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
The stickforces are not the same as the centering forces of the stick. They can not be the same because the stickforces depend on the airspeed. The centering forces (springforces) depend on the stickdeflection. i.e. the more you deflect your stick, the more force you will feel, but it has nothing to do with the stickforces that are simulated in the game, because you can't feel those forces.

That is the difference. Looks not like much difference but it's a principal difference.

Stickforces are modelled, but you can not feel them. The only time you see them is when you travel at very high speed an pull the joystick back to the max but the nose of the plane is not willing to come up.

You do miss one important point. No matter if you have springs or feedback or no feedback as
you have it set, the center point of where your joystick is represents zero force applied to
the control stick you see in the 3D cockpit.

And that zero force position is moved by trim.

So if you have springs then yes the spring force you feel is some sort of measure of how much
force you are putting against the control stick and NOT positioning by distance of movement
except as applied force you command versus backforce of the stick through the linkages to the
control surfaces, which CHANGE with speed. What we don't get with spring stick is feel of
backforces on the stick to know when the stickforce lessens. We have a pilot that always
pulls as much as our joystick says, does not hold the stick steady position escept against
steady backforce which is the one biggest problem with this form of interface. The other
way, position-based has perhaps a bigger problem so you live with one or the other due to
limits of the hardware. Keep your eyes on where the plane is going, know how the sim works
and it's not a killer problem.

I tell you that you can hold -any- joystick steady and watch the control stick in the 3D
cockpit move *depending* on maneuver and speed change. And what you keep saying will not
result in that.

Use of trim can as real allow a pilot to pull more control throw ==up to the physical limit
that the sick can physically move== where otherwise pilot strength allowed appx 50 lbs pull
would not be able to achieve as much deflection. You won't get more than full stick when
the plane is going slow but you can get more than one arm allows as real and noted in many
different accounts on many different planes. It is just a somewhat dangerous practice in
real but it was done. Reason it is dangerous in real is that trimming back takes a long time
and trimming up at very high speed you can get too much with no feel at all.

SeaFireLIV
09-26-2006, 08:41 AM
This isn`t the Henkie I know. OK, so I don`t know him all that well, (EAF is BIG) but I`ve flown with him and he`s a long time member of EAF. Not sure what`s going on here, but I`ll talk to him proper and see what`s happening.

I am EAF92PeaceMaker, henkie.

slight update:
274 is our dutch\belgium wing... need to learn my dutch. lol! Good thing he knows some English.

Henkie_
09-26-2006, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
FEI, trimming an airplane will NOT "improve" performance in any way except insofar as it reduces stick/rudder forces. When you trim an aircraft, The trim tab DOES NOT supply the force required. The trim tab MOVES THE CONTROL SURFACE just like a force on the stick would do. In fact, if anything, a trim tab will DECREASE the performance versus moving the control stick because the trim tab produces aerodynamic forces opposite to what you want. For example, when you trim nose down, the trim tab moves UP. This forces the elevator to move down, but, the force from the trim tab wants to push the nose of the airplane UP a little bit. If you just used the stick to put the elevator in the right position, you would not have the nose up force from the trim tab, and thus less drag.

Note that this obviously only applies to aircraft that use a tab for trimming. Aircraft such as the 109 have adjustable horizontal stabalizers, not trim tabs.

--Outlaw.

Ok, so basically flying without trim on planes with trimtabs is aerodynamically better then?

WB_Outlaw
09-26-2006, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
Ok, so basically flying without trim on planes with trimtabs is aerodynamically better then?

If, when you say, "without", you mean neutral then yes. I'm not going to go out on a limb and say it's a meaningful amount though, especially at the low speeds of IL-2 aircraft. The benefits of properly trimming the aircraft, especially at higher speeds, far outweigh any aerodynamic issues. The benefits of this are exhibited both in real life and in the game. The 109s excessive elevator forces at high speeds are a prime example of this. Another example is pulling the wings off a P-51. It is simple to do with neutral trim. Add a bit of up trim and it occurs at all speeds and all flight conditions, even when parked http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

--Outlaw

TheGozr
09-26-2006, 01:11 PM
Well for you henkie don't try to anderstand and trim in flight yet, You like it that way.. fine. get more flying time, have fun one day you may anderstand all. Peoples need easy targets online.

You still didn't answer my question.

Henkie_
09-26-2006, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by -HH-Quazi:
How can he stand anymore? As much relavent and viable information that has already been shared with this m8, he should be ready bust. I think he is just in it more now for arguments sake. He seems bright enough to grasp what these m8s, some of whom are real life pilots, are sharing with him. Yet he continues to be a non-believer. I guess he doesn't understand the difference between an arcade game and a flight simulation.

@ everyone trying to explain this to the OP:

Forget it.

No please...I am not in this for arguments sake.

For me FB is a game more than simulation. But it's a nice game.

Just because there is trim in the game doesn't mean that trim is simulated in a good way in the game. There is not much punishment for not using trim. And even if you don't fly perfectly coordinated it will not cost you much in this game.

If I am a non believer in trim in FB it's because I play this game from IL2 on without trim and doing very ok without it also. But it is also ok if you don't believe that.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Henkie_
09-26-2006, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
What we don't get with spring stick is feel of
backforces on the stick to know when the stickforce lessens.



What ever else you said your reply I can agree with WWMaxGunz.

But the point you said about what you don't get with trim in this game is not unimportant to me. I have been saying it many times in this thread.

We don't feel the stickforce (lessen or grow).

You say it yourself that it is the biggest problem with this kind of force based interface.

So despite all that was said in this thread I still would not know how anybody can trim away a force that you can not even feel?

I know that it is enough for most to have the stick in the center and then trim away until the plane is level and straight. I understand that 100% ofcourse. I fly straight and level just by pushing the stick a bit down and holding it there, next to centering the ball.

But I am talking more about the situations where the plane must not fly level and straight but do all kinds of different maneuvers quickly after eachother, pulling G's, rolling, turning, climbing diving at low to moderate speeds? (during dogfighting for example)

What do you do about trim then? Do you leave it neutral? Do you apply trim to counter a stickforce that you can not feel? Those are the situations that I am talking about because since this is a combat flight game, most of the time we don't want to be flying just straight and level.

Henkie_
09-26-2006, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
I've said it before, you use trim, I can't see your issues here. But you can fly the sim as you like, I just think you're dismissing an awful lot because you feel you have all the answers. In my opinion, you don't

I use only rudder trim to center the ball once and then leave it alone for the rest of the flight.

I am dismissing trim not because I think I have all the answers but because it just doesn't have such a big effect in the game. Maybe in a real plane it would be wrong not to trim

But I do without trim (elevator and aileron) because the game allows me to do it without much punishment.

Henkie_
09-26-2006, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie_:
Ok, so basically flying without trim on planes with trimtabs is aerodynamically better then?

If, when you say, "without", you mean neutral then yes. I'm not going to go out on a limb and say it's a meaningful amount though, especially at the low speeds of IL-2 aircraft. The benefits of properly trimming the aircraft, especially at higher speeds, far outweigh any aerodynamic issues. The benefits of this are exhibited both in real life and in the game. The 109s excessive elevator forces at high speeds are a prime example of this. Another example is pulling the wings off a P-51. It is simple to do with neutral trim. Add a bit of up trim and it occurs at all speeds and all flight conditions, even when parked http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

--Outlaw </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I meant neutral http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I agree that at high speeds some planes will have very high stickforces/bad elevator response. Luckily I don't have to fly those planes, but that is indeed another exception that I make. If I must fly at those high speeds and in those planes, then yes, I will trim the elevator. But to be honest it will be very very rare for me to be in that situation.

BTW do you mean that you can pull the wings off the P51 on the runway ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Henkie_
09-26-2006, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
I fly gliders sometimes. I hold the stick so the plane is flying at the right speed, and adjust the trim until the stick isn't pushing against my hand anymore. (With gliders, you normally fly with right hand on stick, and left hand on pitch-trim.) I fly in FB with exactly the same method.

Point the plane where you want it to point, then use the trimmer until you don't need to put force on the stick to keep the plane pointing that way.

Thx that is a good explanation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But how do you do it in the game when you are in a close range knifefight? How do you trim then? That is what I am curious about. In the ever changing conditions during a dogfight is there enough time to trim until you don't feel the joysticks springforce anymore?

WB_Outlaw
09-26-2006, 09:12 PM
Originally posted WB_Outlaw:
BTW do you mean that you can pull the wings off the P51 on the runway ?

Just a little sarcasm there. Spend a few minutes in a P-51 and you'll know why.


Originally posted by Henkie_:
But how do you do it in the game when you are in a close range knifefight? How do you trim then? That is what I am curious about. In the ever changing conditions during a dogfight is there enough time to trim until you don't feel the joysticks springforce anymore?


The whole concept of trim is to make it easier to cruise. Of course, there are often very short "cruises" in combat and since combat often results in drastic speed changes, depending on the situation, trim helps. I have trim mapped to the slider on my X-52 and yes, there is time to change the trim in a dogfight. That's not very realistic though b/c it takes much longer in real life to adjust trim on MOST of the aircraft in IL-2. As I said before, the trim condition changes with speed, so, as long as your speed is the same, you won't need to keep changing the trim settings.. If I lose a lot of speed during a fight I will add some up trim but I usually don't continuously change the trim with an occasional exception as detailed below.

Some people believe that trim is a cheat b/c they think it allows you to pull harder turns without stalling. This is true, but it's not a cheat. It's because we have a limited number of positions our joystick can return. An 8 bit stick only has 256 different positions. A 10 bit stick like the X-52 has 1024. So, with an 8 bit stick at a linear position/force situation (all sliders at 100%), our 50 pounds is divided into 0.391 pound increments each way. So, if you are pulling 0.25 pounds from the stall point, if you go one more notch on the stick you will stall. If, however, you trim up a bit, you can reduce the stick force required to reach the edge by 0.25 pounds, thus riding the very edge of the stall without changing the position of your stick.

This is not necessarily totally unrealistic b/c there is a minimum amount of force required to overcome the static friction in the control system of a real airplane, but I will be the first to say that's stretchin' it a bit.

--Outlaw.

WWMaxGunz
09-27-2006, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
What we don't get with spring stick is feel of
backforces on the stick to know when the stickforce lessens.



What ever else you said your reply I can agree with WWMaxGunz.

But the point you said about what you don't get with trim in this game is not unimportant to me. I have been saying it many times in this thread.

We don't feel the stickforce (lessen or grow).

You say it yourself that it is the biggest problem with this kind of force based interface.

So despite all that was said in this thread I still would not know how anybody can trim away a force that you can not even feel? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you feel, as I have tried to explain, is the amount of force the pilot places on the
stick away from center. That strength is regulated by the position of the stick and works
the same for every stick including yours.

In steady flight, pilot pulls with some amount of strength that is countered by force back
from control surfaces. As long as the two stay the same, control stick stays in one position.
But say the plane is slowing down. Now the back force from surfaces lessens. If our joystick
is held steady then as the back force lessens while the pilot continues to apply same strength
then the control stick and surfaces move which btw in may cases is something we want, but not
always. It is good to know what is happening, how the system works, to make intelligent
responses under all conditions and not just some or most.

So we have the feel of the strength applied but not the feel when backforces become less
UNLESS we have working FFB as FFB and not FFB stick running in special way. In other words,
you have the stick that lets you get the full feel both ways and instead you turn it off both
ways which... I won't say, it is your joystick and your experience to have. You miss even
more than I do with spring-stick.


I know that it is enough for most to have the stick in the center and then trim away until the plane is level and straight. I understand that 100% ofcourse. I fly straight and level just by pushing the stick a bit down and holding it there, next to centering the ball.

You don't understand because you don't use trim and never flew. You hold the plane level and
start tapping trim in while you ease up on the stick just fast enough to keep the nose level.
That is how you know when you have put in enough trim, you are not holding the stick off
center and the plane is flying however you set it for, in this case level but it works for
controlled steady climb and dive as well. Do it right and it is closer to real than any
other way that other sims I have used ever worked.
I did say that position-based does have problems as well that are bigger and I mean that.
To understand that though, first you have to understand how both work in dynamic sense.


But I am talking more about the situations where the plane must not fly level and straight but do all kinds of different maneuvers quickly after eachother, pulling G's, rolling, turning, climbing diving at low to moderate speeds? (during dogfighting for example)

What do you do about trim then? Do you leave it neutral? Do you apply trim to counter a stickforce that you can not feel? Those are the situations that I am talking about because since this is a combat flight game, most of the time we don't want to be flying just straight and level.

Neutral is trimmed for cruise. If the combat will be fought around cruise speed then yes
I would hit trim neutral keys which BTW are very unreal due to the speed at which they work.

Ordinarily since 4.0 I will add some nose up when I expect to exit at lower speed and then
add more after I see how much more I need. The thing I avoid is holding trim down and then
waiting to see where it gets to. Maybe I put it onto a rotary and I have visual on how
much I set in which with keys is not possible.

If you don't want to use trim then don't. Nobody twists your arm. But if you want to discuss
WHY to use trim then expect people will tell you WHY. There is no reason to turn this into a
debate or worse over should trim be used at all is there? Or perhaps that is what you want?
You have your special trick stick so just go with that.

Henkie_
09-27-2006, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
The whole concept of trim is to make it easier to cruise. Of course, there are often very short "cruises" in combat and since combat often results in drastic speed changes, depending on the situation, trim helps. I have trim mapped to the slider on my X-52 and yes, there is time to change the trim in a dogfight. That's not very realistic though b/c it takes much longer in real life to adjust trim on MOST of the aircraft in IL-2. As I said before, the trim condition changes with speed, so, as long as your speed is the same, you won't need to keep changing the trim settings.. If I lose a lot of speed during a fight I will add some up trim but I usually don't continuously change the trim with an occasional exception as detailed below.

Some people believe that trim is a cheat b/c they think it allows you to pull harder turns without stalling. This is true, but it's not a cheat. It's because we have a limited number of positions our joystick can return. An 8 bit stick only has 256 different positions. A 10 bit stick like the X-52 has 1024. So, with an 8 bit stick at a linear position/force situation (all sliders at 100%), our 50 pounds is divided into 0.391 pound increments each way. So, if you are pulling 0.25 pounds from the stall point, if you go one more notch on the stick you will stall. If, however, you trim up a bit, you can reduce the stick force required to reach the edge by 0.25 pounds, thus riding the very edge of the stall without changing the position of your stick.

This is not necessarily totally unrealistic b/c there is a minimum amount of force required to overcome the static friction in the control system of a real airplane, but I will be the first to say that's stretchin' it a bit.

--Outlaw.

Ok, so trim is mainly for cruising then. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But what you said about being able to turn harder with trim without stalling it doesn't sound very realistic to me.

In any case in that situation that you described, you assume that the stickforce is equal to the 50 pounds?

I ask it, because already long time ago, I tried for myself if adding more elevator trim would make me turn faster or not. I found it didn't make me turn faster at those lower dogfighting speeds. Adding more trim only made the plane more uncontrollable when rolling out of a turn.

At higher speeds, yes it will make you turn faster, but this is more in the BnZ fighting speeds, high speed attacks followed by long extensions. pulling high G's trying to turn faster is usually not something a BnZ-er will often want to keep doing.

But whether we fly at high or lower speeds, there is always the question of not knowing if the stickforce is bigger or lower than the 50 pounds that the pilot can pull. We do not know it. We can not feel it. This is the big problem with trim for me. I can not tell the exact moment when my pilot is not strong enough to pull the elevator back to where it must be, I can only guess.

At least with rudder trim you can have some indication if the trim is off.

I guess that at lower speeds, the pilot is plenty strong to fight the stickforces. He can ofcourse trim elevator up in a turn, but at low speeds it will not help him turn any faster than without that elevator up trim, because he's already strong enough to pull max. elevator.

(BTW Why would you add up trim when you lose a lot of speed?)

WWMaxGunz
09-27-2006, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
Some people believe that trim is a cheat b/c they think it allows you to pull harder turns without stalling. This is true, but it's not a cheat. It's because we have a limited number of positions our joystick can return. An 8 bit stick only has 256 different positions. A 10 bit stick like the X-52 has 1024. So, with an 8 bit stick at a linear position/force situation (all sliders at 100%), our 50 pounds is divided into 0.391 pound increments each way. So, if you are pulling 0.25 pounds from the stall point, if you go one more notch on the stick you will stall. If, however, you trim up a bit, you can reduce the stick force required to reach the edge by 0.25 pounds, thus riding the very edge of the stall without changing the position of your stick.

Really it is simpler than that. If you have sliders increasing from left to right then the
more stick you pull, the coarser your control becomes. Using the default sliders, that .391
lb increment is much less than .391 lb for the forst 10% of the joystick throw. And the next
bit from 10% to 20% is more, etc. So you pull back at 80% and that bit commands a lot more
pilot strength to make up for all the fine control near center, see?

Enter the trim. You are flying along fast and trimmed nose-down then pull into your turn
onto target. You have to pull more force to overcome the nose-down and you are into the
tiny bit of movement gets more change area of the stick right there. With no trim you
don't have the full extra to pull but with a lot of trim you can now control from half
pull or less and you have the fine control you need. Without trim you can't do that.
I read from Bud Anderson that is also waht he did, surprise!

I don't think of it as cheating. I think of it as the extra control you would get by using
TWO HANDS on the stick instead of ONE that is reaching a limit. It's about the hardware
and the limits of the system. With trim as modelled, we can use both arms. And we can
also stall and even pull wings off, and it's gotten worse since 4.0.

Henkie_
09-27-2006, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
So we have the feel of the strength applied but not the feel when backforces become less
UNLESS we have working FFB as FFB and not FFB stick running in special way. In other words,
you have the stick that lets you get the full feel both ways and instead you turn it off both
ways which... I won't say, it is your joystick and your experience to have. You miss even
more than I do with spring-stick.



Well I will say that I sometimes miss the FFB effects. I always liked the FFB. But in my case, I hate the centering force more than I like the force feedback effects.

I don't know if there is a centering force in real control sticks in real ww2 planes (I doubt it), but in any case I disabled the centering force. For me it is a force that is not needed nor wanted.

Unfortunately so far, with my stick I haven't found a way to fly with FFB but without centering force. You may call it a trick stick, but for me it's not because I didn't want the forcefeedback, but because I absolutely didn't want the centering.

But you spoke about problems with position based interface. Even if you feel I have no understanding of the force based interface, can you still explain the problems with position based interface pls?

WB_Outlaw
09-27-2006, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
I don't know if there is a centering force in real control sticks in real ww2 planes (I doubt it), but in any case I disabled the centering force.


You're kidding right? There must be a huge language barrier here. At least as bad as raaaid's.

--Outlaw.

kit_lg2002
09-27-2006, 06:24 AM
Hi all, maybe what i will ask is OT but still....
I use trim but rarely, not because i don't want but i can't figure where to put the the rudder trim and the elevator trim.
I use an x45 and on the two rotarys i have prop pitch and aileron trim.
Anyone has some ideas???

Breeze147
09-27-2006, 06:32 AM
We need trim because Oleg says we do.

p-11.cAce
09-27-2006, 06:56 AM
Trim is not just for cruising! Trim does one thing and one thing only - it configures the aircraft to maintain a specific speed and descent, level, or climb attitude with neutral controls. The reduction in stickforce, pilot workload, etc is all secondary. In rl and in the sim a properly trimmed aircraft flies dar more precisely...partially from coordination of controls and partially from the improved resolution of control inputs.
Give this a try: Hop in an Emil and climb to 2000M and get your airspeed to around 280 knots. Kick out your flaps all the way to landing, open the rads, and get the gear down. Throttle to around 40% and pick a non moving object on the ground - big house, road intersection, end of a runway; that is just below your line of sight when level. Now push forward on the stick so that stationary object is centered in your gunsight. Note the amount of forward stick you are holding to maintain that descent angle. Ok now start dialing in some nose down trim - keep the object centered in your sight! - and stop adding trim when your stick is centered again. At this point you have reconfigured the aircraft to fly at this angle and speed. Why is this helpful? Well first off you would generally use this on a landing approach - performing what in rl is termed a "stabalized approach" - your airspeed and rate of descent are now locked in (well in rl wind and turbulence can skew you around but its worse if your also holding in significant nose down stick)and you can divert more attention to watching for traffic, working the radio, etc. As you near the runway threshold you start cranking in some nose up trim to slow your rate of descent and approach speed, while leaving the stick centered to deal with minor inputs to correct for gusts or turbulence - if you are holding in a control input already you will have less leverage with which to correct. Once over the threshold throttle back, settle into a flare, and get rid of any remaining nose down trim so you don't have to fight it if you go around.
Anyway - this is how I was trained to use trim in rl...not as a means to get rid of stick forces (though it does), but as a sort of "autopilot" to lock the plane in at specific speeds and attitudes so it requires less attention to control.

WB_Outlaw
09-27-2006, 07:05 AM
I should have used the term, "steady state flight" instead of cruise, my bad.

--Outlaw.

joeap
09-27-2006, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
Trim does one thing and one thing only - it configures the aircraft to maintain a specific speed and descent, level, or climb attitude with neutral controls.

QFT really should be in our sigs or something.

bienenbaer
09-27-2006, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
Trim is not just for cruising! Trim does one thing and one thing only - it configures the aircraft to maintain a specific speed and descent, level, or climb attitude with neutral controls. The reduction in stickforce, pilot workload, etc is all secondary. In rl and in the sim a properly trimmed aircraft flies dar more precisely...partially from coordination of controls and partially from the improved resolution of control inputs.
Give this a try: Hop in an Emil and climb to 2000M and get your airspeed to around 280 knots. Kick out your flaps all the way to landing, open the rads, and get the gear down. Throttle to around 40% and pick a non moving object on the ground - big house, road intersection, end of a runway; that is just below your line of sight when level. Now push forward on the stick so that stationary object is centered in your gunsight. Note the amount of forward stick you are holding to maintain that descent angle. Ok now start dialing in some nose down trim - keep the object centered in your sight! - and stop adding trim when your stick is centered again. At this point you have reconfigured the aircraft to fly at this angle and speed. Why is this helpful? Well first off you would generally use this on a landing approach - performing what in rl is termed a "stabalized approach" - your airspeed and rate of descent are now locked in (well in rl wind and turbulence can skew you around but its worse if your also holding in significant nose down stick)and you can divert more attention to watching for traffic, working the radio, etc. As you near the runway threshold you start cranking in some nose up trim to slow your rate of descent and approach speed, while leaving the stick centered to deal with minor inputs to correct for gusts or turbulence - if you are holding in a control input already you will have less leverage with which to correct. Once over the threshold throttle back, settle into a flare, and get rid of any remaining nose down trim so you don't have to fight it if you go around.
Anyway - this is how I was trained to use trim in rl...not as a means to get rid of stick forces (though it does), but as a sort of "autopilot" to lock the plane in at specific speeds and attitudes so it requires less attention to control.

A question from an aviation enthusiast without a pilot license (=noob):

Is this what one calls "trimming out for landing"? I always thought that meant to trim for flaring shortly before touchdown, such that the aircraft settles down on the ground in a stable manner (=without pulling/pushing the stick), either on two-wheels or three pont attitude.

An answer was appreciated, thanks,
bienenbaer

p-11.cAce
09-27-2006, 08:31 AM
Yes - I think that would be an accurate way to describe it. Basically what you want to have happen is to get the control forces as small as possible so that you have better "resolution" of your inputs. For example - imagine that in order to write with a certain pen you have to apply 15 pounds of pressure against the paper. How do you think this will affect your ability to write properly? Can you make beautiful fine letters or only rough ones? I think you would find that your ability to create fine letters would be significantly reduced. If, however, you write with a pen which requires almost no pressure against the paper you can write very fine and accurate letters. I call this "improved input resolution" - it is easier to make fine adjustments.
Trimming out for landing in my mind is the trim transition you make just before or during the flare when you get rid of the nose down trim you usually carry down the final approach (which usually helps you enter the flare) so you don't have to fight the nose down influence if you have to go around.

bienenbaer
09-27-2006, 08:36 AM
Thanx!

WWMaxGunz
09-27-2006, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
Yes - I think that would be an accurate way to describe it. Basically what you want to have happen is to get the control forces as small as possible so that you have better "resolution" of your inputs. For example - imagine that in order to write with a certain pen you have to apply 15 pounds of pressure against the paper. How do you think this will affect your ability to write properly? Can you make beautiful fine letters or only rough ones? I think you would find that your ability to create fine letters would be significantly reduced. If, however, you write with a pen which requires almost no pressure against the paper you can write very fine and accurate letters. I call this "improved input resolution" - it is easier to make fine adjustments.
Trimming out for landing in my mind is the trim transition you make just before or during the flare when you get rid of the nose down trim you usually carry down the final approach (which usually helps you enter the flare) so you don't have to fight the nose down influence if you have to go around.

This is a very fine explanation and it is real life! It also shows why trimming for turns
allows better control to approach but not cross into stall, ie 'the edge', that better combat
pilots did use to beat others.

Here is a link to Bud Anderson's autobiography chapter where in the middle he does describe
trim use during combat as a regular thing:

Bud Anderson -- find words trim wheel (http://www.cebudanderson.com/ch1.htm)

Crash_Moses
09-27-2006, 12:06 PM
Ooh! Ooh! Mista Kotta! Mista Kotta!

Holy wah! Once again I agree 100% with Chuck...

But that aside (and despite the 19# springs on my joystick) as an official bomber dude I couldn't accomplish my mission without trim. I can hit a jeep at 20,000ft in my B-25 (as long as we're bragging) and that would be impossible without trim.

And I won't even mention strafing. Well...okay...I'll mention it. Despite her fortitude ol' Bessy hates to make more than one pass at those pesky machine gun nests. Elevator trim is absolutely necessary to keep her nose from bobbing all over the place while I walk those tracers in...

So...regardless of personal preference, differences in hardware, and realism settings, try hauling a big heavy bomber around the virtual skies without trim and see what happens...(no, seriously...try it...you'll never go back to fighters...Banzai!)

S!

beefy1966
09-27-2006, 12:14 PM
some of you might like to fly with henkie , he ain't so easy to shoot down , in fact getting the sights onto him is bloody hard
eaf602 alan

WWMaxGunz
09-27-2006, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
Well I will say that I sometimes miss the FFB effects. I always liked the FFB. But in my case, I hate the centering force more than I like the force feedback effects.

I don't know if there is a centering force in real control sticks in real ww2 planes (I doubt it), but in any case I disabled the centering force. For me it is a force that is not needed nor wanted.

You still don't get what I wrote TWICE? In real aircraft the stick will seek to return to
the position it has been trimmed to. No doubt. Stick may be moved freely and when you
move it away from trim-center you can feel it push against your hand -- let it go and it
will move back. That is real! If it were not then flying would never have gotten as far
as it did by 1920, possibly 1910! Flying would still be an interesting and suicidal hobby!

I tell you yet again, center position of your joystick is wherever trim is centered at.
Position of your joystick tells how much STRENGTH is applied away from that center.
Forget this idea that real control stick has some absolute center. There may be a measurable
center between limits of stick motion but that is only trim for cruise position center.
And that is real planes. Ones without trim put the pilot at disadvantage as outlined,
and that is also real.

The main strength of the force based system is in the inherent realism and feel. With
FFB you get both sides of that, with spring sticks you get only one side and with FFB
turned off you get like old 60's full power steering with no feel but hey you can steer
the vehicle even if you can't feel when the tires are about to slide.


Unfortunately so far, with my stick I haven't found a way to fly with FFB but without centering force. You may call it a trick stick, but for me it's not because I didn't want the forcefeedback, but because I absolutely didn't want the centering.

Are you refusing to think or even try? Or are you holding on to the old ways so hard you
cannot?


But you spoke about problems with position based interface. Even if you feel I have no understanding of the force based interface, can you still explain the problems with position based interface pls?

Position based interface allows for no limits of pilot strength. If it is modified for that
then even by cruise speed you will pull stick all the way back and just what? Up to some
point the surfaces will move but beyond pilot strength will you be unable to move your
joystick? Maybe FFB can stop you? Spring stick, no way and you won't even know except
by no change in what you see over the nose unless of course you stall and how do you know
just where that happened unless you noticed as it happened? That is how most sims I have
flown before worked, btw.
Now go ahead and THINK how trim maps onto that. None of the old sims I had had trim is
all I can tell you. But it could be done and still full joystick movement would have
areas that mean NOTHING once speed got... for many planes even 200mph would do it!

You need to spend more time learning what is real to have the information enough to really
think on this and not just reflect and reflex. I am not joking. The strength based system
is closer to real and allows more realistic modelling of flight control. It is thought out
in an engineering manner, not some simple one to one function as positional control was.
That way was fine for fly-by-wire or hydraulic jet systems but for WWI & WWII it is not.

WWMaxGunz
09-27-2006, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by beefy1966:
some of you might like to fly with henkie , he ain't so easy to shoot down , in fact getting the sights onto him is bloody hard
eaf602 alan

Oh. Then trim is bad?

WWMaxGunz
09-27-2006, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Breeze147:
We need trim because Oleg says we do.

Another player with not much idea what is real.

One goal of the sim is increased REALISM. The trim, the whole way the controls work are
a good part of that goal. They are more REALISTIC than the older ways.

p-11.cAce
09-27-2006, 12:24 PM
I am sure that he is an accurate shot - even in rl a pilot could chose to not trim the aircraft and still be a great pilot. I beleive that trim used properly makes it easier to fly and shoot with better accuracy - and bombing is not practical without the use of trim to stabalize the aircraft in both speed and altitude - but you could, with effort and practice, become proficent without trim.

Xiolablu3
09-27-2006, 12:34 PM
Question about trim :-

If I trim the rudder a little one way to make the plane fly straight, then will this slow the top speed slightly becasue the plane is not flying its 'natural' course?

I always thought that maybe that tiny bit of rudder input added when trimmed will actually slow the plane a little.

p-11.cAce
09-27-2006, 12:50 PM
If you don't trim out that sideslip you will fly slower - becasue the entire side of the aircraft will be angled into the airstream as opposed to just a tiny rudder deflection. Whenever the ball is off center the aircraft is actually flying at a slight angle to the airflow. This can actually be very beneficial when you need to burn off excess altitude quickly without increasing your airspeed - its called a foward slip. You kick the rudder hard one direction and apply enough opposite aileron to maintain your heading (the nose of the plane will be pointed well off the actual direction of flight) - this exposes the side of the aircraft to the slipstream and acts an airbrake allowing a steep descent without an increase in airspeed. When you get back on glide slope you relax the cross control and return to coordinated flight.
*** this is also a great way to rapidly bleed off speed and cause a pursuing aircraft to overshoot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Throttle back - full left rudder and right aileron - a little fwd stick so they shoot over - throttle up and your back on their 6.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_(aerodynamic)

mrsiCkstar
09-27-2006, 01:01 PM
heh

"you're gonna do what?!" - Goose

WWMaxGunz
09-27-2006, 08:16 PM
When you fly with slip your thrust is also at an angle to the direction of flight so you
lose some of your forward thrust vector.

You don't have to trim rudder to fly straight. It just keeps you from walking in circles
later which is what Galland and others joked about Hartmann staying with the 109's.

Henkie_
09-28-2006, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Forget this idea that real control stick has some absolute center.


You mean as opposed to the absolute center with joysticks?

Because I already abandoned a very long time ago the idea that a JOYSTICK must have an absolute center. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You say yourself that in a real aircraft the control will return to where it has been trimmed to, but compared to the joystick this will NOT be always the SAME ABSOLUTE CENTER. In your own words, "forget this idea that a real control stick has some absolute center".

FYI I always had the idea that a real control stick would NOT move back to an absolute center. I knew that it would move to where you trimmed it at but that would not nescessarily be always an absolute center.

And there is the big difference with joysticks. Because with joysticks with their centering springs it will ALWAYS be the same exact center no matter what. They are designed and built that way to move back to center position.

That is the difference. But for me, that difference is a principal difference. If the real control stick doesn't return to an absolute center, then the joystick shouldn't either. Ofcourse it should return to the position to where it is trimmed at, but that position must not be always the exact same absolute center.

Henkie_
09-28-2006, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
If you don't trim out that sideslip you will fly slower - becasue the entire side of the aircraft will be angled into the airstream as opposed to just a tiny rudder deflection. Whenever the ball is off center the aircraft is actually flying at a slight angle to the airflow. This can actually be very beneficial when you need to burn off excess altitude quickly without increasing your airspeed - its called a foward slip. You kick the rudder hard one direction and apply enough opposite aileron to maintain your heading (the nose of the plane will be pointed well off the actual direction of flight) - this exposes the side of the aircraft to the slipstream and acts an airbrake allowing a steep descent without an increase in airspeed. When you get back on glide slope you relax the cross control and return to coordinated flight.
*** this is also a great way to rapidly bleed off speed and cause a pursuing aircraft to overshoot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Throttle back - full left rudder and right aileron - a little fwd stick so they shoot over - throttle up and your back on their 6.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_(aerodynamic)

Yes, but think of the masses of the virtual 109 and 190 pilots out there. They have been flying without rudder trim from basically the beginning of these series. To fly with ball centered they must use rudder. They can not trim the rudder. And I doubt that many use rudder to center the ball all the time.

In any case, much in the same way that 109 pilots must do without rudder trim, I will play the game without trim. I use just the primary controls. I have done this since the beginning of the IL2 serie. I make only a couple of exceptions: I will use rudder trim to center the ball in planes that have it. But I only use it once and leave the rudder trim alone then. And the second exception is when I must fly at very high speed and suddenly pull a hard turn. But that hardly ever happens.

I am sure there are some other planes in the planeset without (rudder) trim. So ofcourse, for owners with a cougar joystick or at least one with very heavy centering springs, then it will be harder to fly the I16 or I153. But these planes can only be flown without trim.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Really, it's fine with me that players want to insist that trim is nescessary. But for me it's something that is overrated in the game.

Henkie_
09-28-2006, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
I am sure that he is an accurate shot - even in rl a pilot could chose to not trim the aircraft and still be a great pilot. I beleive that trim used properly makes it easier to fly and shoot with better accuracy - and bombing is not practical without the use of trim to stabalize the aircraft in both speed and altitude - but you could, with effort and practice, become proficent without trim.

To be honest, for me it's exactly the other way around, it takes less effort to become proficient without trim in the game.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif In real life I wouldn't know, but I am only talking about the game here.

E.g. in a dogfight where the speeds and attitudes change quickly, it would be impossible for me to know how much elevator trim I would need. I would have to guess. I would have no time at all to look at the ball to see if I would fly without sideslip.

So it's a lot easier to forget about trimming then and fly neutral trim always. Playing only in neutral trim keeps the game simple. Even for those long stretches of flight. How hard is it to fly level and straight with just the stick compared to constantly adjusting trim until you really can let the stick go? And while you were trimming for straight and level flight only for the purpose of flying handsfree, maybe you forgot to scan around and missed the bandit stalking you. Then when he blows your teammate away, you have to grab the stick again anyway.

Really I understand from all of you that in a real plane it would be almost impossible to fly good without trim. But in the game, it's not only possible but also in many cases, less complicated.

p-11.cAce
09-28-2006, 06:43 AM
But in the game, it's not only possible but also in many cases, less complicated.
That is true - however for some of us (myself included) the "complications" are what make the sim fun. Its far less complicated to fly without complex engine managment, never ending ammo and fuel, unrealistic takeoff and landing, WW view, speedbar, mini map paths, and arcade bullet arrows. I flew (almost) that way back in 2001. If anyone still flies that way and has a blast in the sim great - Oleg has worked to make this sim accesable to many different types of players and thats why it has been so successful.
However, there is only one accurate way to fly in this sim as close as it can get you to rl, and thats full switch and following rl procedures. A player flying full switch and utilizing the controls as intended in rl (regardless of the obvious issues with current interface technology and ability of home pc's to simulate flight) will experience what I believe is the best wwII sim available and the closest approximation to rl.
Every argument you have made regarding the differences between a joystick interface and rl controls are true - and hopefully someday a better interface will be developed.

Philipscdrw
09-28-2006, 08:07 AM
I use trim in FB in nearly exactly the same way as I use trim in a glider.

In a glider, on the downwind leg, I trim the aircraft for approach speed. To do that, I push the stick forwards, the nose drops, the aircraft accelerates to 55kts which is the approach speed. So I need to hold the stick forward to keep the plane at that speed, but the airflow over the elevators is trying to push the stick back. So, I use the trim to hold the stick forward so I don't need to push on it to stay at 55kts. If I move the stick and let go of it, it will go back to the forward position where the aircraft flies at 55kts.

It's nearly exactly the same with a non-FFB PC stick. Push the stick forwards, trim nose-down while gradually centring the stick until you don't need to push on the stick to keep the nose at the right angle.

In practice, if i.e. the nose keeps wandering upwards, making me climb and decelerate, I'll trim nose-down a bit until it stays roughly level. Then, when I'm looking over my shoulder for other planes, the plane is going to keep doing what I want it to do.

Lets see if I can video this working in practise... stand by...

WWMaxGunz
09-28-2006, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Forget this idea that real control stick has some absolute center.


You mean as opposed to the absolute center with joysticks?

Because I already abandoned a very long time ago the idea that a JOYSTICK must have an absolute center. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You say yourself that in a real aircraft the control will return to where it has been trimmed to, but compared to the joystick this will NOT be always the SAME ABSOLUTE CENTER. In your own words, "forget this idea that a real control stick has some absolute center".

FYI I always had the idea that a real control stick would NOT move back to an absolute center. I knew that it would move to where you trimmed it at but that would not nescessarily be always an absolute center.

And there is the big difference with joysticks. Because with joysticks with their centering springs it will ALWAYS be the same exact center no matter what. They are designed and built that way to move back to center position.

That is the difference. But for me, that difference is a principal difference. If the real control stick doesn't return to an absolute center, then the joystick shouldn't either. Ofcourse it should return to the position to where it is trimmed at, but that position must not be always the exact same absolute center. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that is where you miss the understanding. The center position of my joystick is only
***wherever the control stick is trimmed to*** BECAUSE the center position of my joystick
===IS=== wherever there is zero force on the real control stick. My joystick is force-based,
not position based as I keep telling you. And I mean that completely and not in some half
way sense. You have to let go of your old-way understanding because it gets in your way to
learn the new and different.

Once again: Center position of my joystick is relative same to zero force position of the
control stick and that does change with trim and the system taken AS IT IS, is more realistic
overall even if you can show places it is not realistic. 70% is more than 50% even if 70%
is less than 100%.

You want to argue about it then at least take the time to learn the full thing. It only took
me a couple weeks on and off working through and testing to get most of it including why the
other way is less good. And there are implications both ways that are real Lulus totally
due to the limits of the hardware.

Oh well. The reason you haven't gotten quick easy answers is because you haven't 'gotten'
the quick easy answers at all. You are like someone who says "I don't see the elephant."
while looking in the opposite direction that the people telling you "Look at the elephant.".
I am sure that if you manage to take your mind off what you think is so then you can see
what is being told to you.

You don't have to change how you play, if that's the problem.

WOLFMondo
09-28-2006, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by Breeze147:
We need trim because Oleg says we do.

Nah. We do because every airplane manual says we do. Or your plane won't fly right.

Check out the Corsair training vid at Zenos warbirds. Its got a nice bit on the trim required for take off.

WOLFMondo
09-28-2006, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
[
Oh well. The reason you haven't gotten quick easy answers is because you haven't 'gotten'
the quick easy answers at all. You are like someone who says "I don't see the elephant."
while looking in the opposite direction that the people telling you "Look at the elephant.".
I am sure that if you manage to take your mind off what you think is so then you can see
what is being told to you.

You don't have to change how you play, if that's the problem.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Best thing I've read all day.

MEGILE
09-28-2006, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
Centre the ball for better acceleration..less drag. Especially important for planes like the P-51 wihich will fly with the ball off center.

If you have an X45 rudder, its a pain to coordinate flight constantly while cruising.

Yes I do rudder trim to center the ball, but I do that only for cruising. I center the ball for max. power and then leave it there.

Do you adjust rudder trim during aircombat also? Or during turns? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

nope... too busy firing. Trim for cruise, and make adjustments manually.

Philipscdrw
09-28-2006, 08:47 AM
There's a slip-ball on the P-51D5 and P-63C gunsights for a very good reason - so you can keep balanced while firing!

It'd be nice if more planes had that feature.

WWMaxGunz
09-28-2006, 09:37 AM
Yeah but... isn't it easier and way more sensible to just use the rudder pedals or stick
twist than try and constantly trim the rudder? You know? Hehehe... use the primary control
when the situation is constantly changing? Rudder pedals in real, you use both legs and
not just one arm, sometimes two. You can push against the seat back. Sure, trim for your
general speed by feel but how exact does it have to be unless you want to fly feet off?

Anderson wrote about constantly using trim but that's not how he controlled the plane!

How does someone go to lengths to not use trim for pitch and then mostly ignore the rudder?
Well, I guess after many years of sims where it made very little if any difference it could
get to be a habit. It certainly did not matter so much in IL2 series before 4.0. There was
benefit to using rudder in turns and what but no great loss if most of the time not.
And it shows in the number of "something's wrong" threads and posts... boy does it show.

I dunno bout Henkie but I BnZ (with Icons on so the bogies don't vanish while I watch)
with high closing speed and start firing 300-400m out with convergence set to 250 since
a high delta-V effectively shortens the range. I don't slow down since that's the best
way I know to get nose bob. If I've got more than very small slip then my shots miss
for the most part. It doesn't take a lot of hits with decent deflection if you can get
the nose to cockpit. And yeah, I wish that all the planes had that ball under the gunsight
that the P-51's do. Or that on-screen bottom center there could be a graphic to make up
for the lack of feel sitting in a chair that's not flying.

Oh well.

Henkie_
09-28-2006, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
And that is where you miss the understanding. The center position of my joystick is only
***wherever the control stick is trimmed to*** BECAUSE the center position of my joystick
===IS=== wherever there is zero force on the real control stick. My joystick is force-based,
not position based as I keep telling you.

I have no misunderstanding there, really. I know that you consider the center position of your joystick the "trim center". It's just that I don't agree that the absolute joystick center should be the trim center. That is the difference.

If trim is modelled in the game then I must at ALL times (not just for level flight, but more importantly during the aircombat sessions) know exactly how much and when to apply which trim. Or else it is more guesswork. Something that we have to mess around with, just for messing around with because real pilots do it too. Right now I see the whole trim thing more as fiddling with something that doesn't bring much benefit for the pilot other than the feeling that he is doing something that real pilots do. Maybe that alone is enough for some players and I can understand that and that is ok too, but then I will do as I do now: play without trim.

I mean, if it were really nescessary to use trim in the game, then the game should really punish me in terms of very much degraded performance. But as it stands I can keep up with the rest pretty good.

For example, if I have the ball not centered 100% it's really ok to me too. I am not too bothered about that. I mean, which virtual 109 pilot is going to be stepping on his rudder all the time just to keep that ball centered? I think 99% of the 109 pilots fly not coordinated. And the 109's are not even the only planes without rudder trim.

The game will not punish them too much for that in terms of a lot less performance or much lesser accuracy. On the contrary I find that many 109 pilots are very accurate.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In real planes maybe yes trim would make a big difference, but I am only talking about the game here. It's after all still only a game.

Henkie_
09-28-2006, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But in the game, it's not only possible but also in many cases, less complicated.
That is true - however for some of us (myself included) the "complications" are what make the sim fun. Its far less complicated to fly without complex engine managment, never ending ammo and fuel, unrealistic takeoff and landing, WW view, speedbar, mini map paths, and arcade bullet arrows. I flew (almost) that way back in 2001. If anyone still flies that way and has a blast in the sim great - Oleg has worked to make this sim accesable to many different types of players and thats why it has been so successful.
However, there is only one accurate way to fly in this sim as close as it can get you to rl, and thats full switch and following rl procedures. A player flying full switch and utilizing the controls as intended in rl (regardless of the obvious issues with current interface technology and ability of home pc's to simulate flight) will experience what I believe is the best wwII sim available and the closest approximation to rl.
Every argument you have made regarding the differences between a joystick interface and rl controls are true - and hopefully someday a better interface will be developed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope so too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Because then I will no doubt use trim.

But I understand what you mean and you make a valid argument to use trim. I welcome those complications too, but for me it's also important that I see some benefit from trim or (engine management) if I am going to use it.

To be honest, in the beginning I really tried trim just to see what it brought, but I came to the conclusion that whether or not I used it, it didn't make any difference to me. So ever since, I stopped trimming, setup my joystick the way I have and I haven't really felt any disadvantage from it. But to me FB is more a game than a simulation. And I play it as a game.

WWMaxGunz
09-28-2006, 06:07 PM
If these things, esp slip, didn't matter in real life then the weight of such controls
would not be added to the planes and the pilots would ignore them. But they do and the
pilots did use them.

In the sim these things always matter but if you fly as a poorly trained rookie with only
the same then there will be no relative difference. Perhaps the occasional better flier
doesn't impinge past the mental blinkers, I just don't know.

Some people sim for the experience and some are just hack gamers.

WWMaxGunz
09-28-2006, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
I have no misunderstanding there, really. I know that you consider the center position of your joystick the "trim center". It's just that I don't agree that the absolute joystick center should be the trim center. That is the difference.

You admit no misunderstanding. Absolute joystick center is not position of control stick.
It is not meant to be. That is not how the system works. Joystick is about strength applied
and center position of joystick is zero strength applied. Where that moves the control stick
is not at all. So wherever the control stick is trim centered, that is where the joystick
center equals ---on the control stick, not the joystick---. Joystick is only force.

Why keep getting stuck on joystick center must be some absolute control stick position to be
'right'? That is wrong thinking for this system. That is positional joystick interface way,
not force based joystick way.

In real flying we hold the stick so the plane is flying how we want it to stay and then we
trim while feeling the stick pressure ease up on our hands or feet. We don't have to trim
exactly either. A pilot with a lot of practice in a plane knows about how many turns it
will take but not exactly and that does not matter. It is about FORCES not POSITIONS.

And the sim is about realism.

WB_Outlaw
09-28-2006, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
If trim is modelled in the game then I must at ALL times (not just for level flight, but more importantly during the aircombat sessions) know exactly how much and when to apply which trim. Or else it is more guesswork.

This is way beyond a totally stupid statement. Give me ONE reason why a pilot, real or sim, must know at ALL times exactly how much trim to apply?



Originally posted by Henkie_:
Something that we have to mess around with, just for messing around with because real pilots do it too. Right now I see the whole trim thing more as fiddling with something that doesn't bring much benefit for the pilot other than the feeling that he is doing something that real pilots do.

As I said before, I trim so I don't have to lean on the stick/rudder all the time. Also, as I have said before, you removed the springs from your stick so you don't have the need to trim. So OBVIOUSLY you don't care about trimming b/c you "TRIM" WITH YOUR ZERO FORCE STICK. I, like most others, don't have a zero force stick. What is it about the above statements you don't understand?


Originally posted by Henkie_:
I mean, if it were really nescessary to use trim in the game, then the game should really punish me in terms of very much degraded performance.

Also another stupid statement. Give me ONE good, or even a bad, reason why you should be "punished" with very much degraded performance for flying uncoordinated.


Originally posted by Henkie_:
For example, if I have the ball not centered 100% it's really ok to me too. I am not too bothered about that. I mean, which virtual 109 pilot is going to be stepping on his rudder all the time just to keep that ball centered? I think 99% of the 109 pilots fly not coordinated. And the 109's are not even the only planes without rudder trim.

When I fly 109s, which is almost 100% of my IL-2 time, I am on the rudder the entire time I am out of the small speed/power range at which the 109 is trimmed in yaw/roll.



Originally posted by Henkie_:
The game will not punish them too much for that in terms of a lot less performance or much lesser accuracy. On the contrary I find that many 109 pilots are very accurate.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Once again, totally stupid. If I fire rounds on a trajectory that will bring them in contact with the target, why should it matter if I'm trimmed or not? Do you believe that in real life, some magic force will "punish" pilots by making the rounds miss just b/c I fired them from an aircraft that was flying uncoordinated. The only difference between shooting while coordinated versus uncoordinated is the aim point.



Originally posted by Henkie_:
In real planes maybe yes trim would make a big difference, but I am only talking about the game here. It's after all still only a game.

Maybe? You don't even know yet you are arguing the point. You should change the caption under your avatar to read, "raaaid is my hero".

--Outlaw.

WWMaxGunz
09-29-2006, 07:10 AM
If you fly with slip then you fly with increased drag.

If you shoot with slip then your bullets will have a sideways vector relative to the aiming
point.

Let him fly without trim and all sliders at 100%. Realism of controls is up to the user and
necessary due to different hardware and limits of that. He is unable to see the advantages
of trim or it appears of flying coordinated (which will make a plane appear as if it is turning
when it is not, a valid *short term* tactic when being closely chased) so that is that.
Disadvantage of all sliders at 100% is no fine control but I had done fine that way myself.

Without stick that holds itself exact in place most anyone will not get as steady control
inputs and will not make the best speed even if the plane is flying straight. This has been
true since the start. I can't say it works the way Henkie does it either if he also says
that flying with slip makes no matter. But it is his computer, his copy of the sim and his
time so he can fly however he wants.

Henkie_
09-30-2006, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie_:
I have no misunderstanding there, really. I know that you consider the center position of your joystick the "trim center". It's just that I don't agree that the absolute joystick center should be the trim center. That is the difference.

You admit no misunderstanding. Absolute joystick center is not position of control stick.
It is not meant to be. That is not how the system works. Joystick is about strength applied
and center position of joystick is zero strength applied. Where that moves the control stick
is not at all. So wherever the control stick is trim centered, that is where the joystick
center equals ---on the control stick, not the joystick---. Joystick is only force.

Why keep getting stuck on joystick center must be some absolute control stick position to be
'right'? That is wrong thinking for this system. That is positional joystick interface way,
not force based joystick way.

In real flying we hold the stick so the plane is flying how we want it to stay and then we
trim while feeling the stick pressure ease up on our hands or feet. We don't have to trim
exactly either. A pilot with a lot of practice in a plane knows about how many turns it
will take but not exactly and that does not matter. It is about FORCES not POSITIONS.

And the sim is about realism. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

(sorry I couldn't answer sooner)

To me the absolute joystick center must not be the same as the position to where the stick must return for the set trim. So I am not stuck on joystick center to be some absolute control stick position at all. For me it's the opposite really. The joystick should return to where the trim was set. And this must NOT always be the absolute center postion.

I don't care how the interface is, force or position based, as long as we can tell when we need trim. If trim must be modelled, and if we can't feel the stickforces, then we must have some other way of feedback about the stickforces. And not just when flying straight and level but also in the dogfight and flying at very high speeds.

The absolute joystick center position together with centering springs, for me is useless. When flying straight and level, using primary flightcontrols only, the joystick is not in the center anyway. It would be nice if it could be returning to the position that it was trimmed at (off center). But that would mean that I would be able to feel the stickforce instead of the centering springforce. And there is no way to feel that stickforce.


The centering force for me is not simulating anything. If it must simulate the force applied it's not accurate at all. I said it before, when sitting on the runway or flying at 700kph, that centering force will be always the same. Dependant on stickdeflection, not on airspeed. When flying at 800kph the stickforce must be very high, maybe my virtual pilot is unable to move the control stick, but how will I know that in time when I will still be able to give maximum joystick deflection? The centering force is simply not a good simulation for me it's too limited for that.

In the situations where the virtual pilot is not strong enough, I can see the need for trim, because it then really helps to use trim to help move the control surfaces. In all the other situations I will be strong and not at all tired to move the control surfaces myself.

That is what I mean when I said that I want to know at all times exactly when and how much trim I need. If I am going to be using trim in the game, I need to know exactly when my pilot needs trim to help move the control surfaces and when not.

Henkie_
09-30-2006, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie_:
If trim is modelled in the game then I must at ALL times (not just for level flight, but more importantly during the aircombat sessions) know exactly how much and when to apply which trim. Or else it is more guesswork.

This is way beyond a totally stupid statement. Give me ONE reason why a pilot, real or sim, must know at ALL times exactly how much trim to apply?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, maybe it's stupid for you, but I will give you a reason why I would want to know exactly when to use trim and how much in the game.

When the stickforce is too big for my virtual pilot I want to know it the moment it happens so I can put in some elevator or aileron trim. Not too much, not too less. Just enough to be able to move the control surfaces to how much I need to move them.

Maybe this is unimportant to know for you, but for me this is one of the rare situations that I will want to use trim.

One difference between the real and the virtual pilot is that a real pilot can feel the stickforce, I can not feel the virtual stickforces in the game not even if I play the game with a stick with cougar centering springs.

So if I am going to use trim, I want to know when exactly I will need it and how much.

For you it's maybe stupid to have some feedback about how big the stickforce is in relation to the virtual pilot strength, but for me it's not. For me, feedback about the virtual stickforce would be the only reason why I would use trim.

Henkie_
09-30-2006, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie_:
I mean, if it were really nescessary to use trim in the game, then the game should really punish me in terms of very much degraded performance.

Also another stupid statement. Give me ONE good, or even a bad, reason why you should be "punished" with very much degraded performance for flying uncoordinated.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't give you one reason really, because I never noticed much degraded performance in the game while flying without trim.

But basically this is what people in this thread who say that trim is nescessary have been saying. They can climb faster, fly faster, turn faster, shoot with more accuracy etc. etc. because they trim as opposed to players like me, who don't use trim. I never noticed the big difference which is why I don't use trim.

And about you flying 109's with rudder to center the ball, I guess you belong to the 1% who use the primary control to center the ball. Congratulations. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

WWMaxGunz
09-30-2006, 10:44 AM
There's a LOT of us in that 1% you just don't know, never met.
Guys don't by good pedals just to not use em. Sorry.
The guys I know best fly better than I do in general. But they spent enough time in real
cockpit careers to have very good practices and know better by look and feel if they are
flying straight. They trim for the speed they are at plus climb or dive.

If I trim for straight and level flight HANDS-OFF the springy-joystick then where is the
joystick position going to be? Physical joystick will be at physical stick hands-off center.
Control stick in 3D view is at the place your trim moved it to from neutral.

Without touching my joystick, while watching the control stick in the 3D view, I give pitch
up key 4 taps and the control stick in the 3D cockpit moves while my joystick does not.
If I pull my joystick back after the trim finishes its delay action then I can watch the
control stick graphic move in response to joystick input -- from the position that the trim
had first mved it. Where was it? Let go of the joystick and the control stick will return
to trim center pretty quickly.

That is how the interface works, was designed to work. The pressure on my fingers from the
joystick springs is direct analog (although much weaker) of how hard the pilot is pulling
or pushing the control stick, thus FEEL.
Make of it what you will.

Henkie_
09-30-2006, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
There's a LOT of us in that 1% you just don't know, never met.
Guys don't by good pedals just to not use em. Sorry.
The guys I know best fly better than I do in general. But they spent enough time in real
cockpit careers to have very good practices and know better by look and feel if they are
flying straight. They trim for the speed they are at plus climb or dive.

If I trim for straight and level flight HANDS-OFF the springy-joystick then where is the
joystick position going to be? Physical joystick will be at physical stick hands-off center.
Control stick in 3D view is at the place your trim moved it to from neutral.

Without touching my joystick, while watching the control stick in the 3D view, I give pitch
up key 4 taps and the control stick in the 3D cockpit moves while my joystick does not.
If I pull my joystick back after the trim finishes its delay action then I can watch the
control stick graphic move in response to joystick input -- from the position that the trim
had first mved it. Where was it? Let go of the joystick and the control stick will return
to trim center pretty quickly.

That is how the interface works, was designed to work. The pressure on my fingers from the
joystick springs is direct analog (although much weaker) of how hard the pilot is pulling
or pushing the control stick, thus FEEL.
Make of it what you will.

Well congratulations to you too and all the other 109 pilots out there who fly with ball centered using rudder. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

But this example also shows me that in the game there is always the option of just using primary flightcontrols to achieve the same effect as trim controls.

(Except when the stickforces become too high for the pilots strength)

VFA-195 Snacky
09-30-2006, 06:25 PM
The trim in this sim is garbage and has been since the introduction of the BOB flight models. The real aircraft are much more stable than this sim would have you believe. Planes like the P51 were a hands free plane. meaning from the neutral position the aircraft was already trimmed. The P51 has a "twist" built intot he airframe which counteracted torque and allowed the aircraft to fly straight at a certain power setting without any use of rudder trim. In this sim it's all over the place. Many of the aircraft are all over the place. There are real WWII vets on the web that do not like the new and improved flight models and choose to fly other sims because of it. Sounds like a gripe and it is, but I think people whined and cried until the sim was tweaked past realistic and is now too far the other way.
Not sure if any other patches will be released anytime soon, but the trim thing has killed it for me.

p-11.cAce
09-30-2006, 07:31 PM
Planes like the P51 were a hands free plane. meaning from the neutral position the aircraft was already trimmed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Bud Anderson:
It was crucial to keep it it trim but, as we gained experience with the plane, that became automatic. We sensed it was special, even before we measured it against what the enemy pilots were flying.
"Flying Miss America" http://www.warbirdaeropress.com/articles/MissA/MissA.htm

I leveled off and asked for some nose down and left rudder trim. I saw that any change in power or airspeed would require some rudder trim; it was sensitive to that.....After some trimming, I was flying nose high in slow flight. There isn€t any visibility over the front, so we flew it with reference to the horizon out the side. We made some turns and I kept my airspeed and altitude by adding small amounts of power. The rudder was effective and the ailerons were definitely not. It occurred to me this is a place where a low time Mustang pilot could get into a lot of trouble....After coaxing the airplane through some turns, I added power to recover from slow flight, Lockwood brought up the flaps and landing gear and retrimmed. Trim. Trim. Trim. This is a no-kidding trim airplane. Keep it trimmed, and it will fly nicely. Get out of the ballpark, and your workload and control forces will rise dramatically. Gee that does'nt sound like a hands off plane to me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif And this from someone who has BEEN THERE!

WB_Outlaw
09-30-2006, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie_:
If trim is modelled in the game then I must at ALL times (not just for level flight, but more importantly during the aircombat sessions) know exactly how much and when to apply which trim. Or else it is more guesswork.

This is way beyond a totally stupid statement. Give me ONE reason why a pilot, real or sim, must know at ALL times exactly how much trim to apply?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, maybe it's stupid for you, but I will give you a reason why I would want to know exactly when to use trim and how much in the game.

When the stickforce is too big for my virtual pilot I want to know it the moment it happens so I can put in some elevator or aileron trim. Not too much, not too less. Just enough to be able to move the control surfaces to how much I need to move them.

Maybe this is unimportant to know for you, but for me this is one of the rare situations that I will want to use trim.

One difference between the real and the virtual pilot is that a real pilot can feel the stickforce, I can not feel the virtual stickforces in the game not even if I play the game with a stick with cougar centering springs.

So if I am going to use trim, I want to know when exactly I will need it and how much.

For you it's maybe stupid to have some feedback about how big the stickforce is in relation to the virtual pilot strength, but for me it's not. For me, feedback about the virtual stickforce would be the only reason why I would use trim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your original statement says nothing about you "wanting" to know how much trim to use. You put a REQUIREMENT on the existence of trim being modeled in the game. That requirement being that at ALL times you must know how much trim to use. Show me ANY pilots handbook ANYWHERE that shows EXACTLY how much trim to use at ALL times. There are many variables involved, down to the quality of the people who built that individual aircraft. It's an impossible and stupid requirement.


--Outlaw

WB_Outlaw
09-30-2006, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
But basically this is what people in this thread who say that trim is nescessary have been saying. They can climb faster, fly faster, turn faster, shoot with more accuracy etc. etc. because they trim as opposed to players like me, who don't use trim. I never noticed the big difference which is why I don't use trim.

And I have said more than once that those people are wrong.



Originally posted by Henkie_:
But this example also shows me that in the game there is always the option of just using primary flightcontrols to achieve the same effect as trim controls.

(Except when the stickforces become too high for the pilots strength)

Well DUH!!!!!! Have you read ANY of my posts?

--Outlaw.

Henkie_
09-30-2006, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie_:
If trim is modelled in the game then I must at ALL times (not just for level flight, but more importantly during the aircombat sessions) know exactly how much and when to apply which trim. Or else it is more guesswork.

This is way beyond a totally stupid statement. Give me ONE reason why a pilot, real or sim, must know at ALL times exactly how much trim to apply?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, maybe it's stupid for you, but I will give you a reason why I would want to know exactly when to use trim and how much in the game.

When the stickforce is too big for my virtual pilot I want to know it the moment it happens so I can put in some elevator or aileron trim. Not too much, not too less. Just enough to be able to move the control surfaces to how much I need to move them.

Maybe this is unimportant to know for you, but for me this is one of the rare situations that I will want to use trim.

One difference between the real and the virtual pilot is that a real pilot can feel the stickforce, I can not feel the virtual stickforces in the game not even if I play the game with a stick with cougar centering springs.

So if I am going to use trim, I want to know when exactly I will need it and how much.

For you it's maybe stupid to have some feedback about how big the stickforce is in relation to the virtual pilot strength, but for me it's not. For me, feedback about the virtual stickforce would be the only reason why I would use trim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your original statement says nothing about you "wanting" to know how much trim to use. You put a REQUIREMENT on the existence of trim being modeled in the game. That requirement being that at ALL times you must know how much trim to use. Show me ANY pilots handbook ANYWHERE that shows EXACTLY how much trim to use at ALL times. There are many variables involved, down to the quality of the people who built that individual aircraft. It's an impossible and stupid requirement.


--Outlaw </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not talking about some pilot handbook, I am talking about the game. To have some kind of easily visual feedback when the virtual stickforce is bigger than my virtual pilots strength.

The requirement to know the virtual stickforce in relation to the pilot strength is stupid to you, but to NOT know it in the game is stupid to me. Because I will/must use trim in the situations where the virtual stickforce will be bigger than my virtual pilot strength. Else I will not be able to move the control surfaces.

Henkie_
09-30-2006, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie_:
But basically this is what people in this thread who say that trim is nescessary have been saying. They can climb faster, fly faster, turn faster, shoot with more accuracy etc. etc. because they trim as opposed to players like me, who don't use trim. I never noticed the big difference which is why I don't use trim.

And I have said more than once that those people are wrong.



Originally posted by Henkie_:
But this example also shows me that in the game there is always the option of just using primary flightcontrols to achieve the same effect as trim controls.

(Except when the stickforces become too high for the pilots strength)

Well DUH!!!!!! Have you read ANY of my posts?

--Outlaw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok then....

Sorry I think I skipped all of your posts.

Don't worry I will go back and see if I can read them again ok? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

gkll
10-01-2006, 04:40 AM
WWMaxGunz said

And yeah, I wish that all the planes had that ball under the gunsight
that the P-51's do. Or that on-screen bottom center there could be a graphic to make up
for the lack of feel sitting in a chair that's not flying.

Oh well.

Absolutely. Better yet would be the indicator you propose, or simplest, just give us the 'ball' you see in WW, stick it over the gunsight center. Bad form by 1c to give us a nice little FM that is sensitive to rudder (well 401 and 2 anyways....) and then withhold the feedback we need to take advantage. Unless you're in WW. Which I never am.

WWMaxGunz
10-01-2006, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by VFA-195 Snacky:
The trim in this sim is garbage and has been since the introduction of the BOB flight models. The real aircraft are much more stable than this sim would have you believe. Planes like the P51 were a hands free plane. meaning from the neutral position the aircraft was already trimmed. The P51 has a "twist" built intot he airframe which counteracted torque and allowed the aircraft to fly straight at a certain power setting without any use of rudder trim. In this sim it's all over the place. Many of the aircraft are all over the place. There are real WWII vets on the web that do not like the new and improved flight models and choose to fly other sims because of it. Sounds like a gripe and it is, but I think people whined and cried until the sim was tweaked past realistic and is now too far the other way.
Not sure if any other patches will be released anytime soon, but the trim thing has killed it for me.

That twist that counteracts torque has been standard since back when they trimmed a plane it
was called rigging and was done by twisting the wings and fuselage if need by by tightening
cables. You got rigged to run certains ways at certain speeds.

Funny part is the twist doesn't change but the propwash it deals with does so the twist is
no all-speeds solution. Note also that the P-51 does have all axes trimmable from the cockpit.
Bf-109 also has tailplane with some angle and washout and the other same tricks except the
thinner wing with the not-quite laminar airflow and slats that the P-51 does not have, and
that 109 rudder has no controllable trim. There is a tab that is sometimes bent a little
with pliers and left set for a certain speed. Anywhere near that speed, it was less work on
the legs. At high speeds, the pilot got a workout. He couldn't trim his rudder.

Oh man you been reading too many fanboy sites and comic books!

Bud Anderson Chapter 1 (http://www.cebudanderson.com/ch1.htm)

"With so much power, you were continually making minor adjustments on the control to keep then
Mustang and its wing-mounted guns straight.
There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up
for hands-off level flight. ... Your left hand was down there a lot if you were shanging speeds,
as in combat...while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the
rudder pedals and hour hand on the stick.
It's a little unnerving to think about how many things you have to deal with all at once to fly
combat."

There's a man who flew em and he ain't sayin what you are!

Henkie_
10-01-2006, 07:57 AM
I agree 100% with that what gkll wrote

If trim is modelled in the game, then we must have some form of good feedback of how we must trim or else it's just going to be guessing how to trim.

The force based interface with joystick centering springs is not giving enough feedback to know how much trim we need to be able to move the control surfaces at high speed.

The slipball indicator in some planes is too low to be able to see it while looking out of the cockpit. It's a pity, because if we had good (visual) feedback of all of that, then I would certainly trim all the time.

(But does the no cockpit view have a slipball indicator then?)

WWMaxGunz
10-01-2006, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by gkll:
WWMaxGunz said
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> And yeah, I wish that all the planes had that ball under the gunsight
that the P-51's do. Or that on-screen bottom center there could be a graphic to make up
for the lack of feel sitting in a chair that's not flying.

Oh well.

Absolutely. Better yet would be the indicator you propose, or simplest, just give us the 'ball' you see in WW, stick it over the gunsight center. Bad form by 1c to give us a nice little FM that is sensitive to rudder (well 401 and 2 anyways....) and then withhold the feedback we need to take advantage. Unless you're in WW. Which I never am. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I'd probably crash. Tried for little while once but really did not like the feel.
It's worse than external.

WW of WWMaxGunz is not that WW.

gkll
10-01-2006, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
I agree 100% with that what gkll wrote

If trim is modelled in the game, then we must have some form of good feedback of how we must trim or else it's just going to be guessing how to trim.

The force based interface with joystick centering springs is not giving enough feedback to know how much trim we need to be able to move the control surfaces at high speed.

The slipball indicator in some planes is too low to be able to see it while looking out of the cockpit. It's a pity, because if we had good (visual) feedback of all of that, then I would certainly trim all the time.

(But does the no cockpit view have a slipball indicator then?)

Sort of... what it has is better. The roving ball is the vector your plane is headed, the gunsight center is where your nose is pointed. My suggestion (to the 'improvements to the sim...) thread over in ORR is to put this on the pit on view. Some view nazis immediately responded with the usual line 'real planes had no such indicators, use the ball on the dash etc etc', however this criticism misses the point that we need feedback we will never have via g force etc. And you can't be checking the ball on your dash when in the midst of violent manuevers...

Yeah Max I know the WW doesn't stand for Wonder Woman.

WB_Outlaw
10-01-2006, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
I am not talking about some pilot handbook, I am talking about the game. To have some kind of easily visual feedback when the virtual stickforce is bigger than my virtual pilots strength.

The requirement to know the virtual stickforce in relation to the pilot strength is stupid to you, but to NOT know it in the game is stupid to me. Because I will/must use trim in the situations where the virtual stickforce will be bigger than my virtual pilot strength. Else I will not be able to move the control surfaces.


We do have visual feedback, it's called the horizon, the sky, and the ground. Those visual cues are sometimes known as "outside" (with "inside" being the cockpit). If, at high airspeed, your stick inputs are not causing the attitude of the aircraft to change, then you have reached the limit. It's simple. Even better, spend 20 minutes doing some high speed maneuvers in the aircraft and learn how it responds at various speeds. It's simple.

As far as slip goes, have you tried practicing? You make it sound like our virtual aircraft are on plastic sheeting covered in lube oil in a tornado. It's just not that hard to maintain coordinated flight. If you're banked at 45 degrees, YOU NEED SOME RUDDER. If you're banked at 75, you need MORE RUDDER. Once again, do a little bit of testing while watching the ball to get a feel for the aircraft. If, after that, you need to stare at the ball to maintain some semblance of coordination, then you aren't cut out for this game, or you need to practice a bit.

Also, a quick glance down at the ball just isn't that big of a deal, I do it all the time in combat.

Regardless of all this, your original post has been answered many times...


Originally posted by Henkie_:
Is it that we only "need" trim so that we can let the joystick in the centerposition to fly handsfree?

The answer to this is "NO", although, we do "need" trim for that reason. Another reason is to lessen the stick forces at high speed.



Originally posted by Henkie_:
I never use trim in the game and I can fly for hours if I want without my arm getting tired. Even on long flights I don't want to fly handsfree anyway. (Well to be honest I only use rudder trim to put the ball in the center, but that's it. I put it once and forgetabout it, because it's undoable and not practical to keep looking at the ball.)

You saw a "need" to reduce the force you apply to your joysitck. You removed the springs to solve your problem. I use the trim to solve the same problem. Your solution, however, does not solve the problem of stick forces at high speed. Mine does.

While it would be nice to have physical feedback, it ain't gonna happen until we have a direct interface into our brain. I do just fine using the visual cues we already have and so can anyone else.

--Outlaw.

[edit]
Actually, I did build a physical feedback device for G-forces using devicelink, a microcontroller, and a servo. Unfortunately, we don't have that information while flying online so other than a quick test, I didn't move ahead with it.

Henkie_
10-01-2006, 03:03 PM
Fair enough

Ofcourse I use the visual feedback of the horizon sky and ground and as far as slip goes I can see it also a bit when the plane is totally not flying correct. Then I adjust with rudder trim if the plane has it.

Maybe in real life you can feel the aircraft sideslipping so for that, maybe it is not too much to ask for more visual feedback than we have now, where we don't have any physical feedback. Basically, visual feedback is the only feedback we have in the game.

About watching the ball, I never have time to watch the ball in the combat area. For me it's more important to watch other things then. But if I could watch the threat and at the same time get some direct visual feedback about the plane flying coordinated or not, then ofcourse I would use that feedback. Why not? But I am just not going to look away from the threats only to see if the ball is in the center.

And about the way I setup my stick. I didn't so much see a need to reduce the force. I just didn't see the need for any centering force that makes the stick return to the exact same absolute center everytime. I don't like the centering force because the centering force is not dependant on airspeed, but only on stickdeflection, it tells me nothing about the virtual stickforces.

So yes because I can't "feel" the virtual stickforces, I will never know the exact moment when the stickforces are too big for my pilots strength at high speed, but so will everybody else whether they trim or not.

But I found a very simple way to bypass that problem even without having to use trim.

leitmotiv
10-01-2006, 03:15 PM
I think trimming is a bit of a fetish perhaps encouraged by the civilian pilots who use this sim and who are accustomed to operating by FAA rules. The father of a friend of mine who flew Hellcats from carriers in WWII said they never used trim tabs except on long-range flights across country in the U.S.A. Otherwise they flew in neutral trim with their canopies open, gloves on, and goggles down. I use elevator trim constantly, but I simply do not have the time to be fiddling with trim for ailerons and rudder in the middle of a fracus. As for the elevator trim---often I find fiddling with it to get everything in balance causes me to be distracted from my number one job which is to focus on the enemy and fight. I believe I was more effective when I flew with all tabs in neutral and compensted with pedals and stick.

LStarosta
10-01-2006, 03:59 PM
I use it to improve my plane's stability which improves my high speed aerial gunnery. It's an issue for me because I have a twist stick.

It's a lot easier to walk lead onto someone when you aren't fighting your own airplane.

p-11.cAce
10-01-2006, 06:55 PM
I think trimming is a bit of a fetish perhaps encouraged by the civilian pilots who use this sim and who are accustomed to operating by FAA rules. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
OK one more time since it was miised -

"Flying Miss America" http://www.warbirdaeropress.com/articles/MissA/MissA.htm

quote:
I leveled off and asked for some nose down and left rudder trim. I saw that any change in power or airspeed would require some rudder trim; it was sensitive to that.....After some trimming, I was flying nose high in slow flight. There isn€t any visibility over the front, so we flew it with reference to the horizon out the side. We made some turns and I kept my airspeed and altitude by adding small amounts of power. The rudder was effective and the ailerons were definitely not. It occurred to me this is a place where a low time Mustang pilot could get into a lot of trouble....After coaxing the airplane through some turns, I added power to recover from slow flight, Lockwood brought up the flaps and landing gear and retrimmed. Trim. Trim. Trim. This is a no-kidding trim airplane. Keep it trimmed, and it will fly nicely. Get out of the ballpark, and your workload and control forces will rise dramatically.
As for your Hellcat assertion - this from Flight Journal April 2002 :
The Hellcat's only undesirable fighter characteristic was its need for constant longitudinal and directional trim changes during large airspeed variations because of its positive stabilities in those two axes. This could be annoying to the pilot at first, but it became a habit with time because the three tab-adjustment controls were similar to the Wildcat's and within easy reach by a pilot dropping his left hand from the throttle. [URL=http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200204/ai_n9021260/pg_4]http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200204/ai_n9021260/pg_4[

AFJ_Locust
10-01-2006, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
The biggest advantage for trim in this sim is for those that use Trim wheels or sliders. This way they can make those rediculous turns at high speeds that would otherwise be impossible.

There is no elevator needed on a 109 when you have trim on a slider. Trim alone will pull you out of a full speed 90 degree dive from less than 500 meters.

I wish Oleg would put the trim delay back. It is just assanine the way it is now.

I couldnt agree with you more.............

WWMaxGunz
10-02-2006, 05:08 AM
4.04m exe, 4.05m files and my trim certainly has delay. I hold trim button down 2 seconds
and it is many more seconds before the nose stops moving from trim changing.

p-11.cAce
10-02-2006, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
The biggest advantage for trim in this sim is for those that use Trim wheels or sliders. This way they can make those rediculous turns at high speeds that would otherwise be impossible.

There is no elevator needed on a 109 when you have trim on a slider. Trim alone will pull you out of a full speed 90 degree dive from less than 500 meters.

I wish Oleg would put the trim delay back. It is just assanine the way it is now.

GOT TRACK? Go to external view, pull full back stick & note position of elevator. Now roll in full nose up trim and note position of elevator...gee how does one accomplish these amazing manuvers with no more elevator deflection? I've never been able to accomplish it and NEITHER HAS ANYONE ELSE http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Henkie_
10-03-2006, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by gkll:
My suggestion (to the 'improvements to the sim...) thread over in ORR is to put this on the pit on view. Some view nazis immediately responded with the usual line 'real planes had no such indicators, use the ball on the dash etc etc', however this criticism misses the point that we need feedback we will never have via g force etc. And you can't be checking the ball on your dash when in the midst of violent manuevers...

Yeah Max I know the WW doesn't stand for Wonder Woman.

It's a good suggestion. The physical feedback that we don't have in the game should be replaced by some other visual feedback.

(This could be done not just for trimming but for a lot more things)

Henkie_
10-03-2006, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
The biggest advantage for trim in this sim is for those that use Trim wheels or sliders. This way they can make those rediculous turns at high speeds that would otherwise be impossible.

There is no elevator needed on a 109 when you have trim on a slider. Trim alone will pull you out of a full speed 90 degree dive from less than 500 meters.

I wish Oleg would put the trim delay back. It is just assanine the way it is now.

GOT TRACK? Go to external view, pull full back stick & note position of elevator. Now roll in full nose up trim and note position of elevator...gee how does one accomplish these amazing manuvers with no more elevator deflection? I've never been able to accomplish it and NEITHER HAS ANYONE ELSE http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well you can pull really high G's out of a dive at high speed in the game, with elevator trim, but not without normal elevator, that is impossible.

I would only use elevator trim myself in that situation, to pull out of a high speed dive when the elevator can not be deflected anymore without trim. For the rest I don't use elevator trim.

Henkie_
10-03-2006, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I think trimming is a bit of a fetish perhaps encouraged by the civilian pilots who use this sim and who are accustomed to operating by FAA rules. The father of a friend of mine who flew Hellcats from carriers in WWII said they never used trim tabs except on long-range flights across country in the U.S.A. Otherwise they flew in neutral trim with their canopies open, gloves on, and goggles down. I use elevator trim constantly, but I simply do not have the time to be fiddling with trim for ailerons and rudder in the middle of a fracus. As for the elevator trim---often I find fiddling with it to get everything in balance causes me to be distracted from my number one job which is to focus on the enemy and fight. I believe I was more effective when I flew with all tabs in neutral and compensted with pedals and stick.

Well to be honest, in the game maybe it's not at all bad if enemy pilots busy themselves more with trim instead of the threats. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

WWMaxGunz
10-03-2006, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
The biggest advantage for trim in this sim is for those that use Trim wheels or sliders. This way they can make those rediculous turns at high speeds that would otherwise be impossible.

There is no elevator needed on a 109 when you have trim on a slider. Trim alone will pull you out of a full speed 90 degree dive from less than 500 meters.

I wish Oleg would put the trim delay back. It is just assanine the way it is now.

GOT TRACK? Go to external view, pull full back stick & note position of elevator. Now roll in full nose up trim and note position of elevator...gee how does one accomplish these amazing manuvers with no more elevator deflection? I've never been able to accomplish it and NEITHER HAS ANYONE ELSE http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's just people usually pulling into stalls that find themselves able to control it fine
enough to avoid going over the edge. In some cases they used trim alone which is so slow
that by the time you've got the command authority the plane has slowed down enough it won't
stall at that much deflection.

The difference as usual is in control and feel which many mistake for the FM itself.

Sliders all high avoids the creeping control coarseness effect that gets most players who
have the sliders low to high but at a cost in fine control and you can still stall, it's
just not as unexpected as you get the same strength for any joystick movement amount no
matter center or edge stick throw.

WWMaxGunz
10-03-2006, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by Henkie_:
Well you can pull really high G's out of a dive at high speed in the game, with elevator trim, but not without normal elevator, that is impossible.

Sorry but you are way wrong there. Not only was it possible but it was done and survivors did
write about it. First of those I saw was 109 pilot wrote of doing exactly that when the stick
was unmoveable by him with both arms straining. His IAS read 900+kph which the pitot will be
high at extreme speed so don't take that speed for fact. He used trim slow and careful and
did live to write about it.

There are others in 109's and other planes that did the same in emergencies and many more who
used small trim and stick just while flying. Try flying a real plane out of trim sometime and
see if you don't learn to appreciate trim! Without that zero force spot you are guessing and
trying to hold the stick against forces ... oh wait Henkie --- YOU don't have the problem of
holding the stick anywhere!
That's okay. Just leave your joystick where it is and change power the say to yourself "I
must know exactly where to move my joystick before I move it since I would have to know the
same for trim.". Not really huh? Even if the situation is the same you will move your stick
until the plane is flying right again but no way that would be good with trim!

So I have an answer for you.

What do we need trim for in this game?

We need trim for more REALISM.

p-11.cAce
10-03-2006, 08:22 AM
It's a good suggestion. The physical feedback that we don't have in the game should be replaced by some other visual feedback. What screen resolution and zoom are you using? In any normal cockpit and zoomed out I can see the ball just fine. If I'm zoomed in at all I just take a quick glance down(trackIR) - some aircraft are impossible to fly close to the edge without keeping a "third eye" on the ball - Spits and Mc's come to mind...let the ball slide and you'll spin off much sooner than if you keep it on center. Anyway -the reason for trim is that it is an integral part of operating any aircraft - especially wwII prop fighters. Anyone who thinks these aircraft could be flown "hands free" or that they did not really need trim is simply misinformed. Google a flight report on any of these aircraft and search for trim...I think you'll find trimming as as much a part of flying as anything else.

leitmotiv
10-03-2006, 09:02 AM
I find all the dogmatic assertions about trimming hilarious. A qualified carrier pilot and his squadron mates rate infinitely higher in my estimation than game aces and FAA pilots toodling around the sky in Hellcats sixty years after the war. If you are halfway competent in this game, maintaining perfect trim is a luxury. I can rake an enemy port to starboard with a little bit of rudder whether in trim or not.

p-11.cAce
10-03-2006, 09:30 AM
If you can provide some third party verification to your assertion I'd be more apt to believe it. I can provide several outside, independently verifiable sources to back up my claims...otherwise known as "fact checking". I appreciate that your comments may well be valid but without some verification other than the 60 year old recollections of "a father of a friend of mine"I can hardly consider them accurate. Sorry http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

leitmotiv
10-03-2006, 10:33 AM
Point well taken---it works only for me because I know him. When I told him about my strenuous efforts to remain in trim, he laughed and explained how he and his fellows flew---I was completely deflated. We have a Luftwaffe pilot on the hook over here:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/7721032884

I hope I can get some feedback from him. I have been looking carefully at the memoirs for trimming anecdotes, and, unfortunately, they are hard to find.

Henkie_
10-03-2006, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> It's a good suggestion. The physical feedback that we don't have in the game should be replaced by some other visual feedback. What screen resolution and zoom are you using? In any normal cockpit and zoomed out I can see the ball just fine. If I'm zoomed in at all I just take a quick glance down(trackIR) - some aircraft are impossible to fly close to the edge without keeping a "third eye" on the ball - Spits and Mc's come to mind...let the ball slide and you'll spin off much sooner than if you keep it on center. Anyway -the reason for trim is that it is an integral part of operating any aircraft - especially wwII prop fighters. Anyone who thinks these aircraft could be flown "hands free" or that they did not really need trim is simply misinformed. Google a flight report on any of these aircraft and search for trim...I think you'll find trimming as as much a part of flying as anything else. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I play always in wide view (1024x768)

You are talking about ww2 fighters in real life, but I am only talking about the game here.
The real pilots had to use trim because they felt the real stickforces, they could probably feel their planes sideslipping as well without looking at the ball. In some planes in FB you can not even see the ball good because it is obstructed by the control stick.

But I can play the game without trim just fine. I only watch the ball in the first few minutes of flight just to center it in planes with rudder trim, and then I leave it alone for the rest of the game. Because then I have other priorities/threats to watch out for. It is not always nescessary to fly the aircraft all the time on the edge anyway. Flying on the edge all the time would probably matter more when you are playing 1vs1 same airplane. But that is not interesting for me anyway.

Henkie_
10-03-2006, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Henkie_:
Well you can pull really high G's out of a dive at high speed in the game, with elevator trim, but not without normal elevator, that is impossible.

Sorry but you are way wrong there. Not only was it possible but it was done and survivors did
write about it. First of those I saw was 109 pilot wrote of doing exactly that when the stick
was unmoveable by him with both arms straining. His IAS read 900+kph which the pitot will be
high at extreme speed so don't take that speed for fact. He used trim slow and careful and
did live to write about it.

There are others in 109's and other planes that did the same in emergencies and many more who
used small trim and stick just while flying. Try flying a real plane out of trim sometime and
see if you don't learn to appreciate trim! Without that zero force spot you are guessing and
trying to hold the stick against forces ... oh wait Henkie --- YOU don't have the problem of
holding the stick anywhere!
That's okay. Just leave your joystick where it is and change power the say to yourself "I
must know exactly where to move my joystick before I move it since I would have to know the
same for trim.". Not really huh? Even if the situation is the same you will move your stick
until the plane is flying right again but no way that would be good with trim!

So I have an answer for you.

What do we need trim for in this game?

We need trim for more REALISM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here you are talking about real life.

But you forget that I am talking ONLY about the game. And I am not talking about some gradual pullout but a really sudden pullout with quickly max. elevator trim combined with quickly max. elevator. That kind of turn is possible in FB. But sure, it will be a gradual pullout if you use just elevator trim without pulling the stick back. But I don't think that a gradual turn is what the others were talking about when they said something like incredible turns.

I already heard one comment in this thread that trim is needed for more realism. But then I will say that the way it is modelled now is not good enough for me, because we can't feel the stickforces. Or have any idea how big the stickforces are compared to pilot strength. That is what I want to know exactly, because I can't feel the stickforces like a real pilot can. If I could feel the stickforces then sure I would be trimming all the time. But in the game we only feel the centering forces and they say nothing about the virtual stickforces in relation to pilot strength.

But maybe you can answer me how a real ww2 pilot can trim if he can't feel the stickforces?

p-11.cAce
10-03-2006, 01:36 PM
But you forget that I am talking ONLY about the game. And I am not talking about some gradual pullout but a really sudden pullout with quickly max. elevator trim combined with quickly max. elevator. That kind of turn is possible in FB.
And it is just as possible in RL! I do not understand how this misconception ever came about - trim does NOT move the control surface to any higher deflection than is possible with full stick...so full aft stick with no trim is = to full aft stick with full nose up (or down for that matter) trim. What trim does do is reduce the force required to achieve that deflection as the stick force is directly related to the control configuration of a specific speed and angle of attack. Since the control deflection is identical how does trim in any way increase the speed at which a pull out or turn is made? The answer is it does'nt! What does change is the amount of force required to deflect the control surface to its fullest point. The center point of the virtual stick which, as you have pointed out, can be difficult to discern since there is limited or no tactile feedback and only visual feedback which can be easily overlooked.
I think what happens is this - you enter a dive and without trimming attempt a pullout from high speed. Then you dove again, only this time when you pull out you crank in a bunch of nose up trim. Because the interface uses a "force applied to the virtual stick" means of applying joystick position to virtual stick position you perceive that you have pulled out quicker with trim. What has actually happened is that the trim has reduced the virtual stick force required for the pullout, allowing the virtual stick to move to full aft position more rapidly than would be possible without trimming. This is EXACTLY how it would happen in real life. What takes you longer to move - a 5 pound weight or a 25 pound weight? This is also why it is easier to rip off the wings of aircraft when you over trim nose up...with trim neutralized it might not even be possible to pull full aft stick due to high stick forces. When you crank in a bunch of trim it might take all of your virtual stick force available to hold the nose down, but only a few pounds of pull to acheive full deflection.
http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/9378/flybf109.html

During a dive at 400 mph all three controls were in turn displaced slightly and released. No vibration, flutter or snaking developed. If the elevator is trimmed for level flight at full throttle, a large push is needed to hold in the dive, and there is a temptation to trim in. If, in fact, the airplane is trimmed into the dive, recovery is difficult unless the trimmer is wound back owing to the excessive heaviness of the elevator.
You see? The trim reduces the stck force required for control deflection - the lower the stick force the easier (and faster) a control surface may be moved to full deflection.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_199912/ai_n8870616/pg_3

When you maneuver above 500km/h, two hands are required for a more aggressive performance. Either that or get on the trimmer to help. Despite this heavying up, it is still quite easy to get 5G at these speeds.
Utlize the trim to help manage control inputs...not sure how much simpiler this can get.

p-11.cAce
10-03-2006, 01:52 PM
But maybe you can answer me how a real ww2 pilot can trim if he can't feel the stickforces?
F-16 pilots trim their aircraft and they have no stickforces - heck the stick only moves a few fractions of an inch in any direction! They trim how all pilots actually trim though they may not realize it - they trim until the stick center point is neutral in relation to the flight regime they want to maintain. I think I said this back on page 2 or 3...the reduction of stick force is a benefit of this. You do not need stickforces to acheive this - only stick position. As in my example before - level off in a bf-109 at 400knots. Note the position of your joystick (probably pushed forward some to maintain that altitude). Now crank in some nose down trim and note that to maintain that altitude you do not need to hold in as much forward sick. This is because the center point of the virtual stick has repositioned (actually the trim tab is now holding in some down elevator via aerodynamic forces). Stickforce change is a side benefit of this whole thing and is in no way required to accuratly trim.

Henkie_
10-03-2006, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> But you forget that I am talking ONLY about the game. And I am not talking about some gradual pullout but a really sudden pullout with quickly max. elevator trim combined with quickly max. elevator. That kind of turn is possible in FB.
And it is just as possible in RL! I do not understand how this misconception ever came about - trim does NOT move the control surface to any higher deflection than is possible with full stick...so full aft stick with no trim is = to full aft stick with full nose up (or down for that matter) trim. What trim does do is reduce the force required to achieve that deflection as the stick force is directly related to the control configuration of a specific speed and angle of attack. Since the control deflection is identical how does trim in any way increase the speed at which a pull out or turn is made? The answer is it does'nt! What does change is the amount of force required to deflect the control surface to its fullest point. The center point of the virtual stick which, as you have pointed out, can be difficult to discern since there is limited or no tactile feedback and only visual feedback which can be easily overlooked.
I think what happens is this - you enter a dive and without trimming attempt a pullout from high speed. Then you dove again, only this time when you pull out you crank in a bunch of nose up trim. Because the interface uses a "force applied to the virtual stick" means of applying joystick position to virtual stick position you perceive that you have pulled out quicker with trim. What has actually happened is that the trim has reduced the virtual stick force required for the pullout, allowing the virtual stick to move to full aft position more rapidly than would be possible without trimming. This is EXACTLY how it would happen in real life. What takes you longer to move - a 5 pound weight or a 25 pound weight? This is also why it is easier to rip off the wings of aircraft when you over trim nose up...with trim neutralized it might not even be possible to pull full aft stick due to high stick forces. When you crank in a bunch of trim it might take all of your virtual stick force available to hold the nose down, but only a few pounds of pull to acheive full deflection.
http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/9378/flybf109.html

During a dive at 400 mph all three controls were in turn displaced slightly and released. No vibration, flutter or snaking developed. If the elevator is trimmed for level flight at full throttle, a large push is needed to hold in the dive, and there is a temptation to trim in. If, in fact, the airplane is trimmed into the dive, recovery is difficult unless the trimmer is wound back owing to the excessive heaviness of the elevator.
You see? The trim reduces the stck force required for control deflection - the lower the stick force the easier (and faster) a control surface may be moved to full deflection.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_199912/ai_n8870616/pg_3

When you maneuver above 500km/h, two hands are required for a more aggressive performance. Either that or get on the trimmer to help. Despite this heavying up, it is still quite easy to get 5G at these speeds.
Utlize the trim to help manage control inputs...not sure how much simpiler this can get. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I never said this kind of turn would be impossible in real life. I only said that to pull really high G's at high speed, it's not enough to trim the elevator, but you must apply elevator also.

And yes it is not posible to pull full aft stick with neutral elevator trim, which is why elevator trim is needed when the virtual pilot is not strong enough. But this is actually one of the few situations that I will need trim.

Henkie_
10-03-2006, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But maybe you can answer me how a real ww2 pilot can trim if he can't feel the stickforces?
F-16 pilots trim their aircraft and they have no stickforces - heck the stick only moves a few fractions of an inch in any direction! They trim how all pilots actually trim though they may not realize it - they trim until the stick center point is neutral in relation to the flight regime they want to maintain. I think I said this back on page 2 or 3...the reduction of stick force is a benefit of this. You do not need stickforces to acheive this - only stick position. As in my example before - level off in a bf-109 at 400knots. Note the position of your joystick (probably pushed forward some to maintain that altitude). Now crank in some nose down trim and note that to maintain that altitude you do not need to hold in as much forward sick. This is because the center point of the virtual stick has repositioned (actually the trim tab is now holding in some down elevator via aerodynamic forces). Stickforce change is a side benefit of this whole thing and is in no way required to accuratly trim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, but do you mean I16 or F16 pilots? Because last time I checked, the I16 doesn't even have trim controls. Again, I am not talking about some F16 game or real life F16, but about forgotten battles.

p-11.cAce
10-03-2006, 04:36 PM
I did mean F16 - and used it because it is the only aircraft I could think of that uses a non-moving stick. I use examples from real life to illustrate that you assumptions are incorrect and your position that trim is somehow an aberration are untenable. In forgotten battles trim works EXACTLY as it does in real life - the fact that you misunderstand the effects the interface has on this is unfortunate. I've practically written a book about trim and the effects it has on an aircraft, both in rl and in sim, over the last 9 pages. I am glad that your system, which bypasses the interface, works for you. Trim is an integral part of flying an aircraft, and imho Oleg has done a wonderful job of integrating its use into what is a very limited simulation enviroment on even todays pc's.

Henkie_
10-04-2006, 02:26 AM
I don't say that trim in a real plane is an aberration, I don't even say that it is an aberration in the game. For those who want or "need" trim in the game, they are most welcome to it.

The only thing I say is that I do just fine without trim in the game, have done so since IL2, and that the force based interface combined with the always recentering joystick has shortcomings when the stickforces become too high for the virtual pilot.(But then again those situations don't have to happen too often also)

So sure, maybe Oleg did an ok job on trim modelling. But (and I am not sure) I think long time ago there was an interview on simhq, where gamemakers said that it is almost impossible to model trim good in a game. Just the fact that I can play this game fine without trim says enough to me anyway.

But it's interesting to read that trim in this game works more or less like in the real F16.

WOLFMondo
10-04-2006, 03:15 AM
I don't know how people can fly without trimming. The performance loss and fighting with the plane is just too much for me.

Henkie_
10-04-2006, 07:21 AM
It may be a mystery to you, but it is easy for me. Any performance loss (if any) is not something I worry about.

Besides, some flyables in FB don't even have trim. They belong to my favourite planes in the whole planeset. In those planes you can't even see the slipball good.