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Xiolablu3
08-27-2007, 08:15 AM
The Volkssturmgewehr 1-5

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9a/Volkssturmgewehr_1_5.jpg

The Volkssturmgewehr 1-5 is a 7.92 x 33 mm (7.92 mm Kurz) caliber semi-automatic rifle developed by Nazi Germany during World War II. It is also known as the VG 1-5, Volkssturm-Gewehr 1-5, Versuchs-Gerät 1-5 and "Gustloff" and was intended to be used by the Volkssturm militia.

The VG 1-5 was quickly designed by Herr Barnitzke of the Gustloff-Werke for the Primitiv-Waffen-Programm ("primitive weapon program") in 1944 and was intended to be used by the Volkssturm. The production of the VG 1-5 was around 10,000 and occurred from January 1945 till the end of the war.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturmgewehr_1-5



I had never seen this before, hope it is new/interesting to some of you guys too.

BSS_Goat
08-27-2007, 09:17 AM
New one on me....and I'm a blood-thirsty American-redneck Euro-bashing gun-nut....

Choctaw111
08-27-2007, 12:55 PM
Seems to be a typo on the rate of fire. I have never seen this one before either.

ryankm
08-27-2007, 12:58 PM
I have heard of this gun. It is semi automatic.

Xiolablu3
08-27-2007, 01:49 PM
DOes anyone else have any pics or info on obscure WW2 rifles that we might not have heard of before, please? I find this kind of thing interesting...

German MP 3008 - STEN inspired gun for when things got tough :-

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/99/MP_3008_Sub_Machine_Gun_Wooden-Stocked.jpg

Mdae to be as cheap as possible and able to arm civilians and anyone at a cheap price.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP_3008

Nice STEN page listing all models :-

http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/StenGuns.html

DuxCorvan
08-27-2007, 02:42 PM
Oh no, I'm sure someone used one of those to kill little babies and then fry their guts and eat them with mustard and choucrut! How obscene! Now I won't be able to sleep. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Friendly_flyer
08-27-2007, 02:53 PM
I think I have this baby in some of my literature. Hah, I do!

Apparently it was a crude but quite usable design, that was "well built where it mattered and with ample factor of safety". Neat little thing!

The sleeve around the barrel recoils back wit the bolt, holding the forestock must have been very important.

... and I'm a tree-hugging European and all.

Xiolablu3
08-27-2007, 03:06 PM
German STEN copy MP3008. :-

http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/images/guns/StenMP3008-5.JPG


Interestingly, there is another German STEN copy which was manufactured at great expense, and it cost around 8 times the cost of a Mauser 98K rifle and was named 'Neumunster Device'.

It is unclear just what these guns were used for and the reason for their manufacture. It was certainly not simply as a cheap submachine gun as in the other guns like the STEN and MP3008.

From Wikipedia :- 'Some confusion exists between the MP3008 Volksmaschinenpistole and the Neuminster Device. The Neuminster Device was manufactured prior to the MP3008 under great secrecy by Mauser Waffenfabrik. The Neuminster device was an almost perfect copy of the British Sten, even down to its British proof marks. The reason for manufacturing the Neuminster Device is unknown but they were manufactured at great expense. Each Neuminster Device cost eight times as much as a Mauser Model 98K rifle.'

I wonder just what it was used for? German Spies hoping to infiltrate the resistance groups perhaps?

Waldo.Pepper
08-27-2007, 03:35 PM
They made a Volkspistole as well.

Rammjaeger
08-27-2007, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The VG 1-5 was quickly designed by Herr Barnitzke of the Gustloff-Werke for the Primitiv-Waffen-Programm ("primitive weapon program")

You know you are going downhill when you authorize a program with a name like that.

Esel1964
08-27-2007, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The Volkssturmgewehr 1-5

The Volkssturmgewehr 1-5 is a 7.92 x 33 mm (7.92 mm Kurz) caliber semi-automatic rifle developed by Nazi Germany during World War II. It is also known as the VG 1-5, Volkssturm-Gewehr 1-5, Versuchs-Gerät 1-5 and "Gustloff" and was intended to be used by the Volkssturm militia.

The VG 1-5 was quickly designed by Herr Barnitzke of the Gustloff-Werke for the Primitiv-Waffen-Programm ("primitive weapon program") in 1944 and was intended to be used by the Volkssturm. The production of the VG 1-5 was around 10,000 and occurred from January 1945 till the end of the war.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturmgewehr_1-5



I had never seen this before, hope it is new/interesting to some of you guys too.

Great find,thanks for sharing! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Esel1964
08-27-2007, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Choctaw111:
Seems to be a typo on the rate of fire. I have never seen this one before either.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Yeah big time,20 - 30 rounds per minute,that's about the r.o.f. of an 1870's Sharp's rifle. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

polak5
08-27-2007, 10:35 PM
Doug.d saw this beauty at the military museum in South Africa. lucky him http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Doug_Dread/Smallarms4.jpg

edit:
check out his thread lots of extremely cool pictures.... posted last Friday.
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/8051040585

Enforcer572005
08-27-2007, 10:45 PM
Wow. That's a new one on me. I've got several small arms references and thought I'd seen every german ww2 weapon (they give me nightmares http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) , but this is a new one on me. Interesting how it uses MP-44 mags.

The german version of the Sten also is kinda odd, since I can't imagine what they had in mind for it.

I'm gonna write Rosie Odenell a letter and ask her to forgive me for looking at guns now.

GreyFox5
08-27-2007, 10:47 PM
Was thinking it was this: http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/weapons-german-ww2/sturmgewhr-stg44.jpg
The next submachine gun design to emerge was the MP43 or Machine Pistol 43 from a design developed in 1943. It fired a less powerful cartridge and had a lighter recoil as a result. However, Hitler, still thinking that troops needed a weapon capable of firing 2000 yards, ordered that production of the weapon not start. The German arms minister, however, knew the need of the new weapon, and changed the name to "Machine Pistol", which is what the Germans called their submachine guns like the US Thompson .45 cal. The trick worked and the weapon went into production at three factories and German troops all over the Eastern Front were clamouring for the new weapon. The whole affair was blown" when a few divisional commanders asked Hitler at a conference when they would get the new weapon. Hitler was furious and ordered an investigation. Luckily for the men that had disobeyed the Fuehrer, the results of the investigation were so encouraging about the new weapon that Hitler changed his mind and announced that henceforward the weapon would be called "Sturmgewehr" or Assault Rifle. This was the world's first ever assault rifle.
From this site: http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-weapons/enemy_ww2.htm

Found something here: http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/cgi-bin/res.pl?keyword=VG+1-5&offset=0

waffen-79
08-27-2007, 11:20 PM
STG '44 & '45

someone called "vilas" already made them for ArmA http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif lots of fun!

Blutarski2004
08-28-2007, 05:17 AM
Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
I'm gonna write Rosie Odenell a letter and ask her to forgive me for looking at guns now.


..... :-]

Kurfurst__
08-28-2007, 10:49 AM
The Sturmgewehr 45 is the most important of them all.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Stg45M_Sisco.jpg

It used a roller-locker system somewhat similiar to the MG 42's, but the gun itself was not ready before the war ended. However the guys who did it, including a certain Herr Vorgrimmler went to Spain and designed the Spaniards their own assault rifle based on the Stg 45, the CETME.

http://www.michiganmilitia.com/SMVM/weapons/sb-cetme.jpg

Later on these blokes went back to Germany, and founded a silly little firm under the name Heckler und Koch. As after the war Belgium's FN was, for some obscure reason, was rather unwilling to sell the license of it's own FN FAL design to it's fellow friend in NATO http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif , so the Weh... the Bundeswehr turned to Herr Vorgrimmler's company again, who came up with the H&K G 3, very similiar in fact to the CETME...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/G3a3.gif

... and the grandfather of zillion of H&K guns ... including this one which is just so good and widespread that it's just bloody boring.. yet it's again nothing but a variation on the G 3, firing 9mm para in a smaller package..

http://www.hkpro.com/image/mp5a2.jpg

Not to mention what is probably having the sexiest lines of all modern sniper rifles, rivalled in this only by the good old SVD..

http://www.hkpro.com/psg1rt.jpg

It's also rather annoying that all this stuff that made billions for H&K effectively stems from the Sturmgewehr 45... with a bit of an exaggrevation, H&K did little more than variations to the same subject in 40 year period after the war.

The Volksturm Sten-copy, the Potsdam Gerät is a funny one. It's a full circle since the 'original Sten from which it copied was effectively nothing but a dumbed down Brit Lancaster SMG, which in turn was copied in 1940 - when the Brits were desperate for getting an SMG of their own into production ASAP - from the old Bergmann MP 28 designed by Schmeisser...

Xiolablu3
08-28-2007, 12:01 PM
Thanks for all that info!

One of my favourite rifles of all time, purely for coolness value rather than effectiveness (although the M16 and M60 borrowed a mechanism from this gun and it fielded quite a few innovations)

The Classic that is the FG42

http://homepage3.nifty.com/sweeper/gun/auto_r/fg42.jpg


The Fallschirmjägergewehr 42 (FG42) was an automatic rifle produced in Nazi Germany during World War II. The weapon was developed specifically for the use by paratroopers, who wanted a suitable gun after their experiences in the invasion of Crete. As a result, the FG42 was developed. It could fire single shots semi-automatically, but also serve as a light support weapon. Its development was authorized by Hermann Göing. The FG42 was manufactured and deployed only in small numbers


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FG42

I would LOVE to own one, but they are so rare..

Fox_3
08-28-2007, 12:02 PM
Kurfurst. That's Lanchester not Lancaster.

It took a 50rd box magazine, and could also accept Sten mags, and could be fitted with the SMLE No1 sword bayonet. The magazine housing was machined from solid brass.

It entered service with the RN in 1941, and the last examples were removed from armouries in 1975. The RAF was the only other user.

Fox_3
08-28-2007, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Thanks for all that info!

One of my favourite rifles of all time, purely for coolness value rather than effectiveness (although the M16 borrowed a mechanism from this gun and it fielded quite a few innovations)

The Classic that is the FG42

http://homepage3.nifty.com/sweeper/gun/auto_r/fg42.jpg


The Fallschirmjägergewehr 42 (FG42) was an automatic rifle produced in Nazi Germany during World War II. The weapon was developed specifically for the use by paratroopers, who wanted a suitable gun after their experiences in the invasion of Crete. As a result, the FG42 was developed. It could fire single shots semi-automatically, but also serve as a light support weapon. Its development was authorized by Hermann Göing. The FG42 was manufactured and deployed only in small numbers


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FG42

I would LOVE to own one, but they are so rare..

For sale here. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.modelguns.co.uk/fg42_blowback.htm

http://www.modelguns.co.uk/fg42_type2.htm

Kurfurst__
08-28-2007, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Fox_3:
Kurfurst. That's Lanchester not Lancaster.

Never really understood the particular difference between... pardon me, the ugly foreigner, that I've mixed them up. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Friendly_flyer
08-28-2007, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fox_3:
Kurfurst. That's Lanchester not Lancaster.

Never really understood the particular difference between... pardon me, the ugly foreigner </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

O, come on Kurfy, the Lanchester is the coolest SMC ever made! It's heavy, it's ungainly, it even came with a foot and a half long Enfield bayonet! It was to SMGs what the Hurricane where to fighters!

http://www.dwsuk.com/oscommerce/images/lanchester.jpg

I.JG53_Steuben
08-28-2007, 02:26 PM
Heckler & Koch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gifhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Domok_g36.JPG/800px-Domok_g36.JPG

Xiolablu3
08-28-2007, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Fox_3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Thanks for all that info!

One of my favourite rifles of all time, purely for coolness value rather than effectiveness (although the M16 borrowed a mechanism from this gun and it fielded quite a few innovations)

The Classic that is the FG42

http://homepage3.nifty.com/sweeper/gun/auto_r/fg42.jpg


The Fallschirmjägergewehr 42 (FG42) was an automatic rifle produced in Nazi Germany during World War II. The weapon was developed specifically for the use by paratroopers, who wanted a suitable gun after their experiences in the invasion of Crete. As a result, the FG42 was developed. It could fire single shots semi-automatically, but also serve as a light support weapon. Its development was authorized by Hermann Göing. The FG42 was manufactured and deployed only in small numbers


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FG42

I would LOVE to own one, but they are so rare..

For sale here. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.modelguns.co.uk/fg42_blowback.htm

http://www.modelguns.co.uk/fg42_type2.htm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, but it would have to be a real WW2 vintage type if I owned one. I believe they are about £35,000, probably more now.

Kurfurst__
08-29-2007, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fox_3:
Kurfurst. That's Lanchester not Lancaster.

Never really understood the particular difference between... pardon me, the ugly foreigner </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

O, come on Kurfy, the Lanchester is the coolest SMC ever made! It's heavy, it's ungainly, it even came with a foot and a half long Enfield bayonet! It was to SMGs what the Hurricane where to fighters!

http://www.dwsuk.com/oscommerce/images/lanchester.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, it's a fine SMG allright, finely polished valnut stock, brass buttplate.. good ancestry, too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kocur_
08-29-2007, 04:27 AM
It is also known as the VG 1-5, Volkssturm-Gewehr 1-5, Versuchs-Gerät 1-5 and "Gustloff" and was intended to be used by the Volkssturm militia.

Actually "VG 1-5" was not used in any German WW2 document concerning that weapon.



The VG 1-5 was quickly designed by Herr Barnitzke of the Gustloff-Werke

Actually it wasnt so quick http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Gustloff Volksturmgewehr was just Barnitzke's earlier designed MP507 (internal Gustloff designation, not an official military one) with front sight changed and full auto capability removed.



for the Primitiv-Waffen-Programm ("primitive weapon program")

Not at all. The weapon was Gustloff proposal to be accepted into said program - without earlier Waffenamt order. And was actually rejected on bases of too high ammo consumption, being too expensive and 'getting in the way' of StG 44. The fact, that Gustlof Volkssturmgewehr went into production at all was thanks to local Gauleiter, as later in the war, power to order and produce weapons for Volksturm went to lower level of administration.


The weapon operates as follows: gun gas is let out through a port in barrel to a chamber, where it pushes forward against a part connected with bolt, thus slowing it down while pressure in barrel pushes it rearwards through base of cartridge case (the bolt is not locked and does move rearwards all the time but considerably slower). In result even though ther bolt is far lighter that it would take in plain blowback, it does not move back too far during high presure in barrel and does not let cartridge case slip out of chamber too far.
That principle of operation was 'forgotten' for decades and got resurrected in pistols in 1970s: in Steyr GB, HK P7 and most recently in unlucky Southafrican Vector CP-1.

JimmyBlonde
08-29-2007, 04:43 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The Volkssturmgewehr 1-5

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9a/Volkssturmgewehr_1_5.jpg

The Volkssturmgewehr 1-5 is a 7.92 x 33 mm (7.92 mm Kurz) caliber semi-automatic rifle developed by Nazi Germany during World War II. It is also known as the VG 1-5, Volkssturm-Gewehr 1-5, Versuchs-Gerät 1-5 and "Gustloff" and was intended to be used by the Volkssturm militia.

The VG 1-5 was quickly designed by Herr Barnitzke of the Gustloff-Werke for the Primitiv-Waffen-Programm ("primitive weapon program") in 1944 and was intended to be used by the Volkssturm. The production of the VG 1-5 was around 10,000 and occurred from January 1945 till the end of the war.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturmgewehr_1-5



I had never seen this before, hope it is new/interesting to some of you guys too.


Pfft, not 7.92 obviously. The mag on this would only accomodate 9mm praps. Utter rubbish, sorry.

Kocur_
08-29-2007, 04:54 AM
Originally posted by JimmyBlonde:
Pfft, not 7.92 obviously. The mag on this would only accomodate 9mm praps. Utter rubbish, sorry.

No offence, but you have no idea on weapons. The text says 7,92mm x 33, where the latter number is lenght of case in milimters. The round you have in mind is full power rifle round - 7,92mm x 57 Mauser, while 7,92mm x 33 Kurz was intermediate round and it did feed both StG 44 and Gustloff Volkssturmngewehr.

mortoma
08-29-2007, 06:09 AM
I'd like one of all these weapons please!! How much is that MP43 in the window??

Xiolablu3
08-29-2007, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by JimmyBlonde:



Pfft, not 7.92 obviously. The mag on this would only accomodate 9mm praps. Utter rubbish, sorry.

Boy needs to do some reading methinks... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

JV44
08-29-2007, 11:08 PM
I took these at the Koblenz Museum in 2005

Assorted things that go bang!

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/markltuc/Koblenz/IMG_5953.jpg
IMG]http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/markltuc/Koblenz/IMG_5952.jpg[/IMG]
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/markltuc/Koblenz/IMG_5942.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/markltuc/Koblenz/IMG_5938.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/markltuc/Koblenz/IMG_5940.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/markltuc/Koblenz/IMG_5951.jpg

HellToupee
08-30-2007, 02:46 AM
Sten was designed around the same time as the lanchester its a contemporary design not a dumbed down version.

Resistance fighters could build thousands of the things in underground workshops, which is what the germans needed.