PDA

View Full Version : Air Gunners: Get That Fighter! (Selected pages from the manual.)



Waldo.Pepper
07-29-2007, 03:32 PM
The following are some excerpted pages from an arig gunnery manual that was published by both the USAAF and the USN during the war.

This example is the USN and has a 1944 publication date.

The booklet makes three main points.

1. When the fighter has started his attack on you - aim between him and the tail of your own airplane. (This is counterintuitive and is the main point of the booklet.)

2. Use the correct deflection.

3. Don't waste ammunition when he is out of range.

Here are some selected pages illustrating the technique of the first point, for those interested in trying it out in game.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-01.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-02.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-03.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-04.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-05.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-06.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-07.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-08.jpg

I wonder if Oleg modelled this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-09.jpg


Here is the supporting diagram to help further illustrate the concept. (I like pictures in books! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Waldo.Pepper
07-29-2007, 03:32 PM
The following are some excerpted pages from an arig gunnery manual that was published by both the USAAF and the USN during the war.

This example is the USN and has a 1944 publication date.

The booklet makes three main points.

1. When the fighter has started his attack on you - aim between him and the tail of your own airplane. (This is counterintuitive and is the main point of the booklet.)

2. Use the correct deflection.

3. Don't waste ammunition when he is out of range.

Here are some selected pages illustrating the technique of the first point, for those interested in trying it out in game.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-01.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-02.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-03.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-04.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-05.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-06.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-07.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-08.jpg

I wonder if Oleg modelled this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Air%20Gunner%20GTF%20Excerpt/Untitled-09.jpg


Here is the supporting diagram to help further illustrate the concept. (I like pictures in books! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

horseback
07-29-2007, 03:45 PM
Yes, he did, but the real life gunners lacked the perfectly smooth ai firing platform and in the case of the ai gunners, precise knowlege of relative range and speed vectors and a computer to calculate their shots for them.

AFAIK, no fighter in WWII was ever downed by an aimed burst from over 500m, and no fighter was ever hit by other than chance from an angle greater than 30 degrees up, down, or horizontal from more than 200m by any gunner on a bomber or twin engined 'fighter'.

Bombers defended themselves by flying in close formation and used the sheer volume of bullets put out by their gunners to dissuade fighters from closing to effective range.

cheers

horseback

Crash_Moses
07-30-2007, 07:51 AM
Yup, I've got that too. Posted similar pics in the PF forum awhile back. As far as I can tell it's accurate in the sim.

Back when I still flew regularly on-line I got pretty good at flying backwards in the SBD while manning the rear gun.

I still got shot down more often than not...but I made 'em pay for the privelage. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

S!

LEBillfish
07-30-2007, 09:57 AM
good stuff yet with a point not even expounded upon....."Fire between him and your tail"....We all do it, and imagine r/l most did as well, flying an arc down into dead six from no matter the angle whether we intend to or not..

Now when patient, and using our heads (yea right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ) we never find 6, yet more often then not all do even AI.......So aiming between the tail and the enemy even if firing under him somewhat will mean most likely he'll run through that path. Once hits are made then your swing continues ever gradually slowing.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

DuxCorvan
07-30-2007, 02:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:
Yes, he did, but the real life gunners lacked the perfectly smooth AI firing platform and in the case of the AI gunners, precise knowledge of relative range and speed vectors and a computer to calculate their shots for them.

AFAIK, no fighter in WWII was ever downed by an aimed burst from over 500m, and no fighter was ever hit by other than chance from an angle greater than 30 degrees up, down, or horizontal from more than 200m by any gunner on a bomber or twin engined 'fighter'.

Bombers defended themselves by flying in close formation and used the sheer volume of bullets put out by their gunners to dissuade fighters from closing to effective range.

cheers

horseback </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

SUPERAEREO
07-30-2007, 03:33 PM
I look at the tracers and adjust accordingly.

Lurch1962
07-30-2007, 07:03 PM
When I'm firing from a gunner's station, I obtain the firing solution in this way:

I don't think of where the bullets will go as seen from an EXTERNAL, STATIONARY VIEWPOINT as the manual above illustrates. After all, I'm on a moving platform, so I need to visualize the problem from this perspective.

I imagine my plane is motionless in a gigantic wind tunnel, which contains also my attacker. So only the *relatively* small motion of the attacker with respect to my "motionless" plane needs to be considered.

In essence, where you aim is dictated for the most part by the ANGULAR direction of travel of the enemy with respect to the reference frame defined by your A/C. So if he's executing an attack commencing from the beam and sliding in toward your 6, his angular direction of travel across your line of sight is converging toward your plane's centreline. Therefore it only makes sense to aim somewhere between him and your plane's longitudinal axis, even if he's leading you and hence has his nose pointing *away* from his apparent path of motion as seen from your moving perch.

Of course, if the bandit has a large speed excess, this must also be factored in. But the problem remains fundamentally the same.

Naturally, tracers help with zeroing in, at least if you have the time. It helps also to have an intuitive feeling for distance of travel per unit of time for your tracers. It's so very satisfying to watch the arc of your tracers nicely intersect (or more likely straddle, with the odd hit) the attacker, even out to about a kilometer away.

--Lurch--

Waldo.Pepper
07-31-2007, 02:19 AM
Oh Brother. At the risk of starting a row. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


"no fighter was ever hit by other than chance from an angle greater than 30 degrees up, down, or horizontal from more than 200m by any gunner on a bomber or twin engined 'fighter'.

To turn the argument on its head I would suggest that given the thousands of encounters between bomber and fighter I would be amazed if NO fighter was ever hit under the described conditions. However, if found then they will be derisively and unfairly dismissed as merely being hit by chance.

"Bombers defended themselves by flying in close formation and used the sheer volume of bullets put out by their gunners to dissuade fighters from closing to effective range."

Overstatement. This may be true of some, particularly American daylight doctrine. But this is hardly a universal truth.