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BSS_Vidar
06-22-2005, 11:51 AM
A great video of P-47 gunnery demonstrating what Pipper and I were discussing in another thread. Note the stability this great machine demonstrates while engaged. The pilot aims the plane effortlessly with no oscilations in the nose about the virticle axis. Watch this, then go fly the Hog in-game.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/movies/p47screen

I'm so happy the duck waddle is gone during taxiing now; however, it has to be takin' back out of the flying.

From some of the latest accounts, the 4.01 FM is just a small fraction of the FM we'll be getting in BoB. Torque and P-Factor are excellent additions, but some things have been compromised, mainly stability.

LEXX_Luthor
06-22-2005, 12:30 PM
You may be right. We were posting about I~153 bobbing about CG after spin recovery (or is that correct?). Same with I~16 I noticed when I finally looked at it in External view. But the bobbing damps out quickly. And its a minor issue except for the fact that Post Stall Behavior is a militant radicalized Cult Religion among the computer Dogfighter community, or as some say, Monitor Jokeys. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

archie3101
06-22-2005, 12:54 PM
i could not agree with you more Vidar, i love the trimming, take offs, and landings in the new patch but the way the nose bounces and sways after every ACM seems way out of whack.

i mostly fly the F4-C and with the new patch you are lucky if you hit a bomber let alone a fighter. my gunnery was never great but now it is down right awful. i have tried easing up on my stick and settings but still the nose is all over the place.

from the looks of that video the P-47's were solid as a rock as they rolled in on the target and fired.

i hope the powers that be read all the posts concerning this and rethink some of the FM's in the game


arch

LEXX_Luthor
06-22-2005, 01:29 PM
They are reading. This is a form of open Beta test for BoB and Beyond.

I like the roll. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif I~16 much reduced in roll now but not slow, and I am hoping that is correct. Very nice.

Lixma
06-22-2005, 02:17 PM
Well it's a nicely edited video but it doesn't for one second demonstrate the P-47's 'legendary stability'. All I see are random cuts of guns firing and stuff exploding...all from totally seperate reels of film.

Stuff like this is cool to watch but is useless when attempting to reconcile a real-life P-47's behaviour with its virtual counterpart.

(As it happens watch the gun firing sequence at 2:02....quite a bit of lateral movement there...looks quite familiar)

BSS_Vidar
06-22-2005, 03:17 PM
I'm not quite sure just how much footage you need to see. I don't think they edited out any bounce in the nose. What you're seeing here is a great example of what it really looks like from the pilots perspective.

As for that segment you're talking about... The pilot overshot the target on the initial trigger pull and was compensating back into the objective. The nose did not bounce 3 to 4 times during compensation, and it didn't bounce again when he finaly zeroed in on the target. That was all controlled input from the pilot, not instability.

Man, I wish I could post a track so you can all compare. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Lixma
06-22-2005, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
I'm not quite sure just how much footage you need to see. I don't think they edited out any bounce in the nose. What you're seeing here is a great example of what it really looks like from the pilots perspective.


We're seeing nothing of the sort.

There are 4 moments where we are given an in-cockpit shot. All of them last barely a second and don't show a thing (2:12 and 2:31). The other 2 at 3:15 and 3:32 show the plane manouvering gently at low level. So, appx 4 seconds of potentially useful information in a 5 minute video ! Pure Hollywood...nothing more.


As for that segment you're talking about... The pilot overshot the target on the initial trigger pull and was compensating back into the objective.

I was referring to the rapid lateral 'shaking' when he fires the guns (2:02). That's something we do see with the in-game P-47.


The nose did not bounce 3 to 4 times during compensation, and it didn't bounce again when he finaly zeroed in on the target. That was all controlled input from the pilot, not instability.

Give the pilot some credit. He's probably trimmed out nicely for the speed he's going and the target's on the ground/very big/not moving.

I can aim without my nose bouncing around. It's something that all aircraft in FB do if you're ham-fisted with the stick or have joystick settings too sensitive. It's not a P-47 issue.

stathem
06-22-2005, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Lixma:

I was referring to the rapid lateral 'shaking' when he fires the guns (2:02). That's something we do see with the in-game P-47.



Where abouts on the P-47 is the gun camera situated?

BSS_Vidar
06-22-2005, 05:13 PM
OK, you need more footage to be convienced, that's fine. As a trained aviator with a few thousand hours, I don't. I also have a 2 hour flight yankin'-n-bakin' in a P-51D under my belt over North Florida that tells me the bounce/oscilations are over-done.

There's enough information in those shots to dispute the stability issues of not only the P-47 in this "game", but the FM over-all... well, in most allied aircraft anyway.

This is only a fraction of the FM we'll be getting in BoB. So I expect big differences in stability performance when they get it right.

Ham-fisting?. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Now that really cracked me up! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Lixma
06-22-2005, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by stathem:
Where abouts on the P-47 is the gun camera situated?

In the 2:02 segment you can't tell...there's nothing to reference it from. The tracers come from the right side and look very cannon-like to me. I'd be suprised if .50s (a tiny spurt at that) could produce the results seen in the video.

As I said earlier...this is just a collection of disparate clips from varying sources all stuck together to make a P-47 video. There's no continuity from one frame to the next and certainly nothing in there that's useful for accurate flight modelling.

It's a cool vid though.

archie3101
06-22-2005, 05:22 PM
edit

poster is not smart


arch

Lixma
06-22-2005, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
OK, you need more footage to be convienced, that's fine. As a trained aviator with a few thousand hours, I don't. I also have a 2 hour flight yankin'-n-bakin' in a P-51D under my belt over North Florida that tells me the bounce/oscilations are over-done.

There's enough information in those shots to dispute the stability issues of not only the P-47 in this "game", but the FM over-all... well, in most allied aircraft anyway.

This is only a fraction of the FM we'll be getting in BoB. So I expect big differences in stability performance when they get it right.

Ham-fisting?. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Now that really cracked me up! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I'm not arguing your real-life stuff, Vidar. I'm arguing over the validity of this film as any kind of evidence of, well, anything.

Tell me where the portions are that show the P-47's "stability this great machine demonstrates while engaged" or where "The pilot aims the plane effortlessly with no oscilations in the nose about the vertical axis".I can't find them. I found four seconds of in-cockpit footage. All i'm seeing is an MTV P-47 video.


Watch this, then go fly the Hog in-game.


I just did...my Jug wasn't oscillating vertically when manouvering or firing.

lrrp22
06-22-2005, 06:05 PM
Huh? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif The gun camera is mounted in the wing root. It has nothing to do with the gun mounts.


Originally posted by archie3101:
a gun cam is located where a gun barrel was. you remove one gun and replace with camera. when the pilot pulls the trigger instead of bullets you get pictures.

LEXX_Luthor
06-22-2005, 06:32 PM
P-47 has a slight and slow wagg when firing guns. Very little actually, but its there if you keep the trigger pulled. Yak-9 has larger wagg and its a faster wagg. Its all very little though, and at the ranges I shoot, of no consequence. And, it may be a reasonable simulation. Have not tried the big nose cannons on P-39, 109s, and Yak.

crazyivan1970
06-22-2005, 07:24 PM
If someone can host i have a track proving what Luthor says

Nice video, thank for posting it, but i am with Lix on this one. Enjoyable to watch, regardless.

p1ngu666
06-22-2005, 07:57 PM
think luther is talking about recoil from guns, others are talking about lining up the shot?

on teh ukhistory channel i saw a brief clip of i16 pulling off and into barrel roll sort of thing, but it was really fast roll and i16 was spirraling or some other odd thing, but it was really impressive.

was a program on the AVG, first half was really good with archive footage of various rare things like i16 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

crazyivan1970
06-22-2005, 08:03 PM
Am talking about everything. Hang i`ll post the link to TRK files. P-47 and P-51 nice and steady. You can fast forward it

crazyivan1970
06-22-2005, 08:34 PM
There you go: http://www.il2flying.com/videos/P47_P51.zip

Somehow i know that this wont change anything... but still. I tried http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VW-IceFire
06-22-2005, 08:49 PM
Love the video but it doesn't tell us about anything regarding stable gunnery.

GR142_Astro
06-22-2005, 11:44 PM
Criminey!

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the P51, P38 and P47 were stable gun platforms. Plus, it's only been discussed in a couple thousand books and articles at the least. But in FB land, selected a/c wander and bob about like they are on a set of marionette wires.

But hey, you folks must know something the aviation world does not. Carry on.

Fehler
06-23-2005, 12:44 AM
Just today, I flew the P-51, the P-47, and the P-38 online at Warclouds. And again today, I wondered how everyone is saying that it wobbles back and forth when firing.

I really think everyone should take a hard look at their sticks and settings. I personally use the X-45, but I have rudder pedals wired in to replace my rocker rudder switch.

I do find myself using a lot more rudder input than I have ever needed in the sim, since the patch, and I can see how others without pedals could be at a disadvantage. I especially dont know how the "Twisty stick" flyers control their planes at all... !

I can only conclude that since I am able to keep things steady, then others should be able as well, after all we are playing the same game. The only difference is we all have different input setups...

Does this make sense to anyone but me?

crazyivan1970
06-23-2005, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
Criminey!

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the P51, P38 and P47 were stable gun platforms. Plus, it's only been discussed in a couple thousand books and articles at the least. But in FB land, selected a/c wander and bob about like they are on a set of marionette wires.

But hey, you folks must know something the aviation world does not. Carry on.

I guess tracks are pointless, any kinds of in game evidence are pointless. I see group of people that have their mind set on something and they wont change it. I am done with this issue.

F19_Ob
06-23-2005, 08:13 AM
Don't give up yet Mr Crazy.


For those who experience too much bobbing up and down and to the sides when aiming and correcting, feel free to try full filtering in settings for all 3 axis to start with, and go down a bit in filtering from there if it's too stable, smooth or slow in movement.

If U have twiststicks (like me) U have to count in that it wants to return to center, wich causes swaying, but this is a stick issue not the game.

BTW I fly my p47 even a bit smoother than in Mr Crazy's tracks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

crazyivan1970
06-23-2005, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by F19_Ob:

BTW I fly my p47 even a bit smoother than in Mr Crazy's tracks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I have no doubt that you do mate. I have a little time in P-47 during beta testing.. maybe 30 min tops. And i didn`t trim at all when i was recording... What puzzles me the most... people claim something i take my time and check, before i report an issue... i don`t find anything, post track and they don`t even bother to look. Still claiming there is an issue. What gives? Complaining just for a sake of complaining?

F19_Ob
06-23-2005, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Ob:

BTW I fly my p47 even a bit smoother than in Mr Crazy's tracks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I have no doubt that you do mate. I have a little time in P-47 during beta testing.. maybe 30 min tops. And i didn`t trim at all when i was recording... What puzzles me the most... people claim something i take my time and check, before i report an issue... i don`t find anything, post track and they don`t even bother to look. Still claiming there is an issue. What gives? Complaining just for a sake of complaining? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He he I saw now that my claim came out a little braggy and @sshatty, wich wasn't my intention. Just to say that it's possible to fly very smooth and pretty similar to the posted filmclip.

Our different sticks and settings likely play a major part in the cause of the differen't claims and that's understandable even.

I'm infact surprized I can fly as smooth as I do since my stick is not new and not even USB
(Microsoft sidwinder FFB ).
The range of the twiststick is very short and to expect a fluid movement I thought was too much to ask of it, but its ok.
On the 3 first parameters I also have set to zero on all axis and the rest on a slow climbing scale.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Abbuzze
06-23-2005, 08:48 AM
Nice movie indeed, it clearly shows that the 0.50 is undermodelled... just take a look at 2.03min.
Try this in FB! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

BUT also take a look at 2.20 when the FW is so close that it is out of convergance... even under the fire of the 0.50 it don´t disintegrate... while the plane that is going down, is hit farther away - it is going down with structural failure while being hit at the convergance point!

crazyivan1970
06-23-2005, 08:52 AM
You guys want to see what you want to see. Then more i read this forum, then more i am convinced in that. Take a look at my track file and see what 50s did to G10, looks alot like that 2.20 and that`s not even from P-47, from P-51

BSS_Vidar
06-23-2005, 09:45 AM
Wow, this took a weird turn.

The issue of stability is not with gun recoil. It's the 3-4 oscilations after each and every in-put of rudder. i.e, put a tad of rudder in, 3-4 oscilations occure, take the tad of rudder out (back to neutral), 3-4 oscilations occure. When you get into a turn-n-burn with someone, the oscilations never stop, therefore, you're prayin'-n-sprayin'. The P-47, (Corsair is the worst) as well as all the other allied aircraft in the game, were much more stable gunnery platforms than this.

Watch the video and see if the nose ever bounces left and right 3-4 times after each movement. It's as steady as a rock.

Airmail109
06-23-2005, 09:47 AM
Ivan your right to many on these forums have polarized views.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

crazyivan1970
06-23-2005, 09:50 AM
Vidar, show me in that TRK where i had 3-4 oscilations? I did some rudder input here and there, some times full rudder. I am confused, really. You said look at the steady gun platform in the video... which we don`t have in the sim... now it`s oscilation... but even then TRK shows no oscilation. Uless you want me to yank that rudder hard and let it go... sure we can sqeeze some oscilation that way. But that will happen to any plane.. even to TB-3 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Lixma
06-23-2005, 10:04 AM
Watch the video and see if the nose ever bounces left and right 3-4 times after each movement. It's as steady as a rock.

Vidar, please point out the parts of the video that show the P-47 manouvering . After multiple viewings i've yet to see any. I can see 4 seconds of possibly relevant in-cockpit footage; none of which show any kind of manouvering. What are you seeing ?

GR142_Astro
06-23-2005, 12:19 PM
Ivan, you are missing the point completely.

Completely.

crazyivan1970
06-23-2005, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
Ivan, you are missing the point completely.

Completely.

I don`t think you guys even know what you want. What`s the point that i am missing? Enlighten me. Please.

LeadSpitter_
06-23-2005, 01:49 PM
is there any reason my post was removed ivan?

I watched the tracks and is stable by user input.

What vidar is speaking about is the occalation before centering.

Make a track of kicking the rudder full right or left and then let go for it to center itself.

It will sway back and forth 5 times before centering.

This goes for all US aircraft except the p-38.

Now with russian ac, japanese ac, german ac and british ac except the beaufighter which does the same as the US aircraft 5 full sways back and forth then centers, the other ac will sway back and forth only one time then return to original position immediatly, this is what vidar is speaking of, maybe its something people with rudder pedal do not notice becuase they have a huge control advantage.

All i can say is go test it for youselves kick rudder full right then let go instead of controlling it slowly, then do the same to the left and you will see what vidar is speaking of.

I also think they need to look into how much rudder input is inducing a stall in certain aircraft which will do the instaflop if using more then 25% rudder in a bank even when speed is past 560km/h while other can have full violent 100% motion without a stall in a bank.

crazyivan1970
06-23-2005, 01:53 PM
So..in other words... why American planes behave like that if you yank the stick real hard. Ok, that clears it up.

Now, which post are you talking about? i didn`t remove anything.

LeadSpitter_
06-23-2005, 02:00 PM
Not stick yanking but pressing full rudder then letting go to center itself automatically.

I wrote pretty much the same thing above on page one after your postedthe tracks in which I viewed. But for some reason it did not go thru I guess, I came back to see who responded and noticed its not there.

crazyivan1970
06-23-2005, 02:04 PM
Weird.. maybe forum hickup

BSS_Vidar
06-23-2005, 02:25 PM
Lead,

Might want to check it again. It does not have to be full rudder deflection. ANY deflection of rudder at all, and the nose oscilates 3-5 times. It even oscilates after releasing rudder input back to center-line. I don't have a twisty-stick controller, I use pedals.

P-47 is bad, but like I said earlier, the Corsair is the worst "after" rudder input of any kind.

It's not my controllers because the action itself is smooth, just the oscilations after and deflection of any input is stopped or released.

JV44Boelcke
06-23-2005, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
is there any reason my post was removed ivan?

I watched the tracks and is stable by user input.
Make a track of kicking the rudder full right or left and then let go for it to center itself.

It will sway back and forth 5 times before centering.

This goes for all US aircraft except the p-38.

Now with russian ac, japanese ac, german ac and british ac except the beaufighter which does the same as the US aircraft 5 full sways back and forth then centers, the other ac will sway back and forth only one time then return to original position immediatly, this is what vidar is speaking of, maybe its something people with rudder pedal do not notice becuase they have a huge control advantage.

All i can say is go test it for youselves kick rudder full right then let go instead of controlling it slowly, then do the same to the left and you will see what vidar is speaking of.

I also think they need to look into how much rudder input is inducing a stall in certain aircraft which will do the instaflop if using more then 25% rudder in a bank even when speed is past 560km/h while other can have full violent 100% motion without a stall in a bank.



What vidar is speaking about is the occalation before centering.
Kicking full rudder then releasing to center....um, uh...why? What u are describing is called P.I.O(Pilot Induced Oscillations), which is the cause of many tragic accidents. The idea is to apply a wee bit of pressure and watch the inclinometer yaw-centering ball, not whirling the tailfeathers out of yaw line and wondering that it oscillates....

VW-IceFire
06-23-2005, 02:58 PM
I flew it last night for about 30 minutes in a dogfight scenario and I had no issues....

BSS_Vidar
06-23-2005, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by JV44Boelcke:
What vidar is speaking about is the occalation before centering.
Kicking full rudder then releasing to center....um, uh...why? What u are describing is called P.I.O(Pilot Induced Oscillations), which is the cause of many tragic accidents. The idea is to apply a wee bit of pressure and watch the inclinometer yaw-centering ball, not whirling the tailfeathers out of yaw line and wondering that it oscillates....

No sir,
What we are seeing is not PIO. These oscilations take place after a single movement of the rudder-no matter how much deflection is executed, whether it's putting in rudder, or releasing rudder back to neutral, then waiting for the plane to steady up on the new rudder setting. PIO is when the pilot continuously inputs control, but is lagging behind the aircraft's responce. In other words, he's chasing the plane. Also, PIO mostly takes place about the pitch axis, not the yaw axis like we're seeing in the game.

In aviation terms, the STATIC STABILITY about the virticle axis is terrible.

Ice,

I can still plug the bad guys in a Hog or Jug. But it's a chore getting the guns to bare. If you're having no nose oscilations to the left and right, I want your copy of the patch. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Lucius_Esox
06-23-2005, 10:52 PM
Listening to people speak on comms online there seems to be a few having problems similar to what is being spoken about here, some even talking about giving up flying the sim because they cant get it right.

Whether or not the new FM models this close to reality is something I cannot comment on having never even flown a real plane, let alone a w/bird.

I can comment on ingame performance though vis a vis previous FM's.

I have flown the sim every day (almost http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) since it came out and would consider myself of average ability.

I use a FF2 with twisty handle. I've never even so much as looked at my j/stick settings, I use what it comes with, which is probably not a very good thing to do.

After some hilarious attempts at taking off/shooting straight/getting out of stalls etc with the new FM, I'm now used to it.

I'm just gentler with how I use the rudder now, especially when releasing it and have adapted to damping the effects with my own input.

It's fine for me now and I must stress I'm average. He11 most of us been flying the game for a long time now, whats the problem? If I can do it with my setup with me at the helm (I'm a 47 yr old middle aged old f*rt btw)anyone can,,,, practise more !!!

I'm not even sure what is being discussed here lol..


S!

LeadSpitter_
06-24-2005, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by JV44Boelcke:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
is there any reason my post was removed ivan?

I watched the tracks and is stable by user input.
Make a track of kicking the rudder full right or left and then let go for it to center itself.

It will sway back and forth 5 times before centering.

This goes for all US aircraft except the p-38.

Now with russian ac, japanese ac, german ac and british ac except the beaufighter which does the same as the US aircraft 5 full sways back and forth then centers, the other ac will sway back and forth only one time then return to original position immediatly, this is what vidar is speaking of, maybe its something people with rudder pedal do not notice becuase they have a huge control advantage.

All i can say is go test it for youselves kick rudder full right then let go instead of controlling it slowly, then do the same to the left and you will see what vidar is speaking of.

I also think they need to look into how much rudder input is inducing a stall in certain aircraft which will do the instaflop if using more then 25% rudder in a bank even when speed is past 560km/h while other can have full violent 100% motion without a stall in a bank.



What vidar is speaking about is the occalation before centering.
Kicking full rudder then releasing to center....um, uh...why? What u are describing is called P.I.O(Pilot Induced Oscillations), which is the cause of many tragic accidents. The idea is to apply a wee bit of pressure and watch the inclinometer yaw-centering ball, not whirling the tailfeathers out of yaw line and wondering that it oscillates.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes beolcke this is exactly what vidar and I are explaining to ivan. The question is why do the aircraft mentioned above have the 5 oscillations back and forth but the russian, german and japanese ac only sway back and forth 1 time side to side then return to original position is what we are trying to determine.

Im all for it staying because its more realistic but should be on the other ac as well, even more so on aircraft without rudder trim and lighter aircraft.

Maybe less for the more stable gun platforms like the fw190, p47, p38, p51, USN aircraft, la5 and 7 and for the lighter ac like the yak lagg3 109 ki43 and zeke which were historically much lighter, effected by, propwash, slipstreams, turbulence and recoil more.

They were not very stable gunplatforms compaired to the heavier aircraft which were had excellent gunplatforms being much more stable in flight.

Do you agree or disagree with that Boelcke.

JG54_Arnie
06-25-2005, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by Abbuzze:
Nice movie indeed, it clearly shows that the 0.50 is undermodelled... just take a look at 2.03min.
Try this in FB! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


Haha yes, they show .50's firing and the next shots are buildings exploding, planes blowing up.. it must be undermoddeled. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Snoop_Baron
06-25-2005, 06:52 PM
The question is why do the aircraft mentioned above have the 5 oscillations back and forth but the russian, german and japanese ac only sway back and forth 1 time side to side then return to original position is what we are trying to determine.

You guys should really test and posts tracks before making your claims. Spend less time posting and more time testing...

I just tested the following planes and made tracks since the tracks weren't forth coming.

I tested these planes:
F4U-1A
P38-L Late
FW-190-A8
Zero 1942 model
P-51B

*All* planes tested had more than one oscillation after releasing full left or right rudder. This directly contradics your claims.

Some planes had larger oscillations than others. I haven't tested with enough planes to say exactly what are all the factors. There could be many weight, rudder authority, speed, engine torque, etc. But it definetly is not something specific to American planes.

One interesting observation is that the Zero which I picked for its lightness was the tamest of the group even though it to had multiple oscillations. Is lighter better for this (less inertia?)? Does it just have a poor rudder?

Also note that the zero torque P38 also oscillates multiple times just like all other planes tested.

Is there anything wrong with multiple oscillations in general? I'm not qualified to answer this but someone like EcoDragon could help.

You can get the tracks here:
http://www.snoopbaron.com/aircombat/RudderTests.zip

Regards,
Snoop

thefarb2
06-25-2005, 09:19 PM
Original Il2 was like boat, one automatic oscilation. up or down or left or right.

VW-IceFire
06-25-2005, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JV44Boelcke:
What vidar is speaking about is the occalation before centering.
Kicking full rudder then releasing to center....um, uh...why? What u are describing is called P.I.O(Pilot Induced Oscillations), which is the cause of many tragic accidents. The idea is to apply a wee bit of pressure and watch the inclinometer yaw-centering ball, not whirling the tailfeathers out of yaw line and wondering that it oscillates....

No sir,
What we are seeing is not PIO. These oscilations take place after a single movement of the rudder-no matter how much deflection is executed, whether it's putting in rudder, or releasing rudder back to neutral, then waiting for the plane to steady up on the new rudder setting. PIO is when the pilot continuously inputs control, but is lagging behind the aircraft's responce. In other words, he's chasing the plane. Also, PIO mostly takes place about the pitch axis, not the yaw axis like we're seeing in the game.

In aviation terms, the STATIC STABILITY about the virticle axis is terrible.

Ice,

I can still plug the bad guys in a Hog or Jug. But it's a chore getting the guns to bare. If you're having no nose oscilations to the left and right, I want your copy of the patch. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I will send it via FAX http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Short story I had that may interest.

I had some issues with 4.0 to 4.01 install so I went and uninstalled and cleaned everything. Forgot to save my Joystick config...which was stupid. And I forgot about my custom settings so I went to fly and all of the sudden I had a Corsair an Jug swining back and forth all over the place. Default rudder sensitivity settings are 100s across the board while I had a slow progression setup to make things less sensitive.

Turns out I put my old setings more or less back in place and the excessive sway is gone again.

It does sway but only if I really mash the twist stick (I have MS Precision Pro 2, same as FF2 without the FF). So I wonder, I know you guys have been over this...but this is like night and day I think.

Besides, you want excessive sway and lack of a stable gunnery platform? Go fly the Jug back in 1.01 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fehler
06-26-2005, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
ac like the yak lagg3 109 ki43 and zeke which were historically much lighter, effected by, propwash, slipstreams, turbulence and recoil more.

They were not very stable gunplatforms compaired to the heavier aircraft which were had excellent gunplatforms being much more stable in flight.

Do you agree or disagree with that Boelcke.

OK Lead, please explain to me how having guns attached to the heaviest, densest portion of a plane like in the Bf109 is less stable than having them mounted in a flexable wing?

If you can explain that, then tell me why they decided to mount all the guns of a P-38 along the centerline of the plane? Why not mount them in the wings? And why then did the pilots that flew the P-38 say that the positioning of the guns made for one of the most stable platforms in WWII?

Me thinks you should sit upside down so you stop talking out yer ****.