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View Full Version : Would opening yer cowl flaps do this in R/L........?



Mjollnir111675
11-15-2004, 08:01 PM
I believe I have found a way to get yer draggin @$$ off the flight deck quicker.
In combo with messin with yer flaps(no porn relation ladies!!) I have found that if I open cowl/armor flaps at take off it :
1) increases drag but....
2) Gives a pilot incredible lift on short take -offs!!

It gets me tail up about 20-30 feet maybe more???(and on a flattop thats a whole lot!!) faster than with it closed.I am nopilot but it seems that if ya can get the tail up before you leave the deck than you can use the elevators sooner.So my question to any pilot: is this accurate?I dont care fer historys sake but is this a common method fer take-off?Does it really happen??If not I dont know how I'll ever get off the top with a load.

Thank you,
Mjollnir

VF15_Muto
11-15-2004, 08:27 PM
It shouldn't give you any extra ability to get off a 'shorter' deck if CHT is low enough, BUT it is absolutely necessary to have cowls open from start-up all the way through takeoff and climb. Standard procedure before takeoff was to rev the engine high for several seconds to ensure engine integrity ... this generated a lot of heat. Then back down again to reduce CHT again before revving up and rolling ... also generates a lot of heat. As does climbing...

Crack 260 degrees during any of this and ... "SPLASH" ... out comes a tin can to pick you up (if you survived the ditch).

But extra thrust for takeoff with a normal CHT? Nope.

Mjollnir111675
11-15-2004, 08:48 PM
Thank you very much fer the reply Muto.
It just "feels" like its not quite landing flaps but a lil better than take off.Like I said it just seemsto raise the tail quicker.Maybe everyone could fiddle with it and post results. I have tried and it seems that even with a load it raises the tail quicker in effect giving control of elevators SOONER.

VF15_Muto
11-15-2004, 11:13 PM
You should get no such 'feeling'. Having cowl flaps open add a minute amount of drag, probably unnoticeable, to the aircraft but should not improve take-off ability (aside from the obvious purpose of keeping your CHT cool) or elevator control at all.

S~!
Muto

Troll2k
11-16-2004, 02:56 AM
Might depend on the plane.If they use the butterfly radiator flaps on the rear of the wing the lower one might add some lift.

Schmouddle-WT
11-16-2004, 04:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Troll2k:
Might depend on the plane.If they use the butterfly radiator flaps on the rear of the wing the lower one might add some lift. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and the upper one will negate all the lift generated by the lower one plus something extra.

LW_lcarp
11-16-2004, 04:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VF15_Muto:
Standard procedure before takeoff was to rev the engine high for several seconds to ensure engine integrity and ... "SPLASH" ... out comes a tin can to pick you up (if you survived the ditch). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to sure if the rev up is for engine integrity. As I was told they do it to set fuel mixture rates and such. And if she blew during that time then i guess it could be for that also

munnst
11-16-2004, 06:29 AM
Engine power checks.
Normally to check for mag drop, oil pressure, manifold pressure etc.
Just before take off on a carrier max power would be required for take off.

dragonhart38
11-16-2004, 10:06 AM
I could only get my weapon loaded F4U ( 8 Hvar rockets and 2 tiny tims) off the deck with 25% fuel. Any more fuel and I was taking a bath in the pacific.

M_S_W
11-16-2004, 12:00 PM
I finally am able to get the corsair off the carrier with rockets and tiny tims by turning and moving to the back of the carrier (if not already there)(also hoping someone doesn't respawn at the rear of the carrier while I do it....lol), re chocking, turn throttle to full, unchocking, about 75% of the way down the flight deck hitting flaps from raised to landing and raising gear as soon as plane clears the deck. Both times I made it, but barely and this was on a stationary carrier online.

M_S_W
11-16-2004, 12:01 PM
Oh, and it was 50% fuel when I did it.

dragonhart38
11-16-2004, 01:45 PM
I downloaded an offline mission from netwings. My RN MK.IV corsair was first in line of 3 lines of corsairs so I was not at the back of the carrier but closer to the superstructure when I had to launch.

Fliger747
11-16-2004, 07:01 PM
A serious problem in the GAME is lack of wind over the deck. 25 knots was a bare minimum for almost any ops, and more was desireable for non catapulted lunches with any loads.

Engines were warmed up to operating temperatures in order to allow them to withstand the thermal stress of full power takoffs and high power climbs. Indeed if the #13 cylinder in an R2800 hit 260 C, she was toast, often in a spectacular and final fashon.

In real life, no advantage to having the tail up too early, it's airspeed when you reach the end of the deck that matters, not much else. Some planes may blanket the rudder a bit to start with and need the locked tailwheel to prevent an initial swing. Not a problem of much import in the game.

darkhorizon11
11-16-2004, 07:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fliger747:
A serious problem in the GAME is lack of wind over the deck. 25 knots was a bare minimum for almost any ops, and more was desireable for non catapulted lunches with any loads.

Engines were warmed up to operating temperatures in order to allow them to withstand the thermal stress of full power takoffs and high power climbs. Indeed if the #13 cylinder in an R2800 hit 260 C, she was toast, often in a spectacular and final fashon.

In real life, no advantage to having the tail up too early, it's airspeed when you reach the end of the deck that matters, not much else. Some planes may blanket the rudder a bit to start with and need the locked tailwheel to prevent an initial swing. Not a problem of much import in the game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats not necessarily true, the tail wheel in a sense drags on the carrier deck. Although its a wheel it still creates a little bit of drag. Also with the force vector of the engine is pointed straight and parallel with the relative wind instead of on a downward angle towards the deck. This does make a difference in RL although its probably not modeled in PF. Flaps decrease lift off speed but also create more drag increasing takeoff distance. Takeoff flaps represent happy medium of both. Slower speed at liftoff, but still good acceleration. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

oFZo
11-16-2004, 07:30 PM
You can get a lead Corsair (with seven behind it) off the deck with Tiny Tims and Hvars and 50% if you use landing flaps. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I usually take off with rad on 4, opening it more when climbing.

VF15_Muto
11-16-2004, 08:01 PM
40 knots wind over the deck for take offs and 35 knots for landings were ideal.

30 knots minimum for takeoffs, so if there was no wind, carrier would go all ahead full through entire launch cycle to generate 30-knot WOD.

25 knots was tolerable for landings.

S~!
VF15_Muto

killer2359
11-16-2004, 08:30 PM
I don't know about what impact open cowl flaps might have on takeoff - but Fliger747 is quite right there's really no advantage in working to get the tail up earlier - the tailwheel drag on deck vs tailplane flying drag will pretty much match - and in fact having the tailplane "faired" to airflow (tail end running on tailwheel) until it lifts itself - as opposed to using down elevator into the airstream to lift it - is probably less drag.

If the tail is comming up earlier itself then there's obviously some improvement to acceleration happening - so whatever is helping then keep doing it!

effte
11-17-2004, 06:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fliger747:
In real life, no advantage to having the tail up too early,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, that must have been a typo. Getting the tail up is essential, as you are otherwise

a) Directing your thrust upwards while trying to travel horizontally, which is wasting power.

b) Dealing with the drag of the wing at a high angle of attack during the entire take-off roll, rather than having it at or close to the minimum-drag, zero-lift AoA.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>it's airspeed when you reach the end of the deck that matters, not much else. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. And to maximize airspeed, you need to maximize power and minimize drag. Thus, get that tail up.

Regards,
Fred

effte
11-17-2004, 06:51 AM
Incidentally, I did a bit of research on the drag of cowl flaps on the F4U-1D at low speed the other day. At slightly below 130 mph on the ASI (201 kph avg/2 kph std. dev., logged through DeviceLink €" yes, there is a discrepancy), the result was very clear. There is no difference in drag between having the cowl flaps fully open and fully closed at low speeds. The resulting climb rates were -5.2 m/s in both instances, with a standard deviation of 0.8. The tests were done as power idle descents from 3000 to 1500 m.

These were preliminary tests, basically intended to test the equipment and methods for upcoming mapping of performance. The methods have in no way been refined, neither for testing nor for analysis, but the results on this were clear enough to be considered conclusive anyway. Be warned though, the figures are not reliable due to timing problems which had to be artifically corrected!

High-speed drag and Ps tests are next.

Cheers,
Fred

JG77Von_Hess
11-17-2004, 08:56 AM
Thx for the Info in the last post there Effte http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Regards.

VH.

Fliger747
11-17-2004, 11:51 AM
Been flying real airplanes for 32 years now, including lots of taildragger time on stuff a lot shorter than a carrier deck!

On a Carrier it is essential that on initial power application that the tail not come up (tailwheel is locked) or it will swing, not enough rudder authority. Drag from tailwheel friction is negligible on a deck. Drag from full rudder application is much more! As the plane accelerates the tail will rise on it's own accord and should be allowed to do so for minimum drag. The game does not model torque effects well, so one can get away with almost anything here. As the plane leaves the forward edge of the deck, then positive stick action will be needed to effect a rotation to a flying attitude as (1) the plane is no longer suported by the deck and needs to transition from min drag to max lift (2) the aircraft leaves any 'ground effect' it had while on deck and needs additional angle of attack to compensate for loss of lift, if it is available.

I am not suggesting a three point takeoff, just cautioning against forcing the tail up. Directionally, in the game, control is not an issue. In real life it was! The real aircraft had specific trim settings for takeoff. Those of you who 'flew' 1% CFS2 aircraft off of carriers perhaps remember this. they were good settings!

initjust
11-17-2004, 12:32 PM
"Those of you who 'flew' 1% CFS2 aircraft off of carriers perhaps remember this. they were good settings!"

Yes sir. Some still do and they were/are good settings.

VF15_Muto
11-18-2004, 12:50 AM
Agreed! Although the carrier landings in PF are a blast and get the heart pumping, carrier takeoffs in CFS2 with 1% planes simply can't be beat. After 2.5 years of flying 1%, I still get a thrill from every single carrier launch...

S~!
VF15_Muto

Fliger747
11-18-2004, 01:36 PM
It's independants such as AVhistory that have run with the otherwise initialy somewhat lackluster MS products and made long lived, excellent sims out of them.

I realize that the online aspects, with differing and possibly 'cheat' planes was a problem, which the IL crowd has tried to avoid by limiting options to those oficially provided. This is a boon to some and a bane to others.

I really liked many of the fine CFS3 birds that Have been created, such as the 1%, but not CFS3 itself so much. Anyone want to se what the state of the art in FS9 birds is, try Guy Hulin's Corsair F4U-7/AU-1!

Having a blast with PF and waiting to see where it goes!