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XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 10:02 PM
Oleg, I noticed that you slowed the trim movement in FB to a snail's crawl.

This was because people were complaining to you about people turning harder than them using trim.

Fortunately for people who like to turn harder using trim, you didn't change a thing about how it can make one turn harder.

Since trim is just the elevator in this game, people can recalibrate their joysticks and do "bat-turns" (the hardest turn possible) at will. They can fly level and hands free, yet do "bat-turns" without even touching the trim.

So you see slow trim has been a colossal failure. It didn't solve anything. People who like to adjust their trim are mad. People who recalibrate to do "bat-turns" are at an even greater advantage than before. So you have alienated a good portion of the flyers and solved nothing.

Time to admit what you did to trim was wrong and change it to the way it was in IL2. This way, it is a more level playing field and all pilots have better control of their aircraft.



"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

Message Edited on 10/02/0307:18PM by RayBanJockey

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 10:02 PM
Oleg, I noticed that you slowed the trim movement in FB to a snail's crawl.

This was because people were complaining to you about people turning harder than them using trim.

Fortunately for people who like to turn harder using trim, you didn't change a thing about how it can make one turn harder.

Since trim is just the elevator in this game, people can recalibrate their joysticks and do "bat-turns" (the hardest turn possible) at will. They can fly level and hands free, yet do "bat-turns" without even touching the trim.

So you see slow trim has been a colossal failure. It didn't solve anything. People who like to adjust their trim are mad. People who recalibrate to do "bat-turns" are at an even greater advantage than before. So you have alienated a good portion of the flyers and solved nothing.

Time to admit what you did to trim was wrong and change it to the way it was in IL2. This way, it is a more level playing field and all pilots have better control of their aircraft.



"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

Message Edited on 10/02/0307:18PM by RayBanJockey

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 11:00 PM
Not that I mind, RBJ, but your thinly-disgused hope for trim to come back to the way it was, leads me to believe the "RBJ Shift" is not all it's cracked up to be./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I use my X45 rotary for elev trim and haven't looked back since FB came out.

The one thing you touched on that is fascinating to me, is that joystick setup has so much to do with this game, that someone who leaves the sliders at default, is going to have a hard time with the "Aces". Each stick is different and those who don't know how to setup their stick is in for a whuppin'!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Oh, and here's a few more for ya, RBJ, since I know you like them soooooo much.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 11:34 PM
New option = Trim On/Off.

That'd sort it out.


Lixma,

Blitzpig.

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 12:40 AM
Trim is too essential to flying to be completely removed.

They just need to work out the physics of trim's effectivity at high speeds and all will be well. It's been almost two years that we've had it this way and I'm beginning to think they can't change it without messing up other things.

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 12:56 AM
Trim is quite OK now, no need to touch it!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 01:24 AM
CHDT wrote:
- Trim is quite OK now, no need to touch it!
-
- Cheers,


Dude what is your deal? First you hate IL2 trim, then you say you would rather have the old trim back, and now you say trim is fine?

Talk about wishy-washy.

Sure trim is fine! Let the people do their bat-turns and screw over those who want to adjust it with precision. It couldn't be better right? *pukes*



"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 01:32 AM
Uhm... I'd use that trim and stuff... But I'd be pulling 9G's for too long and probably tear my wings off. Trim is scary! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 01:33 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- Oleg, I noticed that you slowed the trim movement in
- FB to a snail's crawl.
-
- This was because people were complaining to you
- about people turning harder than them using trim.
-
- Fortunately for people who like to turn harder using
- trim, you didn't change a thing about how it can
- make one turn harder.
-
- Since trim is just the elevator in this game, people
- can recalibrate their joysticks and do "bat-turns"
- (the hardest turn possible) at will. They can fly
- level and hands free, yet do "bat-turns" without
- even touching the trim.
-
- So you see slow trim has been a colossal failure.
- It didn't solve anything. People who like to adjust
- their trim are mad. People who recalibrate to do
- "bat-turns" are at an even greater advantage than
- before. So you have alienated a good portion of the
- flyers and solved nothing.
-
- Time to admit what you did to trim was wrong and
- change it to the way it was in IL2. This way, it is
- a more level playing field and all pilots have
- better control of their aircraft.
-
-
-
-
- "The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace
- said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was
- still a newbie.
- news update (http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.p
-)
-
- Message Edited on 10/02/03 07:18PM by
- RayBanJockey



then what the hell are you complaining about?

"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

MicroSoft Most Wanted
http://www.angelfire.com/empire/the-aztek-eagles/oleg.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 02:08 AM
Aztek_Eagle wrote:
- then what the hell are you complaining about?


Do you think I enjoy beating newbies/people who play full real who don't know how to overcome slow trim? I want this game/sim to be better.

Give everybody the ability to use trim, not just the exploiters.

I have a hard time recommending this game to my friends when trim is so screwed up. There is a reason alot of people are mad at FB, and slow trim is the main culprit here.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 03:02 AM
OFGS Not this again...

The guy just can't take a hint /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Forget trim, give us the ability to switch off icons on track playback and cockpit view for all aircraft in playback so I can make better movies....

Trim on a slider (yawn)...

Didn't you hear Oleg the first time?
This topic has been completely and totaly exhausted and you can start counting now until the mods lock it.
You won't get to a high number... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

<center>http://www.appy55.dsl.pipex.com/FB/squigsig.jpg

Buzz_25th
10-03-2003, 03:26 AM
Riddle me this Ray.

In another thread, Slick said all the aces are using trim to do bat turns. Let's assume this is true.

You are the self proclaimed ace of aces. Let's assume this is right too.

Why don't you just fly against the aces? There's plenty of them now. Why are you flying against noobs?



Personally, i'd like to just see auto trim to end all this crap.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
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XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 05:18 AM
Trim is defianatly porked when you think your trimmed out oh wait it just move on me again. I think there are other ways to do the trim then slowing it down to a snails pace.

Cause trim was used in all flying conditions now it takes half the flight to get your plane trimed and then. Then you try to trim out for landing well i didnt need those wheels cause you over trimed the wrong way. Maybe they need to set the trim to the trim tabs and not the elevators so that you can adjust it to do what its supposed tpo do but we end up with forever trim.



"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann "Karaya One"

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 06:55 AM
Lixma wrote:
- New option = Trim On/Off.
-
- That'd sort it out.
-

I go with the Trim on/off option idea in servers.I never use trim until lately since I can not get my nose pointed properly if guy ahead is doing bat turns.Oleg please consider this option.

As for everyone getting on RBJ well you gotta admit that he is honest and just wants the best performance from his plane.Then he says that he hates to have such an advantage against non-trim newbies and you really realize that the trim is taking much away from the realism.

Then you have guys that say they dont use bat turns and use trim to level out for flight.What?!?!Are you flying to combat zone for hrs NO.Your getting airborne and hitting trim 40 times for an advantage in dives.With the trim on/off option you can play in servers with this and also cheat your butt off in your offline games.

Buzz_25th
10-03-2003, 07:26 AM
Wolfstriked

You think FB is nothing but HL dogfight servers? That's a very small part of the big picture.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 08:16 AM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- Wolfstriked
-
- You think FB is nothing but HL dogfight servers?
- That's a very small part of the big picture.


I know its more than just dogfight servers.I really feel that we should get an option to turn off the unrealistic trim in every area of FB.Wouldnt you love to get on an LA7's tail from a high speed dive and know that the pilot will have a hard time pulling out of this dive.It makes the flying and matching your strategic options against the strength/weaknesses of your enemies planes a futile attempt.

That said I am now converting and will soon have new tactics to use even though I hate it and feel it takes way too much away from the sim/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 08:34 AM
While using the slip indicator is helpful, trimming an aircraft for slip-free, level flight is largely a function of 'feel'. The pilot can feel his aircraft's position in the airstream based on the physical feedback he's getting. Based on this feel he moves the trim adjustments until the aircraft flies as clean as he/she desires. Moving trim adjustments means taking the hands off of something else.


What is missing in IL2 and IL2:FB IMHO is some type of additional feedback to the virtual pilot regarding the trim state of the AC. Next, I'd wager to say that the current movement isn't all that realistic in terms of the time delay. Any delay in effect from movement of the trim adjustment to actual control surface movement on the AC should be caused by physics and not gameplay balance. What should be limited, however, is the ability to adjust the trim too quickly or efficiently. Requiring CTRL and a direction arrow to be pressed is pretty good, imho, in terms of removing one hand from other duties while trimming. Make it so that trim always requires multiple keys to be pressed and no analog inputs (eg, sliders, wheels, etc).

So in summation I feel that the following could improve the use and realism of control surface trimming in IL2:FB.

1. Reduce time delay between input and action

2. Require multiple key presses (e.g. ctrl + dir arrow) and disallow re-mapping the trim keys to all non-keyboard devices such as trim wheels, sliders, or other overly efficient means of adjusting trim that do not accurately reflect the pilot's workload for making trim adjustments.

3. Provide more feedback to the pilot regarding trim and slip in the pitch, yaw, and roll axis as applicable (some ac don't have trim adjustment in all axis)


This is just my opinion.
=]

!S and thanks for reading.



Message Edited on 10/03/0307:35AM by Bully_Lang

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 10:35 AM
"Dude what is your deal? First you hate IL2 trim, then you say you would rather have the old trim back, and now you say trim is fine?"


Trim currently is far from being realistic, but "bat turns" seem less noticeable now than some months ago. Bat turns still can be done, but they're less nervous. So that's why I said it's "ok" for me.

But the real way to solve definitely this problem, and having also a fast and precise trim like to wish, would be to put G-limits for the airframe. For instance, you use elevator trim in a dive or in a curve at high speed, bingo, wings gone!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 12:33 PM
hi,
agree Lixma..and to all Arcade Jim Joystick gamers...
+ automatic trim.. On/Off...

by the way ..have a look at X-Plane features in this case..I guess it's more near real FM ..



Lixma wrote:
- New option = Trim On/Off.
-
- That'd sort it out.
-
-
-
- Lixma,
-
- Blitzpig.
-

JerseyD
10-03-2003, 01:15 PM
This is the one and only issue I back RBJ on 100%

Sloth trim is just a band-aid to cover up the real problem.

But thanks to the uninformed mob mentality that swept this forum awhile back lead by a bunch people using inferior joysticks us x45 and CH users are left with semi functioning trim knobs. Thank you K-mart shoppers/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Funny how the trim still works exactly the same way in WW2OL as it did in old IL-2 and no-one over there ever complains about it.
And trust me they complain ALOT there.

That's because WW2OL doesn't suffer that FM error that gives bat turn ability to those who trim hard. It works like it's supposed to and if Oleg had taken the time to actually fix that problem rather than simple gimping trim like this we wouldn't even have to be having this discussion right now.

I guess from a business standpoint he did the smart thing by "Seizing the Day" as it where.
He had all the propaganda working in his favor after all. Uninformed people where crying Trim Cheat This and Trim Cheat that, when in fact they should have been crying Oleg please fix how trim affects turning.

Anyway he must have saved lots of time and money by ridding FB of this diabolical "trim cheat" but in the long run all he did was hobble his own masterpiece to quiet the mob of uninformed low cost joystick owners.

Personally I already have enough physical injuries that I have to be reminded of every day when I try to do something I used to do with ease before those injuries. Now I have to deal with this new injury that FB has suffered to trim, great!!!



<Center>http://home.cfl.rr.com/jerseydevil/JerseyDevil's%20Frag%20Zone/Frag%20Zone_files/109chevysig.jpg (http://www.mudmovers.com/Sims/IL2/il2_skins_sports.htm)</center>

J¨rsé¿D¨v*L

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Message Edited on 10/03/0308:43AM by JerseyD

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 02:03 PM
Just implement structural distortion/failure under high G loads kept too long. Set 9G limit to snap wings or rear fuselage.





-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 02:54 PM
The only a/c I really 'fly' are Kurt tank's a/c and it is known that re-trimming in flight was nil or almost nil for these a/c. Why does FB require constant re-trimming for the Fw's?

Another thing I noticed that the German a/c require constant trim changes and it is almost impossible to get the correct trim setting in level flight at a constant speed while with the VVS a/c one can trim for level flight VERY easily. (please test to see if what I say is correct)


http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/west-battleline.jpg



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 03:16 PM
There's still one big problem with trim how it's right now. It's not the speed but the control. Depress the trim up button for example to trim for about 2 seconds, then release it. Now it trims further even if you don't press it anymore, that's just annoying. You can't hit your wanted setting there and have to readjust it several times. And hacking the button down 50 times isn't a solution either.

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 04:54 PM
yep here i must agree with RBJ; if I trim my Dora 16times upwards I can turn harder but this Trimming cost a bit of Levelspeed . So on LW Planes you are trimming all the time.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/kubanskiloewe/110missing.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 05:25 PM
In reality you put the stick to where the plane flies right and then adjust the trim to where you don't have to hold the stick in place and the stick doesn't move. You know you've trimmed when the stick isn't pulling or pushing your hand. It takes a certain amount of time to trim from one end to another.

In IL2 it takes a certain amount of time to trim from one end to another but from there all similarities end. You don't have any feel whatsoever how the trim is affecting the controls and the controls must be moved while the trim is being applied even after you have your hand off the trim control! If you have done trim right then your stick will be at center. This is a neccessary limit to the hardware but just how it is made to work is not one of the strong points of the sim.

Since I have no feel while adjusting trim and can have none without a super-FFB stick, I wish very much to be able to place the stick to where the plane flies right (as in real) and then hit a key that will trim the plane to that position in time. Meanwhile I can back off on my stick as trim applies and know that when it ends I will have right trim and not some frikking guesswork and corrections by guesswork!

I know that in reality when I change the controls the plane flies different, the speed will be different and the trim will need to be readjusted... but now we have to ride the trim making constant BLIND adjustments back and forth the whole time. With 1 key to match trim to stick position we still will have to retrim with the results of changes made, but at least it won't be guesswork. As it is there is "skill" involved but it is "skill" at something not real at all so becomes an exploit of the sim and favors those with better control systems because turning a slider you at least know where the #ell you are ending up! The REAL skill is in adjusting the controls properly, not in turning the wheel but in knowing when the force on the stick is removed. IL2 replaces that with something very much different.

And Guys? G forces breaking the plane? Over 6 G's and the pilot should be "broken" for a good while. The stick should not only not respond but should go to last trimmed position as the unconscious pilot whould no longer hold it at all. Only a damaged plane should break before the pilot will!


Neal

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 05:50 PM
JerseyD wrote:
- This is the one and only issue I back RBJ on 100%
-
- Sloth trim is just a band-aid to cover up the real
- problem.
-
- Funny how the trim still works exactly the same way
- in WW2OL as it did in old IL-2 and no-one over there
- ever complains about it.

And in every other sim I've played where trim was modelled.

- That's because WW2OL doesn't suffer that FM error
- that gives bat turn ability to those who trim hard.
- It works like it's supposed to and if Oleg had taken
- the time to actually fix that problem rather than
- simple gimping trim like this we wouldn't even have
- to be having this discussion right now.

Yep, it seems other sims can incorporate trim without suffering from bat-turns. If all else fails an auto trim, which would trim the ac straight & level at the current IAS would be adequate. It wouldn't be realistic in that it would be easier to use than the real thing, but it would achieve what you attempt to do with trim and would not be any use in a turn. You would also need to retrim with speed changes, like RL.

Kernow
249 IAP

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 06:11 PM
Trim movement like in IL2 would solve most of your problems.

Then there is instant feedback to what you are changing, regardless if you have a force feedback joystick or not.

Auto-trim is a conundrum. It really doesn't make sense. Bad side effects would be the auto-trim fighting your joystick when you don't want it too.

Just make the trim move 1:1 with the device it is attached to. For an analog controller this would mean how it was in IL2. For the buttons it would mean no more of this (FB) "push the button for 3 seconds, sit and wait for trim to stop moving for 7 seconds".

How the game/sim feels is very important to the users and this slow lagging trim is simply not good.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 06:20 PM
Hi Ray! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Hasn't that ol' drum your beating fell apart yet? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers,
<CENTER>http://www.319th.com/p-51big.jpg</CENTER><CENTER><font size="+1"><div style="width:500;color:#FF2211;fontsize:11pt;filter:shado w Blur[color=red,strength=2)">73h /\/\u$7@/\/6 |*\/\//\/-/_ j00</div></center></font><FONT color="#59626B">[b]

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 08:45 PM
I thought that something like this would be great too.Use joystick to angle plane to desired level and just press a button once and when you release the stick the plane is automatically trimmed.But this doesnt fix the pullout at high speeds bug that trim enables.This is just taking alot away from FB for me.

Lets get Oleg to give us a trim option so that we can fly in servers that have it and everyone knows about it or a server that has trim turned off so its an even field.

wrote:
- In reality you put the stick to where the plane
- flies right and then adjust the trim to where you
- don't have to hold the stick in place and the stick
- doesn't move. You know you've trimmed when the
- stick isn't pulling or pushing your hand. It takes
- a certain amount of time to trim from one end to
- another.
-
- In IL2 it takes a certain amount of time to trim
- from one end to another but from there all
- similarities end. You don't have any feel
- whatsoever how the trim is affecting the controls
- and the controls must be moved while the trim is
- being applied even after you have your hand off the
- trim control! If you have done trim right then your
- stick will be at center. This is a neccessary limit
- to the hardware but just how it is made to work is
- not one of the strong points of the sim.
-
- Since I have no feel while adjusting trim and can
- have none without a super-FFB stick, I wish very
- much to be able to place the stick to where the
- plane flies right (as in real) and then hit a key
- that will trim the plane to that position in time.
- Meanwhile I can back off on my stick as trim applies
- and know that when it ends I will have right trim
- and not some frikking guesswork and corrections by
- guesswork!
-
- I know that in reality when I change the controls
- the plane flies different, the speed will be
- different and the trim will need to be readjusted...
- but now we have to ride the trim making constant
- BLIND adjustments back and forth the whole time.
- With 1 key to match trim to stick position we still
- will have to retrim with the results of changes
- made, but at least it won't be guesswork. As it is
- there is "skill" involved but it is "skill" at
- something not real at all so becomes an exploit of
- the sim and favors those with better control systems
- because turning a slider you at least know where the
- #ell you are ending up! The REAL skill is in
- adjusting the controls properly, not in turning the
- wheel but in knowing when the force on the stick is
- removed. IL2 replaces that with something very much
- different.
-
- And Guys? G forces breaking the plane? Over 6 G's
- and the pilot should be "broken" for a good while.
- The stick should not only not respond but should go
- to last trimmed position as the unconscious pilot
- whould no longer hold it at all. Only a damaged
- plane should break before the pilot will!
-
-
- Neal
-
-
-
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 02:17 AM
i dont use trim for combat and i still get one of the best scores most of the time


"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

MicroSoft Most Wanted
http://www.angelfire.com/empire/the-aztek-eagles/oleg.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 02:54 AM
Wolfstriked wrote:
- I thought that something like this would be great
- too.Use joystick to angle plane to desired level and
- just press a button once and when you release the
- stick the plane is automatically trimmed.But this
- doesnt fix the pullout at high speeds bug that trim
- enables.This is just taking alot away from FB for
- me.

Trim was used to pull some planes out of high speed dives, as the survivors attested! But it takes time and effort when the controls are stiff. Maybe that is what IL2 needs, to regulate the speed of trimming by the amount of backforce being trimmed against?

You see, if I have to move the stick and then press the key to get trim to be applied with a realistic delay then my pilot has to be able to pull that much control in the first place. To get any more pull range I have to wait for the auto-trim to be applied. As it is now, I can tap or hold the key down, or move a slider, while pulling the stick and viola I have my bat turn. So what I suggest with the 1 key trim would make that slower and more difficult while at the same time giving us back legitimate trim use that isn't a matter of blindly counting key taps and fighting an interface.


- Lets get Oleg to give us a trim option so that we
- can fly in servers that have it and everyone knows
- about it or a server that has trim turned off so its
- an even field.

Trim turned off? All planes fly with neutral trim always? you know that in IL2 you can never get near full speed that way?


Neal

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 04:05 AM
I don't do 'bat turns' (do bats really turn faster?)

however, I did like the responsiveness for trimming my aircraft in Il2 better than FB.

I'd prefer the older method, just don't allow quick changes in trim, but keep the precision trim fast.

thanks.

S!
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XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 04:38 AM
It's a bit slow, but overall I can't say that I find it that bad.

I've flown real planes that have taken considerably longer to move from one trim extreme to the other, so the speed in that respect doesn't bother me so much.

As for the rest of the complaints, I can only assume it's really a problem when trimming with the keyboard.

I've got my trim set on the antenna rotary on my Cougar, which has a center detent. That center detent is neutral trim. In the P39, for example, I know that typical combat speeds/conditions require about 1/8" - 3/16" of nose down trim, so when I get into normal flight I just bump the rotary "forward" about an eighth of an inch and forget about it.

It takes a second or two for the trim to get there, but it always gets there, and it's always the same when it does. Once you've found the level trim setting for an aircraft all you have to do is remember it and then set for it when you need it, just like in a real aircraft.

The only time I really touch the trim in combat is if I find myself needing excessive stick pressure to maintain level flight, or if I take damage that requires retrimming of the plane - such as wing damage - where a bit of opposite rudder trim works well to keep the plane level.

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 08:25 AM
WWMaxGunz wrote:
- Trim was used to pull some planes out of high speed
- dives, as the survivors attested! But it takes time
- and effort when the controls are stiff. Maybe that
- is what IL2 needs, to regulate the speed of trimming
- by the amount of backforce being trimmed against?

But when this happened it was because the planes experienced compressibility.This isnt modeled in FB since you can pull out of any dive at any speed in FB.Also,when they did use trim to help pull out,it seems like they slowly(very slowly)were able to turn the trim wheel just enuff to barely level out before impact.In FB you get full elevator authority.


- You see, if I have to move the stick and then press
- the key to get trim to be applied with a realistic
- delay then my pilot has to be able to pull that much
- control in the first place. To get any more pull
- range I have to wait for the auto-trim to be
- applied. As it is now, I can tap or hold the key
- down, or move a slider, while pulling the stick and
- viola I have my bat turn. So what I suggest with
- the 1 key trim would make that slower and more
- difficult while at the same time giving us back
- legitimate trim use that isn't a matter of blindly
- counting key taps and fighting an interface.

Once again I see the only way to fix this issue of unrealistic trim modeling,lack of compressibility and lack of airframe overload stress damage is by removing trim completly.This of course with an option to do so since many here will go nuts without their trim.Now for the realism buffs who will say that they need it to fly level hands off comfortably....its funny that they need this considering that a real plane will ease off 10/20pounds of pressure when trimmed at full speed and what do our home joysticks give....1 maybe 2 pounds for the long flights.Your poor arms/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


- Trim turned off? All planes fly with neutral trim
- always? you know that in IL2 you can never get near
- full speed that way?

I cant agrre or disagree with this statement since Ive never found more speed when trimmed in FB,but this very well could be.

XyZspineZyX
10-05-2003, 07:06 PM
Uff, Monotheman strikes again... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif (Ain't he heavy?)

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -



http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612322300

</span></blockquote></font></td></tr>

XyZspineZyX
10-05-2003, 07:28 PM
am i correct in thinking u can get "free" extra turning/lift/dive ablity with trim?
if so thats wrong, should the fm be modeled on the movement of the control surfaces
as for trim to get out of rl, i belive in that, u gonna try everything to not hit the ground, and trim shouldnt move surfaces much, so its like leverage i guess
perhaps limit trim untill u get certain damage
like wing mentioned earlier

XyZspineZyX
10-05-2003, 09:06 PM
let it die oleg corrected the trim which is even sightly faster then it should be.

Get it thru your thick RBJ skull it will not change

http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

RichardI
10-05-2003, 11:48 PM
One word : Autotrim

Rich /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<Center>http://www.ghosts.com/images/postimages/THUNDERBOLT.jpg <Center>I've got 140 109's cornered over Berlin!

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 02:27 AM
Oleg slowed down the trim because people were complaining that other people were using trim to out-perform them. If it wasn't for a bunch of complainers trim would be the same.

But it's already been proven that people can still turn just as hard as ever with trim, and there are ways around slow trim.

Real pilots like Bud Anderson said he used trim all the time and it was like a radio dial, and it made turning easier.

So now it's an even more unfair playing field than before, because simply going to the HOTAS and assigning trim is not enough now. Now people have to to extra modifications to their joystick in order to PERFORM the best.

And people who enjoyed using their trim before are now unhappy with the way trim moves. If you like the new trim, you are in the extreme minority. Not only is it too sluggish but the buttons don't even work right. You press the button for 3 seconds and it moves for 10 seconds after that. What??? And during that 7 seconds if you push the trim other way button nothing happens!! What??

It's all screwed up and the best thing to do is give everbody the ability to turn their trim easier. It's about balance, feel, and gamplay.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 01:46 AM
supergreg - you crack me up !

extreme minority ? count me in as one of them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

do you fly p11´s exclusively ?
what is the need for this extreme stick pressure on the elevator ?
are you one of those easy targets that turn at low alt doing 300km/h like you are stuck on a roundabout in heavy Paris traffic ?

i use pitch setting 1 2 4 8 16 32 48 64 80 100 and i rarly move the elvator hard at all .... pardon me for specializing in low-G high-speed manouvers but when i do turnfight i find that i never need full elevator for any manouver ... not even in the p11 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif after i moved to another country and left my cougar i now only trim with keyboard and its just fine - no big deal. what is the problem ? sometimes i forget where the trim is and then i just hit shift-up and trim again .... terrible pilot workload huh...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif big deal having to hit the key 15 times while holding ctrl ... takes 2-3 sec !

do you fly with no blackouts ? in addition to only playing wonder woman 2 : forgotten forum-clowns

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 02:08 AM
I fly all settings and all styles. Please don't act like turning performance is insignificant. It is one of the fundamental performance characteristics of a plane that determines tactics and effectiveness, whether you are turning and burning or booming and zooming.

Now that "only those in the know" can use trim like it was in IL2, the FB arena has reached an new plateau in "have's and have-nots". Furthermore anybody who flies like a real ace like Bud Anderson, is constantly changing trim. Bud Anderson said he would use constantly like a radio knob, and that it helped turning in hard turns. Anybody who enjoys using trim is not happy with this slow lagging trim in FB.

I wouldn't be so mad if there was no advantage to recalibrating the stick/forces to fly level but with near full back elevator. BUT THERE IS. Slow trim in FB has divided the online community like never before, and the best thing to do is to make it move 1:1 with the device, letting everybody use it and enjoy it equally and with ease (like in IL2).

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 02:46 AM
you act like this is some sort of well thought out social injustice that has been forced upon us !

like some sort of nazi-regime !

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 07:26 AM
Ray, lets cut to the chase here...

You, and several others, want your trim cheat back, because now you can't game the sim...

I'm not fooled, and no one else is either.

You want the original IL2 trim back because when used as you do it decouples energy bleed from the FM of the aircraft, It is a cheat...and so are you.

Go away.

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 12:41 PM
LMAO YOU Foolish Mortals........

You dont need trim in this sim to kick arse....

You simply need altitude and lots of practice I dont need to turn on a dime to frag you ill use a hammerhead manuver & fill ya full of lead..... dont need trim for that /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Beyond that the combat flaps work very well and if you dont yank the stick you can rip off some very quick turns when needed utilizing combat flaps....

Also the trim is fast enough now to combine with combat flaps for critical turns....

& no a on/off selection for trim is not the answer I would be peeved if I had to constantaly hold my stick foward to achive level flight @ high speeds

Think about it !!!

P.S. I would mind having the old 1l2 style trim it was much more realistic than this slomotion version in FB but either way your still gona get whaked trim or no trim /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<CENTER> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1065290873.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 12:44 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
-
-
-
- Personally, i'd like to just see auto trim to end
- all this crap.
-


Auto Trim Buzz ?

Was there such a thing in WWII ?

<CENTER> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1065290873.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 12:50 PM
Wolfstriked wrote:
-
- I go with the Trim on/off option idea in servers.I
- never use trim until lately since I can not get my
- nose pointed properly if guy ahead is doing bat
- turns.Oleg please consider this option.
-
- As for everyone getting on RBJ well you gotta admit
- that he is honest and just wants the best
- performance from his plane.Then he says that he
- hates to have such an advantage against non-trim
- newbies and you really realize that the trim is
- taking much away from the realism.
-
- Then you have guys that say they dont use bat turns
- and use trim to level out for flight.What?!?!Are you
- flying to combat zone for hrs NO.Your getting
- airborne and hitting trim 40 times for an advantage
- in dives.With the trim on/off option you can play in
- servers with this and also cheat your butt off in
- your offline games.


You must be High or something ?

I dont take off & use trim to turn LOL I take off & get massive altitude & when your diving @ 800kmh or 1000kmh from high altitude you need trim !!!! To keep the ac nose down. I hate holding the stick foward not to mention it screwes up your aim.....

I dont think they had a Trim on/off option in WWII...

Think about what your saying !!!


Just because you can turn sharp dosent mean your good try learning how to fly and some real manuvers instead of yank & bank & trim wont be an Issue whatsoever !!!

You guys kill me with this Stuff



<CENTER> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1065290873.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 12:55 PM
Wolfstriked wrote:
-
-
- That said I am now converting and will soon have new
- tactics to use even though I hate it and feel it
- takes way too much away from the sim/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
-
-

Why dont u try using Altitude and speed and real manuvers to beat your oponent

Turning is so Overrated....

They make these things called combat flaps they work too u know ?

<CENTER> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1065290873.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 01:03 PM
Question 1:

Is it possible that the trim range in FB is too large?

The Fw had +2/-3 and the Me +1/-4 degrees of trim change. At -3(-4), is this enough to do a "bat turn"? I could be wrong, but I think not. In normal level flight the trim would be set to a 'negative' position (-1 or -2), thus the amount of trim available for the "bat turn" would be even less.


Comments???

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/west-battleline.jpg



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 01:06 PM
That Horse is dead, and even buried already. Perhabs we should shoot the Rider.

Rayban******, Oleg said NO CHANGES TO TRIM. Is your english so badly lacking that you have a problem understanding these 4 words?

You ain't going to get your trim cheat back. What you call "performance" really means gaming the sim, and I dont have any soft feelings for the cheats like you who do that. Perhabs, instead of complaining that bat-turning is too hard for newbies now, grow up and stop using these cheats yourself. Voila, problem solved, level playing field.

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 01:09 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Question 1:
-
- Is it possible that the trim range in FB is too
- large?
-
- The Fw had +2/-3 and the Me +1/-4 degrees of trim
- change. At -3(-4), is this enough to do a "bat
- turn"? I could be wrong, but I think not. In normal
- level flight the trim would be set to a 'negative'
- position (-1 or -2), thus the amount of trim
- available for the "bat turn" would be even less.
-
-
- Comments???
-


I think your on to something there....

I dont think that all AC in ww2 had the same triming range as they do in fb (most anyway)

<CENTER> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1065290873.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 01:17 PM
MUAHHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA


I think I finaly Know who you are RBJ muahahahahahahahahahha


I shall keep your secret !!!

Winter
no icons
padlock inabled
Markings only

Ring a bell ? LOL


You are an ACE !!!

RBJ has many good points but the simple fact is that you dont need bat turns to be good in this sim....

but you do need trim

<CENTER> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1065290873.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 01:32 PM
I agree with you RBJ. In fact, trim is a crucial way to make up for uneven damage in your wings, or tail, etc... It takes me minutes to adjust what normal pilots could have done in seconds, not only is this unrealistic, it is less helpful.

Boosher-PBNA
----------------
<center>It's your fault... <center>
Boosher-ProudBirds-VFW
http://www.uploadit.org/files/220903-Boosher%20Sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 04:25 PM
Wow. Since I last posted there have been alot of uninformed pilots who don't know whats up posting alot of rubbish.

Here is whats going on:

I can still turn just as hard as in IL2 using trim, and the thing is, I don't even need to move the trim hardly anymore. So you see, the trim problem has got worse. Sure Oleg has slowed down the trim movement speed, but movement is insignificant if you are already there.

There was only 1 change to trim and it was to slow how fast it moves. There was no change to the effect.

Since trim in this game is just the elevator all one needs to do to be able to turn even better than in IL2 (because the trim is already there) is to recalibrate their stick/spring and thus fly (level and hands free yet) with trim almost all the way back. Then one will have have as the newbies who never use trim before refer to as "instant-bat-turns".

Now I will tell you that I am an ace who knows whats going on in the online dogfight arena, and being able to turn in this way is an advantage any way you slice it. As an ace who enjoys using complex controls however I do not mind extra things that enable one to perform better. I DO mind when an inadequate solution (slow trim) that only results in annoying anybody who uses trim is implemented and this can be easily overcome with semi-extraneous exploits.

IL2 trim was better, it was more pure, and the playing field was level. In FB, the difference between trimmers and non-trimmers has NEVER been greater. There are fewer trimmers but they are alot better, because the average person can't just use it freely with their slider anymore.

So no I don't "want my cheat back". The "cheat" (as you refer to it) is still there and more alive than ever. This is why slow trim was a failure. It didn't solve anything and angered people who like to use trim. Oleg, you need to make trim move 1:1 with the controller, whether it be analog (slider) OR buttons. Give everybody (and not just the exploiters) the ability to move their trim as they see fit.

This is one of the major reasons this sim is going downhill, because like trim, it is getting more and more detached from the players. You can't lag out a controller like this and expect people to not notice the disadvantages to feel. REAL pilots never experienced controller lag, they moved the controller and when they stopped moving it, IT stopped. Slow trim is a failure to realism and gameplay.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

Message Edited on 10/07/0311:34AM by RayBanJockey

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 11:54 PM
IJG54_Nowi wrote:
- That Horse is dead, and even buried already. Perhabs
- we should shoot the Rider.
-
- Rayban******, Oleg said NO CHANGES TO TRIM. Is your
- english so badly lacking that you have a problem
- understanding these 4 words?
-
- You ain't going to get your trim cheat back. What
- you call "performance" really means gaming the sim,
- and I dont have any soft feelings for the cheats
- like you who do that. Perhabs, instead of
- complaining that bat-turning is too hard for newbies
- now, grow up and stop using these cheats yourself.
- Voila, problem solved, level playing field.



Dude you cant see the Forest through the Trees.......

Rayban is right about this altho the trim has slowed down it still has the same effect as in Il2 so therefore nothing has changed from Il2 to FB you only think it has....

Hes trying to Enlighten your dim perception of the problem but you are so focused on il2 trim that you cant see the real problem LOL....

I use trim alot in FB mainly to keep my AC Fast and straight
Im not into turning & turning & turning & turning....

Turning is Over-rated but when I do Turn I use Combat flaps assisted with some trim 10 trim taps to be precise This is not a cheat its in the game its available to all just press the dam buttons & you can do it too......

But imo I think that trim should be returned to il2 style it was better overall....


The Funnyest thing about all of this is that turning is what gets you killed the fastest in most cases learn to use real tactics such as Altitude adv. Real manuvers like sizors roling sizors Split-S Elman Spiral climbs then combine them together into a lethal air dance of Death & you wont need the Dam Trim turn @ all


Muahahahahahahahahahahahaaaahhahaha


KILL YOU LATER !!!!!





<CENTER> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1065290873.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 12:03 AM
HEY EURO SNOOPY, THUNAK, TULLY, RBJ AKA VENGENCE PLZ LOCK

http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 12:16 AM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- HEY EURO SNOOPY, THUNAK, TULLY, RBJ AKA VENGENCE PLZ
- LOCK
-
Yeah, completely pointless post. You guys must accept that when the game developers say they are not going to change something That is it! Final!

Take the Flogging a dead horse and whining threads elsewhere



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