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View Full Version : Flaws of planes - why dont they get fixed ever?



XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 12:39 PM
hi,
i have been playing the game since IL2 came out. i have flown simulators since the Commodore age, i have seen a lot.

but now it is really getting on my nerves.

we were asked to hand in bug reports in a hope to get the problems fixed. many people did so, the team would have had to just scrool thru these comments and implement them in the game. but they did NOT do it!

several things have been untouched yet warned of many times since IL2 times, just to mention but a few:

it is not whining, just quoting facts:

-complete inability and malfunction of the german propeller governor system: the way it is now, it is worse than not having it...all planes fly slower, see an incredible drop in performance when function is activated. why is it than that planes showed a step forward that were using this system? in the game this function is everything but advantage.
-propellers never get overrev in a russian plane, no matter what pitcj setting is used, to the contrary, hop into a german plane and you see it for yourself - no comment
-icredible differences in planes performances - take a look at the I-16. if i am not mistaken, its climb speed was close to 1000 m/s but surely not more. and this can outclimb the 109F, which had more than 1200 m/s climb? come on.
-the utter lack of overheat in russian planes compared with the german ones - no comment, try it

i am a bit tired of hearing the usual "learn to fly and use the correct tactics" jive! there is no way that a rata climbs faster than an emil! and there is the lagg3 issue brought up by Mahgar.
it is very hard to believe that it is this difficult to make thing right.

take documents - from several sources - try to get independent test results and base the performance on these values.

if any VVS pilots can please put together a list that contains never corrected flaws for german planes, feel free to do so.

let me help you a bit:

-elevator effectiveness of FW190 - which quite interestingly, according to sources was notably light and easy.

so, any ideas?

what i dont understand is why is it that there are these obvious facts and no one cares about them?

"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 12:39 PM
hi,
i have been playing the game since IL2 came out. i have flown simulators since the Commodore age, i have seen a lot.

but now it is really getting on my nerves.

we were asked to hand in bug reports in a hope to get the problems fixed. many people did so, the team would have had to just scrool thru these comments and implement them in the game. but they did NOT do it!

several things have been untouched yet warned of many times since IL2 times, just to mention but a few:

it is not whining, just quoting facts:

-complete inability and malfunction of the german propeller governor system: the way it is now, it is worse than not having it...all planes fly slower, see an incredible drop in performance when function is activated. why is it than that planes showed a step forward that were using this system? in the game this function is everything but advantage.
-propellers never get overrev in a russian plane, no matter what pitcj setting is used, to the contrary, hop into a german plane and you see it for yourself - no comment
-icredible differences in planes performances - take a look at the I-16. if i am not mistaken, its climb speed was close to 1000 m/s but surely not more. and this can outclimb the 109F, which had more than 1200 m/s climb? come on.
-the utter lack of overheat in russian planes compared with the german ones - no comment, try it

i am a bit tired of hearing the usual "learn to fly and use the correct tactics" jive! there is no way that a rata climbs faster than an emil! and there is the lagg3 issue brought up by Mahgar.
it is very hard to believe that it is this difficult to make thing right.

take documents - from several sources - try to get independent test results and base the performance on these values.

if any VVS pilots can please put together a list that contains never corrected flaws for german planes, feel free to do so.

let me help you a bit:

-elevator effectiveness of FW190 - which quite interestingly, according to sources was notably light and easy.

so, any ideas?

what i dont understand is why is it that there are these obvious facts and no one cares about them?

"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 12:51 PM
big bump here. i posted something similar yesterday here. but i don't think any official will respond to our posts. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

2 things we need in FB:
The 110 and the desert!!!
http://exn.ca/news/images/1999/04/23/19990423-Me110coloursideMAIN.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 01:31 PM
Good Post Plebanos.
How are thingas in good old Hungary these days my friend?

S!
Chris

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/WAR-08.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 01:45 PM
Well it has been so for two years.. we just have to accept, that it is a game made by Russians, so ofcourse they favour their country .. FB is still the best game on the market. There is no competition for FB.. Fortunalety 1.11 has corrected most issues with VVS-dominance, but I do agree - there is still much to be done..

1.11 is a step back in many ways.. I-16 is a flying fortress again. like it was in 1.0.. 1.1B fixxed this, but 1.11 destroyed this.. Lagg3 has been stayed in same way for very long time without fixxed.. and many other issues.. German MG17 is still a waterhose .. Just try to enjoy the game.. these things are unlikely to be fixxed, it has been proven in these last two years..


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XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 01:49 PM
Plebanos wrote:
--propellers never get overrev in a russian plane, no matter what pitcj setting is used, to the contrary, hop into a german plane and you see it for yourself - no comment

Are you aware of the fact that all allied planes in the game use constant speed props? I don't know if it's correct that it's impossible to damage the engine regardless of what you do, but what I know is that these things were designed to prevent overreving.

--icredible differences in planes performances - take a look at the I-16. if i am not mistaken, its climb speed was close to 1000 m/s but surely not more. and this can outclimb the 109F, which had more than 1200 m/s climb? come on.

Well, I'm taking a look at the climb data of the I-16 24 and the Bf-109 F-4, using Youss excellent compare tool, and what I see is that the I-16 has a better climb (by about 3 m/s) than the 109 at sea level. This gap closes quickly with altitude, and from 1800 m on the 109 clearly outclimbs the I-16. I don't have a clue if this is right or wrong, but I'm afraid that these are the facts you have to deal with, just a general complaining about better climb of the I-16 does not do the trick IMHO.

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 01:52 PM
Anyone have any ideas of why when an a/c seems to be modelled (FM, DM) as it did in RL, is then reverting back to an old modelling with a new patch?

Me thinks the code has become a real big mess and needs a thorough clean-up. This is not a pratical option though >> $$$$$./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 01:54 PM
hi chris455 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif , it is okay, though weather has turned really gray durin tha past days.

i am hoping to take some passangers for a long (1,5 hours) sightsseing flight tomorrow. i hope weather doesnt get too bad. thats my biggest concern now.....

and i bought some cool books recently, the one on marseille by kurowski. excellent, marvellous.


and you, any nice kills in the FW? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



csaba




"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 01:58 PM
well, i dont have this magic compare utility, i just read books. and they say that there was a considerable dif between the climb performance of hese two planes.
there might not be so a big dif between emil and rata, but surely there is a big one bw friedrich and the rata.

i will look in the books and bring the results in here.

plébános

"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 02:02 PM
Well, our Wurger certainly is a heartless killer now! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
But.............my new love is the P-47. What a dream. Like a big American sportscar!

How is "our" girlfriend doing? You know, the one with the SC500's /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif !

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/WAR-08.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 02:41 PM
hm, she is doing fine. she will go to brussels for some days for an EU conference.

she works for the govmnt dep. .....

have a good weekend, i am leaving th eoffice now

good to talk to you

csaba

"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 05:28 PM
very good posts think more people are realising these serious issues which are spoiling the game...

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 05:49 PM
Gershy wrote:
- big bump here. i posted something similar yesterday
- here. but i don't think any official will respond to
- our posts.

I myself started 2 threads recently:


http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zusfi

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zursg


In one of them the second one down oleg gave this reply regarding 109's climb:Sorry to say, 109s climbs a bit better in Fb then it should. All 109s....

And soon I will again will fly myself online with my 109s.

And in the other replys like (you are full of crap) courtesy of heart c.

For me oleg is loosing credibility fast...

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 09:51 PM
Things don't get fixed because people don't know what they want - it's always changing, especially when people read something and they take it as gospel and ... why should they fix things anyway?

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 01:41 AM
Problem with that compare tool is it doesn't account for rad effects restricting top speed in things like the 109's. Additionally, the speed it gives is lower than what I get in the LaGG using the same test (and the LaGG doesn't overheat.) Nice tool, but it doesn't work for some things.

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 03:24 AM
For example, the K4 top speed appears correct, but to reach it you would have to destroy the engine.





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XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 03:36 AM
Fix it? I'd settle for not busting it a bit more every time. Game played real nice in beta, I've kept a copy up for off line play, at least both sides could put up a fight.

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 07:12 AM
Hell, none of the climb rates are right. Everyone I've tested climbs too well... Doesn't answer the problems with the LaGG's and La-5's not overheating or outperforming their historical speeds...while the 109's overheat and fail to achieve historical values.

Objectivity is not Oleg's strong point.

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 07:26 AM
Wrong though most planes might be, the errors seem to distribute themselves evenly between the Axis and Allied sides.

The La-7 has its 16 seconds turn, like the G2 has its extraordinary performance. The LaGG-3 DM is messed up, just like the FW-190 DM is messed up. The P-47 will break down and lose controls, just like the Bf-109 will break down and lose controls.

Considering how the FMs seem to change as if by random in every patch, its proably more due to lack of time or effort that these things stay wrong, rather than deliberate intent.
Maybe problems with the way the game is written make it difficult to patch in a timely manner.

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XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 09:42 AM
The single biggest problem with making or allowing big expectations is then LIVING UP TO THEM.

The 109 may climb better than somebody's unseeable numbers, but the Rata apparently gets a super boost in climb as do many other planes that should not beat the 109's that already got too much climb.

It would be so much easier if the data models could be put on some sort of complex-coded scales that would evaluate all the basics and then allow tuning on to the next. Then make a standard and chart all by that. Each plane would still have degrees of freedom as long as they affect the outcomes of the scales. Perhaps if a sim was made with that in mind?

DM's also would need to work to standards, not so loosely. I am amazed that DM's with is it 20 piece engines(?) can still come out with things like we see? A ton of details. Is it the models themselves? If the details are not very right across the board then you end up with flying tanks and/or paper planes. I am thinking that hit bubbles with well done damage probabilities are not so terribly bad! Not accurate in one sense and yet more accurate in others. At least those are easier to standardize, set and check without bankrupting a company. Again, with the right initial approach the better way would not be so hard as it is -- but all details would have to be known ahead or at least able to plug into the design as natural and no design changes.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 10:24 AM
Plebanos wrote:
- let me help you a bit:
-
--elevator effectiveness of FW190 - which quite interestingly, according to sources was notably light and easy.
-
- so, any ideas?

Every thing I have read indicates quite the opposite, that above 350mph the elevators on the FW-190 became quite heavy, to the extent that they limited combat effectiveness of the aircraft.

Reconcile that, why don't you.

I think the biggest cause of complaints about this game is pure lack of knowlege of the aircraft in question. Many people know, or think they know, a great deal about one or two aircraft, but we are talking about nearly 100 aircraft here including variants. Few people know that much about aircraft.

For example, did you know that the I-153 has twice the power the weight ratio of the Bf-109K-4, and has about half the wingloading?

Tell me again why it shouldn't out climb the 109?

To many people come on here with the ideal that this plane is uber or that plane is uber, and they insist that if it isn't made that way, that the Dev team is full of idiots, and can't possibly make a decent product if their lives depended on it.

Frankly, its getting old, and yes, I have been guilty of that myself on many occations. It's still getting old, and it's still stupid.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 11:44 AM
they dont seem to listen to the bug reports even with proof data charts etc. Seems to me they just said we are all beta testers to shut us up but seems like everything is done by the same people who keep making major mistakes and not checking out the whole product online and offline before giving it to us.

I sent them charts, real german guncam clips of how yaks and la7s break apart like zeros, and yak footage of 109 kills how they dont explode it in 1 hit but do burst in a fireball or loose wings and have secondary explosions

I sent naca charts on on 9 aircraft detailed tests which i paid for to get


but seems they dont care to listen to reality.

Everyone says they been rushed but 8 months, i think is more then enough time for fm tuning, they did a great job with the dirt effects, but sound is still bonked still hear guns firing and engines of crashed aircraft, the ship aaa which blew out my sony headphones $120 which ubi should pay me for http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and fms still seem way off compaired to british german and us testing.

they need to talk to the people from www.avhistory.org (http://www.avhistory.org) they are the #1 unbais realism experts, proving everything they say. fb really needs thier help


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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 01:53 PM
Hi Harry, I like your post but I do wonder if the I-153 kept much of that power above 2km alt. Did it have a supercharger, for instance?

I agree that many people don't know that much detail about the planes or don't consider well what they know. 109 climb time to whatever ceiling the I-153 had may have been much quicker but down low the biplane must have risen faster.
I still wouldn't expect to get much advantage out of the height with the low max safe speed unless the 109 driver was stupid enough to hang close by, though. Would you? And I wouldn't feel too safe if the 109 was able to get guns on me, either. Any 109.

Power changes at alt for all the planes with critical and optimal alts. I see a post comparing planes without alt info, I don't take it so seriously. Wingloading without power... consider the 109E vs the Hurri in the BoB. The 109 outturned the Hurri up above 8000 to 10000 ft (3km?) and the Hurri had the advantage down closer to 4000 ft (1.5km?) and esp down near SL. The Hurri I had the wingloading advantage but the engine and prop just didn't make enough thrust up high to turn a bad situation around without diving. I wonder where the I-153 became meat for the 109E-4 and if someone can drag up an anecdote about the 109 being better without bothering to mention the fight occurred at 5 or 6 km, maybe?

Oh, and with the speed advantage of any 109, I'd expect the I-153 to get nailed pretty quickly anyway. Climbing at speed in an I-153 vs at speed in a 109, the zoom from the 109 would outdo the I-153 for hundreds of meters. Six of one.... so maybe expect those after-action reports.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 11:55 PM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
- The La-7 has its 16 seconds turn, like the G2 has
- its extraordinary performance. The LaGG-3 DM is
- messed up, just like the FW-190 DM is messed up.

The G2 is far from extrordinary in this release. It is the fastest 109 up until the G6AS (historically correct), and it suffers less than other 109's in ways, but it is slower than it should be because of the overheat problem. It comes up well short of the compare program figures for sea level speed and rapidly slows as the rad opens. On the other hand the LaGG exceeds its specs and doesn't overheat. It's some sort of problem with overheat modeling vs. auto engine operation. The most accurate way to fly the patch right now is with engine overheat off.

The damage models seem to have trouble with LMG for the most part. I can kill 190's easily with 20 mm, but they are nearly invulnerable to LMG, just like the Pe-2 and many other planes. Other aircraft take damage rapidly from LMG. Yes, many parts of the 190 and other durable planes should not be vulnerable to LMG, but other parts should still fail. There are some glaring consistency issues with LMG. Doesn't matter as much with a 190, because usually its opponents have cannon and medium machine guns rather than LMG.