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Deep_Moby
12-16-2005, 05:40 AM
Does any of you knowlegable folk know the G values that cause black out for the various plane types in the game.
Are they all the same or different?
I'm mostly interested in the western fornt types.
Furthermore is there any real life data for AVERAGE pilot G resistance by aircraft type that any one has.

Thanks in advance

Deep_Moby (#402_Moby)

tomtheyak
12-16-2005, 05:49 AM
Hi squadmate!

Don't know what figures given for the ingame blackout limit but I'd hope its uniform across all a/c - unless geo-health models are used?!!

As for R/L it depends heavily on the individuals condition (height, posture, weight, proportions and especially fatigue/stress are VERY important) but the bottom limit seems to be about 5g with some naturally having a resilience as far as 8 or 9!! 5-6 is a general standard, tho a clench reaction (stiffening/tensing of abdomen and legs)can stave of G-LOC for another 1 or 2 at the most.

Hope this helps! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Deep_Moby
12-16-2005, 06:03 AM
Thanks mate,
I understand the differences body types etc etc can make on G resistance.
What I,m really after is values for an "average" pilot by plane type.
I guess it all comes down to seat design and pedal placement.
I would love to know what values are in the game and real life for blackout on each type.

Cheers

Deep_Moby

Kuna15
12-16-2005, 08:07 AM
I think G is the same on all planes. No difference. On some planes like P-51 or Spitfire you will black out faster due to more response on high speed (elevator).

Difference is in rw between pilots endurance (but there is certainly some fixed value no one can cross).

hamselv2
12-16-2005, 08:13 AM
If you want to see for yourself just run (while you are flying in IL2 Pacific Fighters) a DeviceLink application with G-force readouts.
It will only work offline.

dbillo
12-16-2005, 09:01 AM
I don't really know the answer to this, Deep_Moby, but I think you are correct that there may be variations due to seating posture. I would think that a seating posture in which the pilot was semi-reclined, and/or the legs are straight out from the hips would produce a higher resistance to G force blackouts. Off the top of my head, the only plane I can think of that might be like that is the He-162 Spatz, and even there I'm not sure. It seems that the pilots legs might be more horizontal in that one. Even so, it may not be modeled in the game at all.

Deep_Moby
12-16-2005, 09:57 AM
Reason I ask is that sometimes I am pursueing a bandit at the same speed or he is accelerating away in a tight turn.Then I grey , then black out.
My perception is that the bogey has a better G resistance, this is particulary the case in scissors.
Do I need to manage my high speed manouvering better or are there different values for each plane type.

Ps I usually fly spit/p51 on warclouds or spit v 109

Rgrds Deep_Moby

IL2-chuter
12-16-2005, 01:00 PM
As G comes on and blood is drained from the head, the first symptom is visual. The normal intra-optic arterial pressure is 20/25 mm. of Hg. and under loads as low as 2-3G peripheral vision is decreased due to retinal anemia. This leads to €œgrey-out€, a condition in which peripheral vision is progressively lost and central vision begins to lose its acuity. As the G load increases the retinal arterial flow is further reduced until €œblack-out€ occurs. At this point, although vision is absent, the cerebral blood flow is often maintained and the pilot may remain conscious. At 5-6G however most pilots become unconscious unless they are protected. This is referred to as G-LOC. (G-Loss of consciousness). When the G load is reduced, consciousness will be regained although there is often a brief period of confusion before full awareness is reached. If the G load is high and the onset is of short duration, G-LOC can occur without warning This has been determined as the cause of several accidents in high performance aircraft.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Cam/tp13312-2/section2/acceleration.htm

I've seen films of guys who lost consciousness at 2.5 Gs . . . this can't be accomplished in an centrifuge.

Chadburn
12-16-2005, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by hamselv2:
If you want to see for yourself just run (while you are flying in IL2 Pacific Fighters) a DeviceLink application with G-force readouts.
It will only work offline.

what value will give you g-force readout?

ronison
12-16-2005, 02:25 PM
"Deep_Moby
Reason I ask is that sometimes I am pursueing a bandit at the same speed or he is accelerating away in a tight turn.Then I grey , then black out.
My perception is that the bogey has a better G resistance, this is particulary the case in scissors.
Do I need to manage my high speed manouvering better or are there different values for each plane type."

Not 100% sure here but I think the reason is the AI cheats. The planes when flown by the computer do much better than a plane flown by a person in game. Many times I wonder how the bogy always seems to move only when I squeez off a burst but flys straight and level when I do nothing.

If this is happening on line against other pilots then it could be how fast they go into the turn vs you. Or how much reliefe they put in while turning. Reliefe meaning leting the stick out a bit so they dont black out entirely then halling back on it. If you do this you can pull a slightly tighter turn than someone just pulling back and holding it.

As for seat position unless you are totaly reclined I dont think it is going to make much diffrence, at least in RL. Your blood is still going to "weigh" more in a high G turn and in turn will flow down hill. In the case of a high positive G turn your blood is going to your feet and butt.

hamselv2
12-16-2005, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Chadburn:

what value will give you g-force readout?


I think it's this parameter in the DeviceLink.txt file in your game directory:


overload
52 get()
return: float [undefined] -inf +inf


More DeviceLink info:
http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=011755;p=

Further discussion of G forces in the game:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/201009607/p/3

Tully__
12-16-2005, 07:12 PM
Blackout is 5G. If you approach it gradually and go just over, you'll black out slowly. If you go straight to 8-9 G you'll black out almost instantly. If you've been recently blacked out (up to a minute in my experience) you'll black out more quickly than if you've been in cruise mode for several minutes.

Redout threshhold is very low, but I'm not sure of the exact figure. I suspect it's around -1G as you'll eventually redout if you just fly inverted and level for a while.

Chadburn
12-16-2005, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by hamselv2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chadburn:

what value will give you g-force readout?


I think it's this parameter in the DeviceLink.txt file in your game directory:


overload
52 get()
return: float [undefined] -inf +inf


More DeviceLink info:
http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=011755;p=

Further discussion of G forces in the game:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/201009607/p/3 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks hamselv2!

Kuna15
12-16-2005, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Tully__:
Blackout is 5G. If you approach it gradually and go just over, you'll black out slowly. If you go straight to 8-9 G you'll black out almost instantly. If you've been recently blacked out (up to a minute in my experience) you'll black out more quickly than if you've been in cruise mode for several minutes.

Redout threshhold is very low, but I'm not sure of the exact figure. I suspect it's around -1G as you'll eventually redout if you just fly inverted and level for a while.

Good info thanks @ T.

iirc vvs yak ace Tikhomirov (in FPSOLKOR's interview posted in PF forum) said that he never went above 3-4Gs in combat. Obviously they didn't liked that blackout thingy as we do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Also about redout I've noticed that too. I just invert my plane and few moments later I'm in 'light' redout.
Also when I flip over aircraft on landing, my pilot will be in redout in few moments.

I guess we can run a few 'red-out' experiments for ourselves just hanging upside/down like bats, however I'm really unsure if we will experience it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif.

Deep_Moby
12-17-2005, 03:23 AM
Lot's of great replies -- thx chaps
However what I am trying to find out is:-

All parameters (speed, turn radius etc) being equal will I black out easier in a Spit/P51 than a 109/190 -- for example.

I might have to try that device link thingy

Deep_Moby

Tully__
12-17-2005, 03:43 AM
Originally posted by Deep_Moby:
Lot's of great replies -- thx chaps
However what I am trying to find out is:-

All parameters (speed, turn radius etc) being equal will I black out easier in a Spit/P51 than a 109/190 -- for example.

I might have to try that device link thingy

Deep_Moby

They're all the same. If the speed/turn radius is the same, the G is the same and the pilots will black out the same regardless of type.

In combat you'll often find the guy behind is still shooting when you black out, but that's often because he is in a tighter radius turn but at lower speed (tighter radius = less distance to cover so he can be slower and still "keep up" long enough to get off a shot). The different parameters will cause him to be just under blackout conditions sometimes while you're just over.

Freelancer-1
12-17-2005, 04:26 AM
Originally posted by Deep_Moby:
Reason I ask is that sometimes I am pursueing a bandit at the same speed or he is accelerating away in a tight turn.Then I grey , then black out.
My perception is that the bogey has a better G resistance, this is particulary the case in scissors.
Do I need to manage my high speed manouvering better or are there different values for each plane type.

Ps I usually fly spit/p51 on warclouds or spit v 109

Rgrds Deep_Moby

Usually in a situation like this, you are turning with a smaller radius to either catch up (sustained turn) or get in behind (scissors). In both these cases the g-loading on you is higher than your opponent and you will black out sooner.

Also if your opponent is turning with a smoother hand on the stick (not reefing on it), he will black out more gradually.

And finally don't play on a cockpit off, external view enabled server. I won't explain why. Just trust me on this.