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hmkim
01-12-2006, 11:49 AM
According to a book that I'm reading, late Luftwaffe fighters such as the Ta 152 had a bullet-proof canopy. Then, why do the machine guns of American planes crush the canopy of my late Luftwaffe fighters and kill me? My understanding is that most American planes' were equipped with relatively weak 7.62mm machine guns. Shouldn't a bullet-proof canopy deflect those weak bullets?

Deadmeat313
01-12-2006, 12:02 PM
Er, most US aircraft were fitted with .50cal heavy machineguns as standard. The canopies would require a great deal of bulletproofness to stop those babies. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Remember, these things can 'KO Tiger tanks' etc etc etc. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The Germans did develop very heavily armoured aircraft later in the war which could take a severe pounding, but we have none of those in this sim. Basically they bolted armour plates onto the canopies and front fuselages of FW190s to make interceptors that were as armoured as tanks (and flew like such).

T.

LStarosta
01-12-2006, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by hmkim:
My understanding is that most American planes' were equipped with relatively weak 7.62mm machine guns. Shouldn't a bullet-proof canopy deflect those weak bullets?

Oleg shares your understanding.

LStarosta
01-12-2006, 12:07 PM
Jay kay...

They are very powerful when fired at convergance blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda.

OldMan____
01-12-2006, 12:16 PM
Several centimeters of high density glass can deflect a .50 bullet if on an apropriated angle (it WILL leave an nasty mark on it) Every common (non high tech AP bullets tanks use today) bullet above its " bite" angle can be deflected by an comon steel plate of 1/4 of its caliber.....

Kocur_
01-12-2006, 12:20 PM
Still, apart from heavily armoured Fw-190 A-7/8/R8, the sole truly armoured part of canopy of German fighters was windscreen.

berg417448
01-12-2006, 12:39 PM
I've noticed that many times when people use the term "bullet proof" the term they really ought to be using is "bullet resistant". You have to be careful to define the terms.

Zeus-cat
01-12-2006, 08:18 PM
I watched an episode of "MythBusters" (a televsion show in the US) and they put several large caliber rounds through "bullet-proof" glass. Keep in mind that this is high-tech modern glass, not the stuff from World War II. The glass stopped all the small-caliber weapons they tested, but once they moved up to the large rifles they were able to seriously damage or penetrate the glass with relative ease. A World War II fighter hit by several large caliber rounds at short range and a small angle should be easily penetrated.

carguy_
01-12-2006, 08:44 PM
US planes are equipped with 50cal 12.7mm ammo.Maybe the best heavy machinegun of WWII.Very good penetration,high velocity and very good ballistics.About the armor I can only imagine 50mm windshield on FW190 stopping penetration.

Also the ammobelt is AP in the game so pilot kill is very frequent though you won`t explode/tear planes.

VW-IceFire
01-12-2006, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by hmkim:
According to a book that I'm reading, late Luftwaffe fighters such as the Ta 152 had a bullet-proof canopy. Then, why do the machine guns of American planes crush the canopy of my late Luftwaffe fighters and kill me? My understanding is that most American planes' were equipped with relatively weak 7.62mm machine guns. Shouldn't a bullet-proof canopy deflect those weak bullets?
Nearly all American fighters are equipped with the very good and very reliable Browning M2 .50cal machine gun. This is considered a heavy machine gun. Bullet proof glass is not going to stop a full on hit of a .50cal round (or any HMG: German, Japanese, Russian, etc). Glancing blows yes....but full on hits no.

Not much is going to completely stop a heavy machine gun round and up without weighing alot more...like modern day tank armor.

Kocur_
01-12-2006, 10:16 PM
Umm, while there is no question than both .50 weapon and ammo were/are very good, they have limitations. Seems to me that Sturmobocks with all that added armouring didnt have windscreens (Im not talking about steel plates below windscreen) protected in any special way compared to regular Fw-190s. That would indicate, that Fw-190 windscreen glass of 50mm at 60deg IIRC was capable of stopping .50 projectiles, even at. short distance.

ImpStarDuece
01-13-2006, 02:37 AM
A M2 AP Browning round fired from a M2 Browning can pierce approximately 1 inch (25.4mm) of rolled homogenous armour (RHA)at 20 yards, or about 19mm at 500 yards (both at 0 degree deflection).

A M8 API Browning round, fired from a M2 Browning can pierce approximately 19mm of RHA at 200 yards, or 16mm at 500 yards.

Could this pierce a 50mm armoured windscreen? Debatable, depending on angle of impact, impact velocity, angle of projectile yaw, the composition of the armoured glass and other factors.

Take an obvious example where you have two planes going head to head at 300 mph each. This is going to add about 275 m/sec to the impact velocity, a fairly high portion of which will be retained if your firing at 500-200 meters. Would boosting the MV to over 1100m/sec relative then allow a .50 cal round to penetrated the glass?

Similarly, multiple hits are going to seriously weaken the structure of any armoured glass. There is just no way that the sim could model something as intricate as the fracturing properties of glass when struck by a ultiple high velocity projectiles.

Another question to raise is was it the whole of the windscreen that was 50mm, or just the front piece? Was the regular plexiglass canopy also armoured to a similar level to the front screen?

WOLFMondo
01-13-2006, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
Still, apart from heavily armoured Fw-190 A-7/8/R8, the sole truly armoured part of canopy of German fighters was windscreen.

All 190's had armour around the powerplant, oil tank and parts of the fuel tank.

DIRTY-MAC
01-13-2006, 04:24 AM
Remember, these things can 'KO Tiger tanks' etc etc etc. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifT.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

whiteladder
01-13-2006, 05:26 AM
Another question to raise is was it the whole of the windscreen that was 50mm, or just the front piece? Was the regular plexiglass canopy also armoured to a similar level to the front screen?


I believe I`m correct in saying it was only the front screen that was routinely armoured, the exception being the R-8 weapons fit, this had 30mm panels fitted to the sides of the canopy.

The standard canopy was quite thinhttp://img75.imageshack.us/img75/2205/canopy20as.jpg

It was hinged along the front top half so it could follow the tapered canopy rails, it still need a certain amount of flex after the hinge to do this, so it would be hard to have the whole canopy armoured.

Kocur_
01-13-2006, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
Still, apart from heavily armoured Fw-190 A-7/8/R8, the sole truly armoured part of canopy of German fighters was windscreen.

All 190's had armour around the powerplant, oil tank and parts of the fuel tank. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Parts you mention arent parts of canopy, hmm?http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And regular Fw-190A had armoured ring oil tank and radiator, Doras had armoured ring coolant radiator, plus 12mm armour plate behind pilots head, 8mm back of pilot's seat and three 5mm plates behind cocpit.

Kocur_
01-13-2006, 01:50 PM
Apart from Sturmbocks, the only part made of armoured glass was front glass plate of windscreen.
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/9858/fw190armour8ek.th.jpg (http://img353.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fw190armour8ek.jpg)