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View Full Version : Corsair vs. Spits and ki-84's



Ta10n
02-05-2007, 05:34 AM
I have pf standalone (planning on getting 46 soon) and have just started playing online the last couple of weeks. I like the corsair but it seems that either my tactics are lacking or the flight model (4.04) or the corsair itself. What are the best tactics against the spits and ki's. If it requires learning CEM I'll do it. Thanks.

tigertalon
02-05-2007, 06:07 AM
1v1 you have no chances but to run (unless at substantional alt advantage or surprise). Always fly with a wingman and Drag'n'Bag bogeys mutualy with your wingmen.

Hm, how come you are fighting spits with a corsair?

Yes, CEM is imperative, especially because of managing the supercharger (which you have to switch at approx 2 or 2.5km to second, and at around 5km to third stage ~ 'sair experts correct me please). If you fly into the battle vs Ki-84 below 2k you are dead already.

USMC ace Joseph Jacob Foss once said - flying a Wildcat:
"If you are alone and meet a zero, run like hell, you are outnumbered."

I think the same could be said for F4U vs Ki-84.

Ta10n
02-05-2007, 06:27 AM
Originally posted by tigertalon:

"If you are alone and meet a zero, run like hell, you are outnumbered."

I think the same could be said for F4U vs Ki-84.

Wow I guess that pretty much answers my question.
Corsairs vs spits might come up because some of the df servers for pf standalone allow all planes to both sides. You can fly anything you want, so the ki's and the spits pretty much rule the day. The j2m3 and zero seem to get flown alot too. I was hoping i guess for some tactical magic that would allow me to fly the corsair against these planes, my other favorite plane the f6f isnt much of a contender either, at least not the way I fly it. Thanks for the reply.

lowfighter
02-05-2007, 07:19 AM
To me the Corsair is one of the most beautiful planes in the game. I'm an offliner and please take this into account, a Ki84 plane piloted by a human can be a lot more dangerous than the corresponding AI...
Anyway from my experience:
-C. is a good turner about the same as Ki84 BUT not as good as the Spit, avoid turning too much with a spit, and start turning with it only if your speed is good, perhaps over 400-450 Km/h.
-C. needs gentle handling and good trim, if you have them, your C. might easily beat many other birds in terms of speed...So try to keep it fast by the above mentioned!!!
-C. has a very good acceleration in mild dives or horizontaly, use it to run away. If you engage, your speed might go down, use ANY little time you're not threatened to gain speed, as I said the C. accelerates quite fast.
-...

All what I'm saying is yeah rather sterile, the best advise: fly it often, offline and online, you'll get it sorted out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

mynameisroland
02-05-2007, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by Ta10n:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:

"If you are alone and meet a zero, run like hell, you are outnumbered."

I think the same could be said for F4U vs Ki-84.

Wow I guess that pretty much answers my question.
Corsairs vs spits might come up because some of the df servers for pf standalone allow all planes to both sides. You can fly anything you want, so the ki's and the spits pretty much rule the day. The j2m3 and zero seem to get flown alot too. I was hoping i guess for some tactical magic that would allow me to fly the corsair against these planes, my other favorite plane the f6f isnt much of a contender either, at least not the way I fly it. Thanks for the reply. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The servers you describe generally do not attract the best quality of pilots. If they did you could replace the no.1 danger of Spits and Ki 84s with Fw 190 D9s, Tempests, Yak 9 Us and Mustang IIIs. The reason being that the Spitfire and Ki 84 are not fast enough to be the best, they are generally easier to fly but once you start flying against opposition which are more organised and use tactics which make the most of speed and team work slower more manuverable fighters become less uber.

As for your 1st post, my advice would be to have a wing man with you and fight the Ki 84 at height using slashing attacks, if you miss your wingman can have a shot, if the Ki 84 decides to chase one of you the other one takes him off your 6. Same goes for Spitfires except you can fight them better at low to medium heights.

Oh, just to add something: If you want to 'magically' beat a Spitfire or a Ki 84 in a trun fight start reading up on Hi and Low Yo Yo s, they are manuvers which allow the heavier poorer turning plane to 'cut' the corner of a turn and get a shooting opportunity. Go to http://www.airwarfare.com/ for tactics and instruction.

TheBandit_76
02-05-2007, 07:33 AM
Um, the Ki84 can run down just about any other prop in the game. I'm not so sure the in-game F4U is all that it was in RL.

mynameisroland
02-05-2007, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
Um, the Ki84 can run down just about any other prop in the game. I'm not so sure the in-game F4U is all that it was in RL.

It has trouble with the P51 D and also the P38 Late, also if we look at other theatres (if the guy is playing on free for all servers) it is slower than a lot of things esp up high. But in PTO yes it is fast as hell.

lowfighter
02-05-2007, 08:20 AM
Hm, it's strange to me that you guys have such a poor oppinion about our Corsair. Am I the only one on the planet? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

But that's true, it depends quite a lot where and against whom you fly and what's your aim, lol

Xiolablu3
02-05-2007, 09:23 AM
Like Roland says, the main reason you are having trouble is because you are trying to turnfight with planes that can turn better.

However the Corsair is 'modelled' it should never turn inside a SPit or Ki84, so you will have to use Energy fighting to win.

Only engage if you are higher, Keep attacking the target by yoyoing, and when you are losing your advantage, retreat back to teamates so they can clear your tail if he chases.

The COrsair is a very good plane, it can carry a massive load, and land on a Carrier, but it was never a turnfighter like the Spit or Ki84, so you will have trouble unless you are careful on the arcade servers. (Where all people do are turnfight.

Learn a bit more about energy fighting if you want to continue using the Corsair, I recommend learning the FW190D9 or Fw190A4 (both in their correct years of course.

One suggesiton is to set up a QMB, you in a FW190A4 1000m above 4xAce SPitfire Vb 1941. Once you can shoot all of them down with no problems you should have learned energy fighting. (It should be very easy to do if you use energy fighting but almost impossible if you dont)

ALso get IL2 1946, you may have to mail order its not coming to the US. The you can play on more than just arcade servers.

lowfighter
02-05-2007, 09:49 AM
A couple of people here have a problem regularly, whenever they hear the word "turn", they instantly shrink and form a mental picture of some planes just turning and turning and turning in horizontal circles till the fuel goes out, lol.

Ernst_Rohr
02-05-2007, 10:03 AM
Ki-84's are a very tough bird to take on in the Corsair.

Speed wise, the ONLY birds that can keep up with the 84 are the Mustangs, P-47 (nosebleed alts only), 109K4 and the 190D9's.

The Hayate is faster, turns better, climbs faster, accellerates quicker, and packs a hell of a punch. The Corsairs only real defense is to dive away, assuming you have an equal E engagement. If your E is higher than his, you can hang with the 84 in a turn BRIEFLY. Use it to take a quick shot, then exit and regain E.

The Corsair bleeds E faster than the 84 in a turn fight, and the 84 has a better power to weight, which means, DONT TURN with him. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The BEST way to fight an 84 in a Corsair, is to bring a wingman!

I love the 84, despite how fragile it is, its one of my favorite rides and I always do well against Corsairs. That is except vs the BSS guys in their Corsairs, cause when your shooting at one of them, his wingman is shooting at you! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

lowfighter
02-05-2007, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:


Speed wise, the ONLY birds that can keep up with the 84 are the Mustangs, P-47 (nosebleed alts only), 109K4 and the 190D9's.



Really? Take a look at the max speeds for Corsair, take a look also at turn time for the same vis all the birds mentioned. Take a look at climb rate for the Ki and the Corsair, lol

If you look at the data, the Ki is slightly superior in almost all aspects, e.g. 578 Km/h vs 565 Km/h at see level. Do you think these type of differences will place the Corsair really below the KI in combat?

bluedragon1950
02-05-2007, 12:46 PM
Pilot's skills is the key. Try to fly on VMF215 and u can see Corsair Aces on this server: they shoot you down in any plane, Ki - Spit - Zero.

Ernst_Rohr
02-05-2007, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by lowfighter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:


Speed wise, the ONLY birds that can keep up with the 84 are the Mustangs, P-47 (nosebleed alts only), 109K4 and the 190D9's.



Yep, I have used the speed difference several times to get the heck out of dodge against the Corsairs. Particularly against human birds, its a big difference.
Really? Take a look at the max speeds for Corsair, take a look also at turn time for the same vis all the birds mentioned. Take a look at climb rate for the Ki and the Corsair, lol

If you look at the data, the Ki is slightly superior in almost all aspects, e.g. 578 Km/h vs 565 Km/h at see level. Do you think these type of differences will place the Corsair really below the KI in combat? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

VW-IceFire
02-05-2007, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Ta10n:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:

"If you are alone and meet a zero, run like hell, you are outnumbered."

I think the same could be said for F4U vs Ki-84.

Wow I guess that pretty much answers my question.
Corsairs vs spits might come up because some of the df servers for pf standalone allow all planes to both sides. You can fly anything you want, so the ki's and the spits pretty much rule the day. The j2m3 and zero seem to get flown alot too. I was hoping i guess for some tactical magic that would allow me to fly the corsair against these planes, my other favorite plane the f6f isnt much of a contender either, at least not the way I fly it. Thanks for the reply. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No tactical magic...just discipline. The Corsair is a nice plane to fly, I enjoy taking it into dogfight servers and historic scenarios just about equally. Historic scenarios always bring out the best of the Corsair with its range, hitting power (air to air and especially air to ground), and durability. Most of those tend to count less in the low altitude short range dogfight servers.

Always plan to arrive above your enemies and dive in on them. The Corsair can really scream in a dive and view over the nose is good enough to get a bead on a maneuvering fighter and send a whole package of .50cals their way. If you are saddled with the F4U-1C with its quad 20mm cannons the benefit is in the hitting power but you do loose some of the agility with this plane as its a bit heavier than the 1D I find.

As long as you keep the fight in the vertical the Corsair can do quite well. It can also take a fair number of hits and keep on trucking. Less useful in a dogfight server because there are bad guys scattered everywhere and the smoke just makes you look an easy kill (which you probably are).

Corsairs can generally out run Spitfires and Zeros and can match Ki-84s in terms of speed. Ki-84s, Zeros, and Spitfires I find will accelerate quicker on the straight and level but not in a prolonged shallow dive. If any of these types are behind you then run for home and get some help or wait till they get bored and then reverse on them. Again, always from above. The Corsair also holds the advantage in the medium altitude range most of the time. Around 3000 meters or 10,000 feet the Corsair will be better than the other types or extremely evenly matched. Power tends to matter more than anything the higher you get.

If you can master the Corsair you can also generally fly the P-47 and the Tempest in similar situations. All three are different surely but you can employ similar techniques as they are all somewhat the same in terms of overall size, hitting power, and top speed.

drose01
02-05-2007, 09:04 PM
Ta10n, welcome to Il2, where are US planes are not competitive with the best planes of any other major combatant except in the area of high altitude performance.

And really, they are not even close.

Forget about turnfighting, or "dogfighting" as it is more commonly known. The La7, Spit IX 25 lbs, Yak3, Ki84 and others dominate this tactic.

American planes can go fast, but accelerate very poorly. They are best used for energy fighting, or "boom and zoom." Here, they are handicapped by their relatively weak weapons, the "50 cal" machine guns.

While the US planes can do pretty well at the boom and zoom, with good altitude performance and high dive speeds, compared to cannon armed planes like the FW190, they are armed with pea shooters. Typically, the 190 will kill in one good pass, while the P47 or P51 will usually take 2,3 or more. Super ace pilots excepted.

Someone mentioned how the BSS team uses the Corsair well, but notice it is the F4UC that is preferred, with the 4 20 mm cannons that do devestating damage. In real life, only 200 of these were made. From Wikipedia:


F4U-1C: This variant was in production in 1943, but was only introduced in combat during 1945, most notably in the Okinawa campaign. Intended for ground-attack as well as fighter missions, the F4U-1C was similar to the F4U-1A but its armament was replaced by 4x 20 mm (0.79") Hispano M2 cannons, each containing 231 rounds [4] of ammunition. The variant was very rare as only 200 were built. This was due to the fact that pilots preferred the standard armament of six .50 calibre machine guns since they were already more than powerful enough to destroy most Japanese aircraft, yet had more ammunition and a better firing rate.[citation needed] The weight of the Hispano cannons and their ammunition caused the aircraft to lack agility.


(Think about it- in real life, noone wanted the Corsair with canons. In Il2, noone wants it without them.)

The bottom line, Ta10n, is that if you want to fly American planes and not be frustrated, fly at very high altitudes, with a wingman, or become a very very good pilot.

But I predict you will probably get bored and frustated and end up in a Spit 25 lbs. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VW-IceFire
02-05-2007, 09:45 PM
Note that they preferred the machine guns because the Japanese aircraft tended to be light and easy to destroy. But Corsairs are being thrown in "the ring" with much more capable aircraft in the online world. So they are more or less at par with the opposition and its a smaller wonder that people will prefer the 20mm cannon version. I actually prefer the F4U-1D as its the more common version and the .50cals hit just fine...and are easier to hit in high angle deflection shots. This is despite my natural preference for the Tempest which has basically the same armament (although the Tempest's cannons are a wee bit better).

I don't think for instance that Corsairs ever faced off against a FW190D-9 but online that'd be a rough fight. Friendly fire aside, I don't think Spitfires and Corsairs mixed it up either. And of course, the bigger, heavier, longer ranged, greater payload fighters are not going to be as good as the little lightweight Ki-84 or La-7 which basically can only dogfight at low and medium altitude and do nothing else.

American WWII aircraft tend to be ones that contribute an overall capability to an entire theater of operations. Usually in more than one role. They can fly long distances with big payloads at high altitudes and when you want to try and win wars...those are good attributes to have.

If, on the other hand, you want to play in the dirt at 500m and mix it up in close quarters then you want a different plane. The US did end up making a fighter that could do this...it was called the F8F Bearcat. Same engine power as the Corsair but far lighter weight. Absolutely brilliant aircraft with a ridiculous climb rate...the other disadvantage being that the armament was reduced to four .50cal and they later redressed that to four M3 Hispano 20mm cannon (better than the M3 on the F4U-1C). Too bad it never got in the war...would always have loved to have that in the game. The ideal kamikaze hunter...react really quickly, climb really fast, and do enough damage to prevent a kamikaze from hitting the ship. Sort of like what the La-7 was meant to do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

drose01
02-05-2007, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Note that they preferred the machine guns because the Japanese aircraft tended to be light and easy to destroy.

Do you think on servers with genuine US pacific versus Japanese planesets that most skilled users would not prefer the canons? I doubt it.

Of course, Corsairs never historically fought 190s or Spits, but online it happens all the time.

Regarding Corsair vs 190, I think it is a decent online matchup IF the Corsair has cannons. Without them, advantage 190, no question IMO.