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Isaac_Goldstein
11-03-2006, 06:09 AM
Hi all,

I just read the fascinating interveiw with Erich Hartmann. According to mr. Harmann's story he started flying in 1942 on the Me 109 G series and continued to fly the Messer till the end of WW2. Can anybody tell what kind of models of 109 he flew (in a chronological order) and what weapons loadout he had? THe interview says that he preferred to fire from point blank range due to the slow muzzle velocity of the gun and that his plane frequently sustained damages due to debris. Does this suggest that he flew the later alcohol boosted Messers with the Mark 108 gun?

THanks

Isaac

Beuf_Ninja
11-03-2006, 06:32 AM
Does this suggest that he flew the later alcohol boosted Messers with the Mark 108 gun?

Sounds like it, I can't hit a thing with a 108.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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csThor
11-03-2006, 07:09 AM
Yes, he did. I've seen the following marks associated with him:

Bf 109 G-2
Bf 109 G-4 (which is pretty much a G-2 with bigger tyres and a new radio set)
Bf 109 G-6
Bf 109 G-14
Bf 109 G-10
Bf 109 K-4 (probably, not known for sure)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Abbuzze
11-03-2006, 07:20 AM
The destructive result of the main cannon were also a result of the 20mm. In fact in early versions of il2 the 20mm worked like hartman described, I shot down P39 from a short range in one fast pass from 100-50m. This is nearly impossible now, you don??t have enought time to put enough hits into the plane at this distance.

I crashed into my 1st victim when the 20m was changed, because it simpy stayed in air... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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StG2_Schlachter
11-03-2006, 08:12 AM
Just for the sake of correctness:

MK stands for Maschinenkanone (machine cannon) and not mark as on Spitfire Mk. IX

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waffen-79
11-03-2006, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by csThor:
Yes, he did. I've seen the following marks associated with him:

Bf 109 G-2
Bf 109 G-4 (which is pretty much a G-2 with bigger tyres and a new radio set)
Bf 109 G-6
Bf 109 G-14
Bf 109 G-10
Bf 109 K-4 (probably, not known for sure)

only 109's?
starting in late '42?
350+ victories?

maybe the 109 in il2 series it's not so ??ber/overmodelled after all...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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ColoradoBBQ
11-03-2006, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by waffen-79:
maybe the 109 in il2 series it's not so ??ber/overmodelled after all...

He never dogfighted unless he screwed up badly. Most of his kills were from employing B and Z tactics.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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HuninMunin
11-03-2006, 10:00 AM
Rall scored almost 300 also and he was a superb dogfighter.
As was Galland.
Or Marseille.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Chuck_Older
11-03-2006, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by waffen-79:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by csThor:
Yes, he did. I've seen the following marks associated with him:

Bf 109 G-2
Bf 109 G-4 (which is pretty much a G-2 with bigger tyres and a new radio set)
Bf 109 G-6
Bf 109 G-14
Bf 109 G-10
Bf 109 K-4 (probably, not known for sure)

only 109's?
starting in late '42?
350+ victories?

maybe the 109 in il2 series it's not so ??ber/overmodelled after all... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, there was also a time when Russian pilots would hop in TB3s with no gunners, co-pilots, or anyone else, and fly missions because they were more afraid of being shot by a Comissar, than they were of the Germans. Try 16 TB3s with no ammo on for size in the QMB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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darkhorizon11
11-03-2006, 10:10 AM
Although it really doesn't mention it in the article he did fly the 262 for a brief period as well, but chose to stick with the 109.

hugohugo37
11-03-2006, 10:11 AM
He started in late '42. That surprised me when I first learned it. One would assume that these guys racked up so many kills early in the war against I-16s and I-153's and the like but that really isn't the case. How DID he survive to the end of the war?

Chuck_Older
11-03-2006, 10:14 AM
Disciplined combat tactics<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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F6_Ace
11-03-2006, 10:14 AM
Were there a lot of TB3s in Hartmann's 'kill list' ?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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jasonbirder
11-03-2006, 10:14 AM
Nearly all of Hartmann's kills came from mid 1943 onwards...by April '43 he had 7 kills, by July '43 he had 21 Kills...it was after this that he really got into his stride http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
So far from facing TB3's and I16s he was more usually flying against Il2's Yaks and the like...
Incidently I believe he only flew 109G's in combat (he did have a short period where he was supposed to be transitioning to 262's with JG7 but he transfered back to JG52 to finish the war in Rumania)

Chuck_Older
11-03-2006, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
Were there a lot of TB3s in Hartmann's 'kill list' ?

I don't know, and I didn't say so http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The sheer number of his kills was mentioned is all, and I pointed out that sometimes on the eastern front, the Germans had spectactular successes because of suicidal Soviet tactics http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Isaac_Goldstein
11-03-2006, 10:37 AM
Ok, thanks, let's stick to the subject please (what he flew) So if one would whish to reenact his career, you would start off in the DGEN with German fighter carrer (south) and then late -42 with a 109 G2? Then what, G6 (I've noticed there are 2 G6's in the game, wich one?)

And the G10, G14 and finally the K-4?

Thanks for your replies,

Isaac

mazexx
11-03-2006, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
Were there a lot of TB3s in Hartmann's 'kill list' ?

While scanning the net, I found this list of his victories until the end of 1943, unfortunately I cannot find lists for 44-45. He sure seems to have had La-5:s as main opponents - and there are very few bombers on the list:

5 Nov. 1942 IL-2
27 Jan. 1943 MIG-1
9 Feb. 1943 Lagg-3
10 Feb. 1943 Boston
24 Mar. 1943 U-2
27 Mar. 1943 I-16 Rata
15 Apr. 1943 Airacobra
26 Apr. 1943 R-5
28 Apr. 1943 Lagg-3
30 Apr. 1943 Lagg-3
30 Apr. 1943 Lagg-3
7 May 1943 La-5
11 May 1943 Lagg-3
15 May 1943 U-2
16 May 1943 La-5
18 May 1943 Lagg-3
5 July 1943 Airacobra
5 July 1943 Airacobra
5 July 1943 Airacobra
5 July 1943 La-5
7 July 1943 IL-2
7 July 1943 IL-2
7 July 1943 IL-2
7 July 1943 La-5
7 July 1943 La-5
7 July 1943 La-5
7 July 1943 La-5
8 July 1943 La-5
8 July 1943 La-5
8 July 1943 La-5
8 July 1943 La-5
10 July 1943 La-5
11 July 1943 La-5
15 July 1943 La-5
15 July 1943 La-5
16 July 1943 La-5
16 July 1943 La-5
17 July 1943 La-5
31 July 1943 La-5
1 Aug. 1943 La-5
1 Aug. 1943 La-5
1 Aug. 1943 YAK-7
1 Aug. 1943 YAK-7
1 Aug. 1943 YAK-7
3 Aug. 1943 La-5
3 Aug. 1943 YAK-7
3 Aug. 1943 YAK-7
3 Aug. 1943 La-5
4 Aug. 1943 La-5
4 Aug. 1943 La-5
4 Aug. 1943 La-5
4 Aug. 1943 YAK-7
4 Aug. 1943 La-5
5 Aug. 1943 La-5
6 Aug. 1943 YAK-1
7 Aug. 1943 YAK-1
7 Aug. 1943 YAK-1
7 Aug. 1943 Pe-2
7 Aug. 1943 Pe-2
7 Aug. 1943 YAK-1
7 Aug. 1943 La-5
7 Aug. 1943 La-5
8 Aug. 1943 YAK-1
8 Aug. 1943 La-5
9 Aug. 1943 La-5
9 Aug. 1943 YAK-1
9 Aug. 1943 YAK-1
9 Aug. 1943 YAK-1
12 Aug. 1943 La-5
15 Aug. 1943 Pe-2
15 Aug. 1943 La-5
15 Aug. 1943 La-5
17 Aug. 1943 La-5
17 Aug. 1943 Airacobra
17 Aug. 1943 Airacobra
17 Aug. 1943 Airacobra
18 Aug. 1943 La-5
18 Aug. 1943 La-5
18 Aug. 1943 La-5
19 Aug. 1943 La-5
19 Aug. 1943 La-5
19 Aug. 1943 Airacobra
20 Aug. 1943 IL-2
20 Aug. 1943 IL-2
15 Sep. 1943 La-5
18 Sep. 1943 La-5
18 Sep. 1943 La-5
18 Sep. 1943 La-5
18 Sep. 1943 La-5
19 Sep. 1943 La-5
20 Sep. 1943 La-5
20 Sep. 1943 La-5
20 Sep. 1943 Airacobra
20 Sep. 1943 La-5
25 Sep. 1943 La-5
25 Sep. 1943 La-5
25 Sep. 1943 La-5
26 Sep. 1943 La-5
26 Sep. 1943 Airacobra
26 Sep. 1943 Airacobra
27 Sep. 1943 La-5
27 Sep. 1943 La-5
28 Sep. 1943 La-5
29 Sep. 1943 La-5
29 Sep. 1943 Airacobra
30 Sep. 1943 La-5
30 Sep. 1943 Airacobra
30 Sep. 1943 Airacobra
1 Oct. 1943 La-5
1 Oct. 1943 La-5
2 Oct. 1943 La-5
2 Oct. 1943 Pe-2
2 Oct. 1943 Airacobra
2 Oct. 1943 La-5
3 Oct. 1943 La-5
3 Oct. 1943 La-5
4 Oct. 1943 Airacobra
11 Oct. 1943 La-5
12 Oct. 1943 La-5
12 Oct. 1943 La-5
12 Oct. 1943 La-5
12 Oct. 1943 La-5
13 Oct. 1943 La-5
14 Oct. 1943 La-5
14 Oct. 1943 La-5
14 Oct. 1943 La-5
15 Oct. 1943 La-5
15 Oct. 1943 La-5
15 Oct. 1943 La-5
20 Oct. 1943 Airacobra
20 Oct. 1943 Airacobra
20 Oct. 1943 Airacobra
21 Oct. 1943 La-5
24 Oct. 1943 La-5
24 Oct. 1943 La-5
25 Oct. 1943 Pe-2
25 Oct. 1943 La-5
26 Oct. 1943 Airacobra
26 Oct. 1943 Airacobra
29 Oct. 1943 La-5
29 Oct. 1943 Airacobra
7 Dec. 1943 La-7
13 Dec. 1943 La-7

/Mazex

Ruy Horta
11-03-2006, 11:02 AM
In some ways the pilots who started their combat career in 1942 enjoyed the best training, better than those with pre-war experience or the Spanish civil war.

These were pilots who were trained by experienced instructors who knew air combat based on a couple of years of air combat.

This generation bore plenty of high scoring aces, who never had a "happy time" against inferior types (*those who think that a veteran Russian fighter pilot with experience of air combat against the Japanese, flying a I 16 was an easy target should reevaluate their prejudice) and who had to fight against the odds.

Soon after this generation came the ever decreasing level of training, in general and especially in terms of air combat training.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Ruy Horta

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F6_Ace
11-03-2006, 11:11 AM
Just as I suspected then. He didn't have an easy ride of things regarding the enemy aircraft (TB3!) although he may have been lucky enough to keep finding poorly trained pilots.

Although that's not very statistically likely in '43 on and when you are encountering enough to eventually shoot over 300 down in the end.

Impressive really - the amount of fighter kills.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004YL1M.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

Heavy_Weather
11-03-2006, 11:22 AM
did he ever shoot down any La-5's?.................



just kiddin, hehe

waffen-79
11-03-2006, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Heavy_Weather:
did he ever shoot down any La-5's?.................



just kiddin, hehe

LMAO

EH: Gee, just how they make this La-5's, they're impossible! that's it, I'm heading home<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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JuHa-
11-03-2006, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by ColoradoBBQ:
He never dogfighted unless he screwed up badly. Most of his kills were from employing B and Z tactics.

I'd remember him telling to the new pilots that use your brains, not your muscles to fly and fight.
He also mentioned that the pilots (in his unit) who dogfighted often were easy to spot: their
upper bodies were more muscular than other's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Basicly, he counted on suprise to maximize his chances to survive the whole war. And it worked.

mazexx
11-03-2006, 03:16 PM
Had to keep looking so I found the complete list. Unfortunately it is not as detailed as the previous list I found. An interesting example is that almost all La:s are recorded as LaGG, as opposed to the ->1944 list that separates LaGG-3, LA-5:s and La-7:s. One can assume that a lot of the 1944-1945 LaGG:s in the list are late La-5:s and La-7:s when looking at the other more detailed list that has no LaGG:s at all in late 1943... It's really impressive that he continues to rack up fighter kills almost exclusively. I had expected a lot more IL-2:s and Pe-2:s etc...

I summarized his kills quickly from the list:

209 LaGG - many of them La:s (LaGG-3, La-5 or La-7)
81 P39
25 Yak-9
15 IL2
6 Pe-2
3 Yak-3
3 Boston
2 Yak-7
2 Mustang
1 Mig-1
1 I-16
1 R-5
1 U-2
1 B-26
1 E/a - unidentified?

As there was doubt about kill 307 if it was a Yak-7 or a Lagg-5 I put it as a Yak-7 (had to pick somthing and he already had 210 La:s http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

Link to site with the complete kill list for Hartmann (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/hartmann.html)

/Mazex

F6_Ace
11-03-2006, 03:22 PM
290 Laggs and Yaks?

Think about that! Take off, engage..use all your ammo _hitting_ a Lagg or Yak. Land. Take off again, use all your ammo hitting the same Lagg or Yak. Land, take off again and finally down the Lagg or Yak with your last round of ammo.

He was a busy man, old Erich.

Hang on, sorry...he was flying in RL and not in this game!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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mazexx
11-03-2006, 03:35 PM
It sure is an interesting read - for example, in just three days (22/8-44 to 24/8-44) he shot down 24 planes. That would have placed him as the number 10 top scoring american ace during WWII http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif That's the days when the Soviet union captured Romania that he talked about in the interview so I guess they where busy days...

/Mazex

horseback
11-03-2006, 10:29 PM
Not to detract at all from Hartmann's skills, but let's be serious about his opposition for a minute.

Everything I've read about the Russian Front from the German airwar perspective indicates that the Soviets' really skilled pilots were concentrated in a relatively few Guards units. These were sometimes used as firemen, moving from theater to theater, whereever their particular skills were demanded. They often got the most promising young pilots & aircrew out of training, or when a young tiger revealed himself in another unit, he might be 'plucked' out of it.

While the remaining pilots may have had better training than their predecessors of '41-'43, it was not considered on a par with Western air forces training. While there were lots of them, and quantity does indeed have a quality of it's own, it is unlikely that many of them approached the basic skill levels of the Germans trained prior to 1944. Given the relatively few German aircraft on the Eastern front, many of these pilots and aircrew flew endless bombing, ground attack or escort missions without ever seeing an enemy aircraft.

This can only lead to a certain complacency.

Now we take young Erich, already blessed with excellent eyesight and coordination, a strong youthful body and a sharp intelligent mind, and give him a couple of years of solid training, drop him into a veteran unit with good leadership and a solid core of maintenance people, and see what happens to him as he develops his skills against the opposition I just described.

The first several months, he just blundered around, being protected by his leader and then settled into being a good wingman to a pretty good enlisted pilot, then he was moved up to flying wing on a couple of very good pilots, observing their technique and strategy. As I read it, the German fighter pilot's approach to air combat was as a hunter; that is, the emphasis was on knocking down enemy planes rather than on a military objective. There don't seem to be many instances where they defended the air over a set position or cleared the air ahead of a bombing raid, and there was a healthy scorn for ground attack missions.

Soviet memoirs often note that German fighters could be lured away from the bombers they were supposed to be protecting, or that they would go after attack aircraft that had already dropped their bombs and were fleeing the area in a ragged formation or singly instead of going after the incoming bombers flying in tight formations. The Germans hunted for kills, and in their system, the way to recognition was to run up a high score.

If one checks Hartmann's kill dates, he started pretty slowly, and then, some time after the seven month mark, he went wild, scoring over 100 kills before the first anniversary of his arrival in a combat unit. He'd developed a knack for finding the enemy, picking the safest target, and knowing when to run.

Against a numerous but largely unwary and generally not as well equipped (in both training & aircraft) opposition, quite often it must have been akin to shooting fish in a barrel.

This not a criticism; air combat is the fine art of stabbing an unsuspecting opponent in the back and bugging out before his buddies notice. Hartmann's surviving the war speaks not only about his skills, but his incredible luck. Hardly ever was he seen by his enemy first, and the vast majority of those few times, he either had a way out or an advantageous position.

That means that he planned his hunting trips very carefully, avoided getting greedy, and made sure that his wingman or flight understood his rules of engagement and followed them. While he obviously had some serious fighter pilot chops, he still managed to keep from getting too confident in his own skills.

Many of the greats in the East died of overconfidence, or at least allowed themselves to be trapped into trying to live up to someone else's expectations.

Hartmann had the humility to recognize that he had limits, and the discipline to stay within them (with a good safety margin). That may be the quality that made him the greatest scorer of all.

cheers

horseback<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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zugfuhrer
11-04-2006, 02:40 AM
Don?t forget the air control. How did the LW direct their fighters to targets?

If a fighter pilot got a good radar guidance of where the enemy is, he can focus much better in finding them, instead of watching his own, and his "rottefliegers" six.

If this support was better in LW than in VVS, LW got a big advantage.

Compare to how much the AWAC:s contribute to modern warfare.

Its like playing chess and one player only se the nearest adjacent squares around friendly pieces, and the other player sees the whole table.

HuninMunin
11-04-2006, 05:17 AM
Just an interesting sidenote to Horseback's post:
The german word "Jäger" actually means "hunter", not fighter.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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WOLFMondo
11-04-2006, 05:57 AM
Originally posted by horseback:


Against a numerous but largely unwary and generally not as well equipped (in both training & aircraft) opposition, quite often it must have been akin to shooting fish in a barrel.


He shot down an whole load of La5's though and they were always a great aircraft.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Cheers!!

Ruy Horta
11-04-2006, 07:01 AM
Attitudes about the Eastern Front are slowly changing, but the old prejudice is hard to extinguish. The Eastern Front was different, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was easier.

Having read my share of Jagdflieger (auto)biographies and accounts my memory has become rather blurred on the subject, but certainly not all of them rated the quality of Soviet fighter pilots below that of their adversaries on the Western Front, on the contrary (better individual flying skill and aggression).

Anglo-American fighter pilots may have had a lot of training, but that still didn't make them experienced fighter pilots.

The Germans have a good description for it: Ein alter Hase.

http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/koster/homepage/hasen/images/alter%20hase.jpg.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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HayateAce
11-04-2006, 09:19 AM
Precious few Yak3s and P51s.

And he was shot down by a P51.

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jasonbirder
11-04-2006, 09:34 AM
He'd have struggled to shoot down many P51's wouldn't he...
As for not shooting down many Yak's (just the 28 eh...what a slacker) he obviously took the easy option...swatting down those La's...rotten performing planes so i'm led to understand http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Just realised you should be saluting his achievments doubly HayateAce after all he made all of his kills in a 109 Gustav which in reality (unlike FB/AEP/PF) was a lousy airplane eh...

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BOA_Allmenroder
11-04-2006, 09:54 AM
Actually, Hartmann flew approximately 2500 sorties, actually engaging the enemy, ie fired his guns, about 850+ times. Of that he got 352 confirmed.

So approximately every 3rd time he fired he scored a confirmed kill. When you break it down its not so amazing.

The amazing part is he lived through it. And he was 23 when the war ended.

horseback
11-04-2006, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:


Against a numerous but largely unwary and generally not as well equipped (in both training & aircraft) opposition, quite often it must have been akin to shooting fish in a barrel.

He shot down an whole load of La5's though and they were always a great aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed, but the 109s were usually superior to the contemporary versions of the Lavotchkin fighters in top speed and climb, which gave the 109 pilot the option to engage or disengage at will. Hartmann clearly used this to the hilt.

Attitudes about the Eastern Front are slowly changing, but the old prejudice is hard to extinguish. The Eastern Front was different, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was easier. Never said otherwise, Ruy. What I said was that the Soviets concentrated their best pilots into Guards Regiments which were allowed a great deal more initiative than the more numerous regular formations.

The fact is that it is easier to pick off stragglers and newbies at the edge of a rigidly controlled formation than from one that is alert and ready to peel off a pair or a flight to deal with a potential threat. Pilot memoirs make it clear that it soon became apparent to them which aircraft were piloted by the weak sisters in the group; they strayed a bit further away from their leaders and tended to fall behind at every change of direction. These were the natural first choices as targets.

The greater lack of good pilots in regular Soviet formations made them less effective overall in comparison to the USAAF and RAF formations, which tended rather to move good pilots to poorly performing units to raise their level.

The Soviet method of putting all the good pilots in elite units made the more numerous Soviet formations a bit like the buffalo herds in the old West in that they were easy to kill in large numbers. They lacked the 'leavening' of western formations, which often had at least one or two natural born killers in their midst.

The Guards units would have been fairly easy to avoid, because their skills and formations would have stuck out like a sore thumb compared to what one normally saw on that front.

The ugly reality is that aces usually avoided each other and slaughtered the newbies or ground attack units instead.

As I said, the German fighter pilots had a hunter's mentality about combat, in that they only wanted to shoot down as many enemy aircraft as possible in the shortest time. Allied fighter pilots on both fronts had more of a soldier's mentality in that they were more concerned with destroying the German capacity for waging war: if that meant shooting down aircraft on Monday, strafing a truck column on Tuesday and escorting a bomber formation on a Wednesday milk run, that was the job.

German evaluations of US opponents often have an odor of sour grapes. The Yanks refused to fight the Germans' fight (after a few harsh lessons), preferring instead to stay on the high ground and make Jerry fight where the Jug and Mustang performed best vis a vis the 190 and 109.

It must have been galling to have someone do to you what you had been doing to everyone else for three years or more...

cheers

horseback<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

JG52Karaya-X
11-04-2006, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
And he was shot down by a P51.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

He never got shot down by a P51 - only by an Il2 gunner http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif and by flak a couple of times. He had a dogfight with 8 P51s after he had shot down 2 of them and ran out of fuel during this fight and had to bail out. The Mustangs didnt even scratch his paint...

And of course he didnt shoot down many P51s - he only encountered them over Romania and even then only a couple of times. BTW he shot down at least 6 P51s, 2 on 21.05.1944 near Bukarest and 4 on 01.06.1944 over Ploesti.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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The tiger leaves no smell and doesn't make a sound, but you know he is there.
There is something in the shadows - it's the tiger waiting for you.

horseback
11-04-2006, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
And he was shot down by a P51.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

He never got shot down by a P51 - only by an Il2 gunner http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif and by flak a couple of times. He had a dogfight with 8 P51s after he had shot down 2 of them and ran out of fuel during this fight and had to bail out. The Mustangs didnt even scratch his paint...Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:

Originally posted by HayateAce:
And he was shot down by a P51.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

He never got shot down by a P51 - only by an Il2 gunner http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif and by flak a couple of times. He had a dogfight with 8 P51s after he had shot down 2 of them and ran out of fuel during this fight and had to bail out. The Mustangs didnt even scratch his paint... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's his version. I recently read a magazine article about that engagement, and the American pilot who was credited with running Hartmann down had gun camera film showing strikes on the 109 before showing Hartmann taking to his 'chute. Except for the 'unscratched paint', the time, place, and events match Hartmann's description of the encounter match pretty closely...

It seems quite out of character for Hartmann to have run out of fuel that late in his career. Do you think it might be possible that his fuel consumption was 'helped along' by a few .50 holes that he was unaware of?

cheers

horseback<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

HayateAce
11-04-2006, 12:32 PM
Yes Kara, he was shot down by a Mustang. Two factors played into his "luck." He was smart enough to jump out after taking a few hits, and the Mustang pilot decided not to gun him and instead made a camera pass to confirm his kill on Hartmann.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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KIMURA
11-04-2006, 12:38 PM
Horseback on that footage <span class="ev_code_RED">a</span> 109 is to see with strikes and <span class="ev_code_RED">a</span> pilot had to take his chute. As long as that 109 isn't properly indentyfied as Hartmann's 109, we have to believe Hartmann's version. As written in "the blond Knight of Germany" there were several 109s damaged by Mustang in that engagement, so that bailing pilot could also been another German. Hartmann mentioned of about 8 Mustang chased him down, so credit one of those 8 as responsable for a "bailing Hartmann" seems a joke to me.
To the fact of running out fuel. In the same book he mentioned that the fuel warning lamp flashed before he tried to escaped, before he got the Stangs on his tail. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Peronally I do rather believe Hartmann's version and his much greater reputation than believe in claims that could not stand as historical prove.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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JG52Karaya-X
11-04-2006, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Yes Kara, he was shot down by a Mustang. Two factors played into his "luck." He was smart enough to jump out after taking a few hits, and the Mustang pilot decided not to gun him and instead made a camera pass to confirm his kill on Hartmann.

Where's the backup to your claim? Which guncamera film? Which pilot? And how the h3ll do you know from that film that it is/was Hartmann? Must have been an amazing camera if you can make out a pilots facial details on it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/Karaya/Black_Devil.gif (http://www.geocities.com/jg52thebutcherbirds/index1.html)
The tiger leaves no smell and doesn't make a sound, but you know he is there.
There is something in the shadows - it's the tiger waiting for you.

Willey
11-04-2006, 01:20 PM
La-7 in 43? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif