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jolulure
05-29-2006, 07:33 AM
Hi. I was wondering the following:

Hurricane MK I has 8 x 0.303 = 60,8 mm

However,

BF E-4 has 2 x 20mm + 2 x 7,9 = 55,8 mm

Now do the following, try destroying a P 47 with a hurricane. It is impossible. I think that low caliber guns are not well modeled in the game. If you try finding in google video or somewhere like that a video of Hurricane destroying another plane, youll see that power is much greater than in the game.

Is that real???

tigertalon
05-29-2006, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by jolulure:
Hi. I was wondering the following:

Hurricane MK I has 8 x 0.303 = 60,8 mm

However,

BF E-4 has 2 x 20mm + 2 x 7,9 = 55,8 mm

Now do the following, try destroying a P 47 with a hurricane. It is impossible. I think that low caliber guns are not well modeled in the game. If you try finding in google video or somewhere like that a video of Hurricane destroying another plane, youll see that power is much greater than in the game.

Is that real???

Why on earth are you summing the calibers of weapons? A projectile twice as big as, say 7.62mm (so roughly 15mm) will be roughly 8 times as heavy! You can't say 3*.303 is roughly equal to 1 20mm...

Plus, after teh war americans used P63s, aditionaly armoured as a flying indestructible target drones (with live pilot, yes) for training with light machineguns.

Problem lies in a DM: there are no ammoboxes, hydrawlics etc etc modelled in PF.

ImpStarDuece
05-29-2006, 08:23 AM
Weight of fire for Hurricane for 1 second: 1.8 kg/second

Weight of fire for Bf-109E-4: 2.0 kg per second

Weight of HE fired for Hurricane in 1 second: 30 or 20 grams (based on a 3/8 or 1/4 ratio of 'de Wilde' incendiary ammunition to normal ball/AP ammunition)

Weight of HE fired for Bf-190-E4 in 1 second: grams: 126 grams [based on a belting of API, HEIT and HE(M) for the MGFF(M) and 1/4 incendiary for the MG 17].

So, while the 8 Brownings of the Hurricane fire a lot more rounds and only 10% less weight, they fire less than a 1/4 of the HE and incendiary material that a Bf-109 would fire. Despite the slow rate of fire of the MGFF, the 20mm cannon was a greatly more effective weapon if its shells hit home, particularly with Minengeschoss ammuntion, which had a very high percentage devoted to HE (22%)

jolulure
05-29-2006, 08:35 AM
Thanks for the info.

Anyway, if you find in the web any video of a Hurricane shooting at another plane, it will shot it down in 30 or 20 shots (0,303). However, in the game, with those shots, you will leak the petrol deposit if you are lucky.

If in BoB spitfires come with 8 x browning 303, dont think anybody will get them, unless they change the damage model

Look this video of Spit MK. I vs BF 110VIDEO (http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/movies/spitfire_vs_bf110.wmv) No more than 30 shots.

T_Kang
05-29-2006, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by jolulure:
Thanks for the info.

Anyway, if you find in the web any video of a Hurricane shooting at another plane, it will shot it down in 30 or 20 shots (0,303). However, in the game, with those shots, you will leak the petrol deposit if you are lucky.

If in BoB spitfires come with 8 x browning 303, dont think anybody will get them, unless they change the damage model

All the armchair calculations make little difference if you do not hit the target. I would rather run into 4 NooBs in Mk.22 Spits than one in a Mk.1.

Bobsqueek
05-29-2006, 08:55 AM
Look this video of Spit MK. I vs BF 110VIDEO (http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/movies/spitfire_vs_bf110.wmv) No more than 30 shots.

I doubt thats a Mk1 Spitfire against the Bf-110, the 110 looks like its carrying underwing rockets which were fitted around 1943/44 time (I think) for use against allied bombers. So its more than likely its a Bf-110 Vs an American fighter plane, or a cannon armed later mark Spitfire, such as a Mk.IX

However I could be wrong.

berg417448
05-29-2006, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by jolulure:

Look this video of Spit MK. I vs BF 110VIDEO (http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/movies/spitfire_vs_bf110.wmv) No more than 30 shots.

It just says Spitfire on the intro to that video..could easily be a cannon armed Spitfire.

jolulure
05-29-2006, 10:39 AM
Ohh come on!! you dont believe anybody!! let me find another video

jolulure
05-29-2006, 11:47 AM
Ok... so... with 8 brownings 0.303, how many shots will I need (Aproximately) in order to distroy a BF, which is distroyed with 6 20mm shots. I love heavy weaponery, and I like spitfires, thats why im scared about uncoming BoB, cos it has spitfires with 8 brownings .,303

d9720267
05-29-2006, 11:58 AM
I agree, I think the .303s are slightly underpowered in the game. Even the c version Hurricane with 12 guns each firing 1200 rpm still takes forever to wear away at an enemy.

Rattler68
05-29-2006, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by jolulure:
Hi. I was wondering the following:

Hurricane MK I has 8 x 0.303 = 60,8 mm

However,

BF E-4 has 2 x 20mm + 2 x 7,9 = 55,8 mm

Now do the following, try destroying a P 47 with a hurricane. It is impossible. I think that low caliber guns are not well modeled in the game. If you try finding in google video or somewhere like that a video of Hurricane destroying another plane, youll see that power is much greater than in the game.

Is that real???
There are 2 things to consider when calculating firepower: muzzle energy (which disipates over distance, and is the multiple of muzzle velocity and projectile mass), and warhead (explosive, incindiary, or solid bullet.) It is extremely difficult to calculate these factors for each weapon, and harder still to compare them to each other. In most cases, the explosive cannon warhead out-weighs the higher velocities of rifle-calibre ammunition. Also, as stated, it still requires a person to actually hit a target to kill it, and higher velocity ammunition of both types have an advantage here. But then again, if someone is used to hitting aircraft with an early Japanese 20mm, or a 20mm FF, then good for them! Some people pride themselves with being masters of the KI-43a, and its pea-shooters: good for them too! In the end, it is what works for you.

jolulure
05-29-2006, 03:36 PM
so, are you getting Spit MK I or BF e-3 on BoB?? Cos Spit MK I is harmless. One question, is flyable planes list posted in other threads official??? or semi official (leaked info)??

Thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Top_Gun_1_0_1
05-29-2006, 04:06 PM
P-63,manned target drones? more info please http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Beirut
05-29-2006, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by jolulure:

Now do the following, try destroying a P 47 with a hurricane. It is impossible.

I just splashed six P-47s in a row with a Hurricane loaded with .303s, so I'm inclined to say our views differ in this matter.

Sillius_Sodus
05-29-2006, 04:27 PM
Several years ago I remeber reading a magazine article on P-39/63's being used as target practice for bomber gunners. I believe the gunners fired live ammo with slghtly modofied rounds that caused less damage to the target. To indicate a hit a light would flash on the target aircraft each time it was hit. I remember the Cobras were painted in garish colors to aid aiming.

Good Hunting,
Silius_Sodus

VW-IceFire
05-29-2006, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by jolulure:
Ok... so... with 8 brownings 0.303, how many shots will I need (Aproximately) in order to distroy a BF, which is distroyed with 6 20mm shots. I love heavy weaponery, and I like spitfires, thats why im scared about uncoming BoB, cos it has spitfires with 8 brownings .,303
I'm not worried and I'll tell you why.

Even under the current modeling of the .303 machine gun with the DM that lacks some sophistication in the ways in which AP bullets (like .303 and .50cal) you can down a 109E or a 109F (not the later models because of the extra armor) in under 2 seconds of fire.

The key is aim and convergence. I don't see alot of precision shooters online. A few mind you but not many. I try and be as precise and consistent with my shots as possible...if you feel that you're not hitting your target often then you should work on that. The spray of bullets over a 109, as things are presently, will not do much damage because you hit a bunch of components with a few bullets. What you want to do is focus your burst and hit the enemy somewhere where its going to hurt.

My favourite place to lead my aim towards is the 109s engine. That DB601 will smoke and burn very nicely with a good solid burst from the Hurricane Mark I...just focus on raking the engine compartment with a stream of .303s at or near convergence and problem solved.

My biggest worry is going to be the killstealers...its brutal flying in BOB scenarios because you kill the 109s pilot or you blow out his control cables or you smoke his engine and some yahoo assumes its still a good target and steals it. Kills with the .303 are going to involve a smoking 109 that returns home and crashes or that slowly glides into the sea or that spirals downwards for a few minutes before hitting the ground.

In all cases, these 109s are DEAD...unable to fight, unable to manuever, unable to do anything...but they aren't missing wings or haven't blown up yet so some assume they still need to keep shooting. Which is silly. Disable the first 109 then find another one and do the same to him.

berg417448
05-29-2006, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Top_Gun_1_0_1:
P-63,manned target drones? more info please http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

RP-63G

The final production version of the Kingcobra was the RP-63G, which was a dedicated flying target version of the Kingcobra. The manufacture of the RP-63G actually continued on into 1946.

Two P-63Cs (43-11723 and 11724) were taken off the production line and modified to RP-63G configuration. Lights were inset into the fuselage sides and into the top surfaces of the outer wings to indicate when the plane was hit, and a flush dorsal air intake was fitted. 450 RP-63Gs were ordered into production as dedicated flying targets (the earlier "Pinballs" being conversions on the production line of P-63 fighters). The RP-63G was powered by the Allison V-1710-135 engine.

However, only 30 production RP-63Gs were built (serials were 45-57283/57312) before production of the Kingcobra finally came to an end. The order for 420 more RP-63Gs were cancelled before they could be built.

A single RP-63G (serial number 45-57300) was fitted with an experimental V-tailed assembly a la Beechcraft Bonanza.

In 1948, the RP-63G was redesignated QF-63G, Q being a pilotless drone classification. However, it was never actually flown as a pilotless drone.

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p63_10.html (http://home.att.net/%7Ejbaugher1/p63_10.html)

IL2-chuter
05-29-2006, 05:29 PM
**** Time for My Opinion **** http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I belive that the whole weight-of-fire/energy on target is a little overplayed. A HUGE variable that doesn't seem to be mentioned very often here is the extraordinarily complex question of target structure. The damage modeling in the game (a tremendous leap forward in flight simming) just isn't as comprehensive or complex enough to realistically portray every in game event (as if we could always tell the difference). This just isn't a realistic expectation. What the game does do it does very well. If you want to start nitpicking at what it "streamlines" so it has a chance to run on your computer you should probably start with flight model "issues" . . . http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

**** This has been My Opinion ****

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

MucusG
05-29-2006, 07:29 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Damage modelling is an area we can move fowrard with, no doubt.

Another aspect that is often overlooked is the range we fire at in this game. In WW2 pilot acounts the ranges were often very small, ie 50m. This will affect the hitting power of rifle calibre weopons a lot as they have no explsive charge to help once the kientic energy dissipates (ie at long range)

So set convergence close, fire at close range, hope for more detailed damage model, fly blue http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

horseback
05-29-2006, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Top_Gun_1_0_1:
P-63,manned target drones? more info please http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Actually used during WWII. The aircraft in question were painted bright yellow, more heavily skinned, the cockpit and canopy were armored, the carb intake was heavily modified, and there were lights mounted about the fuselage & wings that lit up when a hit was scored, like a pinball machine.

The 'defending' gunners in training were firing 'frangible' rounds, which were made of a very soft metal or plastic(?) that would break up when it hit something. Even so, piloting one of the 'Flying Pinballs' could not have been a comfortable job.

cheers

horseback

tigertalon
05-30-2006, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by Top_Gun_1_0_1:
P-63,manned target drones? more info please http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

This for starters:

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p63_10.html (http://home.att.net/%7Ejbaugher1/p63_10.html)

Otherwise: google + RP-63 will do fine

Tomas_W
06-05-2006, 02:14 AM
Here's an interesting article i found on air-to-air firepower;

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

Matz0r
06-05-2006, 04:35 AM
My biggest worry is going to be the killstealers...its brutal flying in BOB scenarios because you kill the 109s pilot or you blow out his control cables or you smoke his engine and some yahoo assumes its still a good target and steals it.

I think this is a big factor when considering the RL guns vs IL2 model guns matter. In IL2 this is not a kill: Engine dead, pilot has exited the plane, plane is on fire, plane has no wings. The average IL2 pilot will not be satisfied until the burning wreck hits the ground, only after the kill confirm has popped up on the hud he might consider letting go of the trigger. However just wounding the plane is usually enough to persuade the enemy to try and get home and most of the time they don't make it. I've stopped caring about kills and just wound the target enough to see him turn toward friendly ground, this usually involves a single pass with a short burst into the engine/cockpit area and then peel off. If someone want to take over and finish him off, so be it. Blowing a plane to pieces or remove a wing might use up alot of ammo in a hurri but it's also overkill.

ddsflyer
06-09-2006, 03:30 PM
Read "THUNDERBOLT" by Robert S. Johnson. His P-47 absorbed all the machinegun ammo at point blank range that an FW-190 had and still flew home. The P-47 was incredibly rugged and needed cannon fire to really bring it down.

Dtools4fools
06-10-2006, 08:54 AM
Read "THUNDERBOLT" by Robert S. Johnson. His P-47 absorbed all the machinegun ammo at point blank range that an FW-190 had and still flew home. The P-47 was incredibly rugged and needed cannon fire to really bring it down.

This is one LUCKY incident. This particular Thunderbolt even survived 20 (!) cannon hits (plus all the MG bullets). Well, it actually did not survive it (she would never fly again as Johnson wrote) but brought its pilot back.
No flat tires, gear still working, no probs with fuel leaks, control cables OK, by some magical luck this plane got had holes like a shieve - but no essential parts being destroyed...
Extraordinary ideed.

Read Knoke on the other hand - he describes a Thunderbolt blowing up after his first burst...
*****

FritzGryphon
06-10-2006, 09:35 AM
His P-47 absorbed all the machinegun ammo

I do hate when the number of shots fired is described, rather than the actual strikes. It doesn't matter that the FW fired all it's ammo. It only matters how many rounds hit, and where.

But 20 cannon hits is certainly impressive.

berg417448
06-10-2006, 12:54 PM
Here are photos of some of the hits to Johnson's P-47:

Cockpit:
http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/56g/rsj5.jpg

Rudder:
http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Johnson1.JPG (http://home.att.net/%7Ehistoryzone/Johnson1.JPG)

Behind Cockpit:
http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Johnson2.JPG (http://home.att.net/%7Ehistoryzone/Johnson2.JPG)

Right side rear:
http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/56g/rsj4.jpg

Dtools4fools
06-10-2006, 02:15 PM
Interesting pictures; I have to say I expected more damage remembering reading the story.
So looked it up:

Walking around his plane he describes "there are 21 gaping holes and jagged tears in the metal from exploding 20mm cannon shells"

Now 21 holes do not neccessarily mean 21 hits...

Then
"I'm still standing in one place when my count of the bullet holes reaches past a hundred"

More detailed he says hits over the entire plane, among them five holes in the propeller, 3x20mm against armor plate, 5X20mm in right wing, 4x20mm in left wing, two 20 in lower half of rudder, one in cockpit.
More holes (without specifying what kind of) in fuselage and tail.

Worth to mention is as well that it was two attacks (mosst probably of two different fighters) that did the damage. The second attacker had used up his 20mm ammo in previous air combat (says Johnson) - and with it most probably part of his MG ammo as well.

****