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Astalano
06-02-2009, 02:19 PM
Assassin's Creed is perhaps my favourite game this generation of gaming. It had a story that really appealed to me, it was fun to play and the visuals were superb.

I loved the game, and I expect to love Assassin's Creed 2. But there's some things that bothered me in the first installment of this epic franchise. No, it was not the pickpocketing or interrogation missions, as I was happy to be stealthy and complete those side missions, unlocking lots of details that I hungrily gobbled up. I love the new variety regardless though.

First was the AI, as it was incredibly easy to remain stealthy. I don't want it to be so easy to play the game. I want there to be a chance of being discovered, I want to really feel like I skillfully evaded capture and pulled off an assassination. I have seen in the recent footage that the AI is smarter, but is seems the character can just kill his pursuers too easily.

Second was the combat. It did look cool, and there were many different executions and weapons to use. The problem was that it was too easy. What I want you to do Ubisoft, is ramp up the difficulty significantly. Maybe after being hit once the character will be injured and respond slower. There should be consequences to open brawls. I want the health to be maybe 2 or 3 bars at most to make the game feel rewarding. Make the AI truely dangerous and unpredictable, push your players to constantly improve their combat skills if they want to survive. Do not place our comrades on every corner of every street and make it too easy.

What I'm ultimately trying to say is make the game challenging. Players may feel frustrated, but there would be more potential than just having an easy game.

I know you might not have time to address my concerns, but I'm hopeful. I really want AC2 to be a great success and a fun experience in every possible way.

Also, one thing I really liked was the idea of mini-assassinations, perhaps bounties. I know these weren't in the final game, but I like performing side missions like these. Just a thought.


SO, I'm organizing a petition for the AC2 community to respond to. Do you want a more challening game?

Astalano
06-02-2009, 02:19 PM
Assassin's Creed is perhaps my favourite game this generation of gaming. It had a story that really appealed to me, it was fun to play and the visuals were superb.

I loved the game, and I expect to love Assassin's Creed 2. But there's some things that bothered me in the first installment of this epic franchise. No, it was not the pickpocketing or interrogation missions, as I was happy to be stealthy and complete those side missions, unlocking lots of details that I hungrily gobbled up. I love the new variety regardless though.

First was the AI, as it was incredibly easy to remain stealthy. I don't want it to be so easy to play the game. I want there to be a chance of being discovered, I want to really feel like I skillfully evaded capture and pulled off an assassination. I have seen in the recent footage that the AI is smarter, but is seems the character can just kill his pursuers too easily.

Second was the combat. It did look cool, and there were many different executions and weapons to use. The problem was that it was too easy. What I want you to do Ubisoft, is ramp up the difficulty significantly. Maybe after being hit once the character will be injured and respond slower. There should be consequences to open brawls. I want the health to be maybe 2 or 3 bars at most to make the game feel rewarding. Make the AI truely dangerous and unpredictable, push your players to constantly improve their combat skills if they want to survive. Do not place our comrades on every corner of every street and make it too easy.

What I'm ultimately trying to say is make the game challenging. Players may feel frustrated, but there would be more potential than just having an easy game.

I know you might not have time to address my concerns, but I'm hopeful. I really want AC2 to be a great success and a fun experience in every possible way.

Also, one thing I really liked was the idea of mini-assassinations, perhaps bounties. I know these weren't in the final game, but I like performing side missions like these. Just a thought.


SO, I'm organizing a petition for the AC2 community to respond to. Do you want a more challening game?

IanXO4
06-02-2009, 06:33 PM
tbh, i kinda like how easy the combat is in ac. fighting usually means that i messed up somewhere, like bumping into a guard. i want to get it over with as quickly as possible so i can continue with what i was originally doing.

ac2 is different tho since they have a clean slate. if they made the fighting more enjoyable (like more flexibility, not just harder for the sake of difficulty), i could potentially get into it.

btw, since you like fast fighting, you may be interested in this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mRMw24xs2I

Grumftheld
06-03-2009, 10:11 AM
I've got to agree with Ian. The combat was awesome as it was. Yes it could be very easy. I could stand there for an hour just blocking and countering with the dagger and not getting hit, but mixing it up between offensive and defensive really lights up the combat. It doesn't need to be easier, it just needs to be evolved, make it so different quality opponents have more skill, better opponents can perhaps block or even counter your execution combo's, and give us more control, rather than one button, let us use different buttons for different strength or direction of attacks. Perhaps X is a standard attack whilst Y is a shot to the head and B is a punch to the gut. I love the combat as it is. What makes AC great is the animation and how fluid and smooth the combat and parkour stylings are. I love getting into huge fights and attacking, then seeing Altair go from an execution to blocking another attack to countering a 3rd all in one seemingly seemless motion, its a thing of utter beauty and pure gratification. An evolution of that to give us more complete control is all that is necessary. Difficulty could be ramped up if necessary siimply by making harder enemies more proficient and blocking and countering and putting together their own combo's. That way the essence of the combat remains, difficulty essentially unchanged, but t becomes much less predictable what could happen meaning that as a player you need to be more prepared.

Astalano
06-03-2009, 11:22 AM
Grum and Ian, I love how the combat itself was. That's not my gripe. My problem is that it eliminated the point of stealth and cunning. You could just pile through maybe 100 guys without getting hit. You don't FEEL like an assassin, you don't have to retreat. Sure, have a powerful guy, but give him a good chance of losing. Otherwise the game feels too easy and pointless. Add more variety, but make your character very vulnerable.

moqqy
06-03-2009, 12:45 PM
I'd like it to remain as easy. I play single player games like a movie, anyways - none of them are challenging, the ones that try to be hard are boring at best. So what I want is just to be able to easily dispatch the guards in an effortless looking way.

I have enough control over myself to not just run straight to the target even if I can, so I'd play just the same even if it was harder.

FifthGeneration
06-03-2009, 01:06 PM
im with Astalano here... Even when i replay AC1 i feel like the combat is way too easy. If it was more penalizing it would increase the replayability of the game significantly.

All that you have to do in order to beat 50 guards is either combo attack, or counter. Then as soon as all the guards are dead and the alarm goes off all you have to do is pray on top of the dead bodies and passing guards looking for an assassin walk right by you without a second thought.

At least you shouldnt be able to kill all the guards until the there are none left then walk away after you assassinate someone... not very stealthy if you ask me...

sensationikke
06-03-2009, 01:23 PM
- I found the combat in AC1 way to easy, making it mostly not worth. However i really liked the game

- Read the question of your poll plz. What is the question (not the thing above, the real poll question!)? Do i like to stay the way it was in AC1 or do i want to get it increased?

Astalano
06-03-2009, 01:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sensationikke:
- I found the combat in AC1 way to easy, making it mostly not worth. However i really liked the game

- Read the question of your poll plz. What is the question (not the thing above, the real poll question!)? Do i like to stay the way it was in AC1 or do i want to get it increased? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you want the combat to be more difficult and the AI more aware of your activities/able to more effectively attack you and discover you.

alexorted
06-05-2009, 04:37 AM
I would also have to agree with Astalano here.

I love the game but the easy cobat completly defeats the purpose of it. You do not feel any sense of achievement when getting away or fighting your way out as it is simply much too easy.

Then only way i have ever...ever!... died on AS is from falling into the water and now they have even taken that out! (I'm glad you can now swim, but how am i ever going to die?!)

I would love a harder game but i understand that many others would not and so i think that they would greatly benefit from a difficulty option in which consumers can choose what difficulty the play in. Other games manage this and i do not see why AS can not do the same.

I would love this game to be near impossible to complete.

obliviondoll
06-05-2009, 08:59 AM
I don't think "vastly more difficult" combat would be in the best interest of the game concept, personally.

A more INTRICATE combat system, with an even more multi-layered system of attacks and counters, would be nice. And that's what it sounds like we're going to get. 30 weapons with unique handling, and at least three different types of enemy AI with different behaviour patterns. Hopefully with their behaviour also modified for their weaponry.

Upping the AI intelligence could make a massive difference too. If you're spamming combo kills, the guards go on the defensive and counter your attacks more. Always using guard/counter? Guards start to use guard-breaks more often. Always sidestepping? Weaker guards will break this by stringing attacks together, to catch you between steps, and more skilled opponents will use a combination of weak and strong attacks to throw off your timing.

I also think WAY less health would be appropriate - If I can win the final battle with the Templars and never lose more than 5 health bars, why give me 20?

Seriously, if they wanted to just build 2-4 player single-system deathmatches in AC1's combat engine, it's surprisingly deep. Every action has a counter, most of which I listed earlier. And follow the previous suggestion of cutting health by about 80 - 90% too. Obviously. Short matches, but more awesome.

sonic075
06-05-2009, 10:37 AM
Hello, I from Russia http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Will excuse that write strange, simply I know English language http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif On the topic: Consider that a fight is in a game, must be more difficult, than in the first parts. Because it is possible it was with lightness to go to 100 guards, and you will die however. From easy fights, in the first parts I was not almost hidden, but went to all opponents. In the second parts, it is necessary to do the got damage even in two times anymore. So would become more realistic.
With respect sonic075 ??????? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Astalano
06-06-2009, 02:12 PM
Some of my other ideas goes something like this:

-You will have 4 bars of health.

The health system will rely on doctors to heal you. Each doctor will have his own backstory and personality. Most request payment, and if you don't pay them, you can either take on a boring side mission to settle the debt or leave. However, when you come back they all react differently. You can take the side missions at any time and if you do all of them, they will all offer you free services. You cannot kill the doctors.

1st Doctor:

This doctor is a holy man. He will heal you for free. He also gives side missions, which are boring, but different, such as defending him while he preaches. There is a chance in his missions for NOTHING to happen, but these are totally optional.

2nd Doctor:

This doctor is pretty evil. He wants payment and if you don't pay him, he gives very nasty side missions, such as conducting experiments on civilians, etc. If you return to him after not paying, he will heal you if you pay, but leave you with the same exact health out of spite. Then you have to pay him again to be properly healed.


3rd Doctor:

This is the typical mid-class, tired, doctor. He will heal you and give you side missions if you don't pay, but these side missions usually involve stuff like picking something up from the market for his family, etc. He will not heal you if you return, but if you pay he doesn't hold a grudge.

4th Doctor:

He is a very mysterious doctor, and you find out from the side missions that he's part of another Assassin's Order in Venice. You offer them a part in your own Order on more dangerous side missions, even honorable Assassinations and rescue missions, but they refuse, they just want to struggle by themselves for Venice. The doctor behaves like the 3rd doctor if you don't pay.


5th Doctor:

This guy is quite nasty as well, and his side missions involve stamping out the competition, since he's in the richest district. He will make you pay even more if you leave after treatment without paying.


Overall, doctors are an important part of staying alive, and a source of missions. Before and after assassinations be sure to pay them a visit.


-There will be 3 awareness levels, like the last game, but the radius within which they realise who you are becomes smaller as you progress to a higher notoriety level. If you are totally infamous, then if you are seen by a guard within a few metres, he will automatically recognize you and check you out. You can avoid this by blending, but if you are almost touching, he will be alerted. Climbing a building will alert them too. At the mid-level stage, guards need to be right next to you to recognize you, so within a metre. They will not be alerted if you climb a building. At the first stage they will only recognize you if you do something really bad, like kill a civilian.

-All enemies can discover you if they're looking, and if you're seen killing an investigating guard while on a bench, they will be alerted.

-Combat will be more fast-paced. Basically, you can avoid a counter endlessly now, so if you're countered, you can either press the A button to avoid it if timed right or the X button to counter or just block. Immediately after a counter, either you or your opponent can counter back, and the cycle continues. If your defence is broken, you can ONLY avoid this with the A button. However, if you do avoid, you have to keep avoiding until your opponent stops attacking. You can only chain together 5 pure attacks if the defender is avoiding until you get tired. This goes for enemies too. After their attack ends, you can attack yourself and if they counter, you will enter a hectic fight. If you are thrown it will do no damage.

-Enemies who you steal their weapon from have an extra short sword with which to attack and defend.


Enemy types:

-Grunts:

A light hit does a one bar bar and a heavy hit takes off two. They can't break your defence. They can counter you with non-lethal counters which do no damage. They have a single bar of life.

-Archers:

One hit takes off one bar, but you can avoid them. If you hold down the A button (xbox 360) then he will automatically avoid any attacks, but you are vulnerable. They are extremely accurate and faster than AC1 and it's very important to clear areas of archers before attempting an assassination. They do not have melee weapons and cannot counter. They can be killed in one hit.

-Medium guards:

One light hit takes off a bar, a medium hit takes off one and a half. They can both counter for a heavier hit that takes off one bar of life and avoid your attacks. They can be killed in two hits.

-Heavy guards (brutes):

One light hit takes off two bars, a medium hit takes off two and a half. They can use lethal counters and softer ones. The softer ones take off three bars of life. They cannot avoid hits, with much heavier armour, but have a lot of health. They mostly use softer counters. They need a whopping three hits to kill.

-Captains:

One light hit takes off two bars, a heavy hit takes off three. They mostly use lethal counters, their softer counters will take off two bars of life. They can avoid attacks and have lighter armour. They don't have much health, they can be killed in two hits, but are very difficult to take down (you will be engaging in VERY hectic melee fights).

-Bosses:

One light hit takes off three bars, a heavy hit will kill you. They can counter-kill you and will always try to do this. They are a ***** to take down. They don't have a lot of life, they only have one bar, BUT will ALWAYS be blocking and countering. You really have to work to find a weakness here, since they will constantly be countering you. Slowly, they will get tired and block and counter less until you kill them or you will get lucky.



What do you think of my ideas?

obliviondoll
06-06-2009, 09:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Astalano:
-You will have 4 bars of health.

-Heavy guards (brutes):

They need a whopping three hits to kill. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. Just no. Make the enemies work on the same principle you do. If you have four health bars, medium armoured enemies should too. Make the brutes have HIGHER health than you, but exchanged for less mobility.

Give the different weapons different damage capabilites - heavy axes will do massive damage, so if you steal a brute's two-handed axe you can kill them fast. If you take a couple of hits from them, they can kill you.

Also, your suggestion of constant counters would be totally unworkable, and bosses being one-hit kills is another bad idea. Each should be unique in some way, some armoured, some not, some fast, some slow.

Also...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Astalano:
The health system will rely on doctors to heal you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Again... SO not. Doctors should only be needed when badly hurt. If you're armoured and take a couple of glancing blows (which is all a skilled fighter should take in a real fight against a weaker opponent) then you'll be bruised, and recover. If you get WOUNDED you need a doctor. If you're just beaten you need rest. Maybe make health not recover when you're running/climbing.

Astalano
06-07-2009, 01:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by obliviondoll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Astalano:
-You will have 4 bars of health.

-Heavy guards (brutes):

They need a whopping three hits to kill. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. Just no. Make the enemies work on the same principle you do. If you have four health bars, medium armoured enemies should too. Make the brutes have HIGHER health than you, but exchanged for less mobility.

Give the different weapons different damage capabilites - heavy axes will do massive damage, so if you steal a brute's two-handed axe you can kill them fast. If you take a couple of hits from them, they can kill you.

Also, your suggestion of constant counters would be totally unworkable, and bosses being one-hit kills is another bad idea. Each should be unique in some way, some armoured, some not, some fast, some slow.

Also...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Astalano:
The health system will rely on doctors to heal you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Again... SO not. Doctors should only be needed when badly hurt. If you're armoured and take a couple of glancing blows (which is all a skilled fighter should take in a real fight against a weaker opponent) then you'll be bruised, and recover. If you get WOUNDED you need a doctor. If you're just beaten you need rest. Maybe make health not recover when you're running/climbing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

-You don't need three hits to be killed, you need less.

-Yep, got nothing against that.

-It's supposed to be a harder experience as you progress. How would it be unworkable? You don't HAVE to fight enemies, but boss fights should be hard. It's not SO hard to pull off a counter or avoid an attack.

-I have no problem against your comment for doctors. But that would require a complex damage simulator, maybe it can't be done in AC. But again, I would like it.

obliviondoll
06-07-2009, 04:35 AM
How would it require a complex damage simulator? Simple example, player has 5 health bars - the first 2 regenerate, if you take three bars damage, you're wounded - possibly have some indication on the character model (bleeding or torn clothing - location-specific to the latest attack would be nice) so people with the HUD off can tell they're injured. When this happens, MAYBE make your character a little slower in combat, or give shorter windows for counters etc. to indicate the character's weakened state. When this happens, character doesn't regenerate any more, and needs a doctor.

I say maybe on the combat effects because it might make the game too hard for new players. Might be worth it if there's multiple difficulty levels - only include combat effects on hard. I doubt anyone would approve of cutting your parkour abilities when wounded (in spite of realism - except maybe on a "master assassin" secret difficulty level) - because that would limit the tactical option of running away, which is supposed to be the assassin's best option after a kill.

And you're assuming every attack from the player does equal damage, which wasn't the case in the original AC, and shouldn't be the case when they give you a range of weapons in an AC game. Did you never notice holding the attack button down did slower, stronger attacks? It was't useful, because the AI blocked most strong attacks, but the AI could use the change in timing to get attacks through when you're countering a lot - it changes the timing for counterattacks, so if you expect a normal attack you get hit. Would be useful if they had multiplaye vs. mode.

And I said the constant counter system would be unworkable because it's true, and I'd assumed it was fairly self-evident why. The fight mechanics don't need a lot of work beyond what was in AC1. The AI's USE of the fight mechanics, and the amount of health you get, are the only real changes that need to be made. The extra weapons will make the fight dynamics far more complex, and therefore difficult, without needing to put unnecessary layers of counterattacks and counter-counters which make combat unwieldly, frustrating, and SLOW. AC combat is meant to be fast and easy to follow. What you suggest would break that. As long as the AI gets better, the combat is going to be great.

Adding the ability to "counter a counter" negates the point of it being what it is. Counters are a response which damages someone overusing basic attacks and attack strings. If the guards in AC1 did this less often, and used other combat techniques more, then players would find more of the depth in the combat system. Take that depth, add in a selection of weapons with different patterns of timing for counters and combos, and different speed and strength of attacks, and at least one unique attack for each of 30 different weapons, and you have something incredible.

Enemies using guard-breaks more often, or staying defensive longer, allowing more guards to join in if you don't take the fight to them, skilled guards (and Templars/targets)using combo-kills occasionally. THAT's how to improve combat. Not bogging it down the way you're suggesting. Because that's what would happen from your ideas.

EDIT: I'm not saying the idea of the endless counter pattern isn't good. It would require more complexity than you're suggesting to be good though, and it would make the game slower, and less of an AC game.

Silhouette1991
06-07-2009, 05:04 AM
Guys,why are you proposing to have so little life bars?Why wouldn't it be to have the bars like in the first game?If we can have more life bars,then when enemy hits you it could take you for example 3,or 4 bars.You guys want that combat becomes really hard.If you are a true assassin,you are not gonna be spoted,and you are not gonna have to fight,right?I just think that there shouldn't be so little life bars.The only thing that needs changes is damage that your opponent hits you,that's all

Astalano
06-07-2009, 05:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by obliviondoll:
How would it require a complex damage simulator? Simple example, player has 5 health bars - the first 2 regenerate, if you take three bars damage, you're wounded - possibly have some indication on the character model (bleeding or torn clothing - location-specific to the latest attack would be nice) so people with the HUD off can tell they're injured. When this happens, MAYBE make your character a little slower in combat, or give shorter windows for counters etc. to indicate the character's weakened state. When this happens, character doesn't regenerate any more, and needs a doctor.

I say maybe on the combat effects because it might make the game too hard for new players. Might be worth it if there's multiple difficulty levels - only include combat effects on hard. I doubt anyone would approve of cutting your parkour abilities when wounded (in spite of realism - except maybe on a "master assassin" secret difficulty level) - because that would limit the tactical option of running away, which is supposed to be the assassin's best option after a kill.

And you're assuming every attack from the player does equal damage, which wasn't the case in the original AC, and shouldn't be the case when they give you a range of weapons in an AC game. Did you never notice holding the attack button down did slower, stronger attacks? It was't useful, because the AI blocked most strong attacks, but the AI could use the change in timing to get attacks through when you're countering a lot - it changes the timing for counterattacks, so if you expect a normal attack you get hit. Would be useful if they had multiplaye vs. mode.

And I said the constant counter system would be unworkable because it's true, and I'd assumed it was fairly self-evident why. The fight mechanics don't need a lot of work beyond what was in AC1. The AI's USE of the fight mechanics, and the amount of health you get, are the only real changes that need to be made. The extra weapons will make the fight dynamics far more complex, and therefore difficult, without needing to put unnecessary layers of counterattacks and counter-counters which make combat unwieldly, frustrating, and SLOW. AC combat is meant to be fast and easy to follow. What you suggest would break that. As long as the AI gets better, the combat is going to be great.

Adding the ability to "counter a counter" negates the point of it being what it is. Counters are a response which damages someone overusing basic attacks and attack strings. If the guards in AC1 did this less often, and used other combat techniques more, then players would find more of the depth in the combat system. Take that depth, add in a selection of weapons with different patterns of timing for counters and combos, and different speed and strength of attacks, and at least one unique attack for each of 30 different weapons, and you have something incredible.

Enemies using guard-breaks more often, or staying defensive longer, allowing more guards to join in if you don't take the fight to them, skilled guards (and Templars/targets)using combo-kills occasionally. THAT's how to improve combat. Not bogging it down the way you're suggesting. Because that's what would happen from your ideas.

EDIT: I'm not saying the idea of the endless counter pattern isn't good. It would require more complexity than you're suggesting to be good though, and it would make the game slower, and less of an AC game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anyway, I call that AC2 will still be really easy like AC1.

Astalano
06-07-2009, 05:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silhouette1991:
Guys,why are you proposing to have so little life bars?Why wouldn't it be to have the bars like in the first game?If we can have more life bars,then when enemy hits you it could take you for example 3,or 4 bars.You guys want that combat becomes really hard.If you are a true assassin,you are not gonna be spoted,and you are not gonna have to fight,right?I just think that there shouldn't be so little life bars.The only thing that needs changes is damage that your opponent hits you,that's all </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same thing basically. But having more health means you will find less skilled guards less of a hassle. Having a few health bars means that all fights are equally nerve-racking.

obliviondoll
06-07-2009, 05:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silhouette1991:
Guys,why are you proposing to have so little life bars?Why wouldn't it be to have the bars like in the first game?If we can have more life bars,then when enemy hits you it could take you for example 3,or 4 bars.You guys want that combat becomes really hard.If you are a true assassin,you are not gonna be spoted,and you are not gonna have to fight,right?I just think that there shouldn't be so little life bars.The only thing that needs changes is damage that your opponent hits you,that's all </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have 20 bars, and lose 3 - 4 per hit, why not just have 6 - 7 bars and lose one per hit? The reason I say to have less health bars is because in AC1 I can get literally 20+ enemies chasing me and never drop below 15/20 bars. It depends to a great extent how they change up the combat system, but I doubt having more than 10 health bars by endgame will do anything but make the game too easy.

And Astalano, I'm hoping you're wrong on AC2 being easy. More important to me though, is that they take better advantage of the depth they already put into combat, while hopefully adding more.

I'm also still hoping they give us a 2-player vs. mode somewhere in an AC game. Even if it is just AC1 combat controls with 2 characters in an arena and no way to exit combat. That would be an awesome PSN/XBL cheap downloadable game. An online mode and maybe an arena-based AI might be nice for people with only one controller.

Astalano
06-07-2009, 06:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by obliviondoll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silhouette1991:
Guys,why are you proposing to have so little life bars?Why wouldn't it be to have the bars like in the first game?If we can have more life bars,then when enemy hits you it could take you for example 3,or 4 bars.You guys want that combat becomes really hard.If you are a true assassin,you are not gonna be spoted,and you are not gonna have to fight,right?I just think that there shouldn't be so little life bars.The only thing that needs changes is damage that your opponent hits you,that's all </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have 20 bars, and lose 3 - 4 per hit, why not just have 6 - 7 bars and lose one per hit? The reason I say to have less health bars is because in AC1 I can get literally 20+ enemies chasing me and never drop below 15/20 bars. It depends to a great extent how they change up the combat system, but I doubt having more than 10 health bars by endgame will do anything but make the game too easy.

And Astalano, I'm hoping you're wrong on AC2 being easy. More important to me though, is that they take better advantage of the depth they already put into combat, while hopefully adding more.

I'm also still hoping they give us a 2-player vs. mode somewhere in an AC game. Even if it is just AC1 combat controls with 2 characters in an arena and no way to exit combat. That would be an awesome PSN/XBL cheap downloadable game. An online mode and maybe an arena-based AI might be nice for people with only one controller. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope I'm wrong too, but everything points to it. The trailer, the gameplay, everything.

Silhouette1991
06-07-2009, 08:26 AM
Say what you want,but everything will depend on the opponent's AI.I sure hope that's gonna be high,because then it won't matter how many life bars you have xD

Astalano
06-07-2009, 10:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silhouette1991:
Say what you want,but everything will depend on the opponent's AI.I sure hope that's gonna be high,because then it won't matter how many life bars you have xD </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed, the AI has to hold up as well.

Losk_
06-07-2009, 10:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Astalano:
I hope I'm wrong too, but everything points to it. The trailer, the gameplay, everything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We should keep in mind that the gameplay we saw at E3 was specifically constructed for E3. So those guard positions were set to demonstrate the different assassinations. There were no guards positioned elsewhere to spot Ezio's movements. It's entirely possible these guards were dumbed down to make sure the live demo would be smooth.

I really hope they will do a hard difficulty setting. I would be happy even if it was simple: Restrict the player health bar and set all the guard AI to the highest settings.

For AC1 you have to make up your own rules for what a successful fight is. I always aim to never be struck, and I go on the offensive as much as possible, instead of relying on counter kills. If i get thrown to the ground I consider that a total failure. Realistically those 10 guards would just stab me on the ground, and that would be the end.

moqqy
06-07-2009, 10:40 AM
Indeed-y. If the combat is easy, you just give yourself challenges.

Astalano
06-07-2009, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Losk_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Astalano:
I hope I'm wrong too, but everything points to it. The trailer, the gameplay, everything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We should keep in mind that the gameplay we saw at E3 was specifically constructed for E3. So those guard positions were set to demonstrate the different assassinations. There were no guards positioned elsewhere to spot Ezio's movements. It's entirely possible these guards were dumbed down to make sure the live demo would be smooth.

I really hope they will do a hard difficulty setting. I would be happy even if it was simple: Restrict the player health bar and set all the guard AI to the highest settings.

For AC1 you have to make up your own rules for what a successful fight is. I always aim to never be struck, and I go on the offensive as much as possible, instead of relying on counter kills. If i get thrown to the ground I consider that a total failure. Realistically those 10 guards would just stab me on the ground, and that would be the end. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but it's pretty weird constructing your own battles. It's just compromising for bad game design.

And the trailer had Ezio take out 3 guards no problem, so I'm worried whether it will be really easy.

Silhouette1991
06-07-2009, 10:52 AM
No worries guys,IT'S JUST A TEST PHASE!There's more work to be done.I doubt that they're gonna ruin the game,they have learned few things from AC1 right?

DimmuB0rgir
06-07-2009, 12:04 PM
Yeah heres hoping they have got rid of the easy mode combat. It was pretty much just wait for the guard to swing and counter the whole game - although based on the E3 demo (which I do know was a fabrication for the show) it seems theyve replaced the easy mode counter with disarm.

Astalano
06-07-2009, 12:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DimmuB0rgir:
Yeah heres hoping they have got rid of the easy mode combat. It was pretty much just wait for the guard to swing and counter the whole game - although based on the E3 demo (which I do know was a fabrication for the show) it seems theyve replaced the easy mode counter with disarm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that's only for the unarmed state.

Baskot
06-07-2009, 04:13 PM
Wtf guys? Why are all *****ing about how difficul the game should be? Just make an option where u can choose for like:

Easy
Normal
Hard
Impossible

That way everybody will be happy...

obliviondoll
06-07-2009, 10:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Baskot:
Wtf guys? Why are all *****ing about how difficul the game should be? Just make an option where u can choose for like:

Easy
Normal
Hard
Impossible

That way everybody will be happy... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Several people have already sugested this idea. But you're ignoring that there are different ways to make a game "harder" - and in some games, some of them don't work too well (piling more enemies on is a good example of one which doesn't work in AC)

My personal "hard mode" in AC was when I decided to go through the entire game again without a single unnecessary killing. When attacking an assassination target, only the target was allowed to die. Obviously excluding fights you can't run away from.

bladencrowd
06-08-2009, 09:52 AM
When I played Ac1 I never was actually challenged in combat.The only died from a foolish jump or falling in 3 feet of water. Combat is a complete joke once you have counters. Anyways heres what Ac2 SHOULD be but probably wont...

Ezio starts with 5 health bars. Through the game he gets to 10. If he uses normal/light weapons he normally takes of 1 bar of life. A strong attack should take off 2. If he uses strong/2 handed weapons he should take off 2 bars normally and 4 with a strong attack. The gun should take of 5 bars of damage. If it were instant kill, it would be too cheap. When I fight any group of guards there should be a good chance I die. It would make combat Much more rewarding.

The first 3 level of guards we encountered in AC1 should be like this.

The weakest one should have 3 bars of life. They should normally take off 1 bar of life and 2 bars with a strong attack.
The mid level guards should have 5 bars of life.They should normally take off 1 bar of life and 2 bars with a strong attack.
The strongest guards should have 7 bars of life.
They should normally take off 2 bars of life and 4 bars with a strong attack.

I think that the dagger wielders should have 3 bars of life and take off one bar of damage (no strong attack).

Brutes should have 10 bars of life. They should take off 3 bars normally of 6 with a strong attack.

Leaders should have 12 bars of life. These guys should be a really pain to take down until late in the game. Normally they should take off 4 bars and 8 bars with a strong attack.

Archers are the same as a low level guard hand to hand. With the bow they should take of 2 bars of damage.

Seekers are the same as high level guards.

I liked the combat system in Ac1 (counters, dodging), so I didn't think it should be changed.

Oh yea....How the hell can you jump of a castle and live? No insane jumps please.

New P.S http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I will never understand how a rock give the same damage as a sword to the face. Same with a punch. Wait a sec...interrogation guys punch the same as a Templar with a sword. AC1's combat system sure was screwed up.

Silhouette1991
06-08-2009, 03:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Mon June 08 2009 08:52 Hide Post
When I played Ac1 I never was actually challenged in combat.The only died from a foolish jump or falling in 3 feet of water. Combat is a complete joke once you have counters. Anyways heres what Ac2 SHOULD be but probably wont...

Ezio starts with 5 health bars. Through the game he gets to 10. If he uses normal/light weapons he normally takes of 1 bar of life. A strong attack should take off 2. If he uses strong/2 handed weapons he should take off 2 bars normally and 4 with a strong attack. The gun should take of 5 bars of damage. If it were instant kill, it would be too cheap. When I fight any group of guards there should be a good chance I die. It would make combat Much more rewarding.

The first 3 level of guards we encountered in AC1 should be like this.

The weakest one should have 3 bars of life. They should normally take off 1 bar of life and 2 bars with a strong attack.
The mid level guards should have 5 bars of life.They should normally take off 1 bar of life and 2 bars with a strong attack.
The strongest guards should have 7 bars of life.
They should normally take off 2 bars of life and 4 bars with a strong attack.

I think that the dagger wielders should have 3 bars of life and take off one bar of damage (no strong attack).

Brutes should have 10 bars of life. They should take off 3 bars normally of 6 with a strong attack.

Leaders should have 12 bars of life. These guys should be a really pain to take down until late in the game. Normally they should take of 4 bars and 8 bars with a strong attack.

Archers are the same as a low level guard hand to hand. With the bow they should take of 2 bars of damage.

Seekers are the same as high level guards.

I liked the combat system in Ac1 (counters, dodging), so I didn't think it should be changed.

Oh yea....How the hell can you jump of a castle and live? No insane jumps please.


P.S
Can anyone think of 30 weapons that might be in the game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
[quote]When I played Ac1 I never was actually challenged in combat.The only died from a foolish jump or falling in 3 feet of water. Combat is a complete joke once you have counters. Anyways heres what Ac2 SHOULD be but probably wont...

Ezio starts with 5 health bars. Through the game he gets to 10. If he uses normal/light weapons he normally takes of 1 bar of life. A strong attack should take off 2. If he uses strong/2 handed weapons he should take off 2 bars normally and 4 with a strong attack. The gun should take of 5 bars of damage. If it were instant kill, it would be too cheap. When I fight any group of guards there should be a good chance I die. It would make combat Much more rewarding.

The first 3 level of guards we encountered in AC1 should be like this.

The weakest one should have 3 bars of life. They should normally take off 1 bar of life and 2 bars with a strong attack.
The mid level guards should have 5 bars of life.They should normally take off 1 bar of life and 2 bars with a strong attack.
The strongest guards should have 7 bars of life.
They should normally take off 2 bars of life and 4 bars with a strong attack.

I think that the dagger wielders should have 3 bars of life and take off one bar of damage (no strong attack).

Brutes should have 10 bars of life. They should take off 3 bars normally of 6 with a strong attack.

Leaders should have 12 bars of life. These guys should be a really pain to take down until late in the game. Normally they should take of 4 bars and 8 bars with a strong attack.

Archers are the same as a low level guard hand to hand. With the bow they should take of 2 bars of damage.

Seekers are the same as high level guards.

I liked the combat system in Ac1 (counters, dodging), so I didn't think it should be changed.

Oh yea....How the hell can you jump of a castle and live? No insane jumps please.


P.S
Can anyone think of 30 weapons that might be in the game?
You already have that topic started about kinds of weapons.Don't wanna mix up topics,right xD?

KlNDRED
06-08-2009, 03:43 PM
I agree.
Usually games get harder as you go, AC1 became easier once counters were introduced.
I read someone saying that they are happy with the fact AC1 was easy because if they did something foolish like bump in a guard they could get out of it quickly....yea true but the whole point is that you are silent when approaching for the kill and that you are cunning and accurate bla bla bla. If their are no consequence to your mistakes, then stealth becomes obsolete and a mere accessory

Silhouette1991
06-08-2009, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I agree.
Usually games get harder as you go, AC1 became easier once counters were introduced.
I read someone saying that they are happy with the fact AC1 was easy because if they did something foolish like bump in a guard they could get out of it quickly....yea true but the whole point is that you are silent when approaching for the kill and that you are cunning and accurate bla bla bla. If their are no consequence to your mistakes, then stealth becomes obsolete and a mere accessory </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You don't have to act like assassin.You can just go through town and stab everyone in the back if you want http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

bladencrowd
06-09-2009, 08:12 AM
I glad ubisoft is allowing you to drive boats and swim. I think i spent 75% of my time on a rooftop in Ac1, 20% on a horse and 5% walking...

xdiesp-six
06-09-2009, 09:53 AM
A difficulty setting like that of Thief would be nice.

Meaning, the harder you select the mission to be, the more\harder objectives it gets other than just the better AI.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc123/xdiesp/signature_protest-1.jpg (http://www.petitiononline.com/DoppAC2/petition.html)

FifthGeneration
06-09-2009, 02:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bladencrowd:


New P.S http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I will never understand how a rock give the same damage as a sword to the face. Same with a punch. Wait a sec...interrogation guys punch the same as a Templar with a sword. AC1's combat system sure was screwed up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There wasnt really "health bars" in AC1
It was actually some sort of synchrinization effect that meant that you could only deviate so far from what Altair or Ezio would have actually done..
example: altair never jumped off of a hundred foot castle in real life so when he jumps off a castle in the animus and hits the ground desmond gets ejected from the animus and stars over

same with getting hit by swords and stones, altair never got hit by stones, swords or arrows so when desmond playying as altair in the animus gets hit by a stone he loses some synchrizing with his ancestor's DNA

if that make sense, it sounded betterr in my head

SWJS
06-09-2009, 03:42 PM
Honestly I'd be ok either way, however, I'd rather the combat stayed easy. I remember that in many other games, including The Force Unleashed, I would die because enemies would attack me, knock me down, and then keep attacking without giving me a chance to get up, killing me. I play games to relax and get in my happy place. But that's impossible when the game I'm playing is so frustratingly difficult, even on the easy difficulty. If I'm fighting a group of 20 guards, if they all gang up on me at once and don't give me a chance to recover, I will be extremely annoyed, because chances are I'd have to redo the mission again.

That's one reason why I hated the Sinbrad mission in the first game. He was on a boat in the water, at a dock connected to his well guarded fortress. I tried going across the boats and posts, but the jittery free-run wouldn't jump toward the post the right way, and I drowned more than 20 times. Once I finally got to him, he saw me and ran, and I had to go back across the boats and chase the coward through the city before I finally assassinated him.

I'm very pleased swimming was added in this one. I don't care if th clothes he wears wouldn't be right for swimming, all I care about is the fact he can swim, and if they do another Sinbrad type mission, I wont have to get so frustrated going over water now.

obliviondoll
06-10-2009, 07:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:
Honestly I'd be ok either way, however, I'd rather the combat stayed easy. I remember that in many other games, including The Force Unleashed, I would die because enemies would attack me, knock me down, and then keep attacking without giving me a chance to get up, killing me. I play games to relax and get in my happy place. But that's impossible when the game I'm playing is so frustratingly difficult, even on the easy difficulty. If I'm fighting a group of 20 guards, if they all gang up on me at once and don't give me a chance to recover, I will be extremely annoyed, because chances are I'd have to redo the mission again.

That's one reason why I hated the Sinbrad mission in the first game. He was on a boat in the water, at a dock connected to his well guarded fortress. I tried going across the boats and posts, but the jittery free-run wouldn't jump toward the post the right way, and I drowned more than 20 times. Once I finally got to him, he saw me and ran, and I had to go back across the boats and chase the coward through the city before I finally assassinated him.

I'm very pleased swimming was added in this one. I don't care if th clothes he wears wouldn't be right for swimming, all I care about is the fact he can swim, and if they do another Sinbrad type mission, I wont have to get so frustrated going over water now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On your Force Unleashed comment, during most knockdowns you can immediately do a shockwave recover move by hitting jump as you go down (timing - or constant mashing while falling - is important) - It doesn't knock enemies back, but there's a pretty shockwave animation kind of like a mini Force Repulse. And once you've unlocked a decent amount of powers, NOTHING in that game is hard on Easy. And each time you die, you just get a chance to accumulate more experience before trying again.

Back to the AC comments though, You don't have to chase Sibrand by following the boats, if you go around to the right, you don't have to make a single jump getting onto his ship (there's one optional jump you can make instead of following the walkway - limits his retreat options - but it's onto the broadside of the ship, so no real risk of falling there either).

And other than having to slow down and occasionally having issues with the jump direction in the docks area, I don't have much trouble with AC not allowing Altair to swim, although I think Ezio's been made in such a way that swimming would be possible.

Back to the too easy point... I do think combat's too easy in AC, but I don't think making brutes capable of taking 8 health in a single hit is such a great idea. Or making Ezio capable of taking 4 in a single hit with a regular weapon. 1 and 2 damage for single-handed weapons wielded by Ezio, or a "seeker" enemy. 2 and 3 damage for two-handed weapons wielded by the same. 3 and 4 damage for two-handed weapons wielded by a "brute." If you're caught on a bench and don't assassinate the attacker, they get a free light hit on you as you enter combat. If you're caught in a haystack, you get impaled on a spear.

You SHOULD be able to counter-kill lightly armoured guards and targets who fight back. You should have to hurt brutes or heavier-armoured assassination targets before being able to kill them off a counter. And the different weapons should require different timing for combo kills and counters, some whould make one or the other easier, some should adjust where in the strike your "window of opportunity" is, so as to alter the dynamic that little bit that makes it feel like a different weapon.

Most importantly, though... Enemies should be more likely to vary their tactics. To start, "normal" guards should use guard-breaks about as often as in AC1, but should follow-up with a second attack more often. Seekers should fight more defensively. Brutes should be aggressive, often using guard-breaks, and should have a small chance of following up successful attacks with a combo-kill (but not after a guard break). Leader-type enemies should be capable of combo-killing after a guard-break, but they will only do this if you're below 5 bars of health. If you're often fighting defensively, enemies should increase the likelihood of using guardbreaks, and throws, which get through a basic defense. If you're mostly aggressive, the enemies should defend more often while you'e attacking them, and flanking enemies should be more likely to counter while you're attacking and catch you off-guard. But these should only slightly adjust the AI type's behaviour, not completely retrain them, so the different types of enemies retain their individuality.

Astalano
06-28-2009, 12:41 PM
Bumped.

Black_Widow9
06-28-2009, 12:48 PM
Please don't bump Topics http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Astalano
06-28-2009, 12:57 PM
Sorry. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

dogmeat_287
06-28-2009, 05:48 PM
I think the fight system is wayyyyy too easy... jsut hold high profile and then sometimes a leg or weapon ahnd button... youll never lose any health if u fight like that. They should make you tiem your blocks.

Xm3buX
06-29-2009, 10:11 AM
I thinnk it's fine how it is, but I really wouldn't be too bothered either way. I think maybe it would be a good idea to have adjustable difficulty.

Silhouette1991
06-29-2009, 10:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xm3buX:
I thinnk it's fine how it is, but I really wouldn't be too bothered either way. I think maybe it would be a good idea to have adjustable difficulty. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah it would be nice.But they mentioned that combat will be more intense and more difficult.Well I sure hope so http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

obliviondoll
06-30-2009, 07:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dogmeat_287:
I think the fight system is wayyyyy too easy... jsut hold high profile and then sometimes a leg or weapon ahnd button... youll never lose any health if u fight like that. They should make you tiem your blocks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Timing your blocks isn't very AC the way I see it. It's easy to block, but it's also easy to do a guard-break (step button followed by attack), so if you have enemies smart enough to do this when you're obviously blocking a lot, it will instantly make the player less reliant on blocking.

I still hope they give us a multiplayer offline arena mode.

Silhouette1991
06-30-2009, 03:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by obliviondoll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dogmeat_287:
I think the fight system is wayyyyy too easy... jsut hold high profile and then sometimes a leg or weapon ahnd button... youll never lose any health if u fight like that. They should make you tiem your blocks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Timing your blocks isn't very AC the way I see it. It's easy to block, but it's also easy to do a guard-break (step button followed by attack), so if you have enemies smart enough to do this when you're obviously blocking a lot, it will instantly make the player less reliant on blocking.

I still hope they give us a multiplayer offline arena mode. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Screw multiplayer,AC is the single player game,let it stay that way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.