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XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 07:56 PM
When IL2 came out, it made a huge splash. But one glitch was the swastikas. Did the development team leave them out for "sentimental" reasons, or was it an oversight?
I am still flying the origional, and wonder if FB has the problem remedied? Is there a patch for it inIL2?

The Young Lions in the Forest suffer and lack, But thoser who know the Lord Shall not want of any good thing. Keep your tongue from Evil and your lips from speaking deciet. Depart from evil, do good and pursue it!

>Psalms

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 07:56 PM
When IL2 came out, it made a huge splash. But one glitch was the swastikas. Did the development team leave them out for "sentimental" reasons, or was it an oversight?
I am still flying the origional, and wonder if FB has the problem remedied? Is there a patch for it inIL2?

The Young Lions in the Forest suffer and lack, But thoser who know the Lord Shall not want of any good thing. Keep your tongue from Evil and your lips from speaking deciet. Depart from evil, do good and pursue it!

>Psalms

Cpt.LoneRanger
09-23-2003, 08:01 PM
The swatiskas are out for political reasons for one point and for simple marketing, because games or anything with swatiskas is forbidden in Germany.

Infact they think they need to protect us from that celtic sun-symbol.

Maybe German law-makers think looking at a "Hakenkreuz" would let all our right arms raise? IMHO forbidding something is making it more interesting and politically speaking, to lay silence on a problem doesn't solve it.

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/CptLoneRanger.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 08:35 PM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
Maybe German law-makers think looking at a
- "Hakenkreuz" would let all our right arms raise?

U're right, we can't deny the past, what happened, happened, so those things existed, and we must accept that, good, or bad, the comunism probably did more victims than the nazi, but the red star is not a forbidden sign...(no offence intended for any russians here) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 08:37 PM
I'd rather they had left it in, but I actually think the planes look a bit better without the ugly black heizankruez on the fin. Leaves more room for victory tallies /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Plus, the blue Von Rossen (sp?) cross on the Finnish planes looks much better.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 08:38 PM
The lack of swastika is somewhat understandable but stupid lack of reality imo.

But i can't think of ANY reason why blue Von Rosen's cross of the finnish planes was not present in 1.0.

Reiskapappa

"Be your own disciple"

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 08:44 PM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
- The swatiskas are out for political reasons for one
- point and for simple marketing, because games or
- anything with swatiskas is forbidden in Germany.
-
- Infact they think they need to protect us from that
- celtic sun-symbol.
-
- Maybe German law-makers think looking at a
- "Hakenkreuz" would let all our right arms raise?
- IMHO forbidding something is making it more
- interesting and politically speaking, to lay silence
- on a problem doesn't solve it.
-
Also, maybe they should check Return To Castle Wolfenstien!



<Center>
<table>
<tr>
<TD align="center">
<font color="WHITE">"If one must kill or be killed. It must be done with dignity" (The famous words of Adolf Galland)</font>
</TD>
</TR>
<tr>
<TD align="center">
http://www.d-n-i.net/images/f-22_ote.png
</tr>
</TD>
<tr>
<TD>
<center><font color="white">***F/A-22 Raptor***</font></center>
</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD><center><font color="White">This is the first plane I ever flew and also the first I ever shot down!</FONT></center>
</TD>
</TR>
</table>
</CENTER>

Cpt.LoneRanger
09-23-2003, 08:48 PM
RTCW is forbidden in the original US version. There was a witch-hunt as the game was released in the US, with up to 3 years in prison for anybody, who sold the US-Version in Germany.

Where is the relativity in this?

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/CptLoneRanger.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 08:52 PM
Go to Mudmovers and IL-2 essential files then swastika enabling program, this put swastika's on tail and also correct marking on finnish airplanes--after installing you most start the game from the il2hk.exe to see the beauty of the swas in all its glory---great mod patch--doesnt effect any other aspect of the game, just adds the realism of the swastika--hope this helps...

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 09:08 PM
Hi all,

The low in germanie and many ahter country`s , is not only to forbid the swastika buht to protect the war victums to.
The are many war victums still alive today so think about that!!!!!!!!

Respect it and end this discusian.

Greatings all,
I/KG26_Oranje

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 09:23 PM
CrazyBell wrote:
- Did the development team
- leave them out for "sentimental" reasons, or was it
- an oversight?

I'd hardly call it "sentimental", many people are offend by the Swastika, and It seems that Oleg is 'erring on the side of caution'. Either annoy people for not including it or offend others by including it.

I'm somewhat disturbed by the illegality of it in Germany. It almost seems like they're trying to erase history.

Personally, including the swastika doesn't bother me despite the fact that my maternal Grandfather survived Auswitz and my father survived a POW camp ( his saving grace was that, even though he was an "inferior Slav", he possessed enough Aryian feature like the shape of his nose and blue eyes, to allow him to live on a slave laborer ). By denying the swastika, I would be denying a dark part of our history and the suffering they endured, IMHO.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 09:24 PM
My parent's neighbour in Germany was an He 111 pilot and his wife showed me the model of his plane. He himself had taped little green dots all over the tail to hide the Swastika. His wife said her husband was a pilot and not a Nazi and he didn't want to be known as one.

I think they don't want people playing a game and choosing the side with the Swastika and then getting a bit too comfortable with the idea of flying for Nazi Germany.

Or it's just easier to arrest neo nazis this way, if you aren't supposed to have Swastikas then it's easier to put you away.

The best bit about the law in Germany was when some English football hooligans were in a beer garden in Munich and decided to pi$$ the local population off by doing Roman (Hitler) salutes. They were promptly arrested for doing this as it's also against the law lol. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Being half Scottish and Half German I can't help but laugh when the English football fans get busted.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 09:39 PM
CrazyBell wrote:
- When IL2 came out, it made a huge splash. But one
- glitch was the swastikas. Did the development team
- leave them out for "sentimental" reasons, or was it
- an oversight?
- I am still flying the origional, and wonder if FB
- has the problem remedied? Is there a patch for it
- inIL2?

Who cares? They were left out for leagal reasons but really, does it make that much of a dif?

With all of the FM/DM problems IL-2: FB has there are much bigger, better fish to fry.

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XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 09:46 PM
there are swasticas in the medal of honor games.
lou69

THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN WON WITHOUT THE CANADIANS

Cpt.LoneRanger
09-23-2003, 09:55 PM
Lou69 wrote:
- there are swasticas in the medal of honor games.
- lou69

Not in the German version.... =/

It's okay, to say some people may be offended by a swatiska, but then, why is it only forbidden in Germany, if THAT was the reason?

I think it is the wrong way to deal with history and apart from that, it's ridivulous, to some degree. Just as the FSK makes HL-enemies to bleed green, C&C Generals to fight droids, etc.

I don't think a game makes a murderer or a nazi. Like a femal politican said a year ago in Germany:

"When the last LAN-party has been cancelled,
the last Casino has been closed
and the last computer confiscated,
we'll realize that we still have
to educate our children ourselves."

Pitty, I don't remember the name.

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 10:03 PM
Xnomad wrote:
- I think they don't want people playing a game and
- choosing the side with the Swastika and then getting
- a bit too comfortable with the idea of flying for
- Nazi Germany.

Uh...I'm sorry, but that's really quite stupid. This sort of thinking is akin to blaming DOOM for kids shooting each other in schools. IL-2 is just a game - not a piece of National Socialist propaganda. It's a sim that prides itself on the authenticity of its aircraft, flight models and whatnot - not a Nazi recruitment device.

Most of the time I fly German planes, and have enabled swastikas with IL-2 Stab. I haven't seen any adverse effects so far. Sure, my left arm sometimes snaps into this rigid salute and I catch myself yelling GET IN THE OVEN every now and then, but that's just a nervous tic or something.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 10:16 PM
Crayon, that was horrible but so funny at the same time /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif Bad crayon! Bad!

Cpt.LoneRanger
09-23-2003, 10:32 PM
CrayonEater wrote:
- Most of the time I fly German planes, and have
- enabled swastikas with IL-2 Stab. I haven't seen
- any adverse effects so far. Sure, my left arm
- sometimes snaps into this rigid salute and I catch
- myself yelling GET IN THE OVEN every now and then,
- but that's just a nervous tic or something.

As long as it is the *LEFT* arm, I see no problem, and I like pizza in my oven /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 10:38 PM
LOL I wasn't saying that was the case and it's not my type of thinking I was trying to think of a reason why they have banned it from games in Germany, I use IL2 Stab as well. And it's a simple as that if you want Swastikas you can have em.

The Swastika has taken the place of the Star of David in Germany now, 60 years ago you would get locked up for wearing the star and now it's the Swastika. <- please take this lightly I'm making a joke /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 10:55 PM
Another option for you is to download skins from www.il2skins.com (http://www.il2skins.com) many of them have the Swastika on the tail.
Personally, when I fly a German plane I want the look to be authentic as it can get. And when I'm flying Allied aircraft I like to think I'm shooting down a real German, not a politically correct German wanna be pilot.

<CENTER>http://mysite.verizon.net/res0adci/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sigsmall.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 11:41 PM
Edited by Vengeanze.
Sorry. No Swastikas in here. Linked your pics.



pic 1 (http://users.pandora.be/vnnet/forum/Englishpostcard.jpg)

pic 2 (http://users.pandora.be/vnnet/forum/lucieatwell02.jpg)

pic 3 (http://users.pandora.be/vnnet/forum/swastika.gif)



people are idiots.
an individual is smart.



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Message Edited on 09/24/0309:53PM by Vengeanze

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 12:06 AM
MZ6 wrote:

-
- I'm somewhat disturbed by the illegality of it in
- Germany. It almost seems like they're trying to
- erase history.
-

It's not forbidden in a historical, scientific, or educational context. But FB is not considered to be a historical study, it's a game.

If you'd live in Germany you wouldn't come to the conclusion that they're trying to erase history. It's always present in the media.

---------------
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Cpt.LoneRanger
09-24-2003, 12:21 AM
@plumps

I doubt anybody says Germany is trying to erase history. It really has a lot of documentations and articles about the 3rd Reich and stuff like that.

But the swatiska is not only a question of the past, but of the present, too. Not only in Germany.

And saying you are not allowed to use that symbol doesn't change the fact, that there is something like neo-nazism. And if you talk about the present situation, it is really a question if forbidding anything that has to do with 3rd Reich from non-scientific/journalisitc-public is really the best way of dealing with the problem, you know.

As it was allready said. All countries of the world have some dark history, even in and after WW2, but I really doubt this law is doing any good.

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 12:24 AM
how many times do we need to go through this.



<center><img src=http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroline1/cwos.jpg></center>

sniper-690

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 12:26 AM
well even with trackir enabled ... no matter how hard I try and see the tail of my aircraft I just cant get a glimpse of the markings on it

so unfortunately i never know if i have a swastika or not

<center> http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SQDLAtUWiWZ3BKw19!aryp7v3C1h1DuNwpHOOuqhlraGSyMAY KiPEOZAA1OBgsLu*Sa0UQ2my0PiFyvNkJ5K7Clsoy7yNtEvOXY nHDuPNiotpZACY2oJxw/aircraftround.jpg </center>

<center> http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SQDLAtUWiWZ3BKw19!aryp7v3C1h1DuNwpHOOuqhlraGSyMAY KiPEOZAA1OBgsLu*Sa0UQ2my0PiFyvNkJ5K7Clsoy7yNtEvOXY nHDuPNiotpZACY2oJxw/aircraftround.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 12:49 AM
I think the current 'swastika-enabler' program is pretty lousy in it's design. (I'm not complaining about it's working, because it works /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ).

Only, you need to execute that program instead of IL2FB.exe.
by this way, I am unable to use my ThrustMapper program (I am not putting it on manual mode for this silly little program, as I play other games which needs thrustmapper in non-manual mode).

If the creator of that program reads this, please consider sharing the source code so you can 'patch' the exe, rather than having to change it each time on-the-fly (like those silly little game-trainers).

OR.

Oleg could just make it an option (default: off, so all the whiners are still happy).





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XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 01:45 AM
I'm not German but Dutch so I might be wrong on this but I think it's difficult to understand why these laws (still) exist in Germany if you're not German yourself. Those countries who fought Nazi Germany in the war can look back at it as a war in history where ultimately good triumphed over evil. Something to be proud of.
This war however, when the true horror of what happened was brought to light, left many Germans (remember, not all Germans are Nazis) with a great psychological trauma (and I don't mean any disrespect to those who suffered from German oppression). This meant that after the war those laws regarding Nazi symbology where put into effect for obvious reasons (psychological and law wise). Make no mistake, the Germans are not trying to ignore what happened, they can't, this is a trauma that's passed on to next generations and they are just trying to deal with it. So even today these laws still serve a valid purpose.

Mispunt

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 03:28 PM
MZ6 wrote:
- I'm somewhat disturbed by the illegality of it in
- Germany. It almost seems like they're trying to
- erase history.

Im from Germany and, well to this point, ill only tell you that we've got 60 sites in our history schoolbook about the third Reich and nazism, and 10 more in our religion schoolbook. Only 2 sites in the historybook are about the military events of the second worldwar. So i think we are probably some of the most educated pupils of any country about this chapter of history.
So every German, who went to school, knows what was going on these dark times of our history.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 03:55 PM
having a swasstika or not doesnt bother me
something ironic tho is the lies they said, germans surpior, etc limit gene pool in various ways. cos some germans went to south america and setup new german or sumin, only the "best/pure germans" could go. didnt mix with others, and now they like inbreads..
read that in bizare /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 04:38 PM
I wrote
-- I'm somewhat disturbed by the illegality of it in
-- Germany. It almost seems like they're trying to
-- erase history.

The reponse from Germans in this forum seem to prove this isn't the case, thankfully.

I'm Canadian and we have Germans who immigrated after the war. It seems that their children are not as enlightened as those who were born and live in Germany. A funny case; I return from a trip to Europe, I visited Germany, Poland but mostly Greece ( ahh, heavenly Greece ). After I returned. a, now former, friend whose parents came from Germany, asked me how the young Germans and young Poles got along. I said 'fine', as was the case. He replied, 'I can't believe it, after what the Poles did to the Germans in WWII'!! funny but true.

These kids should maybe go live in Germany for a while

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 04:54 PM
Wasn't the swastika just a peace symbol with a couple of end turned round the wrong way if my history serves me right.

I've got a Swastika flag which my grandad took from a German tank in the war, doesn't come out much.

We all love each other now so peace. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 04:55 PM
- I think they don't want people playing a game and
- choosing the side with the Swastika and then getting
- a bit too comfortable with the idea of flying for
- Nazi Germany.

Hypocritical BS. I feel sick when I see those red stars left and right. My grandparents lost - let's just say pretty much - when the communist hordes tried to attach Finland to their worker's paradise.

Yes nazis were bad guys but there were worse guys.


http://sivusto.servepics.com/~lahnat/werre2s.jpg

prkl

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 04:58 PM
Game game game game game game game game game



Thanks.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 05:09 PM
Svastika was just an innocent solar symbol until Nazism used it as badge and perverted it. So it was the Roman salute and the fascium symbol, all noble symbols of ancient Romans until Mussolini decided to appropiate them for his "renewed Empire".

Symbols have no strength nor danger at all, it's the use that people make of them.

I have the svastika enabled in FB, even if I hate the ideology that used it a logo, because it was the way it was. It's ridiculous and useless to ban the svastika, when you're supposed to fly in a German Bf 109, shooting down allied planes during WW2. Well, you can't see the svastika, it's not there, but EVERYBODY KNOWS IT WAS. So, what's the use? There's a svastika there even if you don't see it. It's only historically less accurate.

History can't be changed. By hiding your head in the sand or looking at any other side won't make the III Reich disappear. Not to know the past just leads to myths, and the last thing we all want is a mythical III Reich.

Reality is uncomfortable, but can't be changed, we can't rewind the tape and record over the facts. As Galileo is told to have said, it yet moves, even if you don't like it.

"Eppur si muove"

- Dux Corvan -



http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612322300

</span></blockquote></font></td></tr>

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 05:12 PM
Werre_ wrote:

- Yes nazis were bad guys but there were worse guys.

If your grandparents were Jewish you might feel different.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 05:56 PM
- Hypocritical BS. I feel sick when I see those red
- stars left and right. My grandparents lost - let's
- just say pretty much - when the communist hordes
- tried to attach Finland to their worker's paradise.
-
- Yes nazis were bad guys but there were worse guys.

Let me enlight you. Dont confuse red star and swastika. Red star is not a symbol of comunism. It's a army symbol. The same as americans have white star on blue background or Germans - black cross. German fighters still fly with black crosses on the wings and nobody prohibits this. The same as russian fighters fly with red stars, though Russia is no longer a comunist country. So, take my advise, dont tell anybody that he or she doesnt know history untill you will learn it yourself.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 06:02 PM
MZ6 wrote:
- If your grandparents were Jewish you might feel
- different.

There was antisemitism in EVERY nation of the era. It was just brought to an extreme in nazi germany. "Gentiles Only" was not an uncommon sight in the US of A in the 30's!

I was to the museum at Nuremberg just a month ago. There were LOTS of badges other than the David's star. Lots of other nationalities and beliefs suffered in the hands of the nazis. Please don't over-emphatize the jewish suffering again, it feels like they want a trademark and exclusive rights on the tragedy.

The Russians _were_ _worse_ than the nazis, directly and indirectly. Their example was directly the cause of the events in China and Cambodia, just to mention a few. And since the "1000 year Reich" lasted only 12 years or so, the comparison must be made with USSR of 1933-1945. Barbarism.


http://sivusto.servepics.com/~lahnat/werre2s.jpg

prkl

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 06:06 PM
maxim26 wrote:
- Let me enlight you. Dont confuse red star and
- swastika. Red star is not a symbol of comunism. It's
- a army symbol. The same as americans have white star
- on blue background or Germans - black cross.

The red star symbol is very much associated with bolshevism. Just as much as the balkenkreuz is associated with Luftwaffe and the american white star symbol with G.I. Joe and bubble gum.

http://sivusto.servepics.com/~lahnat/werre2s.jpg

prkl

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 06:19 PM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:

Like a femal politican said a year ago in Germany:
-
- "When the last LAN-party has been cancelled,
- the last Casino has been closed
- and the last computer confiscated,
- we'll realize that we still have
- to educate our children ourselves."
-
- Pitty, I don't remember the name.
-

Adolf Hitler Junior??

After that still ppl scared with swastika???

The guy who said that scare more!



HAUPTMANN LBR=Rommel 1º Technischer Offizier TOS I/JG52 - Erst Staffel - Nr. 7
http://www.luftwaffebrasil.hpg.com.br

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 06:23 PM
Tell me please, what measure do you use to figure out who was worse? Your bare statements do not prove anything. Killing maching, which was created by natzies was most horrable thing ever happend in human hystory.And by the way, Russia, as you state,never was a comunist country, and Soviet dictator Stalin was gergian by nationality, so by your theory we shoul blame Gergians for crimes of comunism?

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 07:10 PM
I´m not Werre, but let me comment.

maxim26 wrote:
- Tell me please, what measure do you use to figure
- out who was worse? Your bare statements do not prove
- anything. Killing maching, which was created by
- natzies was most horrable thing ever happend in
- human hystory.And by the way, Russia, as you
- state,never was a comunist country, and Soviet
- dictator Stalin was gergian by nationality, so by
- your theory we shoul blame Gergians for crimes of
- comunism?
-

First, Here was Communist Russia 1917-1922. Soviet Union was formed officially 1922, after Ukraine and other more or less already independent areas were added to Soviet Russia.

Then, Stalin killed in so called Stalin´s purges in middle 1930s almost same amount of people as Nazis in their camps. We do speak millions victims here.
From these people over 30.000 were Finns and Karelians, the name list of these people buried to Sandormohoi´s mass graves 1937-38 can be found from this list: http://www.onego.ru/win/pages/spiski/ (that is interesting list for Americans too, because there is a lot of people moved from USA to Worker´s Paradise...).
Then WW2 and especially what happened in Soviet occupied areas... that makes millions victims more.
Let´s not forget massive dispalcements of population inside Stalin´s paradise (for example Kazaks, Ukrainian and Mongolians moved to former Finnish areas) as well people´s evacuations from areas what Soviets occupied during WW2 (420.000 for Finland, tens thousands for Baltic States (most of them were sended to Siberia, some lucky survived to Sweden and USA) millions for East-Prussia aka Kaliningrad, Chechenya (so nothing new happening there) etc.
Did you know that famous mass graves in Katyn forest were originally reserved for Finnish officers, but because Red Army´s attack war failed, he executed there Poles instead?

Totally Stalin´s badly failed farming policy (means famine for millions especially in Ukraine) and his camps in Siberia and executions of "suspicious people" caused the death of even 20 million people in Soviet Russia/Union during 1920s-1950s. That´s quite much more than what Hitler succeeded to kill during his "career" as butcher.

Btw. Hitler was Austrian.


----------------------------------------
"Only Finland - superb, nay, sublime - in the jaws of peril -
Finland shows what free men can do."
Winston Churchill 1940
<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/~aval2/F19_Kunkkula.jpg </center>


Message Edited on 09/24/0308:31PM by Kunkkula

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 07:13 PM
KG26_Oranje wrote:
- Hi all,
-
- The low in germanie and many ahter country`s , is
- not only to forbid the swastika buht to protect the
- war victums to.
- The are many war victums still alive today so think
- about that!!!!!!!!
-
- Respect it and end this discusian.

I have a hard time believing that trying to pretend the nazi party never existed is in anyone's interest. It's simply intellectual cowardice.

Yes, the swastika has become synonymous with religious and racial intolerance and facism. However, hiding from the uglier parts of history isn't the way to fight them. Anyone who really is against such things should be happy that such things are out in the open. The nazi party is the poster child for why intolerance and nationalism are dangerous.

If you can't handle discussing this part of history, then how can you hope to defend against the more subtle instances of these problems?


<center>http://smack.telecom.ksu.edu/il2/images/trackwerks400.jpg (http://smack.telecom.ksu.edu/il2/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 07:26 PM
maxim26 wrote:
- Tell me please, what measure do you use to figure
- out who was worse? Your bare statements do not prove
- anything.

Calculate the amount of years of suffering the state caused.
Or calculate the amount of death it caused.
Or calculate the number of people it enslaved.

KO! Russians Win!

- And by the way, Russia, as you
- state,never was a comunist country

This is semantics. Nazi Germany was neither right-wing nor fascist - it was national socialistic (sp?) and NSDAP in my opinion was more bent towards nationalistic socialism - VERY MUCH like the USSR. Both were sovinistic, nationalistic dictatorships bent towards socialism, both ruled using terror as their main tool. Germany dreamed of a pan-european empire with Germany leading it (not much unlike the situation today), USSR dreamed of world domination.

Italy, on the other hand, was clearly nationalistic right-wing (and the only facist state, by definition).

- Soviet dictator Stalin was gergian by nationality, so by
- your theory we shoul blame Gergians for crimes of
- comunism?

By your logic we should nuke Wien and Innsbruck for the crimes of Hitler.


http://sivusto.servepics.com/~lahnat/werre2s.jpg

prkl

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 07:36 PM
I look at it like this....

Rember when the Solders blew up the Giant Golden Swastika that was on the top of Hittlers Complex (where he gave his speaches)


Well they Didnt blow it up for Fun they were Dead seriouse and they were trying to make a point!!!

I will Honor there Decision & I will not Honor the Swastika by flying it On any AC I fly no matter how Historical it is To me its like Slaping all thoes who died to keep Freadom Alive right in the Face!!!

I wont be Apart of it no matter how Harmless or Historicaly accurate you might think it is!!!

Thats just me tho.

Just as I wont hang a Flag in my frontyard with a swastika on it.. to me its the same thing.

<center><font size="7" color="red">Arcade Mode Inabled[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 07:43 PM
I simply want the planes to look historically accurate...so I've downloaded new skins for virtually every plane from Il2Skins.

In reading a great book called 'Barbarossa' I found it fascinating that both German and Russian units included a "political officer" to verify that the military decisions and actions taken were in line with "party objectives." Totalitarian regimes have as much to fear with uprisings from within as from outside attack. In many instances Russian citizens were said to see the German army as liberators from Stalin. That is of course, until the Nazi party Gauletiers persecuted them with similar cruelty as their own leaders. This encouraged the home guard guerilla activities that constantly plagued the German rear areas. It's interesting also that in the last German Eastern front offensive Guderian bitterly fought with Hitler to allow him control of the action, but since Hitler didn't trust the Army heirarchy he appointed a former pig farmer named Himmler to run the show...his qualifications? Loyalty to the party.

Dennis

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 07:54 PM
warlock03 wrote:
- I found it fascinating that both German and Russian
- units included a "political officer" to verify that
- the military decisions and actions taken were in line
- with "party objectives."

Early in the war the german despised this practise. Late in the war they became a mirror image of their main adversary.

As for Himmler, architecht of the Holocaust: he was ready to do anything for the Party, but battle-ready?... no.
He liked the uniforms and the power, but lacked basic knowledge the OKW had.

http://sivusto.servepics.com/~lahnat/werre2s.jpg

prkl

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 08:00 PM
Locust_161st wrote:
- I look at it like this....
-
- Rember when the Solders blew up the Giant Golden
- Swastika that was on the top of Hittlers Complex
- (where he gave his speaches)

Yeah, that's making a statement. There's a difference between a symbolic act and government sponsored censorship.

- Well they Didnt blow it up for Fun they were Dead
- seriouse and they were trying to make a point!!!
-
- I will Honor there Decision & I will not Honor the
- Swastika by flying it On any AC I fly no matter how
- Historical it is To me its like Slaping all thoes
- who died to keep Freadom Alive right in the Face!!!

And do you think a popular ideal of those freedom fighters was censorship and hiding from the uglier parts of history?

- I wont be Apart of it no matter how Harmless or
- Historicaly accurate you might think it is!!!
-
- Thats just me tho.
-
- Just as I wont hang a Flag in my frontyard with a
- swastika on it.. to me its the same thing.

Flying a swastika in your yard is quite a bit difference than acknowledging that WW2 involved a fight against the Nazis who had dangerous ideology which were most often associated with the swastika.

<center>http://smack.telecom.ksu.edu/il2/images/trackwerks400.jpg (http://smack.telecom.ksu.edu/il2/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 08:09 PM
I can`t believe some of what I am hearing. Some of you guys are a good advert for banning any WWII game where you can play for the Axis Powers. And I don`t wish that.


Please come and close this Mr. Moderator!





"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 08:25 PM
theres not much wrong with comunism, its ppl that screw it up /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
its people who did these crimes, not a way to live etc

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 08:25 PM
I believe although historical they were left out because as it's already been said you can't sell games in Germany if they contain swastika's or any type of Nazi paraphenalia.

True about the red star of Russia though. Stalin killed more Russians than Hitler could have ever dreamed of doing. However the Russians never attempted to commit genocide which is an atrocity. It's killing people based on their religion, color, or ethnicity. Thats what made the Nazi's so bad.

Although the sad truth is the Nazi's advanced medical technology 50 years during WWII. Mainly through their use of cruel, and downright strange experiments on humans.
They also advanced technology a long ways. Although neither of those was their plan just what came of it all. So along with a great evil came a great good to humanity.

I don't think personnaly the Swastika should be hidden. It's a symbol, and a piece of history. Although if I met one I'd kick a Nazi's a**.

I also don't consider it very important whether the game has them or not. It doesn't make it any more real for my to have a Swastika painted on my 109's tail.

To me it sort of follows suit with the confederate flag. Not that they even remotely have any similarities, but rather some people are simply offended by seeing either being flown or in any respresentation.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 08:31 PM
What frequently scares me the most is that people don't actually read other people's posts and understand them. Or read the entire thread. They just jump in and start to rant.

It's a real shame a lot of this flaming just comes about due to the language barriers.

Also I remember back in University when some Americans I knew couldn't believe how much our fellow European students could fight with each other when it came to national identities.

"I hate the French, I hate the Turks, I hate the English, I hate the Germans, etc. etc." He said he wasn't suprised that the Europeans were at war with each other so often in the last few centuries.





Message Edited on 09/24/0308:33PM by Xnomad

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 08:33 PM
Haven't this been discussed before? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Remember to play nice.


http://members.chello.se/ven/camera.gif


http://members.chello.se/ven/milton.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 08:34 PM
p1ngu666 wrote:
- theres not much wrong with comunism, its ppl that
- screw it up

The Classic.

Sigh, this thread is starting to get political.

Whenever someone says that bolshevism/communism/socialism is bad, someone responds "well China is really not communist, and CCCP never was communist. They were false implementations of a great idea." Well tell you what smartasses, what if someone said that national socialism was really a great movement, it just was implemented wrong? You'd immediately get word-diarrhea and get that someone banned.

Communism is inherently evil. It's in human nature to be selfish to a degree (understandable, since re-incarnation is not a proven fact) and communism is against this most basic of instincts. We will work like crazy for our OWN good, and not so much for some common good.

Be free to disagree, but what I said was the fact. Be sure.

http://sivusto.servepics.com/~lahnat/werre2s.jpg

prkl

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 08:36 PM
Hopperfly22 wrote:
- I believe although historical they were left out
- because as it's already been said you can't sell
- games in Germany if they contain swastika's or any
- type of Nazi paraphenalia.

Oh no doubt. I have no problem with Ubisoft's decision. It's just good business sense on their part, and it'd be a crime for a whole country to miss out on this excellent game.

I'm just suprised anyone would defend government sponsored censorship in a case like this where the ethical issues are about as black and white as they get in reality.


<center>http://smack.telecom.ksu.edu/il2/images/trackwerks400.jpg (http://smack.telecom.ksu.edu/il2/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 08:41 PM
Xnomad wrote:
- Also I remember back in University when some
- Americans I knew couldn't believe how much our
- fellow European students could fight with each other
- when it came to national identities.

Of course an american cannot understand it. Our history goes WAY beyond yours, so nyah.

My personal contact with other European nations is limited, and somewhat biased. I've been on the net since 1992 and back then AOLer was a swearword, and everyone from Poland and Italy was categorically stamped an idiot. Now I've been to Poland, and over half the other European nations, and my prejudices have lessened.

Diversity is strength. Go EU. A necessary evil.


http://sivusto.servepics.com/~lahnat/werre2s.jpg

prkl

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 08:46 PM
Werre_ wrote:
- Of course an american cannot understand it. Our
- history goes WAY beyond yours, so nyah.

Ouch. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif You'll surely catch something with that bait.


- My personal contact with other European nations is
- limited, and somewhat biased. I've been on the net
- since 1992 and back then AOLer was a swearword, and
- everyone from Poland and Italy was categorically
- stamped an idiot. Now I've been to Poland, and over
- half the other European nations, and my prejudices
- have lessened.

Been to Finland many times and my prejudisms seems pretty accurate. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


- Diversity is strength. Go EU. A necessary evil.

EU is an elite project. All about money.

http://members.chello.se/ven/milton.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 12:01 AM
UNBELIVABLE!!!

<center><font size="7" color="red">Arcade Mode Inabled[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 12:19 AM
- EU is an elite project. All about money.

At least in the EU every citizen doesn't have over 23.000$ debt on them. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 12:34 AM
Werre_ wrote:
- As for Himmler, architecht of the Holocaust: he was
- ready to do anything for the Party, but
- battle-ready?... no.
- He liked the uniforms and the power, but lacked
- basic knowledge the OKW had.

Yup, makes about as much sense as electing an actor president (or governer of California /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Dennis

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 12:59 AM
Firstly lets remember this is just a game,albeit a bloody good one!

Second,I understand the thinking of the makers when they did not attach the Swastika to the German kites.Its easy to criticise its omission if your country never came under the Nazi's murderous oppression,so try and keep that in mind when you bring up this subject.

Thirdly,the Swastika enabler program enables the player to bring in that final marking to fulfil any yearning for historical realism.Very easy to use,first class work.

Fourthly,this is just a game.I know that this is the same as the first point,but its such a good point I felt it worth repeating.

Bo_Nidle

Get my skins at: www.mudmovers.com (http://www.mudmovers.com) and www.il2skins.com (http://www.il2skins.com)

http://www.orangeneko.com/rik/thumbs/flashbn.jpg

"You've got to treat your kite like you treat your woman! Get inside her 10 times a day and take her to heaven and back!"Lord Flashheart RFC 1917.

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 01:10 AM
I have the Swastika enabled, strangly I notice it's presence less the I would notice the anachronistic space if I don't enable it.

The history is what it's all about for me.

My godparents are jewish, I have jewish cousins, I can't even presume to know what their inner feelings are about the holocaust or any other anti jewish persecution, I suppose it can't be seperated entirely from the feeling of rejection engendered by persecution from medieval England through Europe steadily eastwards until the post war period.

I understand their revulsion for the Nazis, but in their case it was Russian orchestrated purges that drove them to England.

The Swastika was just another obscure but widely used symbol until the Nazis pickid it up, but the persecution of jews and the dehumanizing of the slavs were already well advanced before Hitler.

The Kaiser himself said that slavs were not fit to govern themselves, he meant of course that Germans governed and slavs slaved. So where was the swastika when he said that, he did'nt need a swastika to make him an arrogant racist did he?

After the war when decent human beings were shell shocked by the horror of the holocaust, Stalin embarked on a rerun of the anti jewish pogroms of late czarist times, he did'nt need a swastika to get his troops and political activists to rally round either did he?

The past happened and removing things from images representing the past is helpful to nobody, except maybe the Nazis themselves.

No gripe with Ubi of course, they don't make ignorant Euro Laws.