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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 03:49 PM
What about Israel/Palestine map? We will get most of airplanes needed. We just need S-199 (Czech version of Me-109) here can be used current model g-14 already porked but it fits to S-199 only remove 30 mil cannon or some one will have time and model it that shloud be best.The rest: B-17 is coming some Italian planes used by Egyptians and spitfire -IX also. C-47 already have one so we need only map.
S!



Message Edited on 10/22/0302:52PM by CSL_Jp-

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 03:49 PM
What about Israel/Palestine map? We will get most of airplanes needed. We just need S-199 (Czech version of Me-109) here can be used current model g-14 already porked but it fits to S-199 only remove 30 mil cannon or some one will have time and model it that shloud be best.The rest: B-17 is coming some Italian planes used by Egyptians and spitfire -IX also. C-47 already have one so we need only map.
S!



Message Edited on 10/22/0302:52PM by CSL_Jp-

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 04:08 PM
Israel? In WWII!? Am I missing something here?

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 04:13 PM
As soonas Israel was born (when British people left that colony), it was attacked by Arabian forces.
Planes of that era were Spit, Me109, B17 etc...



Message Edited on 10/22/0303:14PM by JaboTex

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 04:14 PM
1948 - War of independence. Used only piston aircrafts from WWII.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 04:27 PM
that wouldnt even fit 1946 scenario, so its doubtful

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 05:05 PM
Very good idea.
Spacialy I'd like to see how palestinians will fly on camels.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 05:07 PM
JaboTex instead of spouting ignorant nonsense, maybe you should research the FACTS of the so-called birth of "Israel".



Message Edited on 10/22/0305:08PM by JG77BlackWulf_2

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 05:07 PM
What about a Tibet and a Cameroon Map?

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 05:09 PM
That's true: What's the use of those Israel aircraft if we don't have the ones the arabic countries used? And, even so, if there was an 'unbalanced' air war, it was this one. With US and UK support, IAF simply had no rival there.

- Dux Corvan -



Message Edited on 10/24/0308:32PM by Tully__

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 06:18 PM
Guys dont hijack this thread /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif .
REAF (Royal egiptian Aair Force) Had mainly Spitfires -IX and Fiat-G55 Also RAF has been present using Temperst F.6 and Spitfires Fr.18 so no jets only WWII fighters.


-

Message Edited on 10/22/0305:23PM by CSL_Jp-

ZG77_Nagual
10-22-2003, 06:30 PM
Israelis flew 109s

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 06:50 PM
A rather original idea ! And, a very interesting scenario, Spits fighting together with Messers vs. other Spits and so on... S-199 wouldn`t be that easy to do, it was very different plane. However, the largest obstacle is creating the map itself - think about it, it`s a VERY different culture than Europe ! Different house types etc. All would need to be modelled. Plus, we have no desert terrain tiles...

Again, a very good idea IMHO, but hard to realize.



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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 07:01 PM
the turkish air force had P-47s, FW-190s, Spitfires, Blenheims, P.24s, Hurricanes... can you imagine this?

but luckily turkey was neutral during ww2

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 07:19 PM
If not for Fb at least for future BoB.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 07:28 PM
-- What about Israel/Palestine map?


They will say *anything* to get some kind of Med sim. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 07:49 PM
I think that 1948-Israeli/Arabs conflict it's a very interesting add on for a future Med scenario.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 08:07 PM
You have it all wrong:

Israel flew Avia S.199's which were a licensed reproduction of 109's. They were a bit different. The Egyptians were flying Spitfires. Most of the Arabian Armies did not have air forces. By the end of the 1948 war, Israel had a number of planes. BTW, the first thing that was done by an IAF plane, before the Israel Air Force even existed, was an L-5 Sentinel that attacked enemy troops with grenades!

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 08:53 PM
MEHT wrote:
- Very good idea.
- Spacialy I'd like to see how palestinians will fly
- on camels.
-
-

Rapid-fire slingshots!
AAA consists of launching a human with a bomb straped to his chest from a large circus canon!

Sorry, I just get so tired of hearing of the constant fighting in golan heights... I just dont want to think about simulating any more bloodshed over there, i'd rather be called a damned racist or bigot or whatever and laugh at the situation.

Call me whatever, I just don't want to think about that mess without some sort of joke involved, even if is in bad taste.

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 09:10 PM
I think this kind of conflict should not be used for the game, because its after the second world war.

But a theatre in Africa would be interresting with the battle between the german Africa corps and the RAF. This would be a similar scenario but more Il2 related

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 09:34 PM
good idea /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
yes give us the med!
i dunno about it tho, with the current policitcal situation there :\
i dunno if this would effect this idea :\

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 09:59 PM
ww2 sim is one conflict that we dont have to inlvove ourselves as acountry that was only formed in 1948.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 11:12 PM
hmmmmm. naaaah. I'd much rather have a decent WW2 med. campaign.

You'll be telling me that Israel should be in the Eurovision Song Contest next.

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 12:10 AM
What's intersting is that anyone who flew Air Arab in that game would probably be called an anti-semite, but not if they fly 109s for the Germans.

I love politics. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 01:28 AM
I would love to play that. It would be nice to play a scenario that is more relevant to modern events.

Not to mention the coolness factor. I mean, Israelis flying 109s; what could be more cool?

I don't much care for flying as a German or, god forbid, a Russian, but Israeli would be a lot of fun. The Counterstrike terrorist types get to be the Spitfire noobs.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 07:12 AM
As tempting as this thread is......i aint touching it with a 10 foot poll.
I'd be banned for sure /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 07:40 AM
Why? The idea of a middle east flight sim is just as valid as any other theatre. Even more so considering the conflict is both historical and contemporary.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 11:36 PM
Politics os a malleable subject.

Would they model the Wall in all its multi-textured irony?

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 11:54 PM
It's quite possible that an official game with an Israel\Arab scenario that allowed a player to defeat the Israelis would be banned here in Canada as "hate speech".

And I am 100% serious. Here in Canada you can say anything about anthing that happened at any time. You can question or deny any historical event in all of history, but if you deny the Holocaust (which I do not), you will be charged under Federal hate crime legislation which was enacted pretty much solely for this one event.

I really don't know if we could buy an add-on that had this scenario since it allows the player to "deny" the birth of Israel. Seriously.



"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 12:52 AM
no offence but I find this a very stupid idea... I'd rather Middle East to finaly get some peace instead of simulating that unjust and still ongoing war /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 07:26 AM
Who cares about politics /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif . What we need is S-199 crappy plane but true beauty.
Brief history of service in IAF and some cool pictures:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2848/fighter1.htm

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 07:35 AM
AVIA S199 are not a bit different. They are really different. Imagine Bf109G with the nose of FW109D.

Performance of these 109 was really worse than last original 109s.


Boosher-PBNA wrote:
- You have it all wrong:
-
- Israel flew Avia S.199's which were a licensed
- reproduction of 109's. They were a bit different.
- The Egyptians were flying Spitfires. Most of the
- Arabian Armies did not have air forces. By the end
- of the 1948 war, Israel had a number of planes. BTW,
- the first thing that was done by an IAF plane,
- before the Israel Air Force even existed, was an L-5
- Sentinel that attacked enemy troops with grenades!
-
- Boosher-PBNA
-----------------
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- Boosher-ProudBirds-VFW
<img
- src="http://www.uploadit.org/files/220903-Boosher%
- 20Sig.jpg">
-



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:45 PM
Mr. Maddox,

Pleasure to see your name here sir. And thank you for this great sim. We're all enjoying it very much.

All the best.
Balshoya spaciba.



"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:22 PM
This was a bonafide historical conflict and would be fun as an add-on MAP for the Med sim (whenever it comes out)...planes are already here (or soon to be...hehe..Spit)

check back in 2005 late...

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:46 PM
LOL IAF flying Messerschmitt's LOL


okokokok .... with the situation in palestine in mind ... i am not touching this topic with a 6-foot pole

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 05:23 PM
Camels - hmmmm, I'd love to fly Camels.

WWI fighting in the same region, though I think they had more Neuports and Pups than Camels.

(some people will go for anything to get a biplane into the sim)

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:57 PM
S 199 had the slow reving Jumo 211 bomber engine.( The factory ran out of DB's ) and Israel bought it because no other nation would sell them planes (mustangs and spits were gotten later rather underhanded, or smuggled).

The S199 was also called "Mezek" meaning Mule, and was very tough to handle. All the bad caracteristics of the 109 and more. But at least it was available at the time and fulfilled it's role (Just like the P40 in WW2).

As for the political conotatiots. I realy cannot see how this could be an issue. If you argue along those lines then IL2 should also not exist.

I would like such a campaign/add on. But I think all such things should come after BOB, when the new code of IL2 is sorted and modular, and these things can be done with ease.The restraints of the current code makes adding any planes very difficult, as you all know. I also hope the Spanish guys will be patient untill that time, when that campaign can be done justice.

S!
Cirx

http://www.triplane.net/remlink/misfits_cirx.JPG

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 12:03 AM
AirBot wrote:
- Israel? In WWII!? Am I missing something here?

Moshe Dayan (spelling?) famously fought for the
British in the Western Desert after previously
being incarcerated by the British. I am not sure
if this is where he lost an eye.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 03:28 AM
I find the real problem with these forums is that people hold back on their true feelings and never express themselves openly.

Gosh darn it, if someone has a problem with another poster, they should have the decency to come right out and say it.

To heck with subtlety!




"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 04:28 AM
ok im new here, so hello to all.

this is adressed to the brilliant piolet who said that the palastinians (which i doubt had an airforce at all) would be deemed anti-semetic for flying against israel. ARABS ARE SEMETIC! ITS A RACE NOT A RELIGON! I really had to get that off my chest.

ok and im not sure on the history, but this would seem like a very thin package to make a mod or whatever. Maybe a map or two, but the Arab airforce pretty much sucked a$$. It would be interesting to see an israelie me 109, oh the irony. ahem wall ahem

im not trying to "dis" anyone just trying to rationalize this idea.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 04:58 AM
Here is a little read the Avia S 199...


http://204.50.25.179/features00/s199ic_1.htm

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 05:15 AM
Well. The project has these virtues. There were some Russian Jews in Israel at that time, although I don't know if any flew in 1948. It uses aircraft largely either in the game or in progress. They're gonna have to do a Med map eventually. And it is indeed a forgotten battle.

Ubi is gonna have to insist that the project not be controversial, although a strictly factual account might be controversial in its own right.

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1951.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 10:27 AM
CENSORED !!!!!!



Message Edited on 11/04/0303:05AM by johann_thor

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 11:18 AM
U can always edit your post.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 03:17 PM
Shafaluaghagus,

(I hope I spelled that right.)

That was me who said that. You are of course right about the Semitic races. I wrote expediently and incorrectly. The fault is mine.

However, using the modern day conventional sense of that hijacked term, I think I was right in what I said. Yes the politics are skewed, but I think it is still more politically correct to fly for the Nazis and kill Americans or British than to fly for the Aabs and kill Israelis. In one case you're being "historic", in the other you're merely "anti-semitic". (Pardon me.)

Funny world.



"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 05:59 PM
Problem with Izrael and Middle East is that... it isn't really all history... it is still happening /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif which is why I said this was a very stupid idea... and I still think it's a very stupid idea /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 12:15 AM
So how many sorties did they fly with half a dozen fighters? Make for an awful short career.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 06:39 AM
ok, sorry if i sounded rash before. But not doing this campaign because it is politicly not correct is rubbish. And somehow nazies shooting down yanks and brits is ok, but if an isralie plane is in the crosshairs it is wrong, right? give me a break buddy. I dont even know if they even faught each others in the sky (arab coalition and isralie air force) but if it did happen there should be no moral alert! It is war, if you look at it that way then no war games should be made! If you have some sentamental feeling with one side or the other is one thing, but this is a game! As an american, or britt you shouldent get upset if your p-47 is going down in flames by the hands of a german piolet right? I just dont think there is enough substance in the air battles of the war of 1946 or 1948?
thats all. nothing personal again.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 01:57 PM
BfHeFwMe wrote:
- So how many sorties did they fly with half a dozen
- fighters? Make for an awful short career.
-
-


The number of sorties was not important at that time for Israelis. What really mattered was that their Arab enemies saw the REAL Israeli Air Force, not just some civilian modified aircraft.

It is commonly believed in Israel, that S-199s are to be credited for disrupting Egyptian attack on Tel Aviv. Avias bombed and strafed Egyptian column only 20 miles from Tel Aviv. Shocked Egyptians were afterwards counter-attacked by Israelis and were forced to retreat.

Several days after this entrée, Avias also scored first aerial victories of IAF when Modi Alon shot down 2 modified C-47s that were bombing Tel Aviv. This bombing was under way since the outbreak of the conflict, causing great number of civil casulties. This fighter mission efectively stopped it...

That is why Israeli may have not liked the flying charakteristics of Avias, but hold them in high esteem nonetheless.


And by the way, the Czech, by that time already a communist country, sold Spits IXE to Israel shortly after. A communist country sold ex-british and ex-german equipment to the Jews with the permission of Stalin (who shortly after started supporting Arabs) who just escaped Nazi's concentration camps. Very complicated times ...


Message Edited on 10/26/0301:06PM by drapis

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 03:39 PM
Shafaluaghagus,

I'm not saying I think it's wrong to sim a situation where you can shoot down Israelis. I'm saying there are others who would say that. And those others are the same who stay quiet while American and British and so on are virtually shot down.

Can you imagine someone modding a Palestinian plane that would then drop bombs on Tel Aviv? Again, I personally don't have a problem with it (simulationaly speaking), I'm saying that here in Canada the lobby groups would be screaming bloody murder and that sort of sim might be banned as "hate mongering".

Not a viewpoint - an observation.



"Official Lancaster Whiner"



Message Edited on 10/26/0302:40PM by Beirut

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 12:43 AM
yeah ok i see what you are saying. That rule in canada is ridiculous. and to drapis very imformative stuff!

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 10:18 AM
No one else want S-199 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif ???

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 11:18 AM
Shafaluaghagus wrote:
- ok im new here, so hello to all.
-
- this is adressed to the brilliant piolet who said
- that the palastinians (which i doubt had an airforce
- at all) would be deemed anti-semetic for flying
- against israel. ARABS ARE SEMETIC! ITS A RACE NOT
- A RELIGON! I really had to get that off my chest.
-


Hi there & welcome to the forum & FB.

I must disagree with you on this - there is only one human race that includes all ethnic/national groups. We all share the same genetic code that differs so little from one group to another that scientists cannot divide us into races (like with dogs or horses for example). However I agree with you that one cannot be refered to as anti-semetic if one take side in this unfortunate ongoing conflict as both groups belong to the semitic people.

Having said that - I still think it could be interesting as a little side-story to a 'Forgotten Med Battle'.

Btw check this out: http://www.deltaweb.co.uk/spitfire/

& click on 'Post War Years'



S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



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XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 11:55 AM
"I must disagree with you on this - there is only one human race that includes all ethnic/national groups."

At school I learnt that the race is a sub-group of the species.

So, there's a human species, but not a human race, if you stay on the biological point of view. If you're talking of ethnic or national groups, you're on a sociologic, a political or an ethnological point of view. Nothing to do with terms like "species" or "races" which are terms concerning biology.

To avoid trouble with politically correct blindness, just take an example from the animal world, it's more simple and obvious: "dog" is a species, "chiuhaha" or "doberman" are races.

Cheers,

P.S: Btw, such discussions have nothing to do with FB!

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 01:48 PM
CHDT wrote:
-
- P.S: Btw, such discussions have nothing to do with
- FB!
-

Right, let's leave it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif - but still a Med would be popular in my home!


S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

Message Edited on 10/29/0312:50PM by M0NS

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 04:25 PM
AaronGT wrote:
-
- AirBot wrote:
-- Israel? In WWII!? Am I missing something here?
-
- Moshe Dayan (spelling?) famously fought for the
- British in the Western Desert after previously
- being incarcerated by the British. I am not sure
- if this is where he lost an eye.
-

Point taken. I meant Israel as a state, not as a geographical location.

It's nice to see Oleg still has time to grace us with his presence. Thank you Oleg for responding!

Like Mr. Maddox mentioned above, the aircraft used in the independence war weren't quite the same aircraft that fought in WWII. The S199 has already been mentioned and it has already been explained that it is not the same aircraft as a 109. One other example is the Spitfire: Israel's first Spit was assembled from various spare parts abandoned by the British, and thus was not of any specific factory model. The difficulties Israel had with obtaining aircraft in these years mean that many of the planes are likely to suffer from this syndrome: either being battle-damaged (recovered enemy planes), non-standard models, smuggled planes with possibly degraded performance etc...
Plus, the fact that this conflict is still ongoing means simulating it would be very controversial.

I don't think this is worth doing at the moment. Perhaps when the conflict dies down a bit (hopefully soon)...

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

The_Blue_Devil
10-30-2003, 05:46 PM
CSL_Jp- wrote:
- What about Israel/Palestine map? We will get most of
- airplanes needed. We just need S-199 (Czech version
- of Me-109) here can be used current model g-14
- already porked but it fits to S-199 only remove 30
- mil cannon or some one will have time and model it
- that shloud be best.The rest: B-17 is coming some
- Italian planes used by Egyptians and spitfire -IX
- also. C-47 already have one so we need only map.
- S!
-
-
-
- Message Edited on 10/22/03 02:52PM by CSL_Jp-

Waste of a Map IMHO, Israel was created later.

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XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 06:15 PM
Well spitfires LF.Mk.IXE certainly were from last batches of war production. They were bought by Czech gov. and later on sold to Israel, 48 or such number. Claimed most air victories, in war of independence and shortly after before first jets arrived. For spitfires Mk? made from crashed aircraft´s and spareparts, just two of them were made.

Israel Air Force Victories
Date Pilot Aircraft Kill Country Notes

03-Jun-48 Modi Allon (Klivanski) Avia S 199 C-47 Egypt
03-Jun-48 Modi Allon (Klivanski) Avia S 199 C-47 Egypt
08-Jun-48 Gideon Lichtaman Avia S 199 Spitfire Egypt
10-Jul-48 Morris Mann Avia S 199 AT-6 Syria
18-Jul-48 Modi Allon (Klivanski) Avia S 199 Spitfire Egypt 'Afifi al Janzuri
23-Sep-48 Gideon Lichtaman Avia S 199 Rapide Jordan Civil Airliner
16-Oct-48 Rudi Carmi (Augarten) Avia S 199 Spitfire Egypt
19-Oct-48 Len Fitchett Beaufighter Fury Egypt Abu Zaid - Flew into the sea
21-Oct-48 Rudi Augarten (Carmi) Spitfire IX Spitfire Egypt
21-Oct-48 John Doyle Spitfire IX Spitfire Egypt Mukhtar Mahmud Sa'id
04-Nov-48 Boris Senior Spitfire IX C-47 Egypt Shared Claim - Amr Shakib
04-Nov-48 Rudi Augarten (Carmi) P-51D Shared Claim - Amr Shakib
17-Nov-48 Rudi Augarten (Carmi) Spitfire IX Spitfire Egypt Possible
20-Nov-48 Wayne Peak P-51D Mosquito Britain Eric Reynolds/Angus Love
22-Dec-48 Rudi Augarten (Carmi) Spitfire IX MC.205V Egypt Shalabi al Hinnawi
28-Dec-48 John Doyle Spitfire IX MC.205V Egypt Abd al Fatah Sa'id
28-Dec-48 Gordon Levett Spitfire IX MC.205V Egypt
28-Dec-48 Gordon Levett Spitfire IX Spitfire Egypt Possible
30-Dec-48 John Doyle Spitfire IX MC.205V Egypt Mustafa Kamal Abd al Wahab
30-Dec-48 John McElroy Spitfire IX MC.205V Egypt Khalif al Arusi
31-Dec-48 Denny Wilson Spitfire IX MC.205V Egypt
31-Dec-48 Denny Wilson Spitfire IX Spitfire Egypt
05-Jan-49 Simon Feldman Spitfire IX MC.205V Egypt
05-Jan-49 Boris Senior P-51D MC.205V Egypt Possible
07-Jan-49 Chalmers Goodlin Spitfire IX Spitfire Britain Geoff Cooper
07-Jan-49 John McElroy Spitfire IX Spitfire Britain Ron Sayers
07-Jan-49 John McElroy Spitfire IX Spitfire Britain Tim McElhaw
07-Jan-49 John Doyle P-51D MC.205V Egypt
07-Jan-49 Boris Senior P-51D MC.205V Egypt Possible
07-Jan-49 William Schroeder Spitfire IX Tempest Britain David Tattersfield

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 07:09 PM
Well... to go back to the subject...

If anyone want to do an Israel map... I can provide an accurate Terrain Mesh (and I have the same on Syria, Jordan Lebanon and Sinai).
if someone wants to talk about... please drop a PM


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?


Message Edited on 10/30/0307:28PM by pegase_rama