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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 12:43 PM
Since the B17 is due with us, may I ask that larger formations are able to fly in an authentic box formation?

Was that formation used for lower level bombing ops during prior to Normandy landing and subsequent operations against German troop/armour concentrations? (i know RAF was involved in that, but we don't yet have the Lanc.).

I'm not a programmer so have no idea how much work that would entail, it's just a polite request and something that would make a happy man vey old.

I think it would add a nice twist and really get (some of) us to think about tactics for attacking those birds.


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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 12:43 PM
Since the B17 is due with us, may I ask that larger formations are able to fly in an authentic box formation?

Was that formation used for lower level bombing ops during prior to Normandy landing and subsequent operations against German troop/armour concentrations? (i know RAF was involved in that, but we don't yet have the Lanc.).

I'm not a programmer so have no idea how much work that would entail, it's just a polite request and something that would make a happy man vey old.

I think it would add a nice twist and really get (some of) us to think about tactics for attacking those birds.


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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 01:25 PM
Let's also hope that the bombers don't pull up when they are hit! That would be fatal to B-17 formations, falling apart like that, it also didn't happen in real life, they just stayed there, in formation, and took it!

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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 01:40 PM
yep that too!



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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 02:18 PM
The number of a/c allowed per 'flight' will have to increased to 6 to have an "authentic" USAAF squadron formation. USAAF formations were very disiplined, so no more individual a/c leaving formation for no good reason(ie. battle damage).


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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 03:17 PM
interesting Milo Morai.

So that means the answer would probably be no, at least until they can increase number of aircraft per flight and change AI specific to one type of plane.

I'll stop holding my breath.

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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 08:23 PM
need a awsome damage model too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 08:26 PM
I agree that the standard bomber AI could be modelled something more realistic but, the damage modelling will be very hard to change I think and I don't think it is really needed. FB currently has the best DM I think.


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XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 12:00 AM
DM is basically very good;niggles plabe to plane but really fine overall.

But if MiloMorai is right then we can't do box formations.

Shame.


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XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 02:33 PM
Why, I sure can http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It does not depend on 6 planes in a group. In fact,box formation is something that was changing over war years, but neither '43 nor '44 variant requires 6 planes in a group.

But building it manually of 4 and 3 plane groups may be a serious task.

Anyway, I hope in not too distant future you'll see screenshots http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 03:47 PM
Actually Starshoy, an American "bomber box" was quite larger than the single squadron of 6 a/c. It consisted of the 3 squadrons that made up the Bomber Group.

Squadron = 6 a/c
Group = 18 a/c


The only thing that change was the formation configuration > postion of the a/c.


Starshoy wrote:
- Why, I sure can /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- It does not depend on 6 planes in a group. In
- fact,box formation is something that was changing
- over war years, but neither '43 nor '44 variant
- requires 6 planes in a group.
-
- But building it manually of 4 and 3 plane groups may
- be a serious task.
-
-

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XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 04:27 PM
From my meager knowledge, I tend to agree more with Starshoy. The 'combat formations' of B-17's were constantly evolving. Though 'wings' (for lack of a better term) of B-17's came in 6 aircraft groups, it appears these 'wings' were actually formed from 2 'flights' of 3 aircraft. Squadrons apparently consisted of 1-2 'wings', and the squadrons were formed into 'groups', which were in turn strung together to form the 'bomber stream'. Note the 'tail end charlie' aircraft (placed at different locations within a squadron throughout the war) to fill in the gaps of the bomber group.

http://www.303rdbga.com/formation.html

http://www.b17bomber.de/english/formation.htm

http://www.reese-457th.org/457.html

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 04:55 PM
Wing is the wrong word./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The USAAF Eigth AF consisted of 3 heavy bomber Wings (later Division), the 1BW(triangle), 2BW(circle) and 4BW(square). The Wing was made up of 'x' number of BGs. The BG was usually made up of 3 BSs. The BS was made up of 'y' number of section/flights of 3 a/c.


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XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 05:16 PM
bet it was might impressive to see 100s, maybe 1000s of aircraft /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 06:28 PM
Good pictures /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 07:11 PM
Salute Lignite

18 plane Groups were the smallest formations used from 1943 forwards.

In fact, the standard formation was not a series of Groups strung out individually, but in fact 3 Groups operating together, ie. 54 planes, followed by another 3 Groups, followed by another 3 etc. etc.

These combined formations of 3 Groups were 'stacked', with one Group high, the next lower slightly forward, and the third lower again, but occupying the same vertical column as the high group.

This formation gave maximum coverage against attacking fighters.

The Jagdfliegers tended to focus their attacks on the low Group, in the most forward formation of 3 Groups.


RAF74 Buzzsaw



Message Edited on 10/08/0306:24PM by RAF74BuzzsawXO

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 07:23 PM
Salute

Here is a view from afar of a 3 Group, 54 plane Wing as it approaches target:

http://www.384thbg.iwarp.com/images/cVaporTrailsToGermany32.jpg


Another view:

http://www.384thbg.iwarp.com/images/cB17Formation2_28.jpg


Mustang escort criss crosses over B-17 formation:

http://www.384thbg.iwarp.com/images/c390thContrails47.jpg


Entering Flak area:

http://www.384thbg.iwarp.com/images/c390thWing27.jpg


View of a single Group, having taken casualties:

http://www.384thbg.iwarp.com/images/cB17sAboveClouds38.jpg


Dropping bombs:

http://www.384thbg.iwarp.com/images/c457th23297075DropBombs38.jpg


Here is a view of a Wing as it leaves the Bomb point. Some of the aircraft have been shot down, and some are slightly out of position due to flak or fighters.

http://www.384thbg.iwarp.com/images/cHeavyFlak&VaporTrails44.jpg



The air battles over Germany during 1943-1944 were the greatest in the history of the world, and were extraordinarily intense and violent.

Both sides displayed amazing bravery and skill.


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XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 12:31 PM
hmmmm; thanks for the info. everyone.

Great pictures Buzzsaw.

So, is it within technical capacity of FB to enable a flight of, say, 16 B17s (when published) in a (roughly) historical formation, rather than in 4 groups of bombers all at more or less same altitude and each in finger 4 as is currently the case?

I'm mainly interested to see whether something approaching the defensive fire cover of box formation can be recreated.

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XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 04:56 PM
It is possible to place, almost http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif 40 bombers on a good PC, in a perfect box formation with variation by altitude within squadrons and between squadrons. I'd say the pics look very similar, but I am not an objective observer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Finger 4 is not a problem if you make 3 planes the main construction element.

Can't say more now.

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 05:55 PM
It would be better to have some kind of tool (button) for creating formation types; something like 4 buttons on the main object viewer that have dots so you can arrange the aircraft into preset formations.



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XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 06:21 PM
I have a really great B-17 Card form one of those promotional collectable folding card things, anyway, it has a great detailed diagram of the box formation, too bad I dont have a scanner.

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XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 07:28 PM
It would be nice to see a bomber squadron form exclusively for the B-17. They would really have to be a dedicated group with plenty of time for practice. Once their skills are honed, I can forsee coop misions created specifically for B-17 missions. Long ones. I also believe that their schedule will be booked for missions with other squadrons. Especially a P-51 squadron. Imagine the possibilities. Might even have to have AI handle the gunnery positions since there are only so many slots in HL. Something to think about. S!

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 05:35 PM
that would be cool (for those that like that kind of flying at least). Once you're trimmed up and in formation must be a bit....well, less than exciting. but each to their own.

But some low level bombing raids (cf. Operation Goodwood) over Normandy map would be really great (as escort or LW). I think those took place at heights realistic for FB too.

Loads of B17s in historic formation (more or less) would be great to see.

The option to change/specify formation before a QM or in FMB would be very good to have.

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