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Xiolablu3
03-20-2011, 09:54 AM
I recently got into a debate with a guy who was quoting htis order at me, I find it very difficult to believe that a blanket order went out to all LW fighter squadrons (including ME262's), that they should avoid the yak 3 at all costs.

I explained that it was probably a general memo advising the LW pilots to avoid close-in dogfights with the yak3, as they did with the Spitfire's in 1940 - dont turn with them, use the vertical - and not a complete 'run away' order, but he is adamant.

Does anyone have a complete translation of this supposed 'order' and any info about where it came from/who wrote it please?

I find it so difficult to believe that orders basically came from the high command to all fighter squadrons, to 'run away' (this is basically that they are saying) from any Yak3.

I find it much more likely that an order went out worded something like - ' Avoid turning combat with the Yak3 at low altitudes at all costs' and it is being misquoted.

Boosher
03-20-2011, 10:11 AM
I'm with you on this one Xiolablu, but I also wonder whether or not it was propaganda entirely.

Metatron_123
03-20-2011, 10:44 AM
The Soviets also supposedly tested Fw-190 Ds (without any boost) and concluded that it had some interesting features but was no match for either the Yak-3 or La-7. The omission of boost is very telling.

It's often hard to seperate reality from propaganda. I think in this case it's probably a combination of deliberate exaggeration for propaganda purposes, and perhaps a Luftwaffe order to avoid situations in which success was not guaranteed i.e turn fighting with Yaks at low altitude, remember this was late war and the Luftwaffe was overstretched to a point where it could not afford to waste fighters or pilots.

VW-IceFire
03-20-2011, 10:44 AM
Although oft repeated I don't actually believe this order was ever issued. It probably belongs in the realm of urban legend.

Someone did dig something up about it once. I don't remember what the result was.

I can understand the meaning to some extent and it's just was Xiola says. It's a general note to not dogfight with a Yak-3 just like the Flying Tigers were told to strictly avoid turn contests with Japanese fighters. But the Yak-3 isn't fast enough to pose total superiority over the late war German fighters. The Me262 remains in a league of it's own as well.

Bremspropeller
03-20-2011, 11:52 AM
German high-command forced old people and 16 year-olds to fight or be executed.
Believing they issued such an order would be schizophrenic - at least.

EDIT: I could imagine (read: be guessing) they'd recommend attacking IL-2 and other fighter-bombers first, before going for fighters.
That's just a feeling - maybe a misinterpretation or an urban myth alltogether.

Treetop64
03-20-2011, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I find it much more likely that an order went out worded something like - ' Avoid turning combat with the Yak3 at low altitudes at all costs' and it is being misquoted.

I agree. I've always found it extremely unlikely that the LW would be ordered to deliberately and completely avoid combat with a particular type of enemy aircraft under any circumstances, no matter how good the enemy aircraft may be. No such "order" ever came up for avoiding combat with the La-7s, and they were every bit as good - if not better - than even the Yak-3s.

Whether or not you engage in a fight, and how you prosecute the engagement once it's decided that there will be a fight, depends on the initial relative positions of the two opposing flights. If I'm in a flight of FW190s, and I spot a flight of Yak-3s below, it's a safe bet that we'll gonna peel off and scythe through them. Then, depending on how the the Yaks react, we either pull up to come back down for one more slice before we get the hell out of there, or we get the hell out of there right now.

Quotes, orders, or otherwise can easily get twisted and spun into something much more romantic and appealing if it suiting to do so. Much like the oft-repeated mistake of the P-47s being called the "Jug" because it's short for "Juggernaut", when in fact they were called that because they resembled milk jugs if stood on their noses (in the case of the early razorback P-47s).

LEBillfish
03-20-2011, 02:21 PM
32:7945 Auftrag vom Generalstab, Ostoberkommando zu aller Luftwaffe steuert:
Um die Sicherheit und die Empfindlichkeit aller Deutsch-Piloten zu versichern, sind sie von im Luftkampf mit weiblichen sowjetischen Piloten, besonders die besonders online sich engagieren Fliegen Yak ......, gegen Knochenhecht verboten.

????? 32:7945 ?? ???????????? ?????, ????????? ?????? ???????????? ? ???? ??????-????????? ????? ??????????:
??? ??????????? ???????????? ? ??????????????????? ???? ??????? ?????, ??? ????????? ?? ???????? ? ??? ??????? ? ???????? ?????????? ????????, ? ????????? ???? ??? ??????? ...... ???? ?????????? ??-????, ?????? ????-???.

32:7945 Order from General Staff, Eastern High Command to all Airforce pilots:
To Insure the safety and survivability of all German Pilots, they are forbidden from engaging in air combat with female Soviet pilots, particularly those flying Yaks......Most especially online, against Bill-fish.

....okay, that may all be a lie, yet I really rawk in a Yak1b http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

K2

JtD
03-20-2011, 03:01 PM
If you only go as far as wiki, the order was to avoid combat against Yak without oil cooler at altitudes below 5000m.

Which from my point of view is a tactically absolutely valid recommendation. In fact when flying online I try to completely avoid combat, and am looking to just shoot others down.

Treetop64
03-20-2011, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
....okay, that may all be a lie, yet I really rawk in a Yak1b http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

K2

Easy to see. The Yak-1B is a brilliant airplane, as long as you can shoot straight.

The Yak-B is arguably the most underrated and underused plane in the game, though some might complain that it's no good because it doesn't throw boulders and anvils at it's target.

Romanator21
03-20-2011, 03:30 PM
The Jak-1b is practically uber - it can hold its own with planes up to 1944.


If you only go as far as wiki, the order was to avoid combat against Yak without oil cooler at altitudes below 5000m.

Maybe such an order was given, but it's doubtful given that an oil cooler, or lack thereof would be nearly impossible to spot in an engagement.

Xiolablu3
03-20-2011, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
If you only go as far as wiki, the order was to avoid combat against Yak without oil cooler at altitudes below 5000m.

Which from my point of view is a tactically absolutely valid recommendation. In fact when flying online I try to completely avoid combat, and am looking to just shoot others down.

But the very act of shooting someone down is obviously 'combat'. At least in my opinion, so I am not sure I agree with your statement.

If you were to say 'turning combat' or dogfighting', then I would agree. But just 'avoid combat', means to disengage and run away to me.

Xiolablu3
03-20-2011, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Romanator21:
The Jak-1b is practically uber - it can hold its own with planes up to 1944.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If you only go as far as wiki, the order was to avoid combat against Yak without oil cooler at altitudes below 5000m.

Maybe such an order was given, but it's doubtful given that an oil cooler, or lack thereof would be nearly impossible to spot in an engagement. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I agree. Also I would like to go deeper than wiki, where did this order come from, who issued it, and what is the exact translation?

JtD
03-20-2011, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
But the very act of shooting someone down is obviously 'combat'. At least in my opinion, so I am not sure I agree with your statement.

Well, the order was given in German and English semantics don't mean a lot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif My interpretation is valid.


it's doubtful given that an oil cooler, or lack thereof would be nearly impossible to spot in an engagement.

How did the Germans find out about the Spitfire IX?

Metatron_123
03-20-2011, 04:47 PM
It has actually been said by Luftwaffe pilots that telling the difference between the mk V and the much more capable IX was difficult.

VW-IceFire
03-20-2011, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Romanator21:
The Jak-1b is practically uber - it can hold its own with planes up to 1944.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If you only go as far as wiki, the order was to avoid combat against Yak without oil cooler at altitudes below 5000m.

Maybe such an order was given, but it's doubtful given that an oil cooler, or lack thereof would be nearly impossible to spot in an engagement. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's fortunate because the Yak-1B was on the front lines up to middle or late 1944 alongside other models of Yak fighter.

Indeed my feeling is that if you're close enough to spot the oil cooler or lack thereof... then you're already in gun range http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
03-20-2011, 09:35 PM
Tell him to show a scan of the original document.

RSS-Martin
03-21-2011, 03:22 AM
LEBillfish


Posted Sun March 20 2011 13:21
32:7945 Auftrag vom Generalstab, Ostoberkommando zu aller Luftwaffe steuert:
Um die Sicherheit und die Empfindlichkeit aller Deutsch-Piloten zu versichern, sind sie von im Luftkampf mit weiblichen sowjetischen Piloten, besonders die besonders online sich engagieren Fliegen Yak ......, gegen Knochenhecht verboten.

????? 32:7945 ?? ???????????? ?????, ????????? ?????? ???????????? ? ???? ??????-????????? ????? ??????????:
??? ??????????? ???????????? ? ??????????????????? ???? ??????? ?????, ??? ????????? ?? ???????? ? ??? ??????? ? ???????? ?????????? ????????, ? ????????? ???? ??? ??????? ...... ???? ?????????? ??-????, ?????? ????-???.

32:7945 Order from General Staff, Eastern High Command to all Airforce pilots:
To Insure the safety and survivability of all German Pilots, they are forbidden from engaging in air combat with female Soviet pilots, particularly those flying Yaks......Most especially online, against Bill-fish.

....okay, that may all be a lie, yet I really rawk in a Yak1b Happy

K2

What kind of German is that supposed to be? Texan German? I am German but that pysdo German makes no sence at all.
That is as bad as pysdo English here:
I only understand railstation
Your English is under all pig
If you think, you can beat me over the ear, you are on the woodway
Now we sit quiete beautiful in the ink
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

LEBillfish
03-21-2011, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by RSS-Martin:
What kind of German is that supposed to be? Texan German? I am German but that pysdo German makes no sence at all.
That is as bad as pysdo English here:
I only understand railstation
Your English is under all pig
If you think, you can beat me over the ear, you are on the woodway
Now we sit quiete beautiful in the ink
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

Hey, don't whine to me, whine at Systran.....Just like most translators they translate everything from english to moron.

Heck, I recently found where a guy posted his fathers diary which ranged from combat in China, fighting in Manchuria and Nomohan, joining the Army Air Corps and all that took, then the 68th Sentai, New Guinea, Philippines, and finally to Japan as an instructor and eventually a Shinbu-tai unit.......A wealth of information, yet being in Japanese it takes using 3 translators to simply get a rough idea of what it all says.

That said looking over your posts, what sort of translator have you been using? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
<weg>

K2

RSS-Martin
03-21-2011, 06:03 AM
For German why would I use a translator?
Small tip in Germany they do not speak English but German....
The examples I had posted up above where what is called here Denglish, or you would call it Germish. Totally loony word for word translation, which brings out the most silly results.
Translating tools usually just give a rough idea what is writen, although often enough, it is totally mental what they spit out, and revials that some one does not know the language, but is trying to give the impression.
Also those tools foul up with sometimes the simpest expressions, that you really have to be lucky to make any sence out the jibberish they spit out.
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Comics/aetsch.gif

LEBillfish
03-21-2011, 09:20 AM
hehe....I'm just curious RSS-Martin, at what point did you think my original reply in this thread was anything but a joke, the german or russian text of no matter, the punchline in the english version?

Why I asked, what version of translator are you using (for your english) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

K2

RSS-Martin
03-21-2011, 09:50 AM
Yes I thought so you where pullig my leg a bit! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Well canīt say anything about the Russian text as I know no Russian. Although that is a bit of a shame as my mom comes from that part of the world. I donīt use a translation tool at all.....good I have been now a few years away from Canada, and at times I am a bit sloppy with the spelling..... http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Comics/bag.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
03-24-2011, 12:17 PM
And to think I always thought the thick hair on the Yak would allow it to perform just fine at high altitudes. In fact in it's home range of the Himalayas, they are often found above 5,000m

Just saying...

M_Gunz
03-24-2011, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
And to think I always thought the thick hair on the Yak would allow it to perform just fine at high altitudes. In fact in it's home range of the Himalayas, they are often found above 5,000m

Just saying...

Don't Yaks live of the steppes on Russia? Perhaps domesticated? Those steppes are high continental plateau?

stalkervision
03-24-2011, 03:01 PM
That German order is quoted in the book " The Blond Knight of Germany" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

butch2k
03-24-2011, 03:33 PM
????????????? ? ?????? ?? ????? ?????????? ???????? ?????? ??????: "???? ???????????? ?????? ??????: ? ?????????? ???? "??", ?? ???????? ????? ???????, ? ??? ?? ????????" [????, ?. 35, ??. 11287, ?. 2781, ?. 196]

butch2k
03-24-2011, 03:36 PM
From Stepanets book:
http://www.aviation.ru/book/Stepanets/stepyak9.txt

Badsight-
03-24-2011, 11:49 PM
ive forgotten the forum members name

he was always going on about the Me-109 & how it was better than history remembers it as

german (or austrian) lawyer whose father flew them (IIRC) & was always arguing the point with SkyChimp

he had a photocopy of it (or so he claimed)

Wildnoob
03-25-2011, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by butch2k:
????????????? ? ?????? ?? ????? ?????????? ???????? ?????? ??????: "???? ???????????? ?????? ??????: ? ?????????? ???? "??", ?? ???????? ????? ???????, ? ??? ?? ????????" [????, ?. 35, ??. 11287, ?. 2781, ?. 196]

Translated with a online translator:

The German pilot who has got lost and sat down in our territory has declared: " Our command has given the order: with planes of type " the Yak ", not having a mast of the aerial, in fight to not enter " [????, ?. 35, ??. 11287, ?. 2781, ?. 196]

-

Stalker, what does Hartmann says about this?

Frankly, I found hard to belive in such things coming from the Russians. Nothing against them, but their propaganda in military hardware is worst than the one from the American shows, because they are smart and try put a logic in it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif But really, I already read in a text for Soviet pilots something like: "the captured airman all recognized the superiority of our aircraft", and we are talking about the Yak-1/7 and La-5! Even being the most dangeours La-5FN, still the German planes could compete. And in my opinion, until the end of the war, even with the old non boosted G-6 and the Fw 190 A, the Germans could very well match the La-7, the Yak-3 and 9U. As Breams always says: "they are technologically advanced enough to deal with any fighter in the sky". I think the problem was the factual much growing performance of the Soviet types, their overwhelming numbers, lack of trained German pilots, fuel and control quality.

Wildnoob
03-25-2011, 07:49 AM
Ah, and just a bite of logic here:

The German pilots (as well as everybody else) were using energy tactics. The Yak-3 was very capable in the vertical in comparison with the previous Yaks, but still inferior to the La-7 and perhaps the La-5FN vertically. And was slower.
Considerating this, and the fact that in most times the victim only saw what hit it too late or never saw it in WWII air combat, the La-7 would be much more something to give an order to avoid. But again, this is contraditory, because in such scenario of superior tactical situation and pilot skill to perfom tactically well, the Germans would have as good chances as the Russians. And I fear the reality was just this. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

stalkervision
03-25-2011, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by butch2k:
????????????? ? ?????? ?? ????? ?????????? ???????? ?????? ??????: "???? ???????????? ?????? ??????: ? ?????????? ???? "??", ?? ???????? ????? ???????, ? ??? ?? ????????" [????, ?. 35, ??. 11287, ?. 2781, ?. 196]

Translated with a online translator:

The German pilot who has got lost and sat down in our territory has declared: " Our command has given the order: with planes of type " the Yak ", not having a mast of the aerial, in fight to not enter " [????, ?. 35, ??. 11287, ?. 2781, ?. 196]

-

Stalker, what does Hartmann says about this?

Frankly, I found hard to belive in such things coming from the Russians. Nothing against them, but their propaganda in military hardware is worst than the one from the American shows, because they are smart and try put a logic in it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif But really, I already read in a text for Soviet pilots something like: "the captured airman all recognized the superiority of our aircraft", and we are talking about the Yak-1/7 and La-5! Even being the most dangeours La-5FN, still the German planes could compete. And in my opinion, until the end of the war, even with the old non boosted G-6 and the Fw 190 A, the Germans could very well match the La-7, the Yak-3 and 9U. As Breams always says: "they are technologically advanced enough to deal with any fighter in the sky". I think the problem was the factual much growing performance of the Soviet types, their overwhelming numbers, lack of trained German pilots, fuel and control quality. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's in the book but I don't know if this info was quoted from Hartman directly W/N. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

M_Gunz
03-26-2011, 12:55 AM
Were there Yak 3's shot down by LW fighters? Past some date were there none? Let the numbers speak!

Bremspropeller
03-26-2011, 06:30 AM
Funny "order", as to when you're able to identify tha aerial/ cooler-intake, you're already in the fight http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

TS_Sancho
03-26-2011, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Funny "order", as to when you're able to identify tha aerial/ cooler-intake, you're already in the fight http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

My thoughts exactly Brems, a little common sense goes a long way putting this often quoted anecdote in perspective.

Xiolablu3
03-26-2011, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Badsight-:
ive forgotten the forum members name

he was always going on about the Me-109 & how it was better than history remembers it as

german (or austrian) lawyer whose father flew them (IIRC) & was always arguing the point with SkyChimp

he had a photocopy of it (or so he claimed)

Hey man, welcome back, not seen you post here for years. I remeber you as one of the old timers who was here when I joined years ago in 2003 (damn that sounds eons ago lol)

Xiolablu3
03-26-2011, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
German high-command forced old people and 16 year-olds to fight or be executed.
Believing they issued such an order would be schizophrenic - at least.

EDIT: I could imagine (read: be guessing) they'd recommend attacking IL-2 and other fighter-bombers first, before going for fighters.
That's just a feeling - maybe a misinterpretation or an urban myth alltogether.
Yeah, that sounds very plausible

eg.

A Luftwaffe order goes out to attack the bombers/IL2's and avoid the fighters where possible, concerning the yak 3, [our fighters can outrun it so] avoid combat with it altogther.[if possible]

ie. They are not a real danger if you dont engage them in a dogfight.


I know its a complete guess, but I cant imagine a regime that was commited to 'fight to the last man' was ordering its pilots to 'avoid combat' with anything. It sounds totally contrary to the 3rd Reichs policies.

Metatron_123
03-27-2011, 04:37 AM
It doesn't mean that by definition they'd be employing suicidal tactics, even the squadrons that were meant to crash their craft into the enemy were told to bale out whenever possible. I agree that it would make sense to attack the bombers as a higher priority, they posed the greatest threat to the troops, and the Russian fighters could be avoided because of their lower top speed/dive speed.

Kurfurst__
03-27-2011, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Hey man, welcome back, not seen you post here for years. I remeber you as one of the old timers who was here when I joined years ago in 2003 (damn that sounds eons ago lol)

LOL, we are the UBI generation. But certainly, this is kinda shocking, I've been on these forums for some 10+ years. Now that's some serious net community! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

horseback
03-27-2011, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
German high-command forced old people and 16 year-olds to fight or be executed.
Believing they issued such an order would be schizophrenic - at least.

EDIT: I could imagine (read: be guessing) they'd recommend attacking IL-2 and other fighter-bombers first, before going for fighters.
That's just a feeling - maybe a misinterpretation or an urban myth alltogether.
Yeah, that sounds very plausible

eg.

A Luftwaffe order goes out to attack the bombers/IL2's and avoid the fighters where possible, concerning the yak 3, [our fighters can outrun it so] avoid combat with it altogther.[if possible]

ie. They are not a real danger if you dont engage them in a dogfight.


I know its a complete guess, but I cant imagine a regime that was commited to 'fight to the last man' was ordering its pilots to 'avoid combat' with anything. It sounds totally contrary to the 3rd Reichs policies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, the LW did just that in the early days of the USAAF's bombing raids(most of 1943)--instead of kicking the fighter escorts' tails at every opportunity at a time when they easily could have, the German fighters dodged around trying to get to the bombers without engaging the fighter escort. Quite often, this led to not being able to destroy enemy bombers OR fighters.

It certainly led to the Americans developing, technology, skills and tactics that were spread to an ever growing number of fighter groups as 1944,the following year, wore on. As late as August of 1943, the USAAF's leadership, practically all dedicated to the daylight bombing campaign and 'precision bombing', was questioning the value of even having a fighter escort.

Had those three early fighter groups been regularly (instead of sporadically) getting trounced over France and Holland, one might argue that the Powers That Were would have decided to stop throwing good money after bad by ending or slowing the fighter buildup in the 8th AF.

I have long been of the opinion that if the Germans had handled USAAF fighter sweeps and escorts out of England more aggressively when they were technologically and tactically behind the LW, and more importantly, less numerous, they could have maintained control of the airspace over most of Europe far longer than they did.

Ultimately, the WWII air war was a fighter war, and by being passive at the time when they held a commanding lead, the German leadership did exactly the wrong thing at the critical moment.

cheers

horseback

Bremspropeller
03-27-2011, 04:01 PM
The german leadership has never quite understood what an important tool "Airpower" actualy was. To tjem, airpower was merely a means of streching artillery-range and backing that cpability up by fighters.
That's actually what most european air-forces thought was the principle idea behing airpower.

The failure of achieving aireal-superriority over England in 1940 (no tactics, no strategy and thus no hardware for doing so!) really throws it's shadows to the epic failure of later stages of the war.
The Luftwaffe has never quite understood the potential or need for interdiction (see Jabo-campaigns over Italy and France back to Germany by the allied air-forces, principally the 9th and 15th USAAF and 2nd TAF). The LW was all about CAS (and sometimes tender trials of what would have become an interdiction-role, had more important people actually payed attention).

Then again, I could see why the LW was concentrating on downing the bombers:
1) they just didn't have the numbers to go over England and shoot up any airfield and traffic-pattern with fighter-activity
2) they had very good success in shooting down unescorted bombers
3) they underestimated the USAAF's growing ability of putting more and more escort-fighters into the fight

I don't think there would have been a substantional change, had the concentrated on the fighters instead. The USAAF had all the cards at hand, and in the long run, they COULD play the time-aspect.
The LW was practically finished with a broken back by mid-44 - everything after that were just spasms of a dying body.

Badsight-
03-27-2011, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
LOL, we are the UBI generation. But certainly, this is kinda shocking, I've been on these forums for some 10+ years. Now that's some serious net community! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif hey there you are

i cant for the life of me remember your handel you had before that argument with gibbage over the flying wing

i thought it was you who said he had/seen a copy of the actual order

Metatron_123
03-27-2011, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Were there Yak 3's shot down by LW fighters? Past some date were there none? Let the numbers speak!

Here is a list of Luftwaffe claims for 1945, obviously a Yak-3 claim could easily be a Yak-9 and vise versa...

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/1945.html

Treetop64
03-27-2011, 11:23 PM
I'm sure there were some Yak-3s shot down by the LW, though perhaps not many.

Kurfurst__
04-02-2011, 04:00 AM
Originally posted by Badsight-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
LOL, we are the UBI generation. But certainly, this is kinda shocking, I've been on these forums for some 10+ years. Now that's some serious net community! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif hey there you are

i cant for the life of me remember your handel you had before that argument with gibbage over the flying wing

i thought it was you who said he had/seen a copy of the actual order </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

You got it almost right, but I am not Austrian/German, but Hungarian. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As for the Yak 3 "order", I don't really believe such existed.. never seen one myself, and I consider it more likely that it's some kind of exaggrevation by Soviet sources - perhaps there was some kind of unoffical rumor amongst LW fighter pilots that it's no good to get yourself sucked in with manauevrable Yakovlevs in turn fight, but I don't think there would be much to it. Generally the Germans avoided dogfights for practical reasons, as Hungarian pilot Tobak Tibor makes it clear in his book: they considered it a gallant, but unneccessarily dangerous way of air combat. They thought that air combat is basically ambushing the enemy, than disengage until a new opportunity arises.

As for German Yak 3 papers, I have one LW evaluation of Yak 3, and I believe it is the first such, from late December 1944.. the report makes it clear the aircraft is manouverable, with about 16 sec turn time, but makes no tactical suggestion as to avoid it etc. at all. And, given the date, it also creates doubts of the existence such allaged orders.. I fairly sure they had no solid info on this new fighter. The Yak 3 was a latecomer in the war.

Apart from that, I have very high regard for Yakovlev for what he achieved for airframe efficency, given the limited capacity of the engines he had to work with. I have seen a Yak 3 from close up, it is extremely clean, and good looking aircraft IMHO. Its major shortcoming was the workload it imposed on the pilot, and the limited range and ammunition. But a fantastic little fighter by any standard!

Bremspropeller
04-02-2011, 05:23 AM
Totally agree with you, Kurfy!
Couldn't have phrased the last part any better - one can't imagine what a beautiful little airplane that neat Yak is, untill one has actually seen it live and in colour! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif


You got it almost right, but I am not Austrian/German, but Hungarian.

So you're Austro-Hungarian then? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Kurfurst__
04-02-2011, 06:42 AM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:

So you're Austro-Hungarian then? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

LOL, you can say so... Viribus unitis FTW! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

M_Gunz
04-02-2011, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Metatron_123:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Were there Yak 3's shot down by LW fighters? Past some date were there none? Let the numbers speak!

Here is a list of Luftwaffe claims for 1945, obviously a Yak-3 claim could easily be a Yak-9 and vise versa...

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/1945.html </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was a rhetorical question. No doubt, answer was always yes. But thanks for a link for those in doubt!