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View Full Version : Oleg, please give us the same glass quality as the VVS fighters have.



XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 07:22 PM
Hi Oleg!


It was often posted, but nothing has changed since the first version of the 109's late canopy.


The problem is that the colour of the glass under ideal circumstances already is really dark grey (not clear).

You can clearly compare it to the clear front glass.


However, if the circumstances are different, the dark side-plexiglasses (which are also mounted on top) get spammed over by green texture-layers, which are virtually blinding, no way to track a "dot" on a similarly coloured surface.



http://members.lycos.co.uk/christiandrexler/bf109_late_glass.gif



I and many other pilots think that it is neither realistic for thin plexiglass to be so dark, nor is it correct to spam it all over with green textures.


Please give us clear glass in late style 109s, just as the other fighters as VVS or early 109s have.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 07:22 PM
Hi Oleg!


It was often posted, but nothing has changed since the first version of the 109's late canopy.


The problem is that the colour of the glass under ideal circumstances already is really dark grey (not clear).

You can clearly compare it to the clear front glass.


However, if the circumstances are different, the dark side-plexiglasses (which are also mounted on top) get spammed over by green texture-layers, which are virtually blinding, no way to track a "dot" on a similarly coloured surface.



http://members.lycos.co.uk/christiandrexler/bf109_late_glass.gif



I and many other pilots think that it is neither realistic for thin plexiglass to be so dark, nor is it correct to spam it all over with green textures.


Please give us clear glass in late style 109s, just as the other fighters as VVS or early 109s have.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 08:08 PM
Yes I agree here.

I mean its a nice detail, and one cannot argue that LW planes have gotten mayby even too much special attention in the early perioid of il2 development.

As plane count started to increase the details fell off. I would rather have no details like these at all or have em in all planes. It just gives couple planes in this game bad balance.

There is the late bf109 glass dirtyness and Yak9 really dark frontal armored glass. No doubtly these might be correct but there are many other planes where this kinda detail hasnt been modelled. Its just bit unfair I think.







Message Edited on 08/22/0309:09PM by alarmer

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 10:47 PM
i have to agree the 109s glass in a pain in the butt but those two pictures do not represent a correct example as they are from completely different alts, the VVs plane is at about 1000m and the 109 is at least 2500 plus who's to say the weather is the same too .

the green stuff on the 109s in a pain but not as bad as those screens suggest

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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 04:10 AM
Be careful of what you wish for. For instance, in the LaGG 3 series fighters, the plexiglas of the canopy was described as "opaque as bottle glass" and was often removed altogether. Plenty of photo's supporting this and it lowered the speed of the machine by 15 km/h.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 04:16 AM
IIRC, Soviet canopies were very poor quality. Many people assume the canopies on MiG-3s were removed for various reasons, but the real reason was becasue they were made of a cellulose material, like cellophane, that hazed and yellowed with age. Soviets pilots liked the high quality glass on lend-lease planes.

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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 04:56 AM
Agreed, either add those nasty details to all other planes subject to bad glass or give the 109's new canopy glass.

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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:30 AM
VVS vs LW cockpits

Its ironic and it shows some faulty thinking/modeling too.

The VVS a/c were generally known (supported by Soviet writing) for their bad quality plexiglas and general visibility.

The LW were known for the fact that although the views might have been restrictive by the framing the general quality of the material was free of optical distortion. The main mention of worsening quality is for late war armored glass that was of a "smokey" quality.

However if you look at old warbirds in musea one sees the yellowing plexiglass, which at 60 years old is deteriorating. This deteriorated state has been taken at face value and was modeled into the sim.

So now VVS a/c have Zeiss quality perfect clear, distortionless visibility and the LW a/c have their correct restrictions (and incorrect restrictions), their bad quality plexiglass and their late war a/c have no "smokey" armored glass. Almost faulty on all counts.

It would not have been a problem if design had been done in a similar way ACROSS THE BOARD, however yet again it was done in a way that can only be resumed to be arbitrary.

Give those MiG-3s and early LaGGs and Yaks a similar all round effect as the late 109s and you would be nearer the mark. That btw would not be a hard thing to do, but would require relatively little effort. nb. we are not discussion distortions, just the "dirt" layer.



Ruy "SPADES" Horta
http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta
-----------------------------
Il-2 - VEF JG 77
-----------------------------
'95-02 - WB Jagdgeschwader 53
'99-00 - DoA Jagdstaffel 18
-----------------------------
The rest is history...

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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 09:10 AM
it's more that some 109 types have that "dirty glass" than a "VVS vs LW" thing

take a 109E4 or the F2 or a FW190 and you'll have the feeling that there's nothing between the framing (unless you get a sun reflection).

it's more about the way the model is made. Personnally, I find it quite useful when flying with a locked target (it helps me to "feel" the motion of your aircraft during manouvers).

It would be nice to have it on ruyssian fighters too, but, it would mean reworking all 3D models (changing the type of surface) which is quite a lot of work for something that, overall, didn't stop all of us from enjoying this sim for two years now /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 01:17 PM
Not all the VVS canopy glass are clear as water, but somehow only the later added planes have bad quality glass.

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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 02:43 PM
Evidently they thought the best vvs fighters needed an extra insurance policy against the best L.W. fighters.The bogus pilot view in the FW,and the bogus glass in the 109.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 04:09 PM
evidently, the planes that were made first during IL2 development, were made simpler than the latest ones (more than 2 years separate the developement of various planes)

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:07 PM
TooCool_12f wrote:
- evidently, the planes that were made first during
- IL2 development, were made simpler than the latest
- ones (more than 2 years separate the developement of
- various planes)

That doesn't explain the choice in some types at all.

The late 109s were modeled after museum examples, and the 60 year old deteriorated material was modeled as new, a case of misunderstanding the visual "modern" evidence.

We do know that when those late war LW a/c were new ('45), they were described as having armored glass of lesser quality than earlier in the war - being of a smokey quality (darker), their optical quality was still FLAT panel. This does not include the blown plexiglass, which is not described as having bad or worse quality. Of course pre-ERLA on the 109 would be all flat panel.

Russian a/c were known as having bad quality canopies and windshields (can't discuss armored glass, since I don't know), which was optically bad to start with and tended to deteriorate very quickly (milky quality). Pilots opted to fight with open canopies for both visual and emergency reasons, they took the speed loss for granted since it was negligible at the speeds commonly flown in close dogfighting.

One could start a Fw 190-kind-of-thread on this topic and still not convince the developer if he chooses to ignore the issue, and personally I don't think it help pushing this case, so I won't. However just visiting a musuem DOES NOT PROOF anything, simply because it does not take into account the deterioration of ORIGINAL materials over those 60 years.

If you combine deterioration with lighting AND photographical effect, the results can be amazing, but hardly indicative of the materials when they were new. Which leaves original reports and other accounts.

1C has made such a big set of a/c (continually growing) that they choose not to address old art. Wise or not that's up to them, but in certain cases a small revision would do miracles.

Ruy "SPADES" Horta
http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta
-----------------------------
Il-2 - VEF JG 77
-----------------------------
'95-02 - WB Jagdgeschwader 53
'99-00 - DoA Jagdstaffel 18
-----------------------------
The rest is history...

http:\\www.xs4all.nl\~rhorta\brother.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:21 PM
TheRealMatrix wrote:
- Hi Oleg!
-
-
- It was often posted, but nothing has changed since
- the first version of the 109's late canopy.
-
-
- The problem is that the colour of the glass under
- ideal circumstances already is really dark grey (not
- clear).
-
- You can clearly compare it to the clear front glass.
-
-
- However, if the circumstances are different, the
- dark side-plexiglasses (which are also mounted on
- top) get spammed over by green texture-layers, which
- are virtually blinding, no way to track a "dot" on a
- similarly coloured surface.

I think that everyone knows that near the end of the war the Lw was short on supplys, fuel, oil, parts and WINDEX GLASS CLEANER! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 04:19 AM
go check la5n - I think you'll see it's not clear?

S!
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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 07:50 PM
Recon_609IAP wrote:
- go check la5n - I think you'll see it's not clear?
-
- S!
- 609IAP_Recon


It is not like dry air, but it never gets spammed with green textures, nor is it that dark as is the Plexiglass of late 109s (and this "late" begins end of 1943!).


The developer tried to model a kind of "visible glass", which they obviously achieved well with e.g. La5FN, but they spoiled visibility all over in "Erla" 109 canopies.


Any comment from 1C:Maddox games?

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:11 AM
i think in toca race driver or sumin u had a windscreen
from inboard it was fing awful, u tried to get rid of the damn thing, cos then it was clear /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
murky glass is damn annoying...
cant say ive felt it a issue tho

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 03:59 PM
This topic needs a bumb da bumb